Republican Sens. Rand Paul and Dean Heller on Thursday both denounced as �offensive� and �racist� Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy�s recent comments about African-Americans.
�His remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him,� Paul said in a statement, according to Business Insider. Continue Reading Text Size
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�Senator Heller completely disagrees with Mr. Bundy�s appalling and racist statements, and condemns them in the most strenuous way,� Heller spokeswoman Chandler Smith said in a statement.
Both Paul and Heller have previously defended Bundy, the Nevada rancher who is in a standoff against the federal government. Heller has referred to his supporters as �patriots.�
(Also on POLITICO: Rand Paul makes a muddle)
But on Thursday, The New York Times reported Bundy using the word �Negro� and wondering if blacks were better off as slaves.
�They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton,� Bundy said over the weekend, according to the Times. �And I�ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn�t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.�
Appearing on �CBS This Morning� on Thursday, Texas Gov. Rick Perry said he hadn�t seen Bundy�s comments. The Republican called Bundy a �side story� in the greater issue of how the federal government deals with public and private land.
Fox News host Greta Van Susteren on Thursday released a statement on her official blog: �Let me make this plain: I condemn what Cliven Bundy said about African Americans.� Van Susteren has devoted significant time on her program to the Bundy issue, interviewing both Paul and Carol Bundy, Cliven�s wife.
(Also on POLITICO: Bundy and BLM: 10 things to know)
�Morning Joe� co-host and former GOP Rep. Joe Scarborough on his program Thursday morning slammed Bundy and Republicans who have embraced him. He said that Bundy is demanding �a right that no other rancher in America has.�
The host appeared to be equally upset with conservatives that have championed Bundy over the course of the past few weeks. �There�s nothing conservative about this man,� Scarborough said. �This is where nihilism about the federal government gets you in trouble every time.�
Comparing Bundy to George Zimmerman, Scarborough continued: �They basically pick their friends based on who their �enemies� are. In this case, a lot of people in conservative media have raced to this guy�s defense. They must be feeling very exposed this morning.�
Mo Elleithee, communications director for the Democratic National Committee, took to Twitter to criticize Paul for what he thought was a slow response. �So @SenRandPaul took 12 hours to condemn Bundy�s racist rant. 12 hours. I dunno about him, but my outrage was pretty instant,� Elleithee wrote.
I mean, there are a lot of folks who supported him in this go-round, by driving a lot of miles on their own dimes to take the chance of being shot by their own government with equipment paid for by their own tax dollars. There are furthermore, a lot of us who tacitly supported him by simply saying the government was "more wrong" and also some politicians like Rand Paul who supported him basically, in the same manner. Now he apparently comes out with remarks bound to paint him as racist. I couldn't care less about Bundy's own beliefs, but why would he even share them with the public? They don't impact his situation with his cows on public land a bit that I can see and the media will make sure they reflect on all his "supporters".
I have nothing against him using the word "negro" as I see nothing at all offensive about it. You know what is coming from the media though and they're already smearing Rand Paul with it.
What on God's green earth prompted him to blabber about that?
I don't know. I wouldn't doubt some reporter provoked it but still, how effing stupid can a guy get? If somebody wants to make inflammatory remarks that get the PC crowd all twisted up, that's fine, but when he's got a bunch of people who helped him out and it reflects on them, that's a different thing entirely.
It's a free country and the man is entitled to say what he wants. Why do politicians always see the need to interject their 2 cents into this sort of stuff?
Honestly, who cares if Bundy wants to say something stupid and make an ass of himself, he's the one that has to live with it.
It's a free country and the man is entitled to say what he wants. Why do politicians always see the need to interject their 2 cents into this sort of stuff?
Honestly, who cares if Bundy wants to say something stupid and make an ass of himself, he's the one that has to live with it.
Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are probably our two best shots at rolling back some of the [bleep] that's happened the past four years. I assume Bundy couldn't control Paul coming out in support of him, basically, but Paul is a powerful player in the government and he did. Then Bundy says a bunch of needless stuff that reflects poorly on Rand. It's simply rude and ill-thought, not to mention needless. I guess Bundy thought his supporters were just a bunch of ignert Kluckers.
His comments on .gov subsidy are almost funny when you consider the subsidies, tax exemptions, and discounted fuel the .gov provides for farmers and ranchers.
Heck, ol' bundy doesn't pay his grazing fees, or a penny in property tax (because he owns no land).
I think the old guy just wants his five minutes of fame, before he tips over.
First, "negro" is Spanish for the color black. When I had a gem business I dealt with a number of Hispanics who always referred to me as El Negro Sombrero because my business name started off with Black Derby. If Paul and others find that racist they are ignorant.
Second, as to whether or not the majority of blacks were better off as slaves to white plantation owners and black freemen they probably were. The new slave masters on Capital Hill and the White Plantation House on the Potomac haven't done them any favors and have made their lives overall worse. Our slave masters on the Hill haven't done us white folks any favors either. Based on the article I would say Bundy is right and not a racist.
I would say Paul and others are looking for whatever cover they can find because they have gotten the word from on high and have become targets themselves.
Bet he runs into a lot of American of the Africana descent out there in Bundyville. Horses and flags won't save him now. Now he is a crackpot, a racist crackpot. And a Mormon....
Second, as to whether or not the majority of blacks were better off as slaves to white plantation owners and black freemen they probably were.
Are you serious.
Yes if you study history past and present. I'm not implying slavery is a good thing but if you look at slavery as it was and the slavery as it's practice today both on the blacks and whites yes it was. Make no mistake about it we are all slaves today who think we are free. Our slave master have done a wonderful job of propaganda.
Yes if you study history past and present. I'm not implying slavery is a good thing but if you look at slavery as it was and the slavery as it's practice today both on the blacks and whites yes it was. Make no mistake about it we are all slaves today who think we are free. Our slave master have done a wonderful job of propaganda.
His comments on .gov subsidy are almost funny when you consider the subsidies, tax exemptions, and discounted fuel the .gov provides for farmers and ranchers.
Heck, ol' bundy doesn't pay his grazing fees, or a penny in property tax (because he owns no land).
