https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ

Finicum exits with both hands held high and then appears to put both hands down near his waste area when he is shot. No effort at all to give him aid. Just leave him lay there and bleed to death...

if you make a public statement that you won't be taken alive, you kind of lessen your chances of survival.

I'm no cop, but if I didn't know how many people were still in the truck, and how well armed, and how dumb, or desperate they were, I wouldn't go over to the one guy who got out.

He looked like he was grabbing for something. The guy out in the woods looked to be shooting right toward the road block!

And there was a guy who jumped out just when Finicum ran off the road.

I can imagine Finicum realized the jig was up, and he was going to be locked up for a long time, and just decided to commit suicide by cop.

Sycamore

Look how fast .gov can release video evidence.

Without a doubt the guy got out with his hands in the air. If I was on a jury the two shooters who go down for murder.

Almost run over an FBI agent? Check.

Jump out of vehicle? Check.

Hands in the air? Check.

Reach for a gun in your waist? Check. Anyone who thinks the OSP was wrong in this situation is a hypocrite of the highest order.

What do you figure he was doing when he put his hands down? Scratching his nuts?

Sad outcome for sure but it did look like he was reaching in his waistband for something.

The guy who exited the vehicle had 100 percent control of how this COULD have ended. He obviously chose to end it quickly.

This is sadly the case.

Damn sad. Unfortunate that someone decides to end their life this way.

This was the wrong hill to stand on.

Looked like he got what he asked for. All his choice...

The 18 year old girls account isn't even close. Reaching in his waist band was not a good idea.

With a truck full of armed occupants would you expose yourself?

You must not be watching the same video.

[quote=tjm10025][quote=Ringman]

Maybe he had a cramp, maybe he was injured in the crash, maybe he was loosing his balance in the snow startled by the man coming out of the woods, maybe he was reaching for his phone, maybe he was reacting to being shot.

He did not appear to be a threat. He was grossly outnumbered. Armed law enforcement should be held to the highest standards.

Its funny how 20 people can watch a video and have 20 different interpretations of what they just watched. Why in the hell would anybody give him aid when there is still a truck load of people in the vehicle. Thats just asking to get shot. And reaching for his phone, who the hell is he gonna call? Geez people, get a clue.

He took off after first being stopped after leaving an armed take over of a federal building. He made statements about not being taken alive. He tried to run a road block. He wasn't going to get a traffic warning.

What was the guy doing in the woods? It was an ambush. I can't tell who the shooter was. It looks like the man coming out I'd the woods may have tasered Lavoy. He had something in his left hand.

“I’m not going to end up in prison. I would rather die than be caged. And I’ve lived a good life.” The late Lavoy

Cramp?

I'd think if I was injured, I probably wouldn't be able to RUN from a vehicle. But thats just a guess. And I can remember my wife telling me one time that her cramps were so bad she thought she was dying, well I thought that was a stretch but maybe this guy just proved that cramps can kill you. But I doubt it.

What are the flashes at 35:26 and 35:34? Lavoy is shot and downed at 35:07.

Dude, it was a road block, he fled from a previous stop. The FBI wasn't there to hand out stickers, and LaVoy knew it.

A truck full of armed militia, one of which has sworn not to be taken alive, leads the police on a chase. Nearly runs over an officer attempting to avoid a roadblock. Immediately jumps out of the vehicle with hands up and then drops his hands to his waist when confronted by officers pointing guns at him. You really expect the officers to wait and see if he is reaching for a phone? Why would anyone reach for a phone at that moment? Mom calling at the worst time? Checking the latest posts on the Campfire?

I am glad I am not a cop. They are second guessed by keyboard heroes no matter what they do. If he had stopped the first time and followed the officers directions, he would be out on bail within a week. He wanted to go out like that and got his wish.

Unless being shot in the guts was the cause of putting his hands down, it almost does look like suicide by cop.

Then again, we were not there.

