Have to pause now and again to keep perspective about the unfolding debacle that is the RNC. Yesterday's concrete is today's taffy and it seems that the 'truth' is whatever they decide to call it from day to day.

I marvel slightly at Trump's recent surge in the polls, but it really shouldn't surprise all that much. Mainstream RNC players are so out of touch with their base it's stupid. Perhaps as noted elsewhere here at the 'Fire, the Trump phenomenon is based on a nation/base grown weary of PC and "sensitivity" and whose life matters anyway? He is crass on the best of days, not terribly well versed in the machinations of Congress and says it like he sees it. Reality speak is it?

So, he tells America Mexicans are bad mojo. Crudely stated, but by definition they are violators of our borders, sovereignty and laws. Other than that I'm sure they are decent people. Except for the ones who are repeat felons, traffickers, and a general burden on society.

And John McCain ain't no hero? Say it ain't so Donald! But he might have a point. Take a minute or three to educate yourself about McCain's illustrious military career, then make your own decision.

http://www.pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm

He goes on ignore until a REAL candidate steps up to the plate. Whatever good he's done to point out the misgivings of the anointed is overshadowed by his arrogance,lack of tact and overall unelectability.

Wouldn't argue that for a second. He is, as recently opined, a jackass. What does that make the other candidates who trail him in the polls?

My point goes to a reality check about McCain and his legend more than hugs and kisses for Trump. Truth is, from my perspective, they deserve each other. Politically speaking of course.

I flew with more than a couple of units back in the day that exhibited some of Johnny's traits in the zone. They got themselves shot down too, or just simply did something brilliant like controlled flight into terrain. They were not heroes anymore than I am, but you know that.

This is a hero:

http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=2107

McCain is irrelevant. He's not running and it gives the lieberals more fodder to diminish conservatives to focus on him and point out his shortcomings. Not sure if that was Trump's intent, but he's a loose cannon who doesn't care if he destroys his own ship, and that might be his intent. He won't go down with it, that's certain.

wasn't McCain involved with, or even responsible for that fire on the Forrestal?

Interesting read, Dan. I read it over twice and I have no major issues with any of it. A couple of observations though. Most of the POWs I had the honor to rub elbows with in Pensacola, were bagged by AAA and not SAMs, even more so if they were Attack guys or F-4s doing strike missions and not CAP. This makes perfect sense as SAMs were primarily designed for medium (>15K') to high altitude weapons. Witness the Randy Cunningham shootdown after his famous dogfight with the legendary Col Toon (who was probably a Russian or CHICOM) he was bagged at fairly high altitude. Anyway (hell, you were there!) the gooks usually fired SAMs in salvos (and more often than not in a "dumb" mode) just to get the numbers up there and force our guys to do exactly as trained, barrel roll and Split S to get away, but that would easily bring them down to a literal curtain of AAA, so McCain's shootdown by AAA is completely feasible.
As to the ejection, I have to call bullshit on the assumption.

The airplane I flew (Viking) used the same seat as the A-4 (ESCAPAC) and unlike the Martin-Baker seat (like Pugs used)that used "stirrups" to bring in your legs, was notorious for inflicting flailing injuries and in that situation, i.e. 3500' AGL is really too damned close to the deck, especially if your sink rate is excessive, meaning if you have to go, GO! and compounded by violent, high "G" maneuvers, his injuries were not necessarily as a result of poor ejection posture, but rather the criticality of the situation. I think (my opinion based on my limited experience)McCain probably got a "hard on" when he saw the target, bored in with the bombs, "pickled" at say 8K feet then bottomed out at 3500 and got bagged (note: 57MM AAA is good to at least 15K if I remember).

On the segment about the Forrestal fire and the so-called prank about making an A-4's engine blow flames, I have to call bullshit on that one. I have a few hours in the TA-4 (same engine) and as you probably know, the A-4 has no burner, so the only way to even attempt to do this would be to dump excessive amounts of fuel into the combustion section before punching the igniters, resulting in an engine fire. I just don't think ANYBODY would be that dumb.