I think the old guy just wants his five minutes of fame, before he tips over.
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
Second, as to whether or not the majority of blacks were better off as slaves to white plantation owners and black freemen they probably were.
Are you serious.
Yes if you study history past and present. I'm not implying slavery is a good thing but if you look at slavery as it was and the slavery as it's practice today both on the blacks and whites yes it was. Make no mistake about it we are all slaves today who think we are free. Our slave master have done a wonderful job of propaganda.
Funny, I would think that in order to comment on the desirability of living the life of an African slave in the Colonial US, one would need some actual hands-on experience in that role. And it would seem to me that commenting on the desirability of that life without that experience would be the height of arrogance. Not to mention ignorant.
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
I'm not MontanaMarine but if you drive away before paying you'll save schit tons of money.
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
I'm not MontanaMarine but if you drive away before paying you'll save schit tons of money.
Travis
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind next time I fill up. Mind if I refer them to you when I am detained to explain my actions?
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
I'm not MontanaMarine but if you drive away before paying you'll save schit tons of money.
He's not the only one to shoot himself in the foot with his mouth in all this.... Sheriff Mack did a good job as well.
No matter what the context or intent of statements made in the presence of the media, one must realize that they WILL spin it to THEIR advantage, and if you were taken out of context, or misquoted, by the time people figure out what you really meant, it is too late.
There was no need for a daily press conference in the first place.
Maybe he knew Clayton Williams, another bright bulb...
Cost him the governor's race. He had it in the bag til that campfire comment.... And he just handed that office to the worst governor since Mark White.
No matter what the context or intent of statements made in the presence of the media, one must realize that they WILL spin it to THEIR advantage, and if you were taken out of context, or misquoted, by the time people figure out what you really meant, it is too late.
Here we go again...
Unfortunately, they didn't have to spin anything in this retard's case. He did the damage all by his lonesome.
"Them negro folk was better off when they was slaves because all they is now is slaves anywhoo! Now get the [bleep] off the land I don't own before I ride my horse and this flag right up your ass! Hi YOOOO SILVER!!!"
No matter how I cut it ,in my mind the real owner of the land is the American Indian ,not the US Government ,and any gazing rights money should go to them.
His comments on .gov subsidy are almost funny when you consider the subsidies, tax exemptions, and discounted fuel the .gov provides for farmers and ranchers.
Heck, ol' bundy doesn't pay his grazing fees, or a penny in property tax (because he owns no land).
I think the old guy just wants his five minutes of fame, before he tips over.
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
I do a lot of farm and ranch tax returns and I sure would like to know where that discounted fuel comes from too.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THIS STUPIDITY. AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN IS A PERSON WHO WAS BORN IN AFRICA, CROSSED THE OCEANS, AND BECAME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN.
I don't give a rats ass who calls me what; my family came from Ireland, Germany, and Scotland. More than a few fought and died in wars defending this nation, the one to which THEY swore their loyalty. My friends have been called pollocks, wops, dagos, spics, wet-backs, hunkies, negros and [bleep] and every one of them is a certified AMERICAN from the ground up - and none of them give a rats ass what they are called by ignorant pissants.
Freedom of speech does NOT guarantee that the speaker is very smart - or right - but free speech is free speech. Damning or dismissing someone who is defending his or her rights because they have a point of view inconsistent with yours - or mine - is your right, but is just wrong.
Second, as to whether or not the majority of blacks were better off as slaves to white plantation owners and black freemen they probably were.
Are you serious.
Yes if you study history past and present. I'm not implying slavery is a good thing but if you look at slavery as it was and the slavery as it's practice today both on the blacks and whites yes it was. Make no mistake about it we are all slaves today who think we are free. Our slave master have done a wonderful job of propaganda.
Funny, I would think that in order to comment on the desirability of living the life of an African slave in the Colonial US, one would need some actual hands-on experience in that role. And it would seem to me that commenting on the desirability of that life without that experience would be the height of arrogance. Not to mention ignorant.
I didn't say the life was desirable I just said that for most part they were treated better by the old slave masters than by the new slave masters and for many blacks the old system of slavery was better than the new system of slavery based on history. I also said I agree with Bundy's statement based on the context in the article.
As a libertarian/anarchist/pagan I believe in freedom and want everybody to have as much as possible but I also understand that many people prefer a type of slavery to freedom because slavery is security and to some people security is the most important thing in their life.
you all don't think that the media was gunning for cliven in a trap? And it was sprung? You got to keep in mind this is in general the strip country of northern arizona running over into nevada a very desolate, rural part of americana, not versed in general in it's people with modern political correct nuansances. He walked into the trap.
He is now deceased, but a number of years ago in a face to face with another mormon, ev mecham, who was crucified as gov of arizona for revoking the MLK day, and calling black kids picininnies, I asked him why he used that word? He said he didn't think anything of it, as that is what they were called in the 30's when he was growing up. My comment was my mother used the word too, for the same reason, but she wasn't governor with the opposition waiting with their axes out. Politically aware even as governor he wasn't as to the ramifications of what he said. I suspect Cliven is the same way. And negro is spanish for black. We were mixing some screwdrivers the other day using oso Negro vodka, or black bear. What I really think is funny is the original spelling of my maternal grandfather's name in croatian is black. As to his comments about picking cotton, my wife picked cotton with her sharecropper father in texas. You have to wonder if a lot of blacks would be better off in a agricultural setting or in downtown detroit. I asked a guy in the room next to me in college many years ago, who was black, what I should call him, as I didn't know what was acceptable. Black, afroamerican, negro, what? My point being is not ALL blacks in this country came directly from Africa. I liked and always remembered his answer. Call me Cletus, that's my name. Just like it would be difficult to identify some of my slovak, croat, polish, jewish, catholic, spanish, mexican, pima, cousins all wrapped up in one.
Really? The discipline of not talking about negroes picking cotton hasn't found it's way out in your parts,yet?
I repeat, that strip country is like stepping back many many years. It is not the same as metro areas of arizona. People don't generally know it, but not ALL of geronimo's band surrendered to the army. There were free apaches running in the mountains between mexico/arizona into the 30's that NEVER surrendered.
