So is socialism in schools good? Everyone here rails against it....are teachers over-worked here and not in Finland? There is so much double talk and bullsh.it here I'm not sure who I should hate or support....lol
Finland is the model we should support?....is Manlicher OK with this new campfire directive?
Finland isn't liberal but the US is?....along with the "liberal mandates"?
I think it is more a factor of the students and the national culture than it is the specific system of education. I would think that their students would do well with our system and many of our students would do poorly with their system.
edit: That is certainly not to say that our system is very good.
Of course educating the way Finland (and Canada) does it takes a lot of money.
Teachers (if a society values them) have to paid well enough that really qualified people will be lining up to compete for high paying jobs.
Now...if you don't think it's worth getting really highly qualified people to teach your kids - cheap out on the schools - and the teachers working inside - and hope for a miracle.
My take: what worked for students in the 20th century, namely warehousing them in central locations and spoon feeding them all a standardized curriculum at a predetermined rate of advancement may not be right for the 21st century with the internet and instant access to information.
As fewer and fewer students are able to even graduate high school, I believe we are long overdue for a change.
Schools in Finland are teaching a relatively homogeneous population that comes from a culture that values education.
U.S. schools are teaching a hodgepodge of students from various backgrounds, many of which don't value education and some of which have active disdain for education, considering it going against their race to pursue an education.
Say what you want, but the most important indicator of school quality is the background of the students, not the teachers. U.S. schools from good areas with low populations of blacks and latinos are as good or better than any in the world. Schools with high "ethnic" populations can be as bad as any in sub-saharan africa.
You can have the best teachers in the world and they can't get through to a student who has been raised in a home of a crack whore mother with a steady stream of "baby daddies" coming through the door.
What does not add up? Our system is quite poor and tries to bring everybody down to a low level rather than trying to encourage excellence. However, those who seek excellence can still find it easily. My contention is that our society encourages mediocrity while the other society hold success in high regard. I certainly do agree that teaching should be a more professionally demanding job than it has become.
What does not add up? Our system is quite poor and tries to bring everybody down to a low level rather than trying to encourage excellence. However, those who seek excellence can still find it easily. My contention is that our society encourages mediocrity while the other society hold success in high regard. I certainly do agree that teaching should be a more professionally demanding job than it has become.
+1
There is no pride for our country in our schools anymore.....it's just a thing....
Schools in Finland are teaching a relatively homogeneous population that comes from a culture that values education.
U.S. schools are teaching a hodgepodge of students from various backgrounds, many of which don't value education and some of which have active disdain for education, considering it going against their race to pursue an education.
Say what you want, but the most important indicator of school quality is the background of the students, not the teachers. U.S. schools from good areas with low populations of blacks and latinos are as good or better than any in the world. Schools with high "ethnic" populations can be as bad as any in sub-saharan africa.
You can have the best teachers in the world and they can't get through to a student who has been raised in a home of a crack whore mother with a steady stream of "baby daddies" coming through the door.
Yup! The old "you can lead a horse to water, buy you can't make him drink" saying describes it. Basically, the kids flat out do NOT work very hard, nor are they required to. Surprise - they don't learn very much. Of all the necessities of education, the greatest is desire.
I taught for 6 years. I subbed for 3 more. I would go to schools and give lessons their teachers left for me, and I would marvel at how easy they were. A lot of the time, the kids couldn't even do them. My friends have said that we are "dumbing down" our children to make them more controllable. Government ploy to retain control? I don't know.
If they want to improve, I'll tell you one thing. The unions have to go. Merit pay? You are paid for how many years you have in, and it varies from district to district. I got paid the same amount for teaching physics as the teacher down the hall that taught ESL. I have 30 kids in my classroom and she has 4. I've got lab equipment to set up and down, to maintain and inventory. I'm also in the classroom 2 hours more outside the school day to set up and take down. I'll tell you what, with options, someone who goes to school long enough to teach physics is going to explore other options. You are not getting the best and brightest to teach. They are going elsewhere. They say "those who can't do, teach."