It sounds like you've already made your mind up or had it made up for you. I haven't. I'm looking at what is evidenced in the footage linked by the OP.

If you read the statement on the video, posted in the other thread, it states that those are flash bangs.

Used to disorient people.

Another fail. I actually was leaning hard his way after hearing the 18 year old's account. Watching the video makes things pretty clear to the rational.

Look forward to seeing the ground level videos with sound. With that many LEO, body cams, and dash cams, got to be lots of good footage. When was the first shot fired? Whole lotta questions can be answered with the ground level videos with sound. YMMV

An ambush? Really???

The police tried to stop him several miles down the road, and had him stopped for what, nearly ten minutes before he obviously decided to make a run for it. It seems to me the police prepared for that possibility and were set up with a roadblock down the road.

Everybody in that vehicle had ample opportunity to give up and chose not to do so. Additionally, we've all seen hundreds of pictures of Finicum over the past few weeks. I may be wrong, but I don't recall a single photo of the man in which he wasn't carrying a gun. Why would you then assume he was unarmed during the attempted traffic stop?

Finicum has also been very vocal that he'd die before he'd spend time in prison. With apologies to all of you cop haters and Finicum worshipers, it looks to me like the man was true to his word...

Chris

I have not been following this. What I saw on the video was a guy with his hands in the air get shot. At that time he brought his hands down. If I was on a grand jury the family would get all they ask for.

I didn't watch the video from two days previous where Bundy and Finicum met the lead FBI guy out at the airport. I just read the account that they were there and walked-out of the meeting because the FBI guy in charge would not allow their meeting to be recorded. Was Finicum armed at the meeting, possibly being the last time the FBI would have seen him?

Can't fault the cops on this shooting.

The guy did a piss poor surrender if that's what he was attempting to do.

There were people still in the vehicle who needed to be secured before you can render aid. He damn near ran over one officer. When his hands went to his waist, I'd have shot him too.

To me, it looks as though he exited the vehicle with his hand high (not completely up, but outstretched at shoulder height). I couldn't see whether he had anything in is hands, but it does appear that hid did lower his arms (was this before or after being shot" - can't tell).

I do not know whether the actual stop and shooting was performed by local, state or Federal officers - does anyone know?

Regardless, this is a tragedy.

Yes, this is interesting; I thought the same thing. Aren't such tapes kept as evidence and not released anytime soon?

There is a lot that is tragic in this world.

This doesn't even register.

He could have been attorney general


http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/30/a...-former-columbia-university-rotc-office/

Haven't seen anything from that meeting, so don't know. All the photos I've seen of his media interviews have shown him packing.

Chris

Video just shown on local news. Finicum reached to his jacket pocket more than once before he was shot.

Cops did exactly what needed to be done in this matter. Cops did exactly as Finicum wished them to do.

I realize the FBI is anxious to release as many facts as possible to minimize rumors and speculation, but in releasing this drone footage they really tipped their hand with technology they have at their fingertips. This drone was probably circling WAY the hell up there since day one. Impressive and scary, depending on your view of "progress."

I kind of chuckled to myself when I saw the occupiers manning the fire lookout tower.

I had a feeling that was no where near the tactical 'high ground'.

Hardly a tragedy, screw him.

Not sure drones and that type of camera would be a shock to most?

We've seen that type of footage for quite a while. Hell, for under a grand you can get similar footage. It's not like the Feds didn't know where the roadblock was.

Has anyone ever walked in snow on a hill? I'm seeing him bust through and try to catch himself, which was probably about the time he had serious abdominal pain from getting shot.

He did enough things wrong to earn it, but I don't see him going for a piece, especially not without cover or concealment and 20 rifles trained on him.

Bad move by both sides IMO.