His comments on .gov subsidy are almost funny when you consider the subsidies, tax exemptions, and discounted fuel the .gov provides for farmers and ranchers.
Heck, ol' bundy doesn't pay his grazing fees, or a penny in property tax (because he owns no land).
I think the old guy just wants his five minutes of fame, before he tips over.
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
I do a lot of farm and ranch tax returns and I sure would like to know where that discounted fuel comes from too.
Maybe I'm behind the times, but not so long ago there was"red dye" diesel, for ag use only. It was cheaper, and I believe that was due to less taxation.
I can understand John Moses because he is ignorant but I'm having a hard time understanding you as a libertarian and your stance.
It's simple DD, I don't like freeloaders in general. I especially don't like freeloaders who won't pay up. They could throw this clown in a labor camp and it wouldn't bother me at all.
I didn't say the life was desirable I just said that for most part they were treated better by the old slave masters than by the new slave masters and for many blacks the old system of slavery was better than the new system of slavery based on history. I also said I agree with Bundy's statement based on the context in the article.
As a libertarian/anarchist/pagan I believe in freedom and want everybody to have as much as possible but I also understand that many people prefer a type of slavery to freedom because slavery is security and to some people security is the most important thing in their life.
You made a value judgment as to which way of life was/is more desirable. All I'm saying is, never having been an African slave, you know not what you speak of and your opinion is based on ignorance as far as what it was like to be an African slave. You presume to know what that life was like, otherwise, you couldn't possibly make a value judgment as to its desirability vs anything else.
And your italicized statement above is a pure red herring, since by your own description, both lifestyles are a form of slavery. So what does your status as a libertarian, or your desire that others have as much freedom as possible have to do with it? According to you, it's a choice between two forms of slavery, where does freedom enter the picture?
Only discounted fuel I know of for anyone, and is available for anyone is the Red Diesel Fuel and strictly used for off road use of equipment and is not taxed as normal fuel... and you don't want to get caught using it in on road vehicles.
One of the things i have been expecting in the progression of the story of Mr. Bundy, was what i expected to be the marginalization, demonizing, ridiculing of him and his family by the left, big govt. bunch. And their psycopants. Seems like it is right on schedule, got to make fun of them first, before you send in the troops.
Only discounted fuel I know of for anyone, and is available for anyone is the Red Diesel Fuel and strictly used for off road use of equipment and is not taxed as normal fuel... and you don't want to get caught using it in on road vehicles.
One of the things i have been expecting in the progression of the story of Mr. Bundy, was what i expected to be the marginalization, demonizing, ridiculing of him and his family by the left, big govt. bunch. ==========
Can be something as simple as following purchase records!
Worked for one company way back when, that had delivered for company use Gasoline, Diesel, and Red Diesel... and over time their use of red diesel got overly high, and on inspection they got caught using the red diesel in their personal vehicles. Big Mistake!
Hell everytime he was on Hannity he would just mumble in coherrent [bleep]. I think he said at one point Harry Reid needs to stay out of Clark county buiseness uh he is your [bleep] U.S Senator. His sons aren't any brighter either. As people said he needs a good lawyer and a good spokesman and keep the microphone away from him. He is all but done the U.S governemnt wins the BLM will be back in a few weeks this time the crazy old bastard will be on his own.
Worked for one company way back when, that had delivered for company use Gasoline, Diesel, and Red Diesel... and over time their use of red diesel got overly high, and on inspection they got caught using the red diesel in their personal vehicles. Big Mistake!
Phil
Sounds like that would be a good time to not recognize the federal government.
Tax Evasion, have a diesel welder on the back of your truck... its OK to use the red diesel in the welder but not the truck its mounted on, same on cranes or any over the road equipment with an upper and lower engine. Most company's are really strict with its use, and it's not really all that hard for an employee to mistakenly miss use it.
I mean, there are a lot of folks who supported him in this go-round, by driving a lot of miles on their own dimes to take the chance of being shot by their own government with equipment paid for by their own tax dollars. There are furthermore, a lot of us who tacitly supported him by simply saying the government was "more wrong" and also some politicians like Rand Paul who supported him basically, in the same manner. Now he apparently comes out with remarks bound to paint him as racist. I couldn't care less about Bundy's own beliefs, but why would he even share them with the public? They don't impact his situation with his cows on public land a bit that I can see and the media will make sure they reflect on all his "supporters".
I have nothing against him using the word "negro" as I see nothing at all offensive about it. You know what is coming from the media though and they're already smearing Rand Paul with it.
It's funny to watch the fleas bail from the dead dog. Laffin! Hey Rock where are you on this?
"They" check trucks frequently around here. Die stays with the tank for quite a while longer than the fuel too.
I've seen impromptu checkpoints in AZ and I've heard of them here. Where DOT guy sticks a tester down into your fuel tanks for a sample. From what I understand there's no getting the evidence out of the fuel filter
There was nothing taken out of context on his negro talk. They didn't include his Mexican stance and summary. I would say he like Mexicans a lot better than Negros. He's still not too smart.
His comments on .gov subsidy are almost funny when you consider the subsidies, tax exemptions, and discounted fuel the .gov provides for farmers and ranchers.
Heck, ol' bundy doesn't pay his grazing fees, or a penny in property tax (because he owns no land).
I think the old guy just wants his five minutes of fame, before he tips over.
Can you help me figure out where I can get some of this "discounted fuel" of which you speak? I am a cattle and hay producer and could sure use some "discounted" fuel.
I do a lot of farm and ranch tax returns and I sure would like to know where that discounted fuel comes from too.
Maybe I'm behind the times, but not so long ago there was"red dye" diesel, for ag use only. It was cheaper, and I believe that was due to less taxation.
I haven't heard about red dye diesel in some time. I know there is a fuel tax credit but then the fuel tax credit has to be added back to income the nest year. Some credit.
"They" check trucks frequently around here. Die stays with the tank for quite a while longer than the fuel too.
