Here's more on the same incident:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/13/local/la-me-0514-kern-beating-20130514

At what point, when his body goes limp, do you stop beating?

Just curious if the academy's teach that.

Have a few friends that live in the area, I sent them emails to see if they have more details.

a man is dead, and somebody is gonna get rich at the taxpayers expense. typical outcome in these type cases.

Good lord..


That chit just can't be allowed..

Toxicology tests are going to take 4 Months .... I call BS.... Murder charges should be on the table here.... I know nothing about that area of CA..... But it sounds like either these guys go to prison for a long time or there should be riots in the streets....

Maybe the powers that be are glad it was a White guy.... Because there are not any "community organizers" likely to take up this cause....

Rage is a terrible thing...

Stay out of CA.

Ain't that the same pic they used in homeless man that was beat to death?

Dink

Cops have become, by far, the greatest danger Americans face on a daily basis. There's far more to fear in an encounter with the police than with any sort of non-cop criminal. They act with the authority of the state, thus possess a high level of confidence in the rightness of their actions, which non-cop criminals do not, thus they will even murder you out in the open in full view of witnesses, and have no concerns about escaping the scene of the crime before the authorities arrive. That's what makes them so much more dangerous to our safety than are any sort of common thug.

That's what I thought also.
If the guy was dead on the road,why hook him up to anything for the ride?

John , the Mayor of New Bern just got arrested a week or so ago for DWI. He blew a 0.00 on the breathalyzer so they are doing a blood test looking for other substances. It is expected to take a year to a year and a half to get the blood test results.


Mike

A note to add ;

The local ER could probably do that blood test in less than an hour , after all they get people in there all the time that are ODing & they have to figure out what they are on quick.

The state is not to be trusted in such matters.

Agreed.

CA & North East Yankee cops should be working at Baskin Robbins, not in law enforcement.

If the video is true facts these cops are in deep [bleep]. They visited witness homes demanding cell phones....stupid move.

How much of this went on in the past, under the radar and before digital cameras were in most of the public's hands?

Rage and power have cost these officers dearly, it appears. If...a Big IF...all is as it seems now, there needs to be manslaughter convictions and careers ruined, and rightfully so.

We need to see whether this is properly and honestly investigated, then draw final conclusions.

I wonder if more questionable schit comes out of NH/VT or TN in regards to LEO issues. NO certainly isn't in the NE.......

George

+1000 Truer words ain't never been spoken!!!

Worked with a couple old school LA PD, couple that worked during the late 50's through the 70's. Back then this type of [bleep] was a hobby, one that had no consequences!

Phil

No doubt about it.

Having moved back out into the country where I belong it's a very different interaction between the Police and the Community. We wave at each other, shoot the breeze in the stores and are more than happy to help each other out if the need arises. Passing a Trooper heading back out of town the other day I smiled and waved.....so did he! In the city or suburbia that would'a been probable cause.

4-16 weeks is normal for for a tox work up depending what the the tests are. Blood alcohol is usually pretty quick a year and a half is rediculous. But timeframes can also depend on how busy a lab is and what lab is used. Our blood alcohol and basic narcotics screens are done at local hospitals. Pathology reports are done by thr state police crime lab or through large medical centers where the autopsies are performed


Real life isnt as quick as hollywood


TRH. I see your still mad that you failed your academy psych eval.

Folks tend to forget that the "good old days" really weren't. Never before have Peace Officers been more watched, better qualified, better trained, more educated, or more accountable than they are today....

but stuff like that doesnt play well into the MO around here.

Back in the area I came up it wasn't uncommon to read in the papers every now and then about an overzealous sheriff getting worked over with a baseball bat.

That psyche eval. doesn't seem to be working to well. Maybe a swat helmet and hitler stache, if they fit the candidate, then no hire.

Sorry, but I am calling B.S. on all this and the sketchy tale by the "witness" who is on felony probation for domestic violence. My money says the videos will tell a much different tale than our upstanding witnesses. Also remember that many officers now wear portable video/audio recorders to avoid just such accusations. Lets just sit back and watch before throwing 6 deputies, one sergeant and 2 Ca. Highway Patrol officers under the bus.

I believe you are correct there.