Well, Finland can have the #1 ranking. They also have the #1 ranking for suicide rates.
My take on the article is that getting away from standardized testing the kids to death would be a start in the right direction. Someone stated that the Finns were a homogenous population and that is a big part of it.
Regardless of some people's opinions, the US government has gone a long way in creating this mess we are in. Too many standardized tests, watered down curriculum, overcrowded classes, multi-cutluralism, and treating teachers as inferiors will have that effect.
Test the kids from your average Christian School in America, and you will see that the kids stack up pretty well against anyone else in the world. Test kids from the ghetto inner city schools, and they probably won't compare favorably with Zaire.
Several interesting points from the referenced portrayal:
1. "Compared with other systems, they rarely take exams or do homework until they are well into their teens." And yet, we have the "National Standards of Learning" program signed into law in 2002, designed to measure progress.
2. "There is only one mandatory standardized test in Finland, taken when children are 16." The US is measures driven; tests are regularly given to all grades. It will be difficult to changer this mind-set.
3. "Science classes are capped at 16 students so that they may perform practical experiments every class." Small classes mean more teachers; this costs money and the US wants to reduce government budgets.
4. "93 percent of Finns graduate from high school." Finland is a homogenous society with no political extremes arguing competing ideologies. Finland is more socialistic than the US and the nations is universally more liberal than the US.
5. "Finland has the same amount of teachers as New York City, but far fewer students." High governmental costs for smaller classes.
6. "However, high school teachers with 15 years of experience make 102 percent of what other college graduates make." and "In the US, this figure is 62%." Many are decrying the high cost of education in the US. Education is a labor-intensive enterprise and we need not cut, not increase, public budgets.
7. "Teachers are effectively given the same status as doctors and lawyers." Unlike Finland, we don't give our teachers much respect - "Those that can't, teach".
8. "And despite the differences between Finland and the US, it easily beats countries with a similar demographic." This is the real crux of the presentation. Norway has parents that care about their kids and encourage children to study, unlike many here in the US. This is the less we need to understand.
Well, all I know is that the American educational system is failing many more students then it did not so long ago, and lots of them are the smartest kids.
Well, all I know is that the American educational system is failing many more students then it did not so long ago, and lots of them are the smartest kids.
thats the government schools, that we pay so damn much money for. Union run schools, for the most part, and set up to benefit union members, not students.
Let's add the next factor: in American education, our schools are required to educate every kid, even those who want no part of it and make no effort. Our schools are forced to teach to the lowest common denominator least they'll be charged with racism.
Try to enforce standards for performance, many of the urban schools fall short and its racism at work, so they claim.
Funny how my kids are well educated in Fulton County Schools. Our area has the highest test scores and place kids in the best Universities nationwide. The urban parts of the county fill UGA mostly through quotas, not merit. Same County curiculum, different students.
Then there is that whole "�No habla English!" BS.......
Of course educating the way Finland (and Canada) does it takes a lot of money.
Teachers (if a society values them) have to paid well enough that really qualified people will be lining up to compete for high paying jobs.
Now...if you don't think it's worth getting really highly qualified people to teach your kids - cheap out on the schools - and the teachers working inside - and hope for a miracle.
Well if we could get rid of the teachers unions than we could afford to pay teachers what they are worth.
1st-6th grade I went to a Catholic school. There every child went at there own pace. Kids that needed more help got it and those that didn't need as much were allowed to push ahead. In my 6th grade class we had kids duing 7th grade work.
I myself, due to family problems, didn't finish my 5th grade math book for that year. I didn't get held back or go to summer school, I just started the 5th grade book where I left off the year before. I finished it shortly after Christmas. I then started the 6th grade book and finished it before the majority of the class.
I got the help I needed when I needed it and then was allowed to do more.
When I got to public school in the 7th grade if you didn't keep up you fell behind and rarely got any extra help. If you were bored because it was too easy for you most times you stayed bored. Sometimes you were given the oppurtunity to go to an advanced class, but still had to go at the classes pace.