I've seen impromptu checkpoints in AZ and I've heard of them here. Where DOT guy sticks a tester down into your fuel tanks for a sample. From what I understand there's no getting the evidence out of the fuel filter
Definitely. There is no "discounted" fuel for farmers. The idea is that most of fuel tax is directly slated for road repairs and off-road stuff basically doesn't use the road much. A guy I knew around here (he's dead now) got caught with it in their pov's and not just in their farm equipment and construction equipment. They got fined something like $80,000.
I can understand John Moses because he is ignorant but I'm having a hard time understanding you as a libertarian and your stance.
It's simple DD, I don't like freeloaders in general. I especially don't like freeloaders who won't pay up. They could throw this clown in a labor camp and it wouldn't bother me at all.
I don't think Bundy is a freeloader. We just disagree.
I didn't say the life was desirable I just said that for most part they were treated better by the old slave masters than by the new slave masters and for many blacks the old system of slavery was better than the new system of slavery based on history. I also said I agree with Bundy's statement based on the context in the article.
As a libertarian/anarchist/pagan I believe in freedom and want everybody to have as much as possible but I also understand that many people prefer a type of slavery to freedom because slavery is security and to some people security is the most important thing in their life.
You made a value judgment as to which way of life was/is more desirable. All I'm saying is, never having been an African slave, you know not what you speak of and your opinion is based on ignorance as far as what it was like to be an African slave. You presume to know what that life was like, otherwise, you couldn't possibly make a value judgment as to its desirability vs anything else.
And your italicized statement above is a pure red herring, since by your own description, both lifestyles are a form of slavery. So what does your status as a libertarian, or your desire that others have as much freedom as possible have to do with it? According to you, it's a choice between two forms of slavery, where does freedom enter the picture?
There is no freedom as long as we have a nation state but that's besides the point. You keep putting words in my mouth so this ends the discussion.
Cliven Bundy: "Hand me that loaded .45 so I can blow my dick off". Bang!!! "Ouch. Thank you." Cheese and rice, what an idiot. Actually, his remarks about blacks being destroyed by the federal plantation were spot on, but he lost all credibility when he called them "negroes" and said they hadn't learned to "pick cotton". Those remarks gave the whole game away.
I just went and checked the reports about what Bundy was supposed to have said and compared it to the video.Bundy never said blacks were better off as slaves.Its a lie.
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by isaac
HUH? Listen to the video, sport.
Here's the lesson. If Bundy doesn't STFU, and lawyer up, he's burnt toast on day old bread.
Here's another video, "sport". Check it out so you can report to me on what it says. If it's interesting enough, I might view it.
Wow, poor ol' Hannity and all the GOP supporters really got tricked by whoever made that fake vid....
Originally Posted by jdm953
I just went and checked the reports about what Bundy was supposed to have said and compared it to the video.Bundy never said blacks were better off as slaves.Its a lie.
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by isaac
HUH? Listen to the video, sport.
Here's the lesson. If Bundy doesn't STFU, and lawyer up, he's burnt toast on day old bread.
Here's another video, "sport". Check it out so you can report to me on what it says. If it's interesting enough, I might view it.
I have driven past the projects in a few big cities.Living there would be a horrible life.I can see where Bundy would wonder if slavery might be better.Grass dosnt grow in the projects because the ground is packed hard as concrete from being walked on 24 hours a day.Some years back we did a remodel on a fast food chicken place across the street from govt.housing in Dallas.Had the painters patch the bullet holes in the front of the building.Next morning we had new bullet holes.You would have to see how those people live.Hell Im not sure which is better.You would have to see it.
I would say Mr Bundy has got a bad case of the I am in the spotlight. Happens a lot when common people get a lot of attention. They tend to talk about what they shouldn't. Doesn't make him a bad man. Doesn't mean that feds should be able to take his cow's now. And it doesn't mean he is wrong. Just sometimes speaking your opinion can get you in trouble especially when you aren't a wordsmith. Lib's have been waiting for something like this and now they are going to tear him up. Lesson in this is that if you are ever in the spotlight keep ur mouth shut.
I still think he was getting the shaft by the Feds and he was correct in standing his ground.
"disclaimer this was posted on the quick reply option not aimed at anyone"
quote=4100fps]..It's funny to watch the fleas bail from the dead dog. Laffin! Hey Rock where are you on this? [/quote]
Jeez.....i must be a racist because i follow Bundy's line of thinking. Before the central gov got involved in the African-American family during the War on Poverity at least the black kids knew who their dad was.......now a family of black kids don't know ANY of their daddies. (if you get my drift)
One of the things i have been expecting in the progression of the story of Mr. Bundy, was what i expected to be the marginalization, demonizing, ridiculing of him and his family by the left, big govt. bunch. And their psycopants. Seems like it is right on schedule, got to make fun of them first, before you send in the troops.
I just went and checked the reports about what Bundy was supposed to have said and compared it to the video.Bundy never said blacks were better off as slaves.Its a lie.
Lots of folks here are falling for the leftist propaganda, though, aren't they?
He better hurry up and make another video of himself riding a horse and carrying the Flag.
Travis
LMFAO!
Maybe the dude is smarter than we think. He knows he has no case so he's angling for a lucrative contract with the idiots at Faux News for an anchor spot. Ought to help pay the bills...
It's funny to watch the fleas bail from the dead dog. Laffin! Hey Rock where are you on this?
You are a special kind of dumb, aren't you?
I already weighed in on this, this morning.
But since you want, I'll expand on it. It'll be over your head and you won't understand, but I really don't care if you do or don't.
"Where I am on this" is simple. A country boy says "negro" on TV and everyone. especially liberals get their panties in a wad. OK. You wanna get upset, then get upset. That's your opinion... You are welcome to it.
As I said, he was always in serious need of a spokesman and a lawyer. The first thing either or both would have told him as a condition of working with him is simple too. STFU. He didn't. So now he deals with that. But, in all honesty, Cliven probably thought he WAS being very PC when he made those statements. I have been around old ranchers that would have laid the bat to the ball if they had been asked about such matters. But, they are not in the limelight, so it doesn't matter.
