I have always been a supporter of law enforcement at the city, county and state levels. They place their lives on the line every day in order to keep a relative sense of peace and order in our society. Without the police, we would be a nation of anarchists and criminals (other than the ones in Washington D.C.).

However, police are human and sinners and sometimes they act wrongfully and in the case of two Fort Worth, Texas police officers, an innocent man died.

Jerry Waller, 73 years young, and his wife Kathy had gone to bed Monday night like they always did. Shortly after midnight, they were woken by a neighbor�s burglar alarm and bright light. Like a good neighbor, Waller grabbed his handgun and went to his garage to investigate the alarm. Waller lives across the street from the where the alarm was sounding. He was still behind his own house when the next thing he knew, two rookie police officers had opened fire on him, shooting him 6 times in the chest. Waller was instantly killed.

Kathy Waller, the grieving widow, told the local news:

�I think the police made a terrible mistake.�

�Somebody just got a little trigger happy, and away they go.�
Cpl Tracey Knight of the Fort Worth Police Department defended the actions of the two officers by saying:

�He was armed with a handgun and officers feared for their safety. They felt threatened, and that�s when they shot him.�

�Officers did follow policies and procedures according to burglary alarm calls. Two officers were dispatched. Both were driving marked police cars. Both were in full police uniforms. They identified themselves as police officers. I don�t know what lead to this tragic event.�
The two police officers involved were both rookies with less than a year�s experience on the police force. According to the reports, the two officers have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.



Are we supposed to understand that proper police procedure is to shoot someone before talking to them or finding out who they are and what they�re doing? When did the two officers identify themselves � as they were shooting or before? They claimed they feared for their lives when they say Waller with his gun, but aren�t they supposed to try to capture people alive if possible?

I don�t see anything about this incident that looks like proper police procedure. It looks like two rookie cops panicked and reacted to Jerry Waller before they thought about what they were doing. If that is the case, then neither of these two officers have any business being on the street in uniform.

If Jerry Waller had opened fire on an innocent person like the two officers did, he would be sitting in jail facing charges. From the evidence given so far, I believe these two officers should also be sitting in jail facing charges for the wrongful death of Jerry Waller. I�ll be curious to see what the police investigation turns up and how they will attempt to exonerate the two officers.

So there's an alarm going off at a house and a bright light -alarm light type deal.
A man across the street from the alarmed house is looking towards the possible crime scene from his own garage -two cops shoot him six times.
A 73 year old man at that.

Police departments REALLY need to change the way they choose these stupid azzwipes.
See a gun that's not in the hand of a comrade =start blasting away ----why not when your boss has your back.

Rest in Peace Jerry Waller -prayer for the family.

bea175, do you have a link to the article you posted? I'm not doubting what happened, I'm just curious where it came from.

It's a bad deal...

Cops respond to a burglary across the street and the old guy responds too...carrying his pistol. Word is, he refused to drop it and waved it around with two rookie cops drawn down on him.

A really bad deal.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/05/jerry_waller_a_72-year-old_gra.php

I'm certainly not forming any opinion on this deal. It does not look good for the Ft. Worth Police. Steve Hall, the Ft. Worth officer that made a statement, according to my wife, was a friend of my sons when they were young about 38 years ago. Steve made a statement on local TV a little earlier today.

I could see my Dad walking into something like that. Tragic.

Yeah, tragic for all concerned.

I guess a good lesson from this, don't go into a live, evolving situation waving a weapon. Keep it holstered or out of sight until time to fire it.

Those rookies panicked and took out the old man, who was just seeing what was happening at his neighbor's house.

Gotta be a better protocol for both sides, the neighbor and the police.

Like the Warden (actor, Strother Martin) said in the Cool Hand Luke movie, "What we have here is a failure to communicate".

DF

What the cops need to learn to do is back away and figure things out -not start shooting .

Maybe. I've almost killed several people in the same circumstances, but luckily they had their senses about them. I can imagine what would happen if the old fella was half blind, deaf, etc. Like I said...I could see my Dad in that situation.

Except its OUR job to be there not his, he should have put his weapon down. He placed himself in a bad situation. Its a trajic trajic situation all around for ALL concerned. But until YOU have walked in our ahoes the best thing to do is STFU

Yup.

I'm not LEO baiting, but more and more it seems that...

Protect = protect my own ass first

Serve = Serve the self-serving government animal first

This has become the prevalent perception, for whatever reason.

Rule 1) You can't help anybody else if you're dead.

I'm certain that the old man was stupid enough to start waving a gun around when, thankfully, two of Ft Worths finest showed up to investigate the alarm- not. I guess if he had started shooting their direction, he would have been as stupid as them.

I am going to wait and see how this woks out. If the officers told him to put his gun down and he didn't put his hearing aids in or just did not understand them then I can see where the officers would have acted as they did.

Tragic all the way around. I am sure these two officers and not sleeping well just as the widow is.

Put yourself in the cops shoes. Respond to burglary alarm, find man in immediate vicinity( i believe he was in the yard), with a gun in his hand and you identify yourself and order him to put it down, now who knows. He may have been hard of hearing or disoriented who knows. Now you have ordered this armed man to drop his gun and he does not comply. If its me im not asking a third time

Prevalent perception in some circles, no doubt. But perception ain't always reality. Just saying.

Isn't self preservation the natural human condition?

Tragic? Of course. Understandable? Yes.

He was in his own driveway. Pay attention to detail.

You can't help the innocent neighbor if he's dead, either.

Nope some of these fools think we should let the bad guys shoot atbusbfirst then ask them if its ok to return fire

He could have helped himself,considering normal circumstances. If not normal circumstances, tragedies happen with no real fault.

Nope, not always for sure. I have to say that in my lifetime I've been seeing a lot more innocent people shot by LE. Maybe we're seeing more due to the internet and a much smaller world, where word about anything/everything gets out immediately, everywhere. That could lead to the perception.

I agree but to the failed cadets and beanie wienies here that jist isnt possible. Hollywood says so

The article does not say that........where did you get that info?

Is it fact or are you you stating a possible scenario?

MM

Like this 72 year old street thug?

Judging from the confines of a protected environment is the normal human condition, as well.

That wasn't an article, that was a blog.

By that reasoning, YOU have no right to make an observation that the donuts are greasy unless you have cooked in a donut shop. And cops should only be tried by a jury made up of cops.

THAT ridiculous assertion- that the taxpaying citizens have no right to criticize cops - loses LE more support on this forum than any other one thing.

The rookie cops got scared and shot the old man.

They had to be STUPID before they could be scared enough to start shooting. Our troops, involved in a war, are held to higher standard than THAT.

Only if we assume that the general public has the same right to shoot the police..

30 years ago 73 year old guys didn't get gunned down by the police and police weren't being shot at by 73 year old armed guys just checking stuff out.

So cops can shoot anyone with a firearm? Hell, I've been in combat zones with more strict ROE.

No. I feel terrible for that mannand his family. As well as those officers
I am talkingbdirectlybabout persons here such as TRH and others who i seriously doubt have ever had tonpoint a loaded weapon at another human being, yet think taking a life is some decision as easy as deciding what to put in your coffee. The first time i had to draw on a person i was left with a deep gut wrenching sick feeling afterwards. I couldnt imagine and hope to hell i never have to experience the aftermath of actually shooting someone. But hey. The campfire commandos inbthis thread seem to think its a walk in the park and all cops wanna do is shoot people

If someone accosts you and is holding a firearm and you draw and tell them to drop it and they dont what will YOU do

I think many believe LE is too quick to shoot. I wonder this myself a lot anymore.

I doubt that the old man accosted anyone. He might not hear well or got confused. I know at 66 my reactions to things like this are not nearly as quick as when I was in my 20's/30's.

Hand them a Tootsie Roll. Nobody can resist a Tootsie Roll and then we would be friends forever.

Also, I feel awfully bad for these young men. It will be with them forever and might ruin lives...theirs and those of the people who are close to them.

It's sad for everyone...tragic.

So he "Accosted" them now..?

I can see 95% of the folks on this forum doing exactly what this old man did, being neighborly.

More than likely, he was trying to tell the cops he lived in the house behind the driveway in which he was standing when the cops felt "threatened" and ended his life.

OK, but nonetheless, where did LT get his info?

From the officers? Witness report? Conjecture?

I would surely not expect the officers to say anything less as there would have to be some justification......would you?

MM

I can see 95% of the folks on this forum doing exactly what this old man did
==========

Really? I see less than one-half of one percent doing such a thing.

I want nothing to do with the police, for any reason. I wasn't brought up like that, but circumstances and experience have taught me that the police are a threat, they are not my friends.

That's not said to gratuitously insult all police, it's just a matter of fact statement. All of the normal mitigating circumstances apply - there are good and bad police just as there are good and bad in every walk of life. Two of the nicest, friendliest men I ever met were retired law enforcement. The two biggest hoodlums and bullies I knew growing up both became police officers.

All the times I've gone to the police for help or interacted in a non-threatening neutral situation I've been cursed at and threatened to have "my f*cking ass thrown in jail". My wife was told she would have her "f*cking ass thrown in jail" for asking if she could pet a police officer's horse at a family oriented community event, this was in front of her 7 year old daughter. (Boise River Fest for those that remember it). "You lay a f*cking finger on this horse and I'll throw your f*cking ass in jail for obstructing a police officer." I can remember that exactly. It's amazing how consistently all of them used that exact phrase.

Interestingly enough, the two times I've been stopped for traffic violations the policemen were as professional as you could want.

But be that as it may, I want nothing to do with them. I absolutely will not go out of my way to help one and I will absolutely not go to one for help unless the law or the insurance company forces me to do so to report a property crime.

I understand that the police don't know me from the most violent crook in the world, and by unfortunate experience I have learned that I will be treated as if I am a violent criminal first and a citizen asking for help later. Maybe. Or I could just be treated like a lowlife even after I am identified as a harmless citizen.

I have learned to see all law enforcement officers as threats, not as friends, and that's just the way it is. I don't curse a rattlesnake for striking at me, it's just the nature of a snake, but I avoid them if at all possible. That pretty well sums up my feelings about police.

Good luck to those on the job, I sincerely hope you stay safe, and may our paths never cross for any reason whatsoever. I don't doubt that you wish the same about me.

I think they realized they effed up pretty bad.

I think they realized they effed up pretty bad.
================

Nice spin but I simply feel they realized they took another life.

Accosted was a poor choice. How about encountered in a high intensity situation


Regardless. The proper way for him to have handled this is that he shoukd have putbhis weapon down. That woukd have deescalated the situation considerably. Then he could have explained what he was doing

Another perspective...

Dallas Morning News...[/color][/b]




The family of a 72-year-old man shot and killed Tuesday by Fort Worth patrol officers is disputing the Police Department�s version of the incident.

Jerry Waller died of multiple gunshot wounds around 1 a.m. Tuesday at his home in the 400 block of Havenwood Lane North near Woodhaven Country Club in southwest Fort Worth.

His death was ruled a homicide by the Tarrant County medical examiner�s office.

Fort Worth police have said two patrol officers were responding to a burglar alarm at a home across the street from the Wallers.

While investigating the incident, the uniformed officers encountered an armed man and opened fire because they �feared for their safety,� according to a police statement.

Police told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram that the officers encountered Waller �at the back of his house near the garage and driveway.�

[b]But family members say Waller was killed in his garage.

�We are deeply troubled by the Police Department misrepresenting details of the incident,� said Waller�s daughter, Angie, at a news conference Wednesday afternoon in front of her parents� two-story brick home.

She said the family is �shocked and deeply saddened� by her father�s untimely death �in the privacy of his own home.�

She said her father heard a noise behind his house and went to investigate, grabbing his gun for protection.

While no one in the family witnessed the shooting, his body was found �inside his own garage,� said Angie Waller, reading from a prepared statement.

�We were disturbed by suggestions that police may have felt threatened by a man in his own garage faced with unknown trespassers wielding flashlights,� she said.

[color:#FF0000]The medical examiner�s office listed the garage as Waller�s place of death.

The Waller family is calling for an independent investigation into the shooting.

The Fort Worth Police Department didn�t return phone calls Wednesday, and details of the incident remained sketchy. WFAA-TV (Channel 8) said police identified the officers as R.A. Hoeppner and B.B. Hanlon.

The officers involved in the shooting, who have been placed on administrative leave during the police investigation, have been on the job less than a year.

They were seen �sobbing uncontrollably� after the shooting, according to one witness report.

Waller�s widow, Kathy, told Channel 8 that she was awakened by her dog barking and flashing lights around 1 a.m.

�He would give you the shirt off his back,� Kathy Waller said of her husband of 46 years. She called the officers �trigger-happy.�

Jerry Waller had four children and six grandchildren. He was a successful businessman who operated a truck tire dealership, his family said.

�My dad was one of the happiest people I�ve ever known,� Angie Waller said. �He was a loving father and grandfather, and we�re all going to miss him terribly.�

Says nothing about him "waving the gun around & refusing to put it down".

If in fact he was inside his garage, as the article does say, that ain't a good sign..........

MM

His body was in the garage not outside.
Area is $750,000 and up homes near a country club north FW.
Officers had 6 months under their belts. Two rookies responded.
Only one side is going to give a report on what happened.
Police chief is a good guy, doing his best to clean up the dept. Has fired 4 or 5 officers that were caught DWI in personal autos. Doesn't wait for DWI case to process in the court system if the internal investigation shows officer was drunk, he fires them. Of course they use the Leo's lawyers to fight for there jobs and sue.