You want my cell phone? Bring a warrant.

Mark

It was.

To be sure there is more to come out. Still, why confiscate cell phones?

Say it the way of life in libturd states.

[/quote]To be sure there is more to come out. Still, why confiscate cell phones? [/quote]

According to the article, they had taken video with the phones and they were siezed (by warrant)as evidence.

LAPD - We'll treat you like a King.

[quote=Alamosa]LAPD - We'll treat you like a King. [/quote

Do you mean Rodney King?

To be sure there is more to come out. Still, why confiscate cell phones? [/quote]

According to the article, they had taken video with the phones and they were siezed (by warrant)as evidence. [/quote]


I guess those "officers" had their "portable video/audio recorders" turned off.

When the cops are certain he won't be able to accuse them... or... when their arms are tired.

some people don't need to be wearing badges.

Is this the photo they show for all beatings now? Does it even belong to any actual police beating?

I can't believe the media would mess with people like that....

Dink

His name was Kelly Thomas. He was Mentally ill. Fullerton CA Cops beat him to death as he called out to his father for help.

Even if you work in the same Profession , why would you condone this type of abuse and take up for fellow Police who would commit these type of crimes under the name of the Law? You are only hurting your Profession and not helping your cause . This is standard Germany Nazi Tactics 1940 happening in this country today. They need to build a New Prison just to house or incarcerate Corrupt Police Officers who abuse their power.

I don't condone any beating. The problem is how do you get eight guys on different departments all on the same page? Don't you think one would tell on his own?

What I don't condone is being manipulated by the media. Wasn't it nice how that pic got attached to a another "beating". I have my doubts if it goes with a beating at all. Makes a good story though.

If the media does a story on Obama being a good president you guys all are over it calling it lies (which it would be). If the media does a story that fits your agenda it's the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's funny that you allow yourself to be manipulated like that.

It's the "in" thing to hate cops and government workers. And since most people are followers its easy to get the ball rolling that way. It's sad that grown men can't step back from their agenda and say wait a minute. If they would use a pic from a different "beating" how much of he rest of the story is embellished.

Dink

Gee... I wonder why..

It isn't from some strange mass social mutation. It happened over the last 50 years, starting with the Viet Nam involvement and the subsequent protests and violence on the part of both sides.

Are you saying nobody got beat to death because they don't have a picture of the victim?

I remember Rodney King...a flawed man...a recidivist. When the riots were underway he uttered his simple, famous statement, that has been laughed at all these years but still rings in my ears when somebody says something like you just did.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Indeed, can't we? Evidently we keep answering that question negatively every day.

Apparently the police have the pictures under wraps.

It's many things but the economy has started this last round.

Dink

If the caller really wanted to send it to the media it would have taken seconds to email it to them.

I think someone is looking for their 15 minutes of fame.

If you get eight guys to agree to fishing on Saturday morning only five or six will show up. How do you get eight guys to agree to beat a guy to death for just laying in the street?

Dink

I believe you've been around this forum long enough to remember when this was posted. Obviously, you remember it from somewhere, because you said you did. Such denial does your credibility no good.

Here's a link to the story. 2nd degree murder trial for one or two of the "officers" to begin June 2013. They all should have been charged for aiding and abetting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

Here are more pictures:
https://www.google.com/search?q=kel...mp;ved=0CFsQsAQ&biw=1517&bih=889

I agree that this pic should not have been used, but the cornener wouldn't let the family see the body and the cops confiscated the camera phones of those who took pictures. Sounds like more of a wait a minute moment there to those not defending murder.

The story lost a lot of credibility when they posted the picture of Kelly Thomas with this text.

That does not mean there wasn't a lot of truth behind what happened.

I'll wait to get more facts before I jump onto any "side" of this discussion.

I've heard that the cops beat a guy to death for nothing, then they went back to the neighborhood and seized cell phones as evidence and won't return them, and all sorts of name calling, but not enough real facts from anywhere, including the media.

A man is dead. He was "in custody" according to the LE agency when it happened, he was struck repeatedly with batons by LEOs, and cell phones were seized and not returned.

Anybody have more facts than that? Not emotional outbursts, not opinions, but facts.