I'll tell you where I am with the whole issue too....
The same place I was yesterday.
Whatever Bundy said or did doesn't excuse the behavior of the government in the way that they dealt with the situation. Nor does it excuse them from the laws they broke, or the Constitutional violations they flagrantly and arrogantly imposed on American Citizens. Nothing that happened today or tomorrow will change those facts. No matter how much they try and discredit Bundy, the violations by our own government still need the attention it takes to see if a remedy and prevention of future incursions can be had.
I also would rather have a crusty old rancher continue to graze that whole area than to hand it to the special interests of a tortoise group, or made into a Garden of Eden to make the greenies feel better about destroying such large tracts of desert for solar farms that are a proven hoax by the government in the first place. Americans need beef. They need oil, and coal and lumber, and copper and lead.... This administration does NOT have the best public interest in mind when they do away with what purposes the public lands were created for in the first damn place.
So. Now you know where I stand.
No amount of distraction by liberals takes my eyes off of the real ball. Nor does it hide who is pitching.
I just went and checked the reports about what Bundy was supposed to have said and compared it to the video.Bundy never said blacks were better off as slaves.Its a lie.
Lots of folks here are falling for the leftist propaganda, though, aren't they?
exactly, this is nothing more than slight of hand leftist BS. rather than being the rancher the gov came to force off his land and he stood defiant, he is now the poster child for "racist right wing ranchers and farmers" the right is so gung ho on back peddling they missed the fact that the whole thing is a smoke and mirrors bit to hide the real truth in what happened. alienate Clive and you can go kill him with impunity because no one will stand beside him if they think they might be labeled a racist. most on here jump on that bandwagon proving why the right is weak. congrats to those who bowed to the race card again. we're screwed six ways from sunday. this was nothing more than a ploy to discredit him and all who stood with him.
I have seen grown men walking across the courtyard in the projects with women and kids everywhere.Pull his d$$k out and start pissing and not miss a step.Its insane.
exactly, this is nothing more than slight of hand leftist BS. rather than being the rancher the gov came to force off his land and he stood defiant, he is now the poster child for "racist right wing ranchers and farmers" the right is so gung ho on back peddling they missed the fact that the whole thing is a smoke and mirrors bit to hide the real truth in what happened. alienate Clive and you can go kill him with impunity because no one will stand beside him if they think they might be labeled a racist. most on here jump on that bandwagon proving why the right is weak. congrats to those who bowed to the race card again. we're screwed six ways from sunday. this was nothing more than a ploy to discredit him and all who stood with him.
his land?
your sig line seems to apply to this situation:
"Everything happens for a reason, sometimes that reason is that you're stupid and make bad decisions."
What ever caused Bundy's problem with the government... it wasn't the cost of the grazing lease... he'd been paying it all along since they obtained it in 1954. And the rate had actually decreased by 40 percent from 1980 to 2004, while grazing fees charged by private ranchers increased by 78 percent for the same period.
His refusal to pay the fees apparently was only due to the BLM's management of the leases within the area, which he fully understood and agreed to... and which included nothing that wasn't voted into place by congress.
Was he too dumb to think that he could stop paying the fees all together suddenly and nothing would be done.
Apparently for nearly 20 years it worked, but in the long run he and his family is still going to loose.
Republican Sens. Rand Paul and Dean Heller on Thursday both denounced as �offensive� and �racist� Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy�s recent comments about African-Americans.
�His remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him,� Paul said in a statement, according to Business Insider. Continue Reading Text Size
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�Senator Heller completely disagrees with Mr. Bundy�s appalling and racist statements, and condemns them in the most strenuous way,� Heller spokeswoman Chandler Smith said in a statement.
Both Paul and Heller have previously defended Bundy, the Nevada rancher who is in a standoff against the federal government. Heller has referred to his supporters as �patriots.�
(Also on POLITICO: Rand Paul makes a muddle)
But on Thursday, The New York Times reported Bundy using the word �Negro� and wondering if blacks were better off as slaves.
�They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton,� Bundy said over the weekend, according to the Times. �And I�ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn�t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.�
Appearing on �CBS This Morning� on Thursday, Texas Gov. Rick Perry said he hadn�t seen Bundy�s comments. The Republican called Bundy a �side story� in the greater issue of how the federal government deals with public and private land.
Fox News host Greta Van Susteren on Thursday released a statement on her official blog: �Let me make this plain: I condemn what Cliven Bundy said about African Americans.� Van Susteren has devoted significant time on her program to the Bundy issue, interviewing both Paul and Carol Bundy, Cliven�s wife.
(Also on POLITICO: Bundy and BLM: 10 things to know)
�Morning Joe� co-host and former GOP Rep. Joe Scarborough on his program Thursday morning slammed Bundy and Republicans who have embraced him. He said that Bundy is demanding �a right that no other rancher in America has.�
The host appeared to be equally upset with conservatives that have championed Bundy over the course of the past few weeks. �There�s nothing conservative about this man,� Scarborough said. �This is where nihilism about the federal government gets you in trouble every time.�
Comparing Bundy to George Zimmerman, Scarborough continued: �They basically pick their friends based on who their �enemies� are. In this case, a lot of people in conservative media have raced to this guy�s defense. They must be feeling very exposed this morning.�
Mo Elleithee, communications director for the Democratic National Committee, took to Twitter to criticize Paul for what he thought was a slow response. �So @SenRandPaul took 12 hours to condemn Bundy�s racist rant. 12 hours. I dunno about him, but my outrage was pretty instant,� Elleithee wrote.
The new poster boy for the conservative voter! It is amazing how many conservatives jump on board of every clown who pretends to challenge the government before they vet the kook. Can you say 9-9-9 Herman Cain?
Quote
"And I�ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things"
That will leave mark! Just another angry old white man looking for his government handout!
I think I can understand what Bundy was trying to say, Even though is came out terribly wrong. I've heard old Ranchers talk this way a lot. It was bound to happen, and a matter of time.