FW will pay and keep it quite if they can. Depends on what law is in place when the time comes to pay up.

Pat, this could be me just as it could be your Dad. I'm very hard of hearing and sure don't wake up quick like.

What have I learned, drop the gun on concrete if I have too.

Your post is right on the money, Jim.

I guess we make up the half a percent Issac claims would act as the old man did.

There are some details not being presented here. The man was not in his driveway, but inside his garage. His garage, as shown on local news, faces AWAY from the street, therefor the LEO's had to be in the man's backyard, not across the street at the address of the alarm. Why were the LEO's where they were when they(supposedly only one officer shot all shots) shot this man?

Maybe they heard something across the street? Maybe the man's garage light came on, and they circled his house to get a better look? We just don't know right now, how this tragedy came to pass, but I think the Fort Worth Police Department has one hell of an uphill battle to fight now.

Gentlemen,
I have wondered how I would handle a situation involving LE or a call when LE is on the way since that I carry (legally). Many times the local Sheriff's Deputies have responded to alarms at my business over the past 35 years. All of the deputies know me and know what I drive and that I will be the one responding along with them.
Under those circumstances when I arrive at the scene usually very early in the morning officers are there already I leave my firearm locked in the consol. If I am the first one there I will get out with my firearm holstered, do a cursory outside inspection (broken windows. car present, people, etc) and wait on them.
If it were a situation where LE was responding to a call to a neighbors and I wasn't sure who was responding I think a guy has to be real careful so that he is not confused with the perpetrator of a crime.
Doesn't appear all the facts are in on the Ft Worth incident. Very tragic. Carrying I believe requires a lot of thought and more than just training at the range burning powder.
Hard to tell for sure what happened exactly in the case in question. Thoughts and prayers for the family of and the man who lost his life and for those officers who have to live with what happened regardless of the outcome of the subsequent investigation.

Dave

I know.

ouch

Cops carry firearms for many yrs without the chance of ever using them, so when the opportunity presents itself they react to quickly in many cases. Sorta like a sportsman hunting 2-3 seasons without seeing a buck......finger can get very itchy for some folks including cops.

Yep...seems they thought the crime crossed the street.

And how you feel isn't spin?

Tried to talk to me I guess.

That is the worst possible analogy.

Now THAT is utter BS. Most us are justified in killing people all the time, but we don't. Most of the time we're glad we didn't and some times we wish we had, but one thing every cop learns early is that killing people is not the way to stay employed.

Seems so, but to justify shooting a man in his own garage which faces away from the street, is going to be difficult at best.

IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK GOOD!!

==============

Don't despair. You're also one of the 70% who blather nonsensical conclusions while ignoring factual omissions. And sometimes actual facts themselves.

I've no doubt you've had run ins with the law. And before you get all discombobulated with trying to determine if my comment is a lie or not, it's not...I've really no doubt.

You can bet the FWPD is already playing the "what lie will fly" game.

The story will change multiple times if it follows the natural course of these things.

Seems so, but to justify shooting a man in his own garage which faces away from the street, is going to be difficult at best.

IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK GOOD!!
=============

Huh? How do you get there from what you know?

No. Your job is to go home safe no matter how many innocent people have to die. The old timer was going to the aid of his neighbor, the cops put him in a bad situation.

Just go home safe ahole and stfu.

Why do so many good people dispise cops? The world may never know.

WTF are you talking about? I live local, saw the man's house, and how it is layed out in relation to the street. The LEO's had to be in the man's backyard in order to shoot him standing inside his OWN garage.

Again WTF do you mean? IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK GOOD! Why is that statement hard for you to understand?!

Of course you have no doubt. I've posted about them on this forum over the years.

People like Jim, and me, developed our conclusions about cops thru actual experience.

You are so used to arguing with members here ,who, like you, have led a VERY sheltered life, that you just put everyone in that category.

You wouldn't take a judgeship because you couldn't afford the cut in pay, and yet you play judge for free on this forum.

Don't make sense to me.

I fully intend to go home safe tonight.


i have yet had anyone tell me what they would have done. Besides "back away". The fact is that whether he was going to help his neighbor, which in point of fact the updated article DOES NOT say, instead says that he heard a noise outside and went to check it out. Once they identified themselves he should have put his gun down.

Im curious to see where the evidence shows he was frat shot, it could be that he was shot outside his garage and that he died in is garage trying to get to help. I dont know because that information isnt available yet but it is a plausible theory

It's not hard to understand. What's hard to understand is how you drew such a foolish conclusion based upon those facts. Are you suggesting a armed burglar couldn't have been in the garage?

That's WTF I mean. Let me know if you need further help.

People like Jim, and me, developed our conclusions about cops thru actual experience.
==========

Oh, I see. You and Jim have some similar stories,I guess. TFF.

[color:#3333FF][b]404 N Havenwood Ln
Fort Worth, TX 76112[/b][/color]

Ohhh, I see, you are one of those azzholes. Gotcha! As you stated, "based upon those facts", IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK GOOD! Again, why is that statement so hard to understand? I know, it's not hard to understand how a man getting shot in his own garage, by "trained professionals" no less, JUST DOESNT LOOK GOOD, but you just want to argue.

Are you a Democrat by chance, or just a self righteous azzhole?

New boy strutting his feathers again. Stick around a while and get to know folks before you continue to embarrass yourself, junior.

Thanks. Pics of the house are in most of the new's stories.

If they were in his backyard waving flashlights around and the old man had taken both of 'em out with a 12 gauge, chances are a Ft Worth Grand Jury would have no-billed it.

You may be surprised by how long I've been reading this forum.

And junior? Really? You Internet bravato is certainly not intimidating to me.

Boy? You are a self righteous azzhole! Don't have to have a lot of post to spot the likes of people such as yourself.

Blow me, tard. And, it's bravado, dumbass.

Lots of questions here, but unfortunately, we are only going to hear from one side..........unless forensics can determine what really happened, that side's story will stand.

MM

Haha! So mature junior! How old are you? In years I mean.

Give it up, Ironman. To some folks you have to have 50000 posts before your opinion means anything. Failed logic to be sure.

Understood. Truth is, those with 50,000+ post either have no "real" life, or they are retired and been here a long time. Pretty sure I know which one Isaac is.

Not necessarily.

But 50,000 posts might also mean you're not just full of internet bravado and a self-righteous azzhole.....

Why would a man take a job he is scared to death of ? seems to me they needs to find other employment other than police work, these cops who are so afraid of their work , are more of a threat to the public that any help they have to offer .

Go back and read my post, then Sir Isaac's. I give respect where it is deserved. Not deserved in this case, and I could give a rats ass how many post anyone has. Doesn't make them Gods gift to anything, Internet included.

This one?

No, the previous ones. But if you want to brown nose Isaac, go for it. I mean, he does have 50,000+ post after all.

All I saw was two guys debating back and forth; then you got pissy.

Just the facts ma'am...

I certainly don't agree with him on this issue and his football predictions are folly, but he's not a self righteous azzhole or a Democrat, so you're on about equal footing.
ChillTFOut.

The rookies (and hopefully not the dept) going on a "suicide" by cop claim is a [bleep] cop out.

But to claim these guys had no right to be on this man's property is akin to saying the guy had no right to arm himself and be about his property...

This from a guy (assumed) who joined late last year and with ~160 posts. Run along, now, pilgrim.

No matter what excuse the Cops and their department comes up with , they shot the wrong person on his own property and someone will pay dearly once it becomes a civil suit in the court room. Even if these two cops don't go to jail , they should never be allowed to wear a badge again, just to much of this chit happening in this country today .

Ft Worth would have been better off if the homeowner had killed the two cops.

I never said they didn't belong on his property. As a matter of fact, I said maybe they heard something, or saw a light, and circled his house to investigate. In other words, giving the LEO's the benefit of doubt. As I stated, we just don't know, we weren't there.

Achadwick, I will be back at my house in Colorado in July, in order to pick up my new Kifaru pack, and scout for elk season. Maybe we can have a beer, pilgrim.

I would never go out side openly carrying a firearm in town.
Wayyyy too easy to get shot.
Neighbors alarm goes off,load my gun,call 911, STAY IN THE HOUSE and keep an eye out.

maybe the old man should have shot them both for impersonating police officers while robbing his neighbors home

Stay behind locked doors so the cops don't shoot you. Sorry state this country has got to, thanks largely in part to completely incompetent government employees, some with guns.

gitem12, it is obvious from your comments you shouldn't be trusted with a squirt gun, you're unfit.

Yeah, the guy shoulda stayed in his house/garage! Oh, wait......

Well, at least they didn't stomp his cat or shoot his dogs.

Not trying to start a controversy here but I will tell what was reported on the local news channels. The news folks may have the situation completely wrong or I may have not heard every nuance they were trying to communicate, but I have listed the �points� I got from local news.
1. The police officers responded to the wrong house

2. The garage of Mr. Waller faced the back of his property, away from the house that the burglar alarm was sounding and bright lights were shining

3. Mr. Waller opened his garage door with a .38 revolver in his hand

4. Mr. Waller was shot inside his garage, across the street from the house with the burglar alarm

5. Mr. Waller was shot, the news doesn�t say how many times, but there were 6 shots that were reported to be fired from one gun

6. The police officers had to go behind Mr. Waller�s house to find him in his garage across the street from the home with the burglar alarm going off.

7. The Fort Worth Police Department has decided to keep the investigation �in house� to determine fault in this case

From these pieces of reporting I don�t believe it will ever be a justified shooting, and of course I believe the Fort Worth Police Department should call in the Texas Rangers or other outside agency to investigate. I don�t doubt the same results will be found from any agency that investigates this tragedy, but the public would be much less concerned if another agency does the investigation and publishes their conclusion.

I agree they need to call in the Rangers on this. Too many problems with the shooting and it needs to be sorted out by an outside agency before it goes to the grand jury,

Old guy sees them walking around with guns but can't id them as cops and they throw down on him and he kills them. Same outcome? Y'all defending the old guy then? Just wonderin'...

I don't know what you're calling a "beanie weanie" but I know of no failed cadets on here. Not saying there aren't, but I don't know of any. I've also been on here a lot longer than you have and know the backstories or at least the ones floated, of many of the regulars. There's lots of shixt said about posters "painting with a broad brush" as far as law enforcement is concerned. I'm thinking you've listened to the wrong people and have some misperceptions that you're helping to further hopefully without knowing that you are.

If that story is acurate, I hope they file charges on these dumb [bleep]!

when a neighbor is in trouble, it's the neighbors job. you're a just a feel good for society.

Yep!
You sure as heck can bet this never would have happened if Barney Fife had been sent to investigate.

Way too many LEO apologizers here with the "tragic" "benefit of the doubt" attitude.

The axxetard that fired the fatal shots and killed this husband, father, grandfather, "citizen" is on "administrative leave"!?!?!

Both responders from when this "wrongful" kill(murder) took place should have been in front of IID answering questions and giving statements.
The shooter should not be a cop. Period.

Yes. I would be defending the old guy. It would be tragic either way.

One would hope that that anyone would look at the situation and make their best determination of the threat.

An old man with a handgun doesn't fit with the rest of the picture.

I can see a lot more ways this winds up with the old man dead and the cops blameless than I can with the unarmed Marine in Orange County. However, this did happen in Texas. Any LEO in Texas as opposed to say California has to assume everyone he meets is armed. Simply being armed is not reason enough to shoot someone. Nor is refusing to disarm instantly when ordered to do so. The hard part is judging when someone presents the possibility that if you don't act you might get to be dead.

Miles i agree. What isn't being said is whether the old man made some furtive movement. Ie: did he in advertantly move his gun towards them or make some other sudden move. Its a bad deal all the way around. But these people on here who brand cops as nothing kore than assasins are crazy. The simple answer is that the best thing he could have done woukd have been to put his weapon down and submitted to thenofficers until the situation was cleared up. Ive worked plain clothes where we have had situations with responding troopers thatbdont know us local guys that well to recognise us by sight alone. Ive had huns pointed at me the first thing i donis putnmybweapon down and place one hand on my head and then ID myself. The meer act of disarming myself goes along way to deescaltaing the situation

Ive also responded to burglar alarms where we have ended up on neighboring properties just due to circumstances involved. The theory here by many is that these cops were "looking to kill someone" is assenine. I dont know about Texas law, is there a dity to retreat statute? Up until a few years ago we had one. It basically said you had a duty to retreat to the safest place possible. If they do have a statute then he most certainly was in the legal wrong to go to the neighbor, while helping out is noble. Its best to be a professional witness.

The updated story states that he heard noises outside his home. Armed himself and went to check it out. I would do the same at my place. This is where things went bad and we dont know exactly what happened yet

Its also funny that the samebtype of people here who constantly blather thatbyou cantbtrust media to be unbiased are taking the news reports as gospel. Hypocrisy is wonderful


I treat everyone i deal with as being armed. Its a fact that there are atleast two guns present at every incident i am involved in. My duty weapon and back up gun. There are so many variables here that could have happened.