Until we get a video that shows him being shot prior to reaching for his waist, suicide by cop seems fairly likely, given his previous statements.

local news is reporting that he was reaching into his pocket, and the cops found a 9mm handgun in there....

maybe coincidence and he wasn't reaching for it...or maybe he was...

either way, even if there were a dozen cops there....they evidently called it a threat and shot him...

not sure if it was the cop coming out of the woods and shot him from behind, or the one that almost got hit when he belly landed his pickup into the snow bank...

Glad the LEO that was almost hit by the Truck is alright... that was a close call....

this whole scenario just plain sucks...

You do realize that your first, second and third pictures when blown up clearly show Finicums hand in his jacket pocket don't you? A pocket that the FBI and OSP said contained a loaded 9mm.

Even if one assumes the cops are lying about the gun why would a sane person under a felony stop at gun point reach into their coat twice 5 seconds apart (9:25 while moving to his right and at 9:30 when he turned away from the officer in front of him)?

Also seeing as how the feds had aerial surveillance of the chase and shooting its not a far stretch to assume they knew about the 2 loaded long guns in the truck.

Thats not to mention his fleeing the initial stop and failing to stop while being persued.

Not sure how anyone who views this video disagrees that he reached in his coat and deserved the result

Having been on the receiving end of a felony stop, seven sheriff office cars surrounding me, helicopter overhead, in a case of mistaken identity.............



I can tell one thing from the video.












Mr Finicum did just about EVERYTHING wrong if one wanted to survive.

Geno

Exactly right Geno.

The FBI footage isnt the best, there are enhanced and zoomed versions on Youtube that appear to me to clearly show him reaching.

It makes no sense except suicide by cop or he planned to shoot it out.

Almost looks like he considered giving up for a moment, but then thought, "What the hell..."

As has been pointed out, the man made a lot of noise with the media that he wouldn't go to jail.

Chris

Next time them bundy boys just need to go to Portland start a big ol [bleep] riot burn some cop cars loot every buiseness for several blocks and in the end they get to go home... It works for the black folks in Baltimore

Go to the 9:00 min. mark and go full screen.

Chris,

I think you might have called it.

looked to me on my first viewing that the way he was turning as he pulled his jacket open with his left hand was that he was looking for a target should he actually get his gun drawn, but realized (as a confused old man like me would) that drawing from that pocket wasn't going to be so easy and that perhaps he wasn't making the right move but might as well follow though with it.


just f'n sad all around.

Geno

not taking sides, but as my wife also saw and pointed out... maybe instead of reaching for a gun, he is reacting to touching a wound he just received from one of the officers shooting him.....


fact is, whoever shot him won't have any repercussions to deal with....

now if it was a black guy shot by two white cops, even if reaching for a firearm, you know that the media, and Jackson/Sharpton crowd would be demanding the LEO's careers being over and that they need serious jail time....

one of my big complaints over the coverage of this, is if they are white guys in nowhere USA, whatever happens is their fault....

if it is blacks looting, robbing, burning down the town, raping Etc... they'd all get a free ride and the cops would be afraid to act at all, due to the media attention....

Dual Standards, under the liberals, this Black Ran Administration, the media. et al...

Or, with hands up, it's "drop your gun" and as he reaches, ....."bang, bang"!

Has anyone figured out when the first shot was fired, and by whom? Any of the LEO ground level videos with sound out yet? Could it be that they already had fired into the vehicle, and he took off, jumped out, to draw the fire to himself instead of the women in the vehicle? Was proper protocol followed if that is the case? Could they have used non-lethal methods from that distance? What agency was in charge, did they have legal jurisdiction? Did they endanger innocent people in the vehicle if they shot into it, when they had multiple opportunities to arrest him previous to him entering a public roadway? Why didn't they arrest him at the meeting with the FBI at the airport several days prior? When were the warrants issued, and were they notified properly? Wow, sounds like we might not know jack afterall.

Yup.

And if you skip ahead to the 15:00 min. mark, you'll see the other occupants of the vehicle exiting. One at a time, hands held high, moving deliberately, following instructions.

How To Behave During a Felony Stop 101.