Is what really bothers me is the fact that they (negros) are wronged and chastised for taking a subsidy thrown to them, (the system make them slaves where they could be out picking cotton), but he has no clue he's in the same boat. The difference is he really feels entitled to his subsidy, and feels he should have MORE, then proudly parades the American flag around all the while pissing on it. Unbelievable.
What ever caused Bundy's problem with the government... it wasn't the cost of the grazing lease... he'd been paying it all along since they obtained it in 1954. And the rate had actually decreased by 40 percent from 1980 to 2004, while grazing fees charged by private ranchers increased by 78 percent for the same period.
His refusal to pay the fees apparently was only due to the BLM's management of the leases within the area, which he fully understood and agreed to... and which included nothing that wasn't voted into place by congress.
Was he too dumb to think that he could stop paying the fees all together suddenly and nothing would be done.
Apparently for nearly 20 years it worked, but in the long run he and his family is still going to loose.
Phil
I don't think he lost. He got free grazing for 20 years on a herd five or six times the size he would have been allowed to have had he played by the rules the BLM set for him. Heck, his ranch is at least partially owned by a family trust, and not the revocable kind (although there is one of those too) so it might not even be subject to a judgment.
At this point, it is difficult to see a way that he comes out of this worse financially than he would have if he had reduced his herd to 150 animals in 1993.
It was a really dumb time to come out and get those cows. Let them drop all those calves and go get them this winter after they have grown up and gained some weight. It would have been better all the way around.
Is what really bothers me is the fact that they (negros) are wronged and chastised for taking a subsidy thrown to them, (the system make them slaves where they could be out picking cotton), but he has no clue he's in the same boat.
At least ol' Cliven was producing something of value and worth. He was actually working.
That's all I'm going to say about 'race' on the internet.
Should Cliven have paid his lease all the while fighting the Feds and their bullchit excuse to retire his lease(grazing)?
Yes.
Do I like the way the Federal gov't has been running for the last 20years? (since I started paying attention anyway..)
No.
Just cause you ain't paranoid don't mean they ain't out to get you......grin
It was a really dumb time to come out and get those cows. Let them drop all those calves and go get them this winter after they have grown up and gained some weight. It would have been better all the way around.
everything about the whole mess could have been done better, but when you defy the courts, you do not get to choose how or when enforcement will be applied...
I'll say right here what I said all along, Bundy is less wrong in all this than the government. I think the people who went out there and supported him did a great and commendable thing and I enjoyed seeing the government slapped down. I don't think he should have opened his mouth on the race issue and not only painted himself into a corner, but also made his supporters look bad, including one of the best chances we have, Rand Paul. Bundy's remarks are free speech though and they do nothing to alter the overall situation. The government is still more wrong than Bundy and it was still good to see some ragtag militiamen force them to retreat.
One of the problems with that statement is........any cursory examination of the posts on this forum will show that the majority of the opposition to Bundy are definitely not "commie trolls".
And that opposition was less about an over reach of government than the overt celebration of Bundy and his intentional position.
There isn't any "high ground" to celebrate here. Pity is............there never was.
exactly, this is nothing more than slight of hand leftist BS. rather than being the rancher the gov came to force off his land and he stood defiant, he is now the poster child for "racist right wing ranchers and farmers" the right is so gung ho on back peddling they missed the fact that the whole thing is a smoke and mirrors bit to hide the real truth in what happened. alienate Clive and you can go kill him with impunity because no one will stand beside him if they think they might be labeled a racist. most on here jump on that bandwagon proving why the right is weak. congrats to those who bowed to the race card again. we're screwed six ways from sunday. this was nothing more than a ploy to discredit him and all who stood with him.
his land?
your sig line seems to apply to this situation:
"Everything happens for a reason, sometimes that reason is that you're stupid and make bad decisions."
still Butt hurt I see, his grazing land, he held the right to graze it. not surprised you showed your ignorance by taking "his" to mean he owns it personally. talk to rachers who lease from the feds and they will use the same term often, along with theirs, hers and mine. maybe take a break for a while....
not 'his' land by any stretch, but twist it around any way you wish...
see, I have been one of those ranchers with a grazing lease for a good chunk of my life. never called it my land. (until we bought the land, anyway)
in the context of the statement 'the feds tried to force him from his land', that 'his' is huge. the only reason for the inaccuracy is to distort the facts or ignorance.
exactly, this is nothing more than slight of hand leftist BS. rather than being the rancher the gov came to force off his land and he stood defiant, he is now the poster child for "racist right wing ranchers and farmers" the right is so gung ho on back peddling they missed the fact that the whole thing is a smoke and mirrors bit to hide the real truth in what happened. alienate Clive and you can go kill him with impunity because no one will stand beside him if they think they might be labeled a racist. most on here jump on that bandwagon proving why the right is weak. congrats to those who bowed to the race card again. we're screwed six ways from sunday. this was nothing more than a ploy to discredit him and all who stood with him.
his land?
your sig line seems to apply to this situation:
"Everything happens for a reason, sometimes that reason is that you're stupid and make bad decisions."
still Butt hurt I see, his grazing land, he held the right to graze it. not surprised you showed your ignorance by taking "his" to mean he owns it personally. talk to rachers who lease from the feds and they will use the same term often, along with theirs, hers and mine. maybe take a break for a while....
When you sign a note on a loan for a house you refet to it as "yours" as well. However if you quit paying your mortgage payment. It quickly becoms the Bank's.
I refer to my kids as "mine" as well but I do not own them.
just like the street in front of my house I will often refer to it as "our street" yet I do not actually believe that I personally own it.
I agree, now take the same house, someone forces you to live in only one room of it even though you have been living in all of it. you call BS and stay in the whole house and still keep trying to pay your mortgage but they refuse to take your money, fast forward 20 years then they come to kick you out for not paying for it.
If I read this correctly, the guy (apparently) over-grazed by five or six times the land's carrying capacity on OUR public land, which hurts the land and wildlife, and then wants to freeload and not pay the unreasonably low fee? And we're supposed to be sympathetic?
If I read this correctly, the guy (apparently) over-grazed by five or six times the land's carrying capacity on OUR public land, which hurts the land and wildlife, and then wants to freeload and not pay the unreasonably low fee? And we're supposed to be sympathetic?