I will continue to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone LEO or not involved in a shooting like this until all facts are presented

Rest assured that these guys are under an internal investigation and that they were giving statements. Thats SOP. All administrative leave means is that they arent on patrlol or performing any other dept related function aside from cooperating with this investigation

It's easy to say he should have done this or that. Just like it's easy to say the cops should have done this or that.

The sad truth is that we'll probably never know what really happened. What exact set of circumstances led to at least one cop thinking he needed to shoot.

All we'll ever really know is a good man was killed. And probably killed by another good man. No one wins here.

You're exactly right. My point is that to many here the cops are just hired assasins

" I dont know about Texas law, is there a dity to retreat statute? Up until a few years ago we had one. It basically said you had a duty to retreat to the safest place possible."



For a cop, you display an alarming ignorance of the law in general.By your reasoning, a homeowner confronting an intruder in the ground floor of his home would be required to retreat to the upstairs portion.

ANY duty to retreat is generally satisfied once you reach the door to your house.

Texas law makes a homeowner- IN A RURAL AREA- safe from prosecution if he kills a person around his premises after dark. Granted that NE Ft Worth is not considered "rural" in a general sense, but if the homeowner in this case had shot the cops, a PA would know that any defense lawyer would bring that up at trial.

Isaac will be along to point out that I know NOTHING about Texas law.

Until there are personal repercussions, this will continue with shrugs and high fives, maybe even promotions and medals for the perps.

WRONG! It's just that our "benefit of the doubt" doesn't take us beyond where common sense sets a boundary.

History tells us this thread will settle into you, DINK, and issac continuing to defend the indefensible while our better LEO members [TLEE,ADDbunchanumbers, Lt Powell etal] have enough sense to stay off your bandwagon.

Defend the indefensible? You're a babbling idiot.

What is odd is that rather than see any amount of justice done, so many folks are hell bent on acquiring acquiescence from people on the [bleep] internet as opposed to, I don't know, perhaps a little community and local government proactivity.

Seems to me the amount of effort placed into dickering here in never-never land more appropriately placed into attending some meetings and delivering all the high powered bravado there might gain a little more personal satisfaction as opposed to giving a flying flip over what Bob, dink, myself, et al, might have to say.

The "cop's [bleep] up" threads never end any differently.

Mucho people pointing at a written story or video clip and saying "SEE?!?!" and others saying, "We don't really know all the info."

Any of you guys tired of that cycle yet?

And the 1st person to say that being active in the local government won't do any good, all I have to say is you get what your giving. Nothing.

After all, it's not like an attorney in Virginia, or a surveyor in North Carolina are going to change one Got-damn thing in Texas.

Enjoy.



eta:

But continue along anyway. I haven't seen bob say "Jam it, gas bag." in quite a while. Sooner or later, he's bound to get around to it, and it makes me laugh.

I have had a couple interactions with local LEOs in which I was armed. The guns were placed in plain sight, the LEOs were informed the guns were loaded and ready to go and instructed not to even touch them.

Like you, I recognize all LEOs are not necessarily to be trusted not to shoot you or even to exercise good judgement. That worries me greatly. At the precise point I can no longer trust an LEO not to shoot me unless I am doing something very wrong, the LEO has become as big a danger to himself as he is to me, because I feel absolutely no obligation to get shot by someone who's just not thinking,

That's exactly why it is critically important that any investigation of a shooting be utterly transparent, and held to the same standard as if the civilian had done the shooting. Far, far too often the process is neither transparent nor fair.

Without an absolutely clean and transparent process to investigate each and every instance of shot(s) fired without the built in bias a DA has, and with rigorous prosecution where appropriate there is no way in hell I would even consider an LEO job.

Sir, do you employ these arguments in the courtroom?

Only on my final trial.

I've had two cops on foot shine their flashlights on me in the dark, dunno what kind, the uber-bright LED sort I suppose.

Blinding, couldn't see anything else or any details of the men.

I surmised they were Cops because this was in a local park after dark where vandalism/drugs were a problem (I was walking my dogs). If I opened my garage door to that and it was dark, and if I was hard of hearing, 'spect I could be shot.

Birdwatcher

'bout an hour ago, I predicted your arrival AND your response. You can only wish you were that accurate with your sports predictions.

Back in the late 'seventies, I was coming into Ft Worth for a night at the White Elephant Saloon, and had reservations at a motel in case I didn't - or did - get "lucky". That detail is important because we didn't have CHL's then, but the Ruger Security Six in my glovebox was legal since I met the criteria for a "traveler".And I had a change of clothes hanging in plain sight.

Lake Worth PD had a portable stop sign that they moved from one spot to the other at an odd 3-way intersection and I ran it. The little city cop was on me in a heartbeat. I only made it two blocks past the intersection.

My proof of insurance was in the glovebox and I took the holstered Ruger out and laid it on the dashboard, with my back turned to the cop.

"HANDS ON YOUR HEAD OR I"LL BLOW YOU AWAY!"

That's what I heard. Looking around, the little bastard had his pistol pointed at me and was SHAKING.

Inside 5 minutes, there are 3 or 4 more cop cars and a wrecker and my car is going one way and I'm going the other. To the Lake Worth City jail where I spent the night.

The little SOB has my hat on his head, his britches stuffed in his boot tops, and is twirling my Ruger around on his trigger finger, with me marched along in front of him. The other cops got a kick out of that.

I couldn't bail myself out because Tarrant County claimed jurisdiction over all firearms crimes. Next morning, a Ft Worth detective came and got me to take me the County jail.

I have warm spot in my heart for him since he cuffed me in front instead of behind my back. But he repeated the name of a particular bail bondsman 3 or 4 times.

Now it was Sunday morning and if I wasn't bailed out by noon, I'd have to stay overnight and I had a big frac job set up for Mon. AM.

Two of my employees were at the Tarrant County jail with cash for bail but the jailer kept pushing me to get this bondsman, who just happened to be right there at the jail.

They finally relented and let my guys bail me out.

I hired a Ft Worth lawyer for 1200 bucks. When I went for my hearing, I stayed in the hallway while he went in and told the judge the deal. The judge dismissed the charges, but wouldn't let me go to Lake Worth to retrieve my Ruger.

I had to pay the lawyer another 150 bucks to go get it.

What I know about Tarrant County cops, I learned the hard way, you might say.

There was a time you were fun to argue with and had some witty responses. Lately you just act like an internet smartass.

And that's the problem, the expectation on the part of cops of receiving special treatment in such cases, i.e., the very worst they will ever expect is to lose their jobs, in terms of criminal charges always receiving the benefit of the doubt by the prosecutor's office, so in their interactions with the public they feel safe in tipping the scales in the direction of personal safety vs avoidance of harming innocent people or violating rights.

His kids said he was in fine health, strong and could hear fine.

You'll get what you give. Simple as that.

As to your interaction with those cops,assuming facts given as true, you were wronged.

When solid,irrefutable facts clearly demonstrate degrees of negligence committed by LE, I'll be all over them. Until those facts are realized and clearly established, I'll wait to render a final opinion.I'm weird that way,I guess.

You prefer the opposite approach.

Those same kids differed with the police original report when they claim he was killed in his garage, not his driveway.

Are they to be believed ?

Those kids witnessed nothing. What original report? Can you link it? Try and avoid giving me a reporter's slant. Give me the "original report" you speak of.

Since i dont live or work in texas how would i know what texas law would be. That was pretty well spelled out by my firsr statement...you know the one you quoted. Arent you the same wannabe jackoff who was unning around with your 4570 looking for an escaped con. Drooling over the chance to shoot him cause the sheriff said it woud be ok. And the reason our law was repealed is because it was felt too restrictive. Tge law stated that if you coukd retreat, even further into your own home you had that duty too

Now THIS response in more in character for you.

You seem to place a much higher burden of proof than common sense dictates when cop shootings are the topic.

TRH has shown up, so I'm going to run my trotlines. I just HATE to argue the same side as him on anything.

How many folks do you know who feel their version of "common sense" overcomes established fact? I can type out your reply for you, if you like.

That was me. But I made it clear from the outset that my purpose was to scare them away from my place, and I was successful in that. They sure as hell had nothing to fear from the cops unless they were stupid enough to go walking down a public road. They laid low less than a mile from my house for 3 days, stole a neighbor's pickup and made it to Fl.

There was no reason to believe they were armed or even dangerous. Ordinary citizens, like myself, don't shoot folks like that.

Our Sheriff was the dumbass for making the comment.

Added....... that Sheriff later left office under a heavy cloud of suspicion of financial wrongdoing. He wasn't prosecuted for it, so I don't know if the suspicion was justified , or not.

You are pretty selective in determining which "facts" qualify as "established".

One FACT for damn sure is that I saw just exactly as much of this particular shooting as you did.

One FACT for damn sure is that I saw just exactly as much of this particular shooting as you did.
==========

Precisely. It's the reason I called your conclusions foolish.

What would the reaction be if one of us shot someone six times in the chest?

Sad situation all the way around.

What seems to be an fine man with a business and family has been shot.

2 young men with their lives ahead of them have to carry a heavy burden the rest of their lives.

You obviously are asking what the legal ramifications would be.

Just as obviously, the answer would depend primarily on the circumstances of the shooting, followed closely by the locale of the shooting.

I suspect the divide would be, more or less, along a rural vs. urban line.

Like all normal folks, I do my best to avoid situations where I might need to shoot a man. Were I to fail in that respect, I hope like hell in occurs in a rural area, rather than an urban one.

Given the same set of circumstances, a ruling of "justifiable" is more nearly probable in a rural environment, in my opinion.

With the wind out of the SE at 30 mph, my trotlines will just have to wait.

Given your chosen field of endeavor, and given that the majority of cases involve a criminal who is guilty of something, and cops who behave properly, I can understand that you have a built-in skepticism when cop wrongdoing is alleged.

But the "majority of cases" is NOT what we discuss on the 'fire. It's the "man bites dog" that is worthy of discussion, not the other way around.

The simple fact that an innocent homeowner is shot down at his residence by cops leads only to one principal conclusion; SOMETHING went horribly wrong.

Yours, and Gitem's inclination is to suggest that the homeowner should have behaved differently, when it has not been established [and may never be, since dead men tell no tales] just exactly how he DID behave.

We do know how the cop [at least one] behaved. He shot the man 6 times.

Given only facts which are not in dispute, most of us can see ourselves behaving exactly as this homeowner did.

What's alarming to me is that some cops on here can see themselves behaving exactly as these cops did.

Threads like this will continue until one side changes.

And there's more of "us". We ain't likely to change.

Given only facts which are not in dispute, most of us can see ourselves behaving exactly as this homeowner did.

What's alarming to me is that some cops on here can see themselves behaving exactly as these cops did.

Threads like this will continue until one side changes.

And there's more of "us". We ain't likely to change.
===========

I will admit your hyperbolic assumptions are quite amusing to read.

Show me where I exaggerated in the post in question, or how the statements I made don't logically lead to the conclusion drawn.

.

It would be easier to point out the couple whereby you didn't do so. But, here's a portion of your very first reply.
======

"...The rookie cops got scared and shot the old man.

They had to be STUPID before they could be scared enough to start shooting..."

I guess that's your common sense in full swing!

Here's one of your next replies
====

You can bet the FWPD is already playing the "what lie will fly" game.

And another of your other common sense replies:
===========


Ft Worth would have been better off if the homeowner had killed the two cops.

===============

You tell me. Here's a partial transcript of wife's account.
=====

"...Kathy Waller said officers told her they thought the alarm call came from her residence.

Still in her bedroom, she heard yelling at about the same time she heard gunshots, she said.

Her husband, who had apparently just opened the garage door, was shot and killed by at least one officer.

"It happened in less than five minutes," she said.

She ran downstairs and saw her husband lying at the edge of their garage and driveway.

"I looked down and saw he was gone," she said.

At first, she said she thought her husband had been killed by a burglar..."


Lastly, reports out today that the homeowner did initially put his gun down and then picked it back up again. How that plays out remains to be seen, I guess.

Well said.

We know only what the media is telling us and we all should know the media is often just writing fiction to fill the pages. When we were in the spotlight and the papers were writing about us every day I learned so much about my family I never knew that I sometimes did not recognize who they were writing about. The half truths were outnumbered by the out and out lies. If media reports were admissible in court the prisons would be 98% innocent people.

The other conclusion I make from reading all these replies is I sure and glad I do not fer the police as much as I do bad guys. If I lived where I did fear the police I would move. Yes, I know there are bad officers, I just don't know any.

Don't know what all the facts are, but some of the talk here is bizarre...

Be a professional witness? Never interfere? Never step out of your house with a visible firearm? What a load of liberal crap.

Don't know what happened and why the guy didn't disarm. But it's a tragedy. But, quite frankly, short of 3rd party verified evidence coming out that he waved his gun in their direction I'm of the opinion those two rookies should be fired at a minimum. If they really went to the wrong address, negligent homicide definitely shouldn't be off the table since in any other profession if you screw up THAT badly in a way that gets somebody killed you'd be facing charges.

Those that do not read the paper are uninformed. Those that do read the paper are misinformed....Mark Twain.


Just because the paper now comes out in digital form does not make it any better.

The one member here that probably has the inside "scoop" tried to tell everyone early on but no one wants to believe it.

Dink

I read that.


Love the Mark Twain quote. Lived it once and once was way more than enough to teach me.