Regarding Stockdale, nobody "wins" an award for valor and that really rubs me the wrong way and it would be interesting to dig into the author deeper. I've yapped about his mishap records before and won't do so again here, suffice to say, if he got single seat Jets, his flying performance COULD NOT have been that bad, and in fact, I'd wager they were quite good. Too bad I'm retired or I could have looked up his flight grades in Pensacola (I might do just that next time I'm there, they reside at the Museum and are open to the public for the most part).

Lastly, I know McCain's roommate at the Naval Academy and flight school quite well (my best friend's FIL)and I will send him a link to the story and ask him to comment. You all have my word I will report back if he responds. Jorge

The current crop of Republicrats are as interesting and captivating as stale beer. There's not a warm ember in any of the bellies of Republicrat herd, the best they can work up is saying 'I'm not him. '
The Dems are putting up a faintly warm corpse in the personage of Hillery. And none of the the Republicrats are mocking her. They are afraid of her.
Who was that Mormon waste of time and money that the Republicrats ran against Obama last time. Do you remember he had Obama on the ropes during a debate and did not finish him off. That Republicrat deserved to loose. Or if you are into conspiracies He was not supposed to win by agreement with the Dems

Jim

Maybe I am wrong, but from my perspective Admiral Stockdale is a hero, McCain not so much.

I never cared for McCain as a politician or a person. He always seems to be talking down to everyone, very condescending.

But I will let better men than me judge his military career.

Trump has gone on record and said he will NOT run third party.

He may walk that back some time in the future, but if thats true, he has to know he cant win with this rhetoric, wont win and wont get the GOPs establishments nomination, by saying he wont run 3rd party. (Not that I want him to)

That makes him a spoiler, destroyer of any momentum the Right had with the debacle of Her Travesty's credibility and image problems.

Perhaps he is just a Trojan horse, playing Donan the Destroyer, running interference for the Left, and giving Hiliary time out of the frying pan to coast.

His statement makes him irrelevant.

Reality show candidate for reality show voters.

Jorge, I don't have the background to comment on the SAM/AAA thing, or ejection theory, nor would I offer any opinion about the Forrestal fire. Some of the assertions seem a little thin to me regardless.

What I've read in the past is consistent with the linked blog on point of his academic credentials, previous flight/accident record and his own words. He was a cowboy, little more. Still a legend in his own mind.

Have few comments on his tour in the Hilton. Pretty much sucked start to finish I'd say. Survival in that circumstance is a matter of determination more than anything. There is the potential for doing it with honor or otherwise. I'm unaware of allegations that McCain's manner was anything less than honorable and I'm certainly not in a position to judge otherwise.

My personal view is that honor and courage, though oft related are distinctly different things. Heroism is another separate and distinct subject matter. I got a few awards in Nam. Allegations of heroism were just that and little more. I thought I could get away with it and admit to little more than creative thinking in regards to aircraft maneuvers. That includes the one with the V device. Got a Purple Heart too, but it was a matter of wrong place/time, not heroics. The fellow LaPointe I linked above, he was a no chitt bonafide hero more than once. It was an honor to serve with him.

Well let's see, on the Democratic ticket you have Hillary for your choice. Though others may try, she's probably the one who will get it.

On the Republican side you have a bunch of not so distinguished illuminaries who have much smaller testicles than Hillary. I think ya'll ought to think about Trump again.

Can't argue with anything you wrote Dan, especially the Cowboy and Legend monikers for sure. As to the hero part, I guess the language needs several levels of that words is one idea and your mate certainly deserves that and more. As to McCain, I'll say what I've said many times, his awards were blessed by Stockdale and the other SROs at the Hilton, so to me rates it. Cheers, J

Trump is a distraction whose motives are questionable. To be called a "jackass" by McNutty's bhutt buddy was expected.
This little sideshow does NOT make the "other candidates" anything.
This little sideshow does NOT make the "other candidates" anything.
(except for Rick Perry who "flinched" (and can disqualify himself right now) and McNutty's bhutt buddy (who is a disgrace to South Carolina)