Ed

Not directed at any one poster in particular, but some of the responses to this crime leave me shaking my head in disbelief.

1-A man is beaten to death.
2-Witnesses saw cops beating him.
3-Cellphones containing pics and/or video of this event were confiscated and not returned.
4-The victim was not convicted of a heinous crime and sentenced to death by a court, he was killed.

Sure, there might be lots of details that are yet to come to light,but I'm at a loss, what facts are missing?

Give them each a police uniform.

I know that pic is attached to his story but does it go with his case? It look like it does but now another source has attached it to something else. I would think his (thomas) family's attorney would be all over someone else using that pic.

If they wanted to get those pics/videos to the media they could have. It takes mere seconds to email them somewhere else. That makes me think they are looking for the media to pay for them or they really don't have much content.

Dink

Exactly. Combine the mob mentality with the belief that one is acting with the shield of state authorization and presumption of legitimacy and that's all the explanation you need.

"Hell", just today an article in this mornings paper has Los Angeles mayor Antonio Villaralgosa cheering the formal end to a decade long agreement giving the federal government oversight of the Los Angeles Police Department that was triggered by a corruption scandal involving abusive officers....

U.S. District Judge Gary Allen Feess dismissed the final remnants of a consent decree on Wednesday, releasing the department from a transition agreement put in place in 2009 to ensure reforms that had been made were kept in place...

The city was forced into the consent decree in 2001 under the threat of federal lawsuits alleging a pattern of civil rights violations committed by police officers that went back decades!

The decree mandated more than 100 reforms and the appointment of an outside monitor.

Another words nothing has changed!


Phil

Police appear to be most dangerous to the public when gathered in numbers.

Same as the brothers. Proven again in New Orleans last week.

Laughin'...

I was hitting on a girl once and she asked what I did. I responded and she rolled her eyes. I asked her what her problem was and she said "Guys in law enforcement are like minorities, they're fine when they're alone and awful when they get around their group, or whatever."

That gave me a pretty good laugh.


Travis

She's right. It's a variation on the mob mentality that takes over, except on steroids due to the feeling of authority that's attached to it.

Stupid people are dangerous in large groups. It makes no difference what they do for a living. Cops are people,nothing more, I seem to have missed all this hate/fear/abuse/steal from the public training. I wonder if I just didn't get the memo.......
Patrick

I've had the same thought. Where are all the facts.

All we really know is:
1. 8 cops.
2. 1 dead guy beaten to a bloody pulp.
3. Witnesses harassed.

That's not all we know.

We know that 8 officers should be able to detain an unarmed man without killing him.

I don't know why we hash these things over and over. It's been decided here before. All cops are jack booted thugs that thrive on killing innocent people. Any single person on the Fire could beat the azz of any cop anywhere, anytime.

It's been settled. We all now know the truth.

Just like all people from the South are incestuous child rapists. All people from Ca are liberal socialists with hidden agendas to move to other states and fix them. All people from the Mid West stupid alcoholics that breed their daughters like cattle.

No further discussion necessary.

I always participate hoping that a tin foil hat member may have stroke...


And it's more fun than watching tv.

Dink

Did all eight cops beat on the dead guy, or were there eight cops there while the woman was on the phone to Dispatch? Did only one guy beat on him? Did all eight take turns?

If you've ever tried to hit someone while another person is fighting with them, you understand how difficult it really is to get a good strike in.

Why was ANYBODY beating on the guy?

How were witnesses harassed? Nasty phone calls? Threats of violence?

Were the cell phones seized pursuant to a warrant or just turned over when asked for? Were they turned over through coercion or willingly?

Those are the facts I'd like to have.

Ed

And my attorney will be present. I'm getting to where I trust very few, in my old age! Cops are way farther down the list, than they were when I was a kid - 50 years ago (unfortunately).

Mark

Thats right why bother with any further discussion...

Maybe my sarcasm hid the true meaning of the post. It's not that I condone illegal and inhumane behavior by anyone. I don't. Quite the opposite in fact. I'd be first in line to string them up in the town square. Literally. What I meant was to counter the posts that, once again, bash all cops in general. It's the same dang thing as saying all gun owners are violent people that intend to use their weapons for evil.