Oh crap! I guess I owe all the Democrats out there an apology. You see, I asked Isaac if he was a Democrat or just a self righteous azzhole. Well, turns out he is an attorney from northern Virginia, that is much, much worse!

Being unable to correctly assess a threat is stupidity. The fear is a response to that.

The rest of my statements compare very favorably to gems such as this:

"Except its OUR job to be there not his, he should have put his weapon down. He placed himself in a bad situation. Its a trajic trajic situation all around for ALL concerned. But until YOU have walked in our ahoes the best thing to do is STFU


Edited by gitem_12 (Yesterday at 08:27 PM)"

If the homeowner had shot the cops, the city would have lost whatever they had invested in the cops' training. But they wouldn't be facing a high dollar lawsuit.

How is THAT not a more favorable outcome for the city?

Don't be making inflammatory posts such as this about things happening in Ft Worth unless you want to be chastised by Judge issac.

Please tell us who this poster is, Dink, so we can discount everyone else.

I guess if no one will hire you and keep you busy in real life you can always be an internet attorney.

And what makes that a weong statement. At the time the report was that he was responding to an alarm at his neighbors house. That is not his job

Zing! Guess that explains the 51,599 post to this forum alone.

Actually, he has a very successful law practice.

He just, as far as I can recall, has never argued for the citizen when one is killed by cops.

That doesn't make him bad............... just wrong.

It was never said he was responding to the alarm.

And the source of that report was......... ?

See my "what lie will fly" comment.

I mis read the original article. My fault

I don't hate cops at all. And I didn't become a cop or join the military because of my eyes.

i see. it is for government employees to decide what an individual can and can not do inside their home.

That wasnt towards you. You seem to be fairly objective. Just as i have tried to be. I was replying to queerdog

Richard only in your case

It does not matter to you. If you read this thread you read it and discounted it.

Dink

That's funny. Just a minute ago you were able to decide for a deceased citizen in Texas.

Here's the problem, you are not at all qualified. Just like the 2 cops that killed this guy in his home. You're the most dangerous of idiots; the kind that is too stupid to know just how stupid you are.

Your spelling along with your reading comprehension confirms your 13 year old mentality...

There are, generally speaking, 2 reasons folks get into modern day police agencies.

1) Nerds that got beat up in school looking to avenge their lowly status behind the protection of a badge.
or
2) Criminals that are looking for legitimacy.

There are exceptions and some of them are on the campfire but you ain't one of them.

=================

You couldn't afford me screwball and I quit representing the unmotivated, malcontents of this country a good while ago. You're a moron of monumental proportions. I'll let Legal Aid address your full time life nightmares.

================

You still blathering your stupidity, pop-tart?

If only by accident, you got one thing right; I cannot afford stupidity and incompetence, even at a discount.

Bwahahahahha! Keyboard now covered in coffee.

I only read the first 3 pages and came to one conclusion. If the dead neighbour had stayed in his house and not tried to be a policeman or vigilante he would still be alive.

You either let the police do the policing or else go armed into the street and take your chances. From following the campfire I have the impression probably half of the posters here would be rushing out into the street with a gun in hand thus exposing themselves to the same fate.

It is one thing to talk about defending yourself in your own home and another to go out into a neighbourhood with a gun in your hand. I'm not always the strongest supporter of the police but in this case I think the guy brought it onto himself.

Jim

Oh Isaac, your immaturity level is entertaining, even for a lawyer!

Richard. You have no idea of my qualifications.


Asswit&eights. Your right im neither. Of those. I was pretty popular in school and not really a need. More of a jock. And i never started out trying to get into law enforcement. I originally went to college for a degree in biology. And went through the academy with my best friend after i lost my scholarship due to a knee injury. As for my spelling well. Im typing on a phone. Keep tryin buddy eventually someone will let you wear big boy pants

Jim. The man was technically within the confines of his own home, not out in the street being a vigilante. He saw flashlights in his back yard, and armed himself, and went to investigate. Beings how the SCOTUS has ruled that it is not the LEO's job to protect the citizenry of this country, but to uphold the law, it is not so far fetched that this man was doing exactly as you stated. Defending himself in his own home.

Sigh.. He didn't rush out into the neighborhood, he apparently was shot in his garage after opening the garage door. He wasn't even visible from the street or from his neighbor's house, the cops apparently responded to the wrong address and were in his back yard without cause.

Couldn't even read the original post where it said he was still behind his house?

IOW........... you were blowing smoke.

I have been in a similar situation where there was a burglary in progress.

I stayed in my house and let the police handle it.

What a disgusting mess! Why don't you all grow up and quit calling each other names. Most of us outgrew that in second grade.


Not one of us was there to see what really happened. All we have to go on is the media reports and they are the worst bunch of liars out there.

Step back from your keyboards and take a deep breath!

Agree on the name calling...

But there won't be any further reports except for whatever comes from the Fort Worth Police Department. I think there'd be a lot less dismay and worry if a 3rd party had been picked to do the investigation.

We could let Holder's bunch investigate it.

Or.... the Texas Rangers.[ but I think they have to be invited]

Bwahahahahha! laugh Keyboard and male blow up doll now covered in coffee.
==============

I'd hang on to the few idiots who think you make sense as well, were I you. DickAutistic is a real scrape from the bottom of the petri-dish, though.

Sometimes other agencies won't take other departments investigations.

There is no criminal intent in this shooting. The only thing to prove/defend against is a civil trial.

Dink

IOW........... you were blowing smoke.
-------------

With the baseless blather you've blown throughout this post, I'm surprised you felt comfortable going there.

It's in this thread. Read it. Maybe someone can help you sound out the words.

Dink

Considering it's Texas, I'd expect Holder's bunch to throw the book at 'em and probably say that Senator Cruz was the kingpin and Rick Perry pulled the trigger.

Rangers would be nice, I know they have to be invited but the days of departments investigating themselves should have gone by the wayside a LONG time ago. Not sure what the right group to do it would be since you need to keep politics and cronyism out of it.

I see we've reached the point of arguing about each other instead of about what happened.

�when I went out there, the place was totally dark," said Kathy Waller, the victim's wife. "All I could see were flashlights.�

She said her husband might have mistaken the officers for burglars, just as they apparently mistook him for a suspect.

�They just came down my driveway, flashing lights, and he thought it was burglars going after his car,� Mrs. Waller said Tuesday night.
==================

So, Mr. Waller did what most would do when he quickly realized it was cops who told him to drop his gun. I guess he thought those burglars only had flashlights.

You dumb-schit vigilantes who are armed and in the security of your homes and a landline, who then decide to go play the Lone Ranger without Tonto might learn a lesson here but, I really do doubt it. For a few of you morons though, I happily encourage you to go for it instead of just running your bloviating mouths about it.

I agree. Outside party could clear this all up without any childish name calling.

IOW........... you were blowing smoke. [/quote]

It's in this thread. Read it. Maybe someone can help you sound out the words.

Dink [/quote]

I did a search for "eyewitness" and it came up blank.

One lesson that might be appropriate would be to use a 12 ga pump and start shooting at the flashlights from INSIDE your house.

Better 12 judging than 6 carrying.

You and DINK carry on..... I'm gone for awhile.

You can always visit with Scott about artichokes.

Yep! I've spent a lot of time around D.C., and you definitely fit right in. Sorry to disappoint, but I need to get to driving home.

Oh, and Sir Isaac, let us know when your appearance on Judge Judy airs. I wouldn't want to miss that!

Yep! I've spent a lot of time around D.C.,
==========

I'm sure I put money in your cup.


I thought your mom controlled the remote.

One lesson that might be appropriate would be to use a 12 ga pump and start shooting at the flashlights from INSIDE your house.
==============

In Ft Worth? You Internet bad-asses sure do know how to stay alive.

It's in this thread. Read it. Maybe someone can help you sound out the words.

Dink [/quote]

I did a search for "eyewitness" and it came up blank.

[/quote]

I bet a lot of things come up blank for you. Of course what you can't find on the net you make up...

Dink

If I didn't think my neighbors were in personal danger, I'd stay inside and wait for cops. But I live somewhere that the response is a few minutes - unless there's an accident on the interstate. Lots of folks here don't live in urban areas with fast response.

And besides that is the general principal of it. Does the 2nd Amendment and castle doctrine mean nothing? If a man knows the cops don't have ANY REASON to be in his back yard and yet sees men with flashlights headed towards his cars he's not allowed to confront them? Just go cower in the basement and wait for the cops so he can file a report? Come on..

Manslaughter does not require criminal intent, just negligence.

If a man knows the cops don't have ANY REASON to be in his back yard and yet sees men with flashlights headed towards his cars he's not allowed to confront them?
===========

You mean a burglar has to stay at the residence he initially broke into until it's all over? The cop shouted for him to put down his gun. According to reports today, he did so and then went to pick it back up.

If the cops told him to put down his gun and, he either didn't or he did and picked it back up again, he became what is statistically known as a sure thing.

Why didn't the man or his wife call the cops? The man had a gun, was on his 2nd floor and had all the time in the world to attempt a police intervention. Instead, he chose to be a cowboy and ran into a bunch of other armed cowboys. You roll your way but I'll use my head and live to see my kids and grandkids another day.

The man is dead. If one can't learn the lesson from this dynamic, you're clouding the gene pool. (not you, Calhoun)

IF that is law in TX there is still no way to prove negligence.

They shot a man with a gun while checking a alarm. IF the article has any true facts I don't think you could ever get a grand jury to indict.

Dink

After 14 combined years on the old "Shooter's" board + the 24 Hour Campfire, I find this post by the known cop-hater, [bleep], to be the single most ignorant, outlandish piece of written garbage ever posted.

Congratulations you functional moron.

------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you could be a good citizen and stay in your house if you were to hear a young girl screaming help !

We don't know if the wife was calling 911. Doesn't mention it, but doesn't mean she wasn't. For all we know, he put the phone down when he saw guys headed towards his car so he could open the garage door and save his Mercedes. And if he put the gun down and then reached for it, the question is why? As you said, burglars can cross the street.. if he put the gun down it was probably because he thought they were cops. Was this an instance of one cop yelling "Put the gun down!" and the other yelling "Get down on the ground!" and he got shot as the first rookie thought he was picking the gun up but he was actually just laying down on the ground? There's instances of that happening..

Too many unknowns and too many questions.. again, the review should be done by a 3rd party and all facts given to the family and local prosecutor if necessary. Saying there will be a civil case and payout is one thing, but you can't bring back an innocent husband/father/grandfather who got 6 holes in his chest while standing in his garage and yet never fired a shot.

And cops should be wearing GoPro cameras that get turned on as soon as they are on a call, just like the dash cams on their cars.

=============

GFG!

Been the thought in my head as well during this discussion. Several houses around me have young girls/women in them all the time or granddaughters who visit. Buy girl scout cookies from them and pick them up off the ground when they crash their bikes. If the screaming starts or an alarm goes off, am I going to be able to live with myself if I stay safe and comfy at home while some girl I know is being raped? Think I'd rather be on the floor with 6 holes in my chest than live with the fact that I hid while that happened.

In this case, though, I think the guy knew his neighbor was gone so it would simply be a burglary. And he didn't rush over to his neighbor's, he seems to have stayed put until he saw people in his yard headed towards his property. Nebraska doesn't have a Castle Doctrine, so I have to admit I'd stay inside rather than risk jail or death over my F150 or Cherokee.

For all we know, he put the phone down when he saw guys headed towards his car so he could open the garage door and save his Mercedes
===============

Well, since the wife never mentioned it in her statement, I'll assume she didn't. And if he died because he THOUGHT someone might mess with his Mercedes, he put that car before his family. [bleep] up priorities have killed many a foolish man.

And he didn't rush over to his neighbor's, he seems to have stayed put until he saw people in his yard headed towards his property
==============

You mean uniformed cops in marked vehicles? Doesn't anyone look out their window anymore to at least get a [bleep] inkling of what might be going on?

As info only, here's an older copy of the FW police dept. leadership. Looks like one of the shooters has a Dad that in charge of the training dept. Wonder if either of the officers was a women. Both were said to be crying after the shoot.
Left hand column, bottom seem to be a
Capt. R. A. Hoeppner in charge of training.

http://fortworthwestcops.com/FORMS/OrgChart_030108.pdf

Marked vehicles that weren't visible from his back yard or the garage he was shot inside of? Or do you have information that he had first looked out the front of the house? Maybe his stairs face the back yard, and upon leaving the bedroom the first thing he saw was faceless, dark figures moving around his back yard shining flashlights on his vehicles?

Or maybe he did look out front. We don't know. Don't be so quick to convict without the facts.

I would not mind wearing a camera. Just as soon as everyone that works for, sells to or takes any tax payer money has to also.

I am tired of a cops word not being good enough unless it's backed up by video but everyone elses is golden.

Dink

Don't be so quick to convict without the facts.
==============

You must be kidding. It's what I've said from page one. Where did that silly comment come from?

At least he hasn't branded the widow as a criminal as he did when the Tucson SWAT TEAM killed HER husband.

Bad move on my part. This widow has just exactly as much evidence against her as Mrs. Guerno did.

He may do it yet.