It's a class everyone should know, like it or not.

The grade curve is steep, and the final could suck if you don't study.



Looked like Finicum got the (final) surprise of his life when he turned and saw that officer comin' outta the woodline. He weren't expecting to get flanked.

Kind of emblematic of the entire operation. Them Bundy's brought checkers to a chess match.

Arctic,

please see my post above about having been through this. I bet the LEO folks here will back me on what I'm about to say.

It doesn't go down like that. If he does not have a weapon in his hand at the time, they won't be telling him to "drop his weapon".

If his hands are raised and empty, they want them there until you are under their control, usually on knees or face planted in the dirt (Snow in this case). Watch the video of the other folks getting out of the vehicle. They walk over the snowbank to the cops with their arms raised! THEY, the cops, will lower your hands with handcuffs on them and then search you for weapons. While your hands are under their control. At no time will you be allowed to get anything out of your pockets.

Folks, please, this was not a "traffic stop" as listed in the title.

This was a felony arrest, plain and simple.

Just like if they had come to your house and knocked down the door. Better not reach into the couch for the 'tater chip you dropped.

Just like if they came to your office, better not try to put that file you're working on back in the drawer.

This was not a "Sir, do you know why I pulled you over" traffic stop.

Mr Finicum more than likely knew that from when he first stopped before fleeing.

Everyone out there, please, if you are ever involved in a felony stop/arrest, if you do not want to end up like Mr F., please follow orders exactly. ALWAYS keep your hands in plain sight. Do not attempt to reach for ANYTHING. Wallet/ID/purse. don't reach for it.

Even (especially?) if you feel like it's a wrongful arrest/mistaken identity, wrong place/wrong time situation. Do not attempt to show them (the cops of course) that "it wasn't me".

Especially if surrounded like those folks were. That is unless you want the "suicide by cop thing". Your choice.

I sincerely hope you never have to go through what I did. Or what those folks went through. The survivors will have their day in court.

Mr F, well, some folks believe he will meet his maker, sooner or later (judgement day), in the final court.

Sometimes it really is better to live to fight another day. I'm betting Mr F's family thinks so.

Geno

Geno,

I see you are trying that common sense and logical approach again...

How's it going?

The footage looked a lot like what we've all seen when men in bathrobes attempt to plant roadside bombs in the dark before being greeted with a surprise from the sky. That's all filmed from what 10-15K feet? This footage looked like that to me, just in daylight, color, and a few hours from home.............NOT one of the drones you can buy on Amazon. Just sayin'.

Given his statements about not being taken alive, you still believe this?

In 1875 they would have just burned 'em out and hung the ones that they didn't shoot in the back. Too bad they didn't have an eye in the sky on the bull shooting deal...sounds like the same witness.

I didn't read the whole thread but does anyone else get the feeling that he quickly exited the vehicle and put distance between himself and it's occupants because he knew what was going to happen next and didn't want them in the line of fire?

Why else would he have run through the snow? It's not like he was going to escape on foot and he knew that.

given his statements - he wasn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt

and who knows whether the occupants of the car were in agreement with his decision to endanger their lives.

looks like suicide by cop to me, although if he was shot and instinctively reached for a wound, I would change my opinion.

Still - I think I would have left the gun in the car - hopped out arms up and fell face forward into the snow until I got a knee on my neck.

then again, I would have tried like hell to avoid being in that position to begin with.

Maybe I'm a sheeple.

But I saw an SUV load of armed individuals from a forced takeover of a wildlife refuge flee from a stop and attempt to evade a roadblock.

One of the individuals who had many times spoke of his intent to die rather than be taken into custody then does what the guy did (note: no one else in the vehicle, complying with instructions, appeared to suffer so much as a bruise).

Like I said, maybe I'm a sheeple, but I found myself thinking what a risky stop that was for the Cops. They had no way of knowing whether or not the occupants of said vehicle were going to come out shooting, and it ain't like all the Cops were ensconced behind barricades.