Where do you see this?
Just curious, because at 1000 acres per cow, even in the desert is pretty land friendly. It's kinda hard to stay in the ranching business for generations when you don't take care of the land, and especially the grass. Are you particularly familiar with ranching techniques in the desert? I have seen folks that ranched in other areas of the country come to the desert and buy a ranch and last 2-4 years before losing it due them trying to apply the same ranching techniques they used where they came from to where the desert ranch is.
I was referring to this by JoeBob to Greyghost from 7:34 PM yesterday...
Originally Posted By: Greyghost What ever caused Bundy's problem with the government... it wasn't the cost of the grazing lease... he'd been paying it all along since they obtained it in 1954. And the rate had actually decreased by 40 percent from 1980 to 2004, while grazing fees charged by private ranchers increased by 78 percent for the same period.
His refusal to pay the fees apparently was only due to the BLM's management of the leases within the area, which he fully understood and agreed to... and which included nothing that wasn't voted into place by congress.
Was he too dumb to think that he could stop paying the fees all together suddenly and nothing would be done.
Apparently for nearly 20 years it worked, but in the long run he and his family is still going to loose.
Phil
(Joe Bob replies)... I don't think he lost. He got free grazing for 20 years on a herd five or six times the size he would have been allowed to have had he played by the rules the BLM set for him. Heck, his ranch is at least partially owned by a family trust, and not the revocable kind (although there is one of those too) so it might not even be subject to a judgment.
At this point, it is difficult to see a way that he comes out of this worse financially than he would have if he had reduced his herd to 150 animals in 1993.
If I read this correctly, the guy (apparently) over-grazed by five or six times the land's carrying capacity on OUR public land, which hurts the land and wildlife, and then wants to freeload and not pay the unreasonably low fee? And we're supposed to be sympathetic?
Where do you see this?
Just curious, because at 1000 acres per cow, even in the desert is pretty land friendly. It's kinda hard to stay in the ranching business for generations when you don't take care of the land, and especially the grass. Are you particularly familiar with ranching techniques in the desert? I have seen folks that ranched in other areas of the country come to the desert and buy a ranch and last 2-4 years before losing it due them trying to apply the same ranching techniques they used where they came from to where the desert ranch is.
Another poster registered in '12 who only has 79 posts. lol
If I read this correctly, the guy (apparently) over-grazed by five or six times the land's carrying capacity on OUR public land, which hurts the land and wildlife, and then wants to freeload and not pay the unreasonably low fee? And we're supposed to be sympathetic?
No, he was also restricted to 158,000 acres in 1993. He ignored that and has been grazing on over 600,000.
Although, I've never really understood how they ever got cows to pay attention to grazing allotment boundaries. It seems if we could patent that process, we could put barbwire manufacturers out of business.
I was referring to this by JoeBob to Greyghost from 7:34 PM yesterday...
Originally Posted By: Greyghost What ever caused Bundy's problem with the government... it wasn't the cost of the grazing lease... he'd been paying it all along since they obtained it in 1954. And the rate had actually decreased by 40 percent from 1980 to 2004, while grazing fees charged by private ranchers increased by 78 percent for the same period.
His refusal to pay the fees apparently was only due to the BLM's management of the leases within the area, which he fully understood and agreed to... and which included nothing that wasn't voted into place by congress.
Was he too dumb to think that he could stop paying the fees all together suddenly and nothing would be done.
Apparently for nearly 20 years it worked, but in the long run he and his family is still going to loose.
Phil
(Joe Bob replies)... I don't think he lost. He got free grazing for 20 years on a herd five or six times the size he would have been allowed to have had he played by the rules the BLM set for him. Heck, his ranch is at least partially owned by a family trust, and not the revocable kind (although there is one of those too) so it might not even be subject to a judgment.
At this point, it is difficult to see a way that he comes out of this worse financially than he would have if he had reduced his herd to 150 animals in 1993.
To bring you up to date to perhaps clarify your over grazing question:
In 1993 Bundy had a grazing permit on 600,000 ac. The BLM cut that to 150,000. From 600 cows to 150 cows. (Not enough for a family to live on.)
At that point Bundy continued to graze the 600,000 ac with 600 cows.
It wasn't an increase of cows per acre. Never was.
did anyone hear bundy say it ...or is this a democrate "race card" plant ???????????
Didn't you watch my vid?
can't do vida on my satilite...but I have seen it since my post ...what a dumdazz...even if he was "trying to say something -he sure did not xplain it well....
He flies the American flag but won't recognize the fed's control of his land and he wants nothing to do with the federal government.
He's played the BS card by saying he wanted to pay his grazing fees to the state/county but they aren't the authority he owes the money to.
He goes on a race tirade and opposes people that leech off the system but he hasn't paid his grazing fees for 20 years.
Bundy and wife have been going on and on about the poor little dogeys like they're family pets. Holding a dead calf while being interviewed was flat out tacky.
I get it. The feds went way overboard rounding up his cattle during calving season but trying justify his cause by garnering sympathy doesn't address the original problem. He never mentions the turtle issue that started this whole thing and that fundamental issue is his only hope of keeping control of the land.
He was screwed by the feds in 1993 when they reduced the number of cattle allowed to graze on the land and unless he gets the courts to reconsider that ruling he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Everything he's done since then hasn't helped his cause.
Just curious, because at 1000 acres per cow, even in the desert is pretty land friendly.
And browsing around, I haven't come up with a single study that shows moderated grazing seriously affects tortoise populations. The biggest effect, tho not quantified, was that cattle can collapse tortoise burrows, which pre-supposes that these competent diggers have no natural recourse for that happening. Apparently competition for forage wasn't as big as one might think.
The other effects were even more indirect, like introduced weeds being spread by grazing, as if those weeds wouldn't spread anyhow.
What has not been addressed is why tortoises were still a common thing even after the grazing abuses of the old free range days in the late 1800's early 1900's.
I'm not repeating anything, and I'm not talking about what Bundy said or didn't say.
If you go back and read my first post on the subject, you'll see that.