You allergy to facts is understandable. I'd make up schit too if I had some strange need to hang in there...and it meant that much to me. Fortunately, it doesn't. You hang in there, though. Maybe you can post another article from a year ago while the rest of the world has well moved past it, with embarrassing revelations.

Your fishing excursions when the heat is on have become more frequent as of late. I don't see a change in that dynamic.

A cop's word should count exactly as much as anyone else's, but not one speck more. And when bias is made likely by the circumstances, that needs to subtract from the weight of a cop's word just as it would anyone else's.

I would not mind wearing a camera. Just as soon as everyone that works for, sells to or takes any tax payer money has to also.

I am tired of a cops word not being good enough unless it's backed up by video but everyone elses is golden.

Dink[/quote]

Cops have the power to take someone's life and claim immunity. This level of power requires a high level of checks and balances to insure it's not abused.

I think Cops should be required to be recorded during all public contact. Any intentional failure to do so should be a felony.

Supervisors should be required to review 30 contacts per officer per month and evaluate each contact with special attention following regulations, proper use of force, and respecting civil rights. Some of these reviews should take place in front of ALL supervisors in a department to insure consistent application of standards, and a Civilian review committee should be involved as well to insure the standards reflected the needs and wished of the public, and did not just turn into more "cops giving cops the benefit of the doubt" blue wall BS.

When cops know their every action is recorded, and subject to review, then we will see their behaviors start to change.

Let me assure you cops would prefer the cameras far more than the suspect citizenry would.

Having been a front and center witness to near 100 client statements followed by video review, the clients are at about 7% as far as accuracy is concerned.

I understand why lay persons think otherwise,however. And,they have my utmost thanks. God only knows what my income stream would be like if cops were savvy enough to show lock up nitwits the vid from the night before.

I would not mind wearing a camera. Just as soon as everyone that works for, sells to or takes any tax payer money has to also.

I am tired of a cops word not being good enough unless it's backed up by video but everyone elses is golden.

Dink [/quote]

In too many cases, like this one, the only witness other than the cop is dead.

So other cops from the same department investigate the shooting, interview the cop/shooter, and write a report that the shooting was justified.

BASED ON THE SHOOTER/COP'S WORDS.

Seems to me that a cop's word is a little too "good" for justice to ever prevail with any certainty.

BASED ON THE SHOOTER/COP'S WORDS.

Seems to me that a cop's word is a little too "good" for justice to ever prevail with any certainty.
==============

For some, certainty definitely doesn't fit their agenda.

Its very well possible that two 'rooks got "Hollywooded" into shooting a 73 year old Texas man.....YOU may not have.

If you've never been to Texas, maybe that doesn't cotton.

I don't believe anyone in this situation went out looking to gun down anyone. The onus however, always and should go with the badge. Again, IMO.

As I said before, 30 years ago, IMO, this FUBAR would have never happened (when there was more commonality both in LE AND in the public).

In this neck of the woods and in many parts (like Texas), the police command respect; but so do old men.


The world is changing....

This may shock you and DINK:

I am not in favor of any criminal charges being brought against the two rookie cops.

Their selection, or training, or both, is the root cause of this outrage. And it is an outrage, not a tragedy. A tornado is a tragedy.

Attending community meetings, supporting political candidates,etc are all vehicles for change. But they are slow and sometimes the change is in the wrong direction.

The most efficient, swiftest, and surest vehicle for change is a feeling of OUTRAGE among the general public. It brought an end to the Vietnam War, for instance.

Until people in the CJS become as outraged as the citizenry when policemen kill innocents, FOR WHATEVER REASON, the outrage will serve only to divide, not bring about change.

Did these two rookies know the difference between Busta Rhymes and a 73 year old Wheel Of Fortune crank, or was he wearing a mask and a ninja suit instead of a wife beater and sweatpants?

Was he wearing slippers?

Is he now the burglary suspect?

Watch it HawkI, Isaac will come back and call you a blathering idiot for saying such common sense things.

Yeah Hawk...he was a potential burglary suspect, of course. How can you possibly think a cop would not consider that?

Ironmouth...STFU and keep reading for a while. In the meanwhile, work on your reading comprehension.

Don't work yourself the way you're heading son. You won't like the fallout.

Did these two rookies know the difference between Busta Rhymes and a 73 year old Wheel Of Fortune crank
==============

You can run a check list if you like if someone points a gun at you but I think I'd have to work it later, after I survived.

You guys think these dynamics are like job interviews. Does it really matter how old a person is when his finger is on the trigger of a gun pointing in a direction, where you have one second to decide if you live or not?

Was he wearing slippers?
======

No, just a gun.

For everyone posting on this thread, are you supporting another Police Over Reaction, ending with another Law abiding Citizen in the morgue or are you condemning these action by people who are payed to protect and are so afraid they can't even take a second to separate the Bad Guys from the Good? It seem now with the Military Minded Police we have today, it is shoot first and then decide if you got the right one. I really believe it is the Military want to be in Law Enforcement that are most of the problem and the rest are the cowards wearing a Badge and scared of everything that moves . It seems it is always the Law Enforcement type on the forum who take up for this kind of Bullchit from today Police in this country. I would bet if this was your Dad , Brother , or Son they shot , you wouldn't be in such a hurry to take up for the Cops who did this. Until the Police have to face a jury for their action , nothing will change .

Reading comprehension? Please explain.

+ 1 gazillion

The USSC disagrees with you TRH.

amen and amen!!!!!! Le are being trained with a us and them mentality which causes these types of incidents. The citizens are guareented the right to bear arms in defence of life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness. LE has decideded if you are armed you are a bad guy.

They are trained to realize in a deadly force encounter they don't have a second to spare. That's why firearms training has evolved to stay current with court cases. Police shoot/don't shoot courses of fire are 20% shoot/80% don't shoot. When there is a gun visible, a gun the police saw and directed the old man to do something (I don't know what they directed him to do), the old man did something else, so the officer who fired the shots is going to say he was in imminent fear of serious bodily injury or death if he didn't stop the behavior the old man was displaying. Whether he was correct in his actions will at least be vetted by a Grand Jury.

and then som ++++++++++++++++

Police face juries frequently. Their every action or inaction is scrutinized with painstaking care. They face juries of citizens, not other cops. You don't hear of many high profile cases because of Randy Weaver, David Koresh, O.J. Simpson and Rodney King. The reason? The police have revised their training and honestly are doing a better job. If the officer in this case murdered the old man he will be facing a jury. Another fallacy bandied about on this board and this thread is the police investigate themselves. This is true in the sense that it is police investigators conducting the investigation, but the investigators are not from the officer's department; they are probably state police officers or even FBI.

A friend of mine was ferrying a brand new turbine engined ag-plane to its new owner when an instructor and pilot trainee from Shepard Air Base decided to "look him over". After the mid-air, the two Air Force pilots parachuted out safely.

My friend was killed, leaving a wife and two young daughters in Arkansas.

The final NTSB report declared that both planes were "where they were supposed to be". But Dierk was dead.

.Gov settled out of court 2 1/2 years later for 2 million dollars to the widow, and 750k to the owner of the ag-plane.

I expect that an investigation of this shooting will yield similar results. Three people, ALL where they are supposed to be, but one is dead.

And nothing will change in the FWPD.

Guess I should have smoked the kid....

Dynamics of law enforcement has gone from defense to offense. There are good reasons for this, but a 73 year old with a 38 in his peejays in his driveway/garage/ probably isn't one of them.

Clean shoot, let the boys get back to work finding the burglar, or did they get him?

Will the cops be subjected to a polygraph test ?

It appears cops are trained to start screaming get on the ground mf'er or I'll blow your eff'n head off -don't you eff'n move .
Then they proceed to put their knee into their subjects back with all their weight on the subject -then bend their arm like they are trying to dislocate it.
This man was in HIS garage -has probably seen this behavior and possibly thought -screw you -quit shining those lights in my face -and what the hell are you doing at my house.
Maybe lifted his gun hand up to block the light etc. --BANG x6 -that's very plausible .
Did he lay the gun down then go for his gun ? -doesn't sound real likely to me - "could have" or maybe that was fabricated by the two cops.

Internal investigation doesn't seem right -ever- about like letting Eric Holder investigate F&F.

Of coarse neither cop intended to kill the man on the way to the alarm -but as I stated in my first post -cops need to realize and be trained that - - -you could be at the wrong house - - - talk to people like they are human beings - - - take cover while talking to people - - -keep a very close eye on subject - - - if they come after you THEN be ready to shoot .
Instead of --garage door comes up --DROP THE GUN MF'R GET ON THE F'N GROUND - - -G U N --BOOM X6.

Two good friends of mine were going shooting about five years ago -one moved a gun from the front seat to the back seat of a jeep cherokee -mile down the road cops are heading to the WAR-ZONE .
Full on felony take down style stop -for putting a gun into the backseat that a SUPER CITIZEN [as they now call them] happened to see and exaggerate the story.Said they were aiming it at people.
They said these cops were yelling to the top of their lungs -keep your F'n hands where I can see them mf'r --etc . you guys know what i'm talking about -as far from being handled correctly as you can get.

Yep.

How do you know that cops did not do everything right? What if they had good reason to be where they were? What if the old man did put the gun down and then pick it back up?

Everyone talks about how scared the cops were but what about the old man? Was cool calm and collected? Was he afraid of getting in trouble and tried to pick up the gun to hide it?

I have no doubt there was a lot of fear in the situation and it went both ways. I just don't see where anyone can tell who done something wrong.

Dink

"I just don't see where anyone can tell who done something wrong."


An innocent man was shot on his property in his garage.

That's OK with you?

Cops have the power to take someone's life and claim immunity. This level of power requires a high level of checks and balances to insure it's not abused.

I think Cops should be required to be recorded during all public contact. Any intentional failure to do so should be a felony.

Supervisors should be required to review 30 contacts per officer per month and evaluate each contact with special attention following regulations, proper use of force, and respecting civil rights. Some of these reviews should take place in front of ALL supervisors in a department to insure consistent application of standards, and a Civilian review committee should be involved as well to insure the standards reflected the needs and wished of the public, and did not just turn into more "cops giving cops the benefit of the doubt" blue wall BS.

When cops know their every action is recorded, and subject to review, then we will see their behaviors start to change. [/quote]


I am all for that as long as it goes for anyone that works with or gets money/tax breaks. Any that gets a Goverment loan, school loan, ect.

Anyone can cause loss of life or injury so everyone should be watched and reviewed. Teachers, auto workers, doctors, construction workers all need to be watched and reviewed.

If a cops word is no better than anyone else's than anyone else is no better than a cop. Anyone that is not strictly in the private sector with no help from the Goverment should camera up.

It would stop all special breaks anyone would get from their job.

I really like this idea.

Dink

How do you know he did not point a gun at them?

Dink

Actually, I wouldn't mind having my word be equal to that of witnesses so long as my jury "peers" contained some cops or ex-cops to keep the playing field even. I mean why should a regular citizen without any experience or training in what I have to do for a living be allowed to judge my actions. Doesn't seem fair to me.


peer : noun

1. a person of the same legal status: a jury of one's peers.

2. a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.

3. something of equal worth or quality

Answer the question.

Lol at the high fives from the usual crowd of badge bunnies. They have no shame. The old [bleep] had it coming. Just ask 'em. Laffin.

The highlighted text is priceless and telling.

We know that you have no equals...

When cops kill an innocent homeowner at his home, SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME went horribly wrong. The fact that you can't use THAT as a starting point in your evaluation demonstrates just how out of touch with reality that you are.

"The old man was stupid" seems to be your starting point. The fact that he shot NO ONE is a clear indication that he placed a higher value on human life than the cops did.

Whether it was the ones who decided these two were suitable for police work, the ones who trained them, the ones who decided they were capable enough to patrol without an experienced cop along................ the possibilities for fault are practically limitless.

You're right. That didn't sound right. What I meant was simply a citizen/person/peer/juror should be able to fairly judge me and my actions.

Damn, Man.......... what you said and what you claim you meant are pretty much direct opposites.

Can't you see that?

Or... am I missing something?

Which is it, please.

See my post above

" citizen without any experience or training in what I have to do for a living be allowed to judge my actions........"

As of right now how do you know he was innocent.

All that anyone knows is a armed man was killed by police near the garage.

The old guy might have been reading the campfire and thought [bleep] those cops when they told him to drop his gun. He may have thought that it's was his house and he was mad they were on his grass. His last thought may have been what would Ace do....

Dink

Which one?

Ok, you cleared it up with your edit.

The post you thought didn't come out right is actually what you intended to say and we should disregard your attempt at clarification.

IOW..... you're back to being "special" again.

Got it.

How do you know he was innocent?

Cause crotchety old men don't exist?

Why would anyone in a million dollar neighbor hood go to their neighbors house because the alarm was going off? If they are being held hostage what are going to do for them? If they had their house damaged what are going to do for them? If there are three armed men in there stealing their chit what are going to do?

He may of had the best intentions or he may have been being nosey.

Dink

HE DIDN"T GO TO A NEIGHBOR"S HOUSE. HE NEVER LEFT HIS OWN PREMISES.

CAN'T YOU READ?

What on earth could he have been guilty of?

Dog,

Give up on him. He can't read or write.

At some point he left his residence. The cops did not go inside the house.

Dink

You asked me for a clarification and I gave it to you. Now you're telling me you know what I thinking ? Sounds judgmental.