YMMV,
Birdwatcher

I'm old school. I don't care if someone is reaching for their pocket. I want to see what comes out of the pocket before I shoot. I'm good enough. I guess most cops don't believe they are.

It was a detonator.

Now what?

Do you feel lucky? Or just "good enough"?

Everyone has differing opinions on what happened and what was seen in the video.

From my perspective:

Was it an "ambush"?

Well sort of, yeah.

The way this transpired with the felony stop, followed up by the roadblock incident is pretty much straight by the play book. The felony stop didn't work because the truck fled that scene until the roadblock. The roadblock did get them stopped. There were LEO placed away from the roadblock vehicles in case the truck decided to ram the roadblock.

The idea of a felony stop with this blueprint is to take into custody the people without endangering innocent lives in a populated area.

The video.

What I saw happen was that Mr. F exited the truck and made haste to put some distance between himself and the other occupants in the truck, as not to involve them in a hail of gunfire and confusion.

To get the distance he felt he needed before making his stand, he exited the truck with hands up and rapidly gained the distance he sought. Once he was far enough away from the truck, he made his stand. He didn't get very far with it though, and died as a result.

I don't believe he had any intention of "giving up".

His haste to put distance between himself and the other occupants was simply to not involve his friends in the upcoming gunfight.

The Mess

While everyone's opinion is subjective, mine is that things could have been handled differently.

There was never even one report or incident where the protestors pointed a weapon at anyone throughout the occupation. They were allowed to come and go at will, as were the reporters, or anyone else that wanted to go to the refuge and have contact with the occupiers.

If they were so dangerous, and so radical, why didn't the ones in charge simply isolate them, cut power and internet, and not allow anyone to come or go, or especially let them intermingle with people in town?

That sort of tactics is NOT out of the playbook. If they were such a threat to public safety, then why weren't they locked down? At any of several points in the whole incident, the occupiers could have taken as many hostages as they wanted. They could have started a huge bloodbath if that was what they wanted.

They didn't.

Mistakes were made by both sides.

I doubt the whole thing has done either side any good. The issues still remain, and those that want to spin their agenda now have the opportunity to do so.

Or the loaded 9mm that was in the pocket he appeared to be reaching for.

Maybe Dan is superman but I doubt it

The enhanced and zoomed videos on Youtube to my eyes clearly shows his hand go into his left interior jacket pocket twice before what appears to be 3 bullets (he reacts to all 3 rounds) striking him.

I also don't buy the reaching to self splint the bullet holes theory. Having treated many GSW's in the field through my professional life, not a 1 has repeatedly reached under a cover garment to self splint a GSW, they apply pressure over the top of their clothes.

The fact that their was aerial footage of this event to me also means the feds very likely had same prior to the group leaving the refuge and knew there were 2 loaded long guns in the truck. They are in the boonies with none of the potential threats one might find in an urban enviroment.

Who takes loaded long guns to a very rural public meeting with LE if they dont think their may be a gunfight with LE? CCW sure but why long guns?

I don't care if he pulled out a Snickers bar. Police were most likely barking out orders. In this situation, for anyone, you stand still and comply, comply, comply. Make your argument in court. Maybe he didn't want to go that route, or whatever.

He especially knew the sensitivity of the situation. Unless he was concussed or had some other reason not to understand/comply, if he farts he's going to get shot. These officers have a responsibility to each other and their families to go home. They didn't initiate this and they should all go home safe.

It looked like he also spun around quickly - not sure if that was from being shot. If not, it could be seen as an act of aggression. Again, stand freaking still and comply!

I hate to see anyone die. He had his side of the story and the gov't theirs. I don't claim to judge that. It's a shame.

Slap a lot a leather in the Air Force did ya? LOL

I just don't see how any thinking person can find fault with the cops in THIS shooting.

Regardless of what led up to this, the guy's ACTIONS placed the cops in the right.