I wasn't speaking of our system, I was referring to that article. The numbers sound like an internet urban myth. Teachers there make $29k, while here $36k. Then after 15 years, they make a whole bunch more. No standards for teacher achievement, so how does their pay increase? Just for being there more years, or is there some way to reward the good ones. Don't tell me they are all good, that goes against human nature. Not every one that starts will end a fabulous teacher. 66% go to college, but 43% go to vocational schools. See what I mean about the math? If you call vocational school college, then only 23% actually go to a genuine college like we understand it. It's fine if they do that, but don't call vo-tech the same as an engineering or medical school. Teachers only spend only 4 hours a day in the classroom? That is not enough time to teach the kids more than they get here. If you have two teachers per class, then that doubles your cost for teachers. If you are not testing the kids, how do you know what they have learned? Just giving them information doesn't mean they actually know anything. I don't much doubt the culture has a great effect, as has been mentioned here, but to say their whole system is better then our best is not going to fly with me. The article is too full of positives and no negatives for me. It is not utopia. The overall average may be better, but get rid of the gov't and union garbage we have, and you will not beat it by much, if at all.
Familial and cultural breakdown (or "change") has led to a lower quality student in the classroom, primarily in the area of "classroom management."
Teachers are then required to teach the entire class to that lowest common denominator. Or system is currently not designed for excellence, but rather mediocrity at best.
Sadly, but obviously, this hurts the children at the bottom of the pile just as much as the top kids who are being held back. Wouldn't a child who clearly has no desire or aptitude for rigorous academic work be much more benefited by allowing them to pursue trades of interest, by which they will make a very good living and contribute much to our society, than to force them through the drudgery of something that they know already they will never learn or use?
It's pretty easy to see all of this by the completion of 8th grade at the latest. And trust me, it changes so little over time, all the way through college graduation, that our "higher" education system is headed very quickly down the same path. That is why a Bachelors degree is hardly worth anything anymore in the actual job market.
Say what you want about American education, but when the parents value it, the kids do well.
Here's a note from my 5th Graders school from Friday: (scores are percentiles)
News from Our Assistant Principal
Dear Families of Summit Hill,
In late October, our 3rd and 5th graders took the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS) assessment. The test is given in many states in America, and the results can help us understand and visualize where a student ranks among other students in the country. ITBS scores are coming home today, and our 3rd and 5th grade students did very well! As a county, Fulton County did well with respect to the National Average and our Summit Hill students did very well with respect to Fulton County!
Here at Summit Hill, our fifth grade students improved in Math and Language. Our third grade students improved in every category!! The grade level as a whole scored higher than any other elementary school in Fulton County in the subject of Reading and Language. They were the second highest in Math! This is a tribute to all of our students, teachers, and parents from the Summit Hill community! Good job, Huskies!
I lived in Mississippi [coast] for 22yrs -Crowhunter is right. Mix your kids in w/blacks and hispanics -and bye bye education.
My two brothers and a friend -all from a midwestern corn town couldn't believe how poorly educated the people around Biloxi, Ms. were. They rarely had any idea about anything pertaining to math -history -gov't etc.. Just a couple of weeks ago I was talking to a friends son -not sure of the topic -but I asked him if he [19yrs old] knew the pledge of allegiance -no -star spangled banner -no- ever read anything in the constitution -no- ever read a book -no --asked his dad and another guy -neither one knew any of these things either and neither had EVER read an entire book . Totally amazed me but not really having lived in the S.E. for many years. A friend who had went to school in n. California then Wyoming for 7-8-9th grade then to gulfpot, ms 10 11 12 -said his education stopped when he got to Ms. -said all the teachers did was try to control the blacks who constantly disrupted the class. That's why people there get little to no education --sorry geauxlsu -I know this hurts your feeling but you know i'm a racist since I tell the truth about things.. GO Finland ! and don't let any blacks/muslims around your kids..