First you have him going to a neighbor's house on a rescue mission.

Now you apparently don't know the difference between residence and premises.

The M. E. says he was killed IN HIS GARAGE.

The cops were in HIS backyard waving flashlights around.

None of THAT is in dispute.

Now,.... one more time..... WHAT COULD HE HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF THAT WARRANTED SHOOTING HIM 6 TIMES?

No, I'm just confused as to what you mean about juries and cops.

Your post #1 says one thing.

Your post no. 2 says the opposite.

When I asked for clarification, you repeat post #1.

So I take it that you mean you think it would be unfair for your jury to contain no cops.

Is that right?

The post you thought didn't come out right is actually what you intended to say and we should disregard your attempt at clarification.
===============

WGAF what you do with it.

WHAT COULD HE HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF THAT WARRANTED SHOOTING HIM 6 TIMES?
=====================

Are you being purposely obtuse or are you just incapable of thinking outside your very small box?

If he's pointing a gun at the police, knew they were police, he got what we would all suspect. (HIGHLY doubtful).

I'm pretty sure this guy didn't go from a quiet evening with his wife to "death by cop" or "kill the po-po" guy by grabbing a gun and stepping out to check on the ruckus about his garage or even his driveway.

I'm also sure those responding weren't out looking for a gun battle in suburbia; problem is, however they conveyed themselves, it wasn't obvious enough for some poor bastard in his driveway/garage.

This is usually fun but damn it's boring when you are involved.

What could have a man with a gun done to be shot AT six times?.....hmmmmmm.

Dink

That is correct.


peer : noun

1. a person of the same legal status: a jury of one's peers.

2. a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.

3. something of equal worth or quality

When I referred to the guy as an "innocent homeowner", DINK asked how I "knew he was innocent".

You just quoted my response to Dink.

Context matters.

OK

So you agree with me. Thanks

Guilt or innocence is what you brought up, DINK.

Guilt or innocence.

Repeat it to yourself slowly until you understand.

I agree you have a right to your opinion. I just couldn't figure out what it was.

Glad I was able to clear that up for you.

Was it ever reported if the code 3 lights or what ever lights they use on there scout cars down there were flashing when the officers arrived on scene?

If it was a home invasion (burglary with the residents home) then that qualifies as a true emergency and they should have activated all emergency equipment (red/blue strobes, strobing headlights, audible siren).

If it was a burglary of an empty residence then that is not an emergency, and the responding officers should not have used emergency equipment to lawfully violate the traffic code.

Theft of property is not an emergency; threat to life is an emergency.

Again, these rules evolved from court cases involving pursuits. Essentially, you can't run "code 3" unless the offender would constitute a continuing threat to the lives of other innocent people.

A LEO cannot pursue a violator or respond to a call utilizing emergency equipment unless he would be justified in shooting the offender.

Thanks for re-affirming this.

Little , if anything you post is about your actual ethics , or morality, is it ?

WTH, as long as you're having "Fun",......Right ?

GTC

He did, once,.......now reputed to be t$ts up.

.....I'm not real sure that's the case, and damn sure recognize the same uber-arrogant attitude.

"Regular Citizens" are lookin' like a little FED UP with this happy hose chit, moreso by the day.

GTC

At some point he left his residence. The cops did not go inside the house.

Dink

News reports say he was shot in his garage, which has the garage doors opening behind his house. News reports also say the garage door was opening at the time he was shot.

If we believe news reports then we have to conclude Mr. Waller never made it out of his garage that opened behind his house before he was shot dead by Fort Worth police officers.

Joel

Well, not really. LEO frequently "black out" a short distance from the address. Mostly so they don't present such an obvious target. Also, lights and sirens tend to dampen your senses when on scene. Need to be able to see and hear.

Yes,I guess you do have a right to check your property at night with a gun in your hand,while the cops are searching for a burglar next door.
exercising that right ,at that time,puts you at risk,no criminal intent on either side.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Widow-wants-answers-from-Fort-Worth-police-209278071.html

note the widows reference to "flashing lights".

in a rural setting,when the bear,skunk,raccoon, tips over your trash can?
or maybe strange noises?

sure.

In an urban setting,with the "flashing lights"visible?

I guess you have a right to,if you wish.

Back about seven years ago, I did just what this guy did. About 10:00 at night (come to think if it, it was likely later than that) the big oak on the lawn across the street fell, and it made a big noise. I had some remodeling materials in boxes in my car port (planning a new kitchen and bathroom) that would have been attractive to burglars, so that's what I suspected was going on. I grabbed a .45 and a flashlight and went out to investigate. As I was scanning the car port with the flashlight in my left hand held high and to the left - gun muzzle towards the ground and slightly forward held in my right hand, trigger finger straight, thumb on safety - I heard my neighbor shout out to me from the darkness behind me that it was the tree falling that made the noise.

In light of this thread, I'm happy it wasn't a cop across the street responding to a call about a noise reported by the folks who live there.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt for 17 years of service as a deputy sheriff in Brazos County, TX. The question posed was: did the police have their emergency equipment activated? A question meant to show the deceased didn't know they two officers were LEOs and thus he didn't want to relinquish his gun. Really a weak question as LEOs are trained to establish all within earshot that they are indeed LEOs if they have their weapons drawn and are covering a person they believe to be a suspect in a very serious offense, or a person that poses a threat to them.

Even the widow admits to hearing the shouting.

In Des Moines, they frequently run at high speeds with no lights/siren on at all. I was told it was by orders from the chief, Judy Bradshaw, who is a liberal lesbian woman. I find that extremely dangerous. It may have changed as I have not seen that for a while, but I did witness it several times, while on the street during the day.

"Fort Worth police said the shooter was one of their own.

Officers were responding to a burglar alarm off North Havenwood Lane when they ended up on the Waller's property.

Police documents indicate the officers were supposed to be responding to a home across the street.

Police spokeswoman Cpl. Tracey Knight wouldn't go into much detail about what led up to the shooting, saying only that "officers felt threatened" by Jerry Waller.

He was carrying a .38-caliber handgun, but police won't say if he pointed it at officers, or even if he ever left his own garage.

An investigation is ongoing"


Sounds like FWPD is all "lawyered up".

"officers felt threatened" by Jerry Waller."

That's it folks. Move along. Nothing to see here.

There are times that dictate a silent response. Typically we dont run code 2 or 3 to burglar alarms. Sometimes the homeowner/key holder will request a silent approach. Typically i dont even turn my E- lights on when attempting to make a traffic stop unless I A either really need to due to exigent circumstances or, extremely heavy traffic or I am close enough to the target vehicle to comduct the stops. Even with traddic lots of times i kist use the wigwags and Horn or quick wail of the siren. My experience is when you go hurling through cars with lightsnonnit makes other drivers panic and that causes potential for greater safety issues

"Mrs. Waller said she wasn't sure if her husband and police exchanged any words before police opened fire."

Oh. Ms. Waller must be very confused then.
====

Kathy Waller said she and her husband, Jerry, noticed bright lights from outside their bedroom window at about 1 a.m. Tuesday.

He grabbed a .38-caliber pistol and went outside to see what was going on.

"He probably thought it was a group of yuckos out there or something messing around," she said.

It was police responding to a burglar alarm, which wasn't at their house, but across the street.

"I'm just curious as hell how it happened," she said. "I heard he was shot six times in the chest by a Glock, I guess, or whatever the police use. I'm disgusted."

Still in her bedroom, she heard yelling at about the same time she heard gunshots, she said.

Her husband, who had apparently just opened the garage door, was shot and killed by at least one officer.

"It happened in less than five minutes," she said.

She ran downstairs and saw her husband lying at the edge of their garage and driveway.

You're not military, you are a civilian & you "report to" & are responsible to the public who pay your salary & that's something that you should never ever forget.

By your thinking, all engineers, for example, when on trial for something, should only be judged by their peers since LEO's sure as hell don't know anything about "engineering" or what they do do for a living.........same for any other jobs, accountants, lawyers, scientists, blah, blah, blah.

That has to be some of the most convoluted thinking I've heard here yet.

Fact of the matter is, what you do routinely is nothing really special for 99% of the time as evidenced by some of the cretins doing it; granted there are occasions when things might get a bit strained, but in reality & in the context of days work, that's not an everyday occurrence.

And this is not a condemnation of LEO's in general, just your way of thinking & that is exactly what is so damaging to LEO's in general........lots of good one, probably including you, just some like you, with a warped sense on your value, uniqueness,& position in society.

MM

Well said.

How do you translate "heard yelling" into the police identifying themselves?

Someone find out for me, were the Leo's female?
As stated far above, looks like one of the Leo's had a Dad who is the training boss for the FW Police Dept.
The area this happened, not much crime, easy shift is a great place to put two 6 month Leo's, one who has a Dad in dept to look after them.
The LEO'S will be cleared, FW will pay out money to the family of deceased person is my bet.

FW pays real easy.
Paid $400,000 to a female assistant DA cause she accused the DA of sexual misconduct or attitude. DA still has his job.
FW tried their best to keep the amount quite until freedom of info request made it to AG of TX and FW had to give the amount out to newspaper.

NO......... "Flashlights", not "flashing lights".

The cops were in his backyard with flashlights, across the street,NOT NEXT DOOR, from where they were supposed to be responding.

All this B.S. about him seeing the cop cars and "playing Lone Ranger" has ZERO basis in fact.

"Police officials said Tuesday it wasn�t clear how two responding officers � identified by police as Richard A. Hoeppner and Benjamin B. Hanlon � ended up at Waller�s house. They encountered him with a pistol inside or near his garage. One or both officers opened fire, hitting Waller multiple times.

Officials said the officers � both of whom graduated from the police academy last November � identified themselves to Waller, but felt threatened.

"When I went out there, the place was totally dark," said Kathy Waller, the victim's wife. "All I could see were flashlights.�

She said her husband might have mistaken the officers for burglars, just as they apparently mistook him for a suspect.

�They just came down my driveway, flashing lights, and he thought it was burglars going after his car,� Mrs. Waller said Tuesday night.

The family released a statement Wednesday that said they were "deeply troubled by the police department misrepresenting details of the incident in their interviews with the media," and that Jerry Waller's body was found in his own garage.

"We were disturbed by suggestions that police may have felt threatened by a man in his own garage faced with unknown trespassers wielding flashlights," the family's statement read. "We look forward to a full investigation of this terrible incident that will lead to meaningful steps to ensure that nothing like this will happen again."

How do you translate "heard yelling" into the police identifying themselves?
===============

Quite easily, actually.

To a hard-of-hearing old lady inside her house yelling could just as easily have been the dead guy yelling at the popo as it was the popo iding themeselves, or a myriad of other things. You know this of course. It sounds like you have a bias here.

So that takes care of the female angle.

It sounds like you have a bias here.
_________________________

Ask me if I care. Is the hard of hearing,old lady another one of your add-on falsehoods?

Where have I added on any falsehoods here or anywhere else?

http://www.betterhearing.org/hearing_loss/prevalence_of_hearing_loss/index.cfm

If you've got a chart showing the incidence of shouts heard outside one's bedroom being police iding themselves as opposed to anything else and it's a fair percentage, I'll withdraw my comment. Accusing somebody of "adding falsehoods" where they had good reason to use a certain word is damned rude. It's even more so when you imply there is a history there, and there isn't.

Whether you care or not is of no moment. The fact that one is established speaks to your credibility in this discussion, but you already knew that.

What's pathetic is making up facts to suit a already lame argument. If you don't like being called out for it, quit doing it.

Talk about putting something mildly.

That's called conflict resolution; when you see an armed old man (the burglar) in pajamas at 1 A.M. in the morning, you scream bloody murder at him because he's got a gun.

If they had more time, they could have flash banged the garage first.

I doubt that most of LEO's here follow that protocol and find that everything isn't by the book. They know you have to use your brains and ability to keep calm.

I don't think these two have either. IMO

Who you gonna believe, the Virginia lawyer , or one from Ft Worth?



FORT WORTH -- As the investigation into an officer-involved shooting that left a 72-year-old grandfather dead continues, there are fresh calls for an outside, third-party review of the incident.

Jerry Waller was killed inside his own garage in the Woodhaven neighborhood early Tuesday morning.

A pair of Fort Worth police officers, who have been on the force less than a year, were responding to a burglary alarm in the area.

The pair was originally dispatched to a home across the street from the Waller's, but for some reason, ended up face-to-face with Waller after he opened his garage door.

Sources say it was Ofc. Richard Hoeppner who opened fire and shot Waller, after feeling threatened because he was carrying a .38-caliber handgun.

Outside legal experts say Waller was legally able to have a gun in his own garage.

"A garage is part of your house -- if someone went into your garage, you would charge them with burglary, so it's part of your house," said Jerry Loftin, a longtime Fort Worth-based defense attorney.

The Waller family has said Waller was carrying a weapon because he and his wife noticed lights and noise outside, and he went to see if burglars were on his property.

The family wants an outside entity to review the case.

Loftin agrees that is the best way to ease concern and end growing speculation that is surrounding the investigation.

"There has to be a review from outside," he told News 8.

On Thursday, Fort Worth police again said they wouldn't provide additional details until after their internal review is finished. That could take at least a few weeks.

Mayor Betsy Price wouldn't go into details about the incident, either.