McNutty's attack (calling people "crazies") was just McNutty being himself and inserting himself into a primary when he should keep his (hero) nose out of it.
He is a bratty old man who started life as a bratty kid, his Naval parents should have drowned him when they had a chance and saved the Country from his stupid "acting" out.
___________

Ok Trumpy we get the Messican thing and McNutty being a bogus hero.
What else you got ?
What about all the other third worlder flooding our Country ?
What about the Federal Gov. Ignoring the 10th Amendnent ?
What does 230AI mean ?
Have you done business with Larry Root ?
How will building a 5 story trumptower in Havre MT improve the test scores of Asian immigrant children in DesMoines IA ?
What else ya got Trumpasse? Hmmm?

I suppose we need to define "hero", especially in our Pop Culture world of today.

Audie Murphy was a hero by any yardstick. Alvin York, the same.

For some, a hero is anyone who served.

For others, it could be anyone who serves and agrees with me politically. The term is bandied about without thought or complex meaning these days. With the political and cultural polarization we now have, it seems that anyone I like is a "hero" and all of your people suck. It is unfortunate.

ANYONE that can survive what McCain did at the hands of the North Vietnamese, deserves a tip of the hat. Vast majority of us just could not have done it.
That said, we need to judge the man on his life after that event. There, his efforts are sadly lacking.

Five years of hero vs. 40 years of villain.

People can weigh that however they like.

He was on the Forrestal.

No, he had no responsibility for the fire.




Travis

here's the thing though

For the record, I thought Trump was a joke at first, then he started saying the things that I've wanted a politician to say.

I realize its just a spec in the moment and if I bothered to look at Trump in a timeline of over 10 or 15 years I'd think he's a horrible choice

But lets look at where we are in politics now

Barak Obama was a single term senator from corrupt as hell chicago, with a vague past, admitted cocaine use, and a list of contacts that ranged from domestic terrorist to socialists. Not to mention he sounded like a damn Muslim.

He went up against ...who are we saying is a war hero? Oh yea, John McCain and kicked his ass.

yes, America was fed up with republicans at the time and Obama was sure to take advantage of it by beating the drum on the war and the economy - even though he was ill equipped and uninformed about how to solve either one.

Now, guess what? America is still fed up with republicans and Trump is taking advantage of it by beating the drum on Immigration and the economy - (and who is to say he isn't the most experienced at getting the economy to produce jobs).

So I'm not ready to write off Trump as a joke that is going to flame out.

Right now he is eclipsing - no, he is decimating the field in media exposure and they don't have an answer on how to counter it. And I can't imagine Trump saying anything more offensive at this point (of course he may surprise us all) than John McCain not being a war hero ....

and he went UP in the polls.


If Trump has learned anything, its how to stay in the news.



What is his end game? Is it the presidency or just to derail a bunch of horseshit liars who are pretending to be conservatives? Maybe he was just wants to expose them and doesn't mind blowing a few hundred million in the process

At this point, I don't think its absurd to believe that Trump stays a factor in this presidential race for as long as he wants.

From my view point a hero goes above and beyond what is normally aceptable under extreme conditions. Admiral Stockdale set a high standard while captivity and is definitely a hero resisting the enemy's torture IMHO. McCain endured torture for sure but did not equal Admirial Stockdale's standard in my opinion.

Given Trump's position in the past (and acknowledging anyone has a right to change their minds), you can't unring the liberal bell(s) he rang in the past, not to mention his financial support of Hillary and other democrats, and the fact he's a Wall Street guy and they are solidly in the democrat camp. I like all the stuff he is saying, but I just can't shake the Fifth Column thoughts on him splitting the vote...

I tend to agree with you Jorge, with one caveat. Trump is not stupid, and he likes to make money. I believe he sees the writing on the wall...this country will fail if it continues down the path it has taken. That won't be good for business.

I saw an interview with Rick Perry and he didn't want to but he had to talk about Trump, and worse, he was asked if Trump gets the nomination would you endorse him.

That's the last damn thing Perry wants to do on national TV is talk about him endorsing Trump as the republican nominee (framing his defeat).