So lighten up, Francis.....

Oh, and IF they did beat this man to death, then yeah, we don't need to bother with any further discussion.... we need rope.

I understood your sarcasm perfectly and agreed. It seems to some here at the fire that all cops are guilty until proven innocent. I thought the constitution was suppose to work the same for everyone cops included.

Nobody calls me Francis everyone calls me Psyco...

Agreed again.

Cool. Maybe I mistook your response then. I'll take me own advice then, and lighten up. Lol

No harm no foul.

I get upset sometimes when all a guy hears is how horrible cops are. I know the good work my officers do with respect for the rights and property of citizens.

I am disheartened by what seems like an increase in these incidents, but again this is not my department or my officers.

You are correct in that assessment...time will tell the truth.

The actual problem at the present is not that there are too many bad apples. The actual problem is the position and the institution, itself, as it has evolved to exist in the US. There should be no such position as a police officer as currently constituted in the US. As it's currently constituted, it cannot help but result in the frequent abuse of the rights of citizens.

The disparity of force and state-sponsored authority, as between the police and the citizenry, is too great for any other outcome to result in the context of human nature. In other words, it would be the unusual human being indeed who was not corrupted by taking a post as a police officer as that position is currently constituted. Now add to that the factor that the very existence of such a position is bound to attract a high percentage of the very sort who'd be most likely to abuse the power, and you've got yourself a very toxic witch's brew indeed for a free republic.

TRH, if you could offer an alternative that would actually work, I'd love to hear it. Seriously.

And it would require some detail. We can't just go back to a town Marshall and his authorities to call up a posse.

Nor can we police ourselves. Been done and proven it's just as corrupt a system if not worse.

I agree that the job can attract the the type of person prone to corruption. But so does a lack of law enforcement.

So what's the solution?

Interesting that you ask my opinion as to alternatives while declaring said alternatives unworkable. They are not unworkable, but would require a total reversal of our society in so many ways as likely not to be practical. Thus the answer is that we're likely doomed to continue on our current path towards total despotic tyranny and collapse, i.e., what's proven to be unworkable is the system as currently constituted.

The problem we're facing is the consequence of ignoring the sage warning of the Founding Fathers about standing professional, internally deployed, armies in the service of the state, which is what our various police forces have essentially evolved into, particularly since the advent of the so called "war on drugs," and picking up a new head of steam since the so called "war on terror." What started out as agencies designed primarily to enforce the lawful orders of the courts has evolved into that very entity so feared by the Founders.

The Founders wanted the "muscle" of police work to be found among the armed citizenry, i.e., select non-professional volunteers serving their own communities, only receiving compensation for their actual expenses, serving under officers selected from among their own ranks, having no special privileges or immunities not equally possessed by any other citizen, called into service when needed by an elected sheriff, and then returning to their various occupations by which they make a living in their respective communities.

Just like Blazing Saddles.

TRH,


My question wasn't a set up or anything. I truly would like to know what you think a viable alternative is. So forget whatever I said about whichever solution not working. Give me what you believe the best alternative is and how you would implement it.

I find it interesting that instead of answering the question as to a solution, you just restated what you think the problem is.

The Founders wanted the "muscle" of police work to be found among the armed citizenry, i.e., select non-professional volunteers serving their own communities, only receiving compensation for their actual expenses, serving under officers selected from among their own ranks, having no special privileges or immunities not equally possessed by any other citizen, called into service when needed by an elected sheriff, and then returning to their various occupations by which they make a living in their respective communities.

I get that. And it sounds amazingly similar to a militia or State Military Reserve.

The question is this. How do you implement that in a city as large as New York? Or Houston? Or Miami? etc, etc, etc...

I'm not inherently opposed to that type of system. And I would love to go back to pure Constitutional law. But how would it work?

More importantly, in keeping with the theme of the thread, how do you ensure it would prevent corruption??

In my opinion, it's worse. I get paid an hourly wage and benefits to perform a service. If I didn't get paid, wouldn't the temptation to seek "compensation" elsewhere be greater?

And in the case of those who care little about monetary compensation, but thrive off the perception of power the position gives, what's the difference in whether I make money at it or volunteer? Isn't the chance of me being morally corrupt the same if not worse since I have no paycheck or retirement to lose?