When asked about whether an outside investigation was warranted, she said, "It's really hard to say... I think the police department will take a look. They generally do an excellent job in their investigations."

What happened between Waller and officers Hoeppner and Ben Hanlon, the other rookie involved, in the moments just before the shooting remains unknown.

The police association told News 8 on Wednesday that they hope the public doesn't rush to judgment, and that more details about what happened will emerge."

The more we learn, the worse it looks for the cops.

There is a good possibility the old lady has hearing loss as illustrated by the chart I produced. The issue is a non-starter though as even somebody with perfect hearing might not be able to understand what is being "yelled" a distance away from their location and with walls, etc. between them and the yelling. You know all this and assume for the sake of your own argument that the yelling was the police iding themselves to him whereas it just as easily could have been him yelling "don't shoot" or the like. I'm perfectly willing to withdraw the "hard-of-hearing" wording, although it is perfectly justifiable. Your own foray is simple speculation based on bias.

TFF. I guess you're still having a difficult time grasping the widow's own statements.

I'm writing this very slowly so you can grab hold of a simple concept. Where did the widow say she saw her husband when she came downstairs, again? You've posted it a couple of times yourself. Now, read it...carefully.

There is a good possibility the old lady has hearing loss as illustrated by the chart I produced.
===========

Ahhh, the fallback,back-pedal position. A good possibility now,huh?

TFF.

The more we learn, the worse it looks for the cops.
================

That sounds more like an add-on comment by a confused person rather than a Ft. Worth lawyer. They couldn't be that irresponsible and reckless, could they?

I have no reason to suspect anything here other than a bad and preventable accident. Like Pat says, some folks shouldn't be in le.

You can think and/or say whatever you want but we both know I've never dealt with you on anything but an honorable basis.

Unlike some of the posters on this thread who are jumping thru hoops to justify this shooting, you display some even-handedness. So.... I ask you this:

Given that it has been established that only one of the rookie cops fired all 6 shots, how do you appraise the chances that the other rookie will be absolutely truthful about what happened?

I'm NOT implying that cops are less truthful than other groups, but we are subjected to the "thin blue line" mentality on this forum.

Is it real at all?

Real enough to dictate perjury?

[note to self: when issac responds to this post... ignore him]

These, " , are quotation marks.

They separate the news article from my following comment.

Always watch for them and you will avoid making as many stupid comments.

Quit making eating right out of my hand too easy,cur.

Lots of chickens get killed off when the fox is in the hen-house.

Allowing a given department to investigate itself is the very same analogy to allowing Eic Holder to investigate the DOJ, & I am certain that almost everyone here doesn't agree with that line of thinking.

So what can having an outside entity do the investigation hurt & it certainly adds credibility to whatever the outcome is..........anything less cannot be viewed as anything but suspect.

MM

The cop who killed that innocent man should be behind bars facing manslaughter (minimum) charges right now. He made a mistake and he should take his lumps like a grown man. NO excuse for not being able to count house numbers (odd/even) and end up on the wrong side of the street when responding to a burglary call, it's part of being a "professional" LEO.

Did you have a point to make in this post, or is just one more attempt at confusing what is really a very simple matter of police incompetence?

Simple for agendized diner gossipers, no doubt. The question was very simple. Even wrote it real slow for you. The only way I know how to make the question any easier for you are crayon pictures. Let me know if you still experience further difficulties with the one sentence question.

You really have no argument regarding the OP and/or the situation in general but are just presenting confusing and non-related info for whatever reason.

It's been real.

NO......... "Flashlights", not "flashing lights".
==============

Oh. You're posts glaringly illustrate the best examples of why folks should actually wait until all the facts are known before proffering their "simple" conclusions.



Family of man fatally shot by Fort Worth police disputes details
Jim Douglas; Fort Worth News

Posted on May 29, 2013 at 4:29 PM
Updated Wednesday, May 29 at 5:12 PM


FORT WORTH -- The family of a 72-year-old homeowner killed by police said Wednesday they were "disturbed" by the way the Fort Worth Police Department presented the man's death to the media.

Jerry Waller was shot to death inside his garage about 1 a.m. Tuesday. The incident began when an alarm sounded in the house across the street from Waller's on North Havenwood in east Fort Worth.

Police officials said Tuesday it wasn�t clear how two responding officers, identified by police as R.A. Hoeppner and B.B. Hanlon, ended up at Waller�s house. They encountered him with a pistol inside or near his garage. One or both officers opened fire, hitting Waller multiple times.

Police said the officers felt threatened.

�when I went out there, the place was totally dark," said Kathy Waller, the victim's wife. "All I could see were flashlights.�

She said her husband might have mistaken the officers for burglars, just as they apparently mistook him for a suspect.

�They just came down my driveway, flashing lights, and he thought it was burglars going after his car,� Mrs. Waller said Tuesday night..."

It's been established from more than one source that the widow found his body in their garage, and that he was dead.

The only thing that makes your post puzzling is its "relevance" to E.E.'s hard of hearing comment.

Go on.... I have confidence in you........ make something up.

You really have no argument regarding the OP and/or the situation in general but are just presenting confusing and non-related info for whatever reason.
=================

Try to catch up so your nonsense at least has some inkling of credibility.

Taking this article at face value, and the homeowner had shot a cop, would he or would he not be CHARGED with involuntary manslaughter??(charged, not necessarily convicted, as Texas "deadly force" laws would likely protect either party, here)

I have always felt LE shootings should be investigated by a multi agency review board.

No argument with that at all.


But people are inserting the term innocent. When it has no bearing. Guilt or innocence is not in question. The question is did the victim do something
With the firearm in his hand that caused the officers to fear for their safety. That is the only question that needs to be answered. The cops being at the wrong address is easy to explain by several possible scenarios. The owners actions of arming himself and checking the status of his own residence also does not need to be in question. Neither does the question of whether the LEO's Id'd themselves and ordered him to put his weapon down have to be brought up- i dont know of a training dictum anywhere in the country that trains otherwise than to ID yourself and verbally command the suspect.

It matters not where he was...in his driveway or garage. There were reports that he put his gun down initially and the. Picked it up again, i havent seen it confirmed yet. However. Put yourself in the cops shoes. You are responding to a burglar alarm, and maybe get the wrong house from dispatch or the audible alarm is echoing off of different houses( i dont know the lay out of the neighborhood but i have experienced that( think of a car alarm in a parking lot. How often the sounds seems to emanate from a different vehicle). Or they could have heard noises coming from the old mans garage
And thought maybe the burglar had moved onto a new target house. The old man sees flashlights and opens the garage door to confront what he believes to be thieves and ends up in an armed stare down with police. Police ID themselves. Old man freezes due to shock, hard of hearing or simply disoriented from being woken up to lights flashing.

You are the cops: What do you do if he A: doesnt put the gun down after being ordered too.

B: puts the gun down but pucks it back up as has been suggested?


You are the old man:

What do you do when the subjects you thought were burglars turn out to be uniformed police?

It's been established from more than one source that the widow found his body in their garage, and that he was dead.
==============

Are you being purposely dishonest?

Hell, I'm jumping through hoops as much as everyone else, because none of us where there.

His wife was on the premises and she knows as much as some of us.

No one has to jump through hoops to make this legally justified; this is what Bob knows, even though, in my opinion, they effed up. The fact is they can eff up. Not in an abusive way, but in a way that transpired here.

Police Departments are filled with similar people as the general public; except they can't use drugs.

It is real, because its like a marriage, a team. Folding up your wife at the first sign of a rough spot isn't going to make her be there for you. If you know someone will take a bullet for you, you can bet your ass there is a reciprocity there.
That's a very real thing for some of them, daily.

But if you prove a continued liability, there is no way any sane fellow officer would cover for your ass.

A definite "No" on the perjury, in general terms.

If they are cousins, in-laws or BFF's, the possibility exists just as it would for anyone else, not any more or less.

Like I said, you can follow protocol to a T and be legal, but cops that don't have this happen and have the most respect (by both their peers and the public) are the ones who think, are aware of conclusions, yet don't jump to them.

The Department should be the same way when it comes to defending the officers. I sure as hell wouldn't want to work for a Department that hung everyone's ass out....

I've lived in Fort Worth a long time- had both good and bad experience with FWPD- mostly bad, I'm ashamed to say. No need to tell my stories here.

Their training of officers is antiquated and barbaric, and is done to give the officer a feeling of superiority and dominance over the general public. I am aware of this from inside knowledge of people at many levels of Local and federal LE. They have a very high academy drop out rate, and these student move on to other local PDs with more modern, humane, and progressive training.

The people of Fort Worth seem to have come out overwhelming In support of the old man and his family, and want to know the truth about what happened.


I am following this closely to see how it turns out.

Oh...due to the low class static on this thread, I have found it much easier to follow and more informative since I have put Dink an Isaac on my ignore list.

Bud

Many thanks for the boots-on-the-ground info. I hope you'll help keep us updated here.

Wise move.

"You are the cops: What do you do if he A: doesnt put the gun down after being ordered too.

B: puts the gun down but pucks it back up as has been suggested?"

That has puzzled me from the start.

Now that it's been reported that only one cop did all the shooting, it might be that the one who didn't shoot said the old man dropped the gun.

The one who did shoot claims he had a gun.

So... to square up both statements,.... you have him drop the gun............ and then pick it up again.


If someone can postulate a more plausible explanation, I'm open minded.

I"ll say it. The city cops in this area are all liars. Any time I encounter one, I just look at my watch, and see how long it is before I catch then in a lie. Usually it's around 5 minutes. Sometime it's longer, but virtually always I will catch them in a lie. The County Sheriffs are very different. Seldom will you catch one of them in a lie. I believe this probably started with Frazier v. Cupp which ruled cops can lie so long as it's not "offensive to the court". The problem is, they get so used to it, they can't stop. This dynamic has a highly corrective effect on the relationship between Law Enforcement and the public. If you can't trust them to tell the truth in casual conversation, how can you trust them to tell the truth after they kill a 73 year old man standing in his own garage? The answer is you can't, so any benefit of any doubt should go to the dead man who can't tell his side of the story.

Gene. Cant say for sure but its possible. That both officers were not side by side. Maybe the other was at an angle where he couldnt see the gun/ have a clear line of fire?

Or maybe the other officer had a better mental perspective, and realize the guy was just picking it up to walk back into the house.

. Doesnt happen that way. We dont let people just pick up their gun and go back inside once they have been ordered to drop it. He would have been detained until it could have been verified that he lived there. If he picked the gun back up after being ordered to drop it all bets are off. He has made a furtive movement

Not really.

FWIW:

I was out with a LEO on Thursday. He had a couple of comments that are relevant to this discussion.

1. - They are trained that, if dark, ALWAYS shine your light into the guy's eyes. Use the spotlight from the cruiser or use your flashlight, but put in in their eyes. That way, you can see them but they CAN'T see you. They are blinded. Who knows, but in this case maybe the old guy did not know, other than perhaps hearing a "loud command voice" that the people shining the light at him were cops.

2. - Their "understood" department protocol, when rolling up to what the refer to as an "active scene" is to shoot everybody with a gun in their hand. It is entirely up to the individual cop if he wants to give a command to drop or not. They are fully authorized to shoot everybody with a gun. Period. He advised me to think twice about using a weapon and coming to someone's aid before or after the cops show up. He advised that even if I was assisting an officer down that I would likely be immediately shot by the next leo showing up if I was holding a gun.

3. - They are taught that their primary goal is to finish the shift alive and in good health. Yes, they mix it up with the perps, but do not take any chances. They are taught that in this event, as described, that it is unfortunate but the cops were just following protocols as they have been taught. Unfortunate and that's about it. Remember, they are not out there to protect the citizen. They are out there to apprehend criminals. This is important. YOU are considered to be a potential criminal until demonstrated otherwise. This old guy would simply be seen as unfortunate collateral damage.

TF

TFF!

I bet you have had a lot of run ins with the PD. Can you tell everyone why you have had so many dealings with the police?

(if he doesn't lie this should be good)

Dink

Yea ive never seen or heard anything like. #2 in 13 years of con ed updates and trainings as well as academy training.

You're right. It's become standard procedure for cops to lie in their interactions with the public in order to manipulate them into inculpating themselves in some way. I imagine that can be habit-forming in general.

It's a good thing we have a judicial system where facts decide the fate of a "defendant" and not the hyperbolic statements of yet another poster who has a hard-on for LEOs in general. The only FACT you know is a 72 year old man was shot by a certified police officer commissioned by the City of Ft. Worth, TX. Anything else you may have gleaned from newspaper article, or a God-forsaken [bleep] blog, is at best suspect in accuracy.

I can't believe #2 either, unless you believe LEO's are above the law. If a LEO is fearful of his safety then he needs another line of work. First and foremost LEO's are to protect and serve not kill, they are supposed to be aware that an armed subject may not be a "Perp" but possibly a citizen who is assisting someone or just protecting himself or his family or proprty. With all the hype about firearms being "Bad" or "Evil" have we relegated our view to believe LEO's are allowed to shoot anyone possessing a weapon. I fear a world where such a view is allowed.

Precisely as to two and three. Number one rings true as well. All of these are highly problematic in what's supposed to be a free nation.

The quote is the only truthful part of your post.

It's 2013 in America.

Cop'll shoot you if you're holding a firearm.