He handled it about as best as he could trying desperately to sell why he's the best candidate (as any person running would) and ended with "I'm a republican, I'll support the republican nominee"

Then I hear Christie on the news and he has to talk about Trump, but he handled it a bit better and was able to segueway into taxes in New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey and turned having the highest taxes of the 3 into a positive because he has to work with a democratic house.

That's some slick politician [bleep] there.

Very, good point, Pat. Then again, why does Wall-Street support democrats if they are the seeds of their own destruction? Let's not forget Trump is a New Yorker (as in NY City) and I just can't see conservative beliefs from someone born and bred there.

DING, DING, DING!!!!

For me, a non-combat vet doesn't get to state "I like people that weren't captured" when that same non-combat vet is trying to be the Commander in Chief. That's where my opinion on the matter starts and stops.

Would it keep me from voting for Trump? No. But I didn't like the comment when I evaluate the source and their prior service to this country.

I do not need to define hero and I do not need to evaluate the minutia of Senator McCain's service record. The comment bled over from a personal attack on a POS senator, to a generalized slight regarding men that have been captured in war time.

I still say that at this point Trump is doing more good than harm.



Travis

what did the stock market do under Daddy Bush? Under Bill Clinton? Under Dubya Bush? Under Obama?

Its pretty obvious why Wall-Street supports democrats.

You can point out reasons as to why it happened but you got 25 years history there to go with and it says the stock market booms during democratic presidents.

Wall Streeters want to make their fortune and get out. It's pretty obvious that the gravy train is about to come to a screeching halt if business continues "as usual", which will happen if another establishment type (R or D) takes the reins. There are some real numbers out there and they can't be ignored. 2015 is the first time in 35 years that more businesses have closed their doors in America than have opened them.

Trump just alluded to a third party run if the RNC is not nice to him. What ever the hell that means.

Trump has gone on record in the past and supported both the Clintons and Obama.
Romney was a flip-flopper, but nothing like Trump.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/248910-exclusive-trump-threatens-third-party-run

This would be catastrophic..

McCain has said the same thing.

I'm anxious to see some "undecided" voter polls matching Trump against Hillary.




Travis

Very well stated.

I don't much care for Trump. But it's long past time someone expose that neocon RINO Israel-Firster, McCain. He is why I wouldn't shed a tear were the Republican Party whiter away to Massachusetts to live with Romnut, the 12' 'fire darling.

Where are those two Romnut shills when the desperate need them? I think Steve_No has been ensconced in liberal reeducation precursor to duping the '16 version of Romnuts, and RISJR is playing with Rom's nuts.

Oh god, the convicted felon has shown up. So much for this thread..

Pure genius on Trump's part. His statement was that he has no intentions of running third party, but he might if Republican base supports him and the the RNC refuses to. They normally try to embarrass the candidates they don't like and starve them out. What are they gonna do now?

To you, conservatism is a crime. But then again, there ain't yet been a gun control law you haven't loved.

Who you runnin' with in '16? The Castro District down low is you're flirting with Bernie Sanders.

You guys do make a good couple. Which one of you two wears pants?

Ask your wife. I was going to say your mother, but then I realized you probably have no clue...

fixed it for you

He was treated as a "bumbling old fool" in the V.P. debates by the other candidates and the media....... hence the quotation marks.

Thanks! and I did find the latest in Sans-Souci wear. Apparently, his cell mate, AKA "Roy Big Knob" made him wear this whilst serving him breakfast..

YOur going to get him all horned up with those pics. Isn't it interesting timing that this guy shows up when there is some sort of political firestorm showing. He has to be an Obongo plant

Trump's nothing more than a wealthy attention whore with his compass heading set on destroying any viable candidate for the sake of fame and more fortune.He knows his chances are next to none he'll get the nomination so a 3rd party run does nothing but save face and elect a Dem.