One more question. I know you said it's probably not possible in our society now, but how would we go about implementing this system if we did try?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the founding fathers were a tad short sighted when they failed to recognize the potential for how large and populated our country would become.

TRH and Pira.
Very interesting discourse.
IMHO, too many laws, too many lawyers, too lenient prison system, too slow of a justice system, too many who game the system and suffer no apparent consequences. too many corrupt "public officials".

Question: is a professional police force worth the money we're paying them?
Too much, too little or just about right?
Is the use of the police to generate revenue for the municipality a proper use ?

The whole revenue thing has completely gotten out of control. It's what led to quotas. It wasn't that they were worried about what we were or were not doing. The city councels got to wondering where all the revenue was that should have been coming from tickets and ordinance enforcement. So they looked. And found that a majority of officers were not writing many tickets. This was throughout the 60's and 70's. Which led to quotas in the 80s and 90s. Then, in Ca at least, they were outlawed. So they came up with a new name.....performance goals. Our unions got rid of that too (one of the few things unions have done right.)

So now you just don't get the assignments you want or promoted or whatever if they don't see production out of you. Not everywhere. Mostly in smaller cities with less crime. In larger cities, you have traffic officers and regular officers (among others). Traffic guys will probabaly write the ticket. Patrol guys are usually using the stop to see if you have a warrant or something.

As for if we're worth what you're paying for, I don't know. I do know that since our wages and benefits have gone down, we don't get the quality applicants we used to. I'm part of the hiring and training process, and since the decline of the economy, our application numbers have skyrocketed, but the quality has gone down a lot. It's horrible.

Part of the problem where I work is that it's way overpriced. A lot of us cannot afford to live anywhere near where we work. The local population is either doing good, or failing miserably. Those doing good don't apply, those failing, aren't usually hireable for one reason or another. The qualified good applicants are leaving the state. Good for them, but we're screwed because of it.


So, that's a fraction of the equation I'm sure. But it's what I see. I work at a Sheriff's Office so I don't see the problems with quotas and such. We don't do a lot of tickets and no one cares. We're litterally too busy for it. Plus there's still a culture of "old Sheriff's" around here. We don't roll 10 deep on a call. Usually one or two. We don't look for reasons to arrest, we look for reasons not to. And we quite literally know all the bad guys in the county. Due to patrol, courts, and the jail. So were a tad more successful at resolving things on scene. Sometimes, an arrest is just what's gonna happen.

I agree that we have too many laws. Too many lawyers. The prison system is failed and overcrowded. There's one more part of the issue you missed though. And it's the worst. Judges. Judges, who I call magical fat creatures in black robes, think they are above the law. And mostly, they're right. There is simply ZERO accountability for a judge that doesn't follow the law. They go outside of it on a daily basis. Blatantly. And you can't sue them. You can complain, and have your complaint heard by........wait for it.......a judge.

Judges are worse than politicians in my mind. Because no one even recognizes that they are corrupt. On a national level, sometimes we talk about them. But that's it. Ask any guy who's been to divorce court or family court. The law simply don't matter. See it all the time. Even in criminal court.

So the question is still hanging out there. Hanging by a thread (pun intended...get it? ). What system would be better? And how, in this day and age, do you implement it???

My solution involves a fantasy where the citizens fix it by force. But I know it ain't gonna happen. So any real ideas?

Are the judges out there elected?

Yes and no. Typically they are elected by nonpartisan vote every six years. All judges are up for reelection every six years. No limits.

If a vacancy comes up between elections, one is appointed by the governor.

In 58 counties, we have more than 2000 judges. All are bar member lawyers. Must be by law.

There are no justice of the peace courts in Ca anymore. Since the mid 70s.

So to answer the unasked question, yes, we can "remove" them by vote. But there is still no real accountability for illegal behavior on the bench. And honestly, the judge vote is laughable. Most have no clue about the judges and vote for the Incumbent. Becoming a new judge is commonly achieved by appointment or election when running unopposed.

I do believe people should be required to have at least a 3rd grade level of understanding about government before they are allowed to vote.

That'll never happen. If it did, the Dems wouldn't have a chance.