Many people in their 70's don't really know that.

Pay attention,...behave accordingly,...or maybe become an ex-pat,...I dunno.

,...but what's happening in the U.S of A is going to get more harsh by the day,....and it isn't just limited to the behavior of American cops.

If I was 40 years old or younger, I'd be gettin' the fug outta this place.

It's bad and gonna get much worse very soon.

His imagination is also dangerous

"It's become standard procedure for cops to lie in their interactions with the public in order to manipulate them into inculpating themselves in some way."

I've witnessed it myself. While interviewing a suspect, cops toss in lies designed to trip them up and/or encourage confessions. A favorite appears to be to suggest a contraction where none is present, i.e., lie about what the suspect said a few minutes previously so as to convince them they're being railroaded, so might as well try for a deal.

If your buddy really is LEO he was [bleep] with you. If he actually told you this he is not LEO.

Funny either way though.

Dink

Wrong sir!

The tin-foil hat crowd grows with each LEO-centric news article.

Your #2 is a flat out lie.

It's a bald faced, rancid prevarication.

There could be more plain clothes LEOs at an "active" scene than there are criminal suspects. Do you expect ANYONE to believe that the LEOs of Ft. Worth would actually shoot everyone with a gun in their hand at an active scene knowing that there could be any number of plainclothes detectives or grungy looking undercover officers on the "active" scene? Good Lord have mercy; I just thought [bleep] posted the most outrageous, outlandish, stupid thing I had read in my 14 years on this board + the time spent on the old Shooter's board. Now I have to take the latex anus award away from him and award it to you.

Confuckinggratulations!

Umm. An interrogation of a suspect. Is mot an interaction with the public. And generally if i am interrogating someone its mot willy-nilly out of the blue. Chaces are i know he is the right guy before i go question him. If i choose to change his words around on him it is because i have already caught him in a lie.

Whats next. You gonna tell me that getting a confession is entrapment?

Your #1 and #2 are not compatible. One of them is just a flat out lie and one is a partial truth. Let's see if you can determine which is the ridiculous lie.

Besides, I don't care how many how many times you've witnessed it for yourself, it's anecdotal evidence and as such can not be used to generalize to the whole of LE. In fact, it can't even be used to generalize to that department, only to the officer you heard it from. Now remember, you said standard procedure...

I see no campfire commandos here; I read legitimate concerns/thoughts put to words. A seventy-something-year old guy? I'll leave it there..

It's refreshing that you admit it, verifying Number 2 as true, i.e., you see lying as central to your profession.

gitem 12 already ratted you folks out. Too late.

Yes sir...I believe by design. I have been preparing the necessary foods, ammo, guns, plans and contingency plans and emergency plans when the first two fail.

It's going to get UGLY around here real soon.

Re: Magnum dood:

Well ok. BTW he had two examples of leos being shot by other leos who came upon a scene and thought they were putting down the bad guy.

It also seems to me that the old guy is a result of this type of thinking. Active scene, probable flashlight to the eyes, an assumed furtive movement, some sort of failure or hesitation and then of course "shoot the guy with a gun in his hand."

Yup, seems consistent to me, but what the hell do I know? I'm an idiot.

tf

Bullschitt. He explained he used that interrogation method when he was interrogating someone who he was pretty sure was the offender.

Try again.

I don't see how you got through higher education without even a rudimentary knowledge of inferential statistics and social science. You constantly take the exception and call it the rule when dealing with LE. I don't believe you have much education at all. Maybe an online degree, but surely not a rigorous program of study.

I done got me a sixth grade education, to include cipherin' and sich, up to and includin' long division. shows how much you know.

Not much if you actually believed the Ft. Worth LEO when he told you of their practice of shooting everyone with a gun in his hand if they rolled up on an active scene. Just a little common sense knocks that one outa' the park.

Yeah... ...

You constantly display an ignorance of the social sciences and of inferential statistics. I'm the one doing the laughing.

The only thing I see "convoluted" here is your interpretation of what I actually said.



You are right in that I am not military and I don't even know why you would bring that up. But so long as you did, I would consider it an honor and a privilege to have some sitting in my jury pool.

B, I'm afraid you are right.

Tripping someone up while questioning does not constitute a lie. Its a simple, proven technique that has been upheld in court. As long as the lmisrepresentation does not coerce the confession there is mothing wrong with it.

Lying under oath is a whole different matter.

A rose by any other name.

You're not too old to become an ex-pat. Why do you keep saying that?

Actually, I am.

Show me a synopsis of the tragectory of America at age 35,...I'd be gone.

But here it is,...and I find myself pushing hard against the door of age 60.

I'll stay,...ride my bikes up and down I-75 for entertainment,..and do my best to ignore the upcoming Bolshevik reconfiguration of North America.

At least I know what it is.

Knotheads like you will be caught unaware,.,..and suck the tubes of those who catch you that way.

,...pucker up.

Oh...due to the low class static on this thread, I have found it much easier to follow and more informative since I have put Dink an Isaac on my ignore list.
===============

After only 11 awesome posts, too. And a customary attaboy from spandex boy,too.

Some cyber-Monistat headed your way, Lightweight.

In case anyone's curious about Bob's obsession with spandex in connection to myself, I'll fill you in. About five years ago I mentioned bike riding, and what immediately sprang to Bob's imagination was an image of myself wearing spandex. He hasn't been able to get it off his mind since.

And the trajectories of the countries where you could go, if you were 35 again, are so attractive, aren't they?

Plenty of countries where you could find the sorts of personal freedom and independence you feel are so lacking here.

Countries like ... Czechoslovakia. You've written about that place before. Lots more personal freedom, there. Lots less intrusive behavior from the government. Liberal gun laws; more so than here, I guess, otherwise you wouldn't recommend it.

There must be other countries, too, so much more in tune with your personal tastes and political beliefs. How about Costa Rica? Yes, much more freedom and liberty there, or so I hear. There must be others, too.

Nothing with you is that simple. Im almost positive there is more to it than that just based on the recent spider threads

OK............. but the dropping it and then picking it back up again is the part I can't buy into. There is simply no plausible reason for him to do that.

Either he didn't drop his gun and was shot, or he did drop his gun and was shot.

No way he picked it back up knowing the cops had guns on him.

Agreed?

gitem 12 you on have an admitted predilection to that of lies, make believe, and falsehood. You pervert a duty of discovering truth in the name of justice with your injected misery of lies. Why would anyone but a failed human value your word or thought?

Gene, The only reason I can come up with is disorientation or nervousness. But like i said noone has substantiated that yet all we have is the reports. Until it is verified i cannot disagree with you. Only leave it open that it is a plausible theory

Little ricky Glad you could tear your lips out of TRH's crotch long enough to join us.
My integrity has never come under question by either my superiors or the county prosecutors.


As a matter of fact i have testified against pokice officers in my own dept.

Now hurry along There is probably some kiddy porn on the internet you havent seen yet. But i doubt it

That's funny gitem. All stories presented here are plausible, but yet you continue to discount all but the ones that are biased. Transparency comes to mind.

I havent discounted anything. But i am playing devils advocate. Because too many people here already have these two cops strung up by ropes. When we have no official reports. Only a blog entry and a news paper article. The funny thing is none of you seem to think anything but these cops assasinated a 72 year old man is plausible So wouldnt your point be more valid if I only discounted the biased ones?

Oh, well in that case you're pretty well duty bound to demand from Bob the original materials from whence this came. Boy, wouldn't I be embarrassed if there were actually anything to it?

You obviously have me confused with someone else. The most damming thing I have said about FWPD is that it just doesn't look good. And I stand by that statement, even though some here have a hard time accepting that.

Did they catch the burglar(s) or just stop looking after they capped the old dude?

Alan

You have in common with Bob a predilection towards fantasies of that type, do you?

Lying and projecting your lies is also how you assert your character; it is your fallback position. That you find yourself in the company of those who overlook and condone such behavior is no surprise. Lie some more, it�s what you do. Pervert reality with your sickness.

What burglar?

This same arguement is going over at the Tx. Hunting Forums. Nobody can know anything without more info. Kinda sorry to see some good people raggin' on each other here, but heck, it's the innanet.

No intention of singling you out. You are right things dont look good for FWPD. Truth is things are never good for any Dept that has an officer involved shooting. No matter the outcome initial public perception stays. Then there is the added internal stress as well as finacial burdens beyond what insurance pays for. Dept. paid counciling is not cheap. Then add to it the nightmare the individual officer goes through until things are sorted out.

What I've learned from all this.

Don't backlight yourself if checking out lights in your back yard.
Don't let whoever is back there know you are armed.
Shoot first and make sure your side of the story is the only one told.

Alan

And what lies woukd you be referring to?

Here in Saginaw Mi. a while back the cops shot an old homeless man who was waveing a knife, 46 times. They had confronted him in a parking lot and been talking to him for several minutes. He was obviously mentally unstable, and yes he did have a pocket knife, but 46 [bleep] times. Comon sence tells you he must have been laying on the ground for the last 35 shots. Now i don't know any of the LE officers on here personally so this is NOT ment as a slam to them. However the way i've personally watched todays LE officers bold face lie along with some of the recent shootings, i would not trust one as far as i could throw them. That is a very sad reflection of where we've come to in this country, but it is what it is. Many seem to think they are some elite force and us CIVILIANS are guilty untill they deem otherwise. Hope the two in Tx. get what they deserve whichever way it plays out and god bless the family of the dead man.

I am sure the responding officers had no idea it was "His driveway". They responded to a call, saw a man with a gun, told him to put it down and he didn't.

Bad deal. Very tragic.

Jim

Good gawd, you still beating each other up over this?

Few things more dangerous to life and limb these days than to call the cops. Anyone unlucky enough to be in the vicinity is in grave danger.

The Ukrainians I used to supervise at a work site used to tell me that throughout Eastern Europe, no one calls the police for anything for this reason. Dead bodies lie there for days in public view because no one wants to bring on the trouble and danger calling the police will bring to everyone in the area. Looks like we're moving that direction pretty fast.

So you just shot him 6 times in the back.

Sounds like Ruby Ridge to me.

AMEN

Hawkeye,

You live in a world where the cops are dangerous, taking a walk is dangerous, drinking the water is dangerous and changing a light bulb is dangerous.

I think you should change your lifestyle or get bigger nun-chucks.

Dink

That' fine. But do you do it to your wife, your kids, and your friends, or just anyone you mean on the street as matter of normal conversation? I suspect not, but for some cops, this becomes their default mode of operation. Since everyone is a suspect, even the person who call in the complaint, you they consider themselves entitled to lie to everyone, creating a very unhealthy dynamic between themselves and the public. With cops around here, it's never a question of IF they will lie to me, the question is WHEN will they start lying.

You forgot about taking a shower.

And spiders

Let me put it to you this way...........what is it that makes you think that you are "special" & should/would like to get, preferential treatment by being accorded fellow brothers of the badge as jury members, because, obviously, you feel that us "ordinary" citizens, who YOU work for aren't up to the task?

It's your thinking that even allows such drivel to be typed that is convoluted.

I brought up military as they are generally tried by their own; all the rest of the population, including you "special" LEO's,, who are also civilians, are tried in a civilian court by the rest of us civilians, who are in fact, your peers, so you see, you are not really special at all except maybe in your own mind.

It's also your convoluted thinking that tends to make essentially neutral people, look as LEO's with a jaundiced eye.

You should really just think about your comments for a while as I know you are a pretty smart & savvy guy, & recognize how they come out.

MM

Don't forget root beer. I once mentioned that I didn't enjoy root beer.

OK. I see where you are coming from. You feel that cops should be held to the exact same standards as anyone else when they [bleep]-up too, right ?

Didn't take the bait yet...

The USSC hasn't gone as far to say only LEOs should serve on the jury in LEO trials. The USSC has allowed LEOs more latitude in assuming facts than "ordinary" citizens because some facts would not be recognizable by you "ordinary" citizens. LEOs recognize these facts and can act on that recognition due to specialized training and a daily exposure to certain behaviors displayed by criminals.

YES......... watch the video.She plainly says "flashing light" not flashlight, at 1:15 of the video

Madamdouche is special....here's some footage of her working her beat.

I've lived in the most corrupt state in the union for 13 years now - Illinois. I see City Officers, Deputy Sheriffs and Highway Patrol Officers on a daily basis. In 13 years I have yet to see one of them angry or anything but professional and polite. In fact, my son, who is 25 now, and gainfully employed as a mechanical engineer owes several Carbondale PD Officers his very future. On more than one occasion he had been in the back of a patrol car, in cuffs, for being intoxicated in public and once for DUI. All 3 times friends of his, who were sober, asked if they could take him home. All three times the officers "unarrested" him and turned him over to his friends who then brought him home. He never had a mark on him...not even chafing from the cuffs being too tight. My son must have had a guardian angel assigned to him 24/7/365. He's making about 90K now after 2 years, he's married, and I have a 6-month old grandson. The only downside is he has to live in Rapid City, MI. He's a Texan; he's going to freeze to death.

I have nothing but praise to heap on the entire LE community in this region of the country. I've been stopped 3 times for having lights burned out on my truck. Once by a deputy sheriff and twice by the highway patrol. In each instance, the LEOs were courteous, told me which light was out and just requested that I take care of it the next day. Not even a warning citation was issued.