I'm amazed at the groupies here aligning themselves with his "childish" fingernails on a chalkboard rhetoric which turns off voters from both sides of the aisle. Lets face it the country is dumbed down politically with the electorate moving closer to a more moderate middle than we'd like to admit with old right wingers[like most of us] becoming a dying breed. So IMO we might as well roll with what wins and appeals to a broader spectrum of voters.If not we continue to dominate the loser column and might as well chit can the GOP and start over.

Uh...wasn't that the banana in the tailpipe that the Republicans fell for the last two elections?

Now days it's seems to be all about the messenger and not so much the message. Finely tuned hollow promises still resonate with the low IQ masses especially from the lips of charismatic articulate speakers who can sell snowballs to Eskimo's ..McCain/Romney certainly didn't make the cut nor can about 95 percent of the present field either.

If that is true, why is he leading?




Travis

Woody, there ARE no 'credible' GOP candidates, or very few of 'em. Trumps strident message is resonating with Americans who for years, feel that they have NO one in DC representing them.
I'd take Carly or that Wisconsin Gov over Trump personally.

DD: The story's pretty accurate according to my friend. J

He does have valid talking points that certainly give him the present numbers. Personally I don't disagree with some of his message as they resonate to so many tired of the status quo but then again enter the messenger.IMO I think we have a select few savvy candidates waiting for his final self inflicted coup de gras who will step up and make a better showing.

He's running as a republican and as of today republicans have indicated he is what they want.

I'm thinking the lifers need to be taking notes.


Travis

Sam I totally agree but all points are moot unless the anointed one is electable..He certainly isn't besides look at who he represents and buddies with,, just don't think he's right for America in so many ways as a Trump ticket would resoundingly prove it.

if Trump can destroy them then they aren't a viable candidate

jorgeI Can you not say the same thing about "Ronnie" as his wife called him. He went from one side of the aisle to the other. Also seems to me there was a Seal/Wrestler who ran for the Governor of a state, and everybody said he will never make it of course you know the results.
Can't happen should never be in the lexicon Cheers NC

Not really. Reagan was a hell of a lot more polished and although he changed parties and some of his views changed, he was pretty constant once he got serious. I mean, can you really, after watching them both speak, make a comparison? I can't. As to Ventura, he was elected to ONE state, and like Oregon where you live, way to the left overall.

"I'm amazed at the groupies here aligning themselves with his "childish" fingernails on a chalkboard rhetoric which turns off voters from both sides of the aisle."

Folks cheer for Trump in spite of his personality, not because of it.

Eastwood and Selleck are [on paper] less qualified for POTUS than Trump is.

But either of them would double Trump's poll numbers if they announced, and said the same things.

Eastwood and Selleck would have never played the POW card either.

We only need one and there's at least twice that many.

jorgeI

Just cause I live here doesn't mean I agree with Oregon's politics.
All I was pointing out was you never know what the voters will do until they do it. We have people here voting in local and state elections that can't vote in Federal elections go figure that one out!! Actually I am more into the Walker or maybe Cruz(don't think he could win) camp.
Cheers NC

you can like the message without admiring the messenger


I feel the way about Trump currently as I have about Limbaugh for quite some time, I can like 60-70% of what you're saying and still think you're 98% jackazz for the way you deliver your message.


There's other guy's I'd prefer for POTUS, and currently due to the racial strife perpetrated by those occupying the WH, I'd love to see Ben Carson or better yet for me Allen West as prez. Just to get the message back on track, i.e. don't matter yo color homies, just don't break the law, get lippy with LEO, find a job and work it, mind your own biz and your life will be fine.


but I'd certainly be happy with Walker or Cruz or a handful of others. Though truthfully folks, imo, we're too little too late.

to turn this ship around now, the g forces alone might break the thing in half

I didn't mean to say YOU were liberal, but surely you can agree Oregon is and has always been way on the left side of the spectrum.

Thanks for that.

Alfred E. Neuman for Prez!

Trump is exciting and interesting.

And other than Cruz, who would those "select few savvy candidates" be? And why do you refer to them as "select?"

That's a great point Jorge. I'm VERY nervous if the best sounding candidate is an NYC'r.


Always is a long time, but I'd agree it's been the case for last 30yrs. It certainly feels like forever.