The only thing I commented on was Derby Dude's statement to the effect that he agreed that black people in the US would probably be better off as slaves.
I read the text of what Bundy said, and I do think the gist of it was taken out of context and seized on by the MSM, who definitely have an axe to grind here. I think I understand what he was trying to say, and that is, they traded one form of slavery for another.
If he'd just said that and stopped, he may have been OK.
But to go on and on, talking about how they "never learned to pick cotton," and "sit around with nothing to do??"
That's just foolish.
So I agree with the title of the thread. How many times have we seen someone say something like this that's racially charged and get lambasted for it? What on earth was he thinking?
Does he really think people want to hear his philosophy on subjects like this? The whole thing has obviously gone to his head.
Just curious, because at 1000 acres per cow, even in the desert is pretty land friendly.
Folks: Things are not quite as simple as acres per cow or cows per acre in desert realms.
I've been involved with cattle grazing studies where we tracked cattle movements via GPS collars in individual pastures as large as 366 square miles.
Cattle are extremely dependent on water, and it's rare to find them foraging more than about 1.5 miles from a water source. In the most extreme case (the 366 sq mile pasture), the cattle visited only about 15% of the total area available to them over a two month long grazing season. The most extreme measure obtained was a cow that ventured 4.5 miles out from the nearest water. Plotting of her data (hourly fixes) clearly showed her going on about a 36 hour walkabout where she ranged out, spent the night, and then hiked back to her habitual haunts. With only rare exceptions, desert grazing at it's best still involves areas of extreme over use and absolute non use within a single pasture.
We will always have a pie of extreme use around water.
An often suggested fix for overgrazing is simply to reduce stock numbers. This may rectify things out at the most extreme edges of the pie, but the remaining stock will still concentrate their use around water. If one wants to run more cows, then he must develop more water.
Livestock distribution issues have and will always be a significant thing for western stockmen. Over several years and studies in desert realms the most significant factors affecting cattle distribution were: elevation above or below surface water, horizontal distance to surface water, forage quality at specific sites (they like good green grass), and degree of slope (they will avoid steep slopes if possible).
Wildlife (deer, pronghorn, bighorn, elk, wild horses, etc) all exhibit the same behaviors although the dimensions and order of affecting variables do vary (i.e slope is meaningless to bighorn). In eastern Oregon we have millions acres one can search for years and never see a deer or pronghorn even though the groceries and cover are there. Add water to the equation, and they will come.
Desert grazing at it's best still involves areas of extreme over use and absolute non use within a single pasture.
Whereas the tortoise, independent of permanent water, famously hoards its water in its unusually large bladder.
This might explain the lack of simple black and white studies of tortoise populations under grazing vs. no grazing.
I'll say it again; I am Joe Conservationist, but arbitrarily denying folks their livelihood on such blatantly incomplete data is at best irresponsible and in the long-run a losing strategy.
Just curious, because at 1000 acres per cow, even in the desert is pretty land friendly.
Folks: Things are not quite as simple as acres per cow or cows per acre in desert realms.
I've been involved with cattle grazing studies where we tracked cattle movements via GPS collars in individual pastures as large as 366 square miles.
Cattle are extremely dependent on water, and it's rare to find them foraging more than about 1.5 miles from a water source. In the most extreme case (the 366 sq mile pasture), the cattle visited only about 15% of the total pasture area available to them over a two month long grazing season. Desert grazing at it's best still involves areas of extreme over use and absolute non use within a single pasture.
We will always have a pie of extreme use around water.
An often suggested fix for overgrazing is simply to reduce stock numbers. This may rectify things out at the most extreme edges of the pie, but the remaining stock will still concentrate their use around water. If one wants to run more cows, then he must develop more water.
Livestock distribution issues have and will always be a significant thing for western stockmen. Over several years and studies in desert realms the most significant factors affecting cattle distribution were: elevation above or below surface water, horizontal distance to surface water, forage quality at specific sites (they like good green grass), and degree of slope (they will avoid steep slopes if possible).
Wildlife (deer, pronghorn, bighorn, elk, wild horses, etc) all exhibit the same behaviors although the dimensions and order of affecting variables do vary (i.e slope is meaningless to bighorn). In eastern Oregon we have millions acres that one can search for years and never see a deer or pronghorn even though the groceries are there. Add water to the equation and they will come.
Good info and Thanks for posting that.
All of that comes down to one thing though. Was or is Bundy overgrazing the land?
AFAIK, that's not the issue that started this whole mess. It was protection of desert tortoise habitat that the BLM used as a basis for reducing Bundy's grazing "rights".
IMHO, if Bundy can prove that he's been a good steward of the land, that he's not overgrazing, that turtles and cows can get along, then the feds should allow his family's cattle operation to continue.
There's no doubt that the feds have been heavy handed but this is something that can only be settled in a court of law. Bundy can whine about all he wants about the federal govt, state control of land, ride around waving an American flag, and give idiotic interviews but it will get him nowhere.
If Bundy is too stupid to go to court and seek a fair resolution, including re-payment of past grazing fees, then he deserves to lose it all.
I've just about lost all sympathy for his cause. Stupid people that do stupid things deserve what they get.
All of that comes down to one thing though. Was or is Bundy overgrazing the land?
Without a first hand look at the property, I'd not even speculate.
There is still the issue though of unpaid fees. Had one been screwing the private sector to that degree for that many years, he would have had his assets taken and cleaned out of business in short order. I'm actually amazed government has exhibited its present degree of patience. People can raise families and die in less time. If the IRS would exhibit that same degree of patience with me, I'd quit paying taxes tomorrow, up my standard of living substantially, and die before they could collect.
Lastly, the turtle is small spuds compared to what may happen to us public land users if sage grouse get the official T & E label. I think review is coming within the year. Management, access, and who knows how many other activities will likely be affected on tens of millions of acres.
That's why so many people are working to find a solution to the sage grouse issue before it becomes a bigger problem. Some of the biggest corporations involved with extraction of resources are not supportive of any solutions, other than for sportsman to stop killing them, and have made that quit clear.
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