He ain't necessarily WRONG..... just necessarily DEAD.

....and it hasn't occurred to anybody that the fellow that was up in the trees may very well have simply gone up there to take a dump.

Chit happens.

GTC

I thought the same thing.

Maybe, but it's a no brainer that, if they ran, they were either gonna crash or hit the ditch. It would be pretty dumb to not be ready for the occupants to run for the woods, with time to prepare.

I'm old school too, I like to go home to my family every night. No one who has declared his intent not to be taken, is known to pack wherever he goes, evades a roadblock, almost hits one of my guys with his truck, and reaches into his waistband is going to take that from me.

The dude punched his own ticket.

Exercising caution seems appropriate to me. He said he wouldn't be taken alive and could have had some kind of explosive device on him on him. I think he accomplished what he was after and I don't blame the police for trying to protect themselves.....

Point taken.

It would be interesting to know just how long that roadblock was in place,...I'm a bit curious as to whether it was JUST set up, or was part of a strategic plan.

No spike strips in front of it ?

GTC

Just WTF does Rob think should have been done? You have three, maybe four, LEOs at the scene with an unknown number of potentially armed individuals still in the truck. Running up there to render aid in deep snow is a very good way to get your ass killed if you haven't gotten the rest out of the truck and under control first.

Seen dumber...

Two deputies in a patrol car blocked the road with their car as we were chasing a felony subject in a stolen car. The deputies stayed inside the car.

Want to guess what happened?

They were lucky to be alive afterward.

I believe that armed law enforcement officers should be held to the highest standards. Their safety should come second to preserving the rights of citizens. Being confused, angry, ignorant, stupid, mentally ill, acting out, resisting, etc. does not forfeit your rights. The only entity empowered to restrict a person's right is a court of law.

Freedom is not free. It requires sacrifice and tolerance. Preserving the freedom of speech means that we've got to allow everyone to voice their opinions, without regard for the content. Preserving the right to bear arms, means that we're going to live in a society where citizens have access to dangerous weapons and that there's no practical way to prevent accidents and tragedy from resulting from this access. It's a give and take. Preserving religious freedoms means allowing others to practice religions differing from your own.

We celebrate those who serve in law enforcement. We do so because working in law enforcement is dangerous. In a free society law enforcement officers accept these risks, not out of benefit to themselves, but for societies' benefit. Their commitment is not transitory, they can't choose when to put themselves at risk and when not to. Bless them for serving.

The last few decades has seen Law enforcement become increasingly militarized. Law enforcement is well trained, well equipped, and well compensated. I applaud their service and sacrifice, but I do so realizing that they've choose to put the job before themselves and now have a duty to do so.

I keep seeing your reference to "armed law enforcement officers"...

Unarmed ones won't be enforcing much of anything.

There isn't any "higher standard" when it comes to use of deadly force.

Anyone using deadly force has the same standard.

You were either justified or you weren't.

Oh yeah, but they didn't have a month and your advice to plan it.

They both said they should have exited the vehicle before he got close.

Maybe the freshly added "anti-freeze" cologne they were wearing brought that clarity to them...

Ok point taken, either remove "armed" or replace with "armed to the teeth..."

That's always the best way to go to a gunfight.

watch the others exit the car, they all had trouble walking in the snow given the grade.

I am not saying the cops were not in the right to whack him, but I don't believe that he seriously though that he would stand a chance to get a shot off, even Bob Munden would be hard pressed to do so against those odd. Was it suicide by cop? a ground level tape with audio is all that can answer that. I would not be able to convict a cop for the shooting given the priors and the action leading up to the stop, but I also cannot dismiss the fact that Mr Finicum may have either slipped and been shot due to the sudden movement or been doing as told and got popped. there were a lot of guns on him and a lot of adrenaline flowing.

The usual suspects would just say it was altered.

Yes, a situation that Mr. F. was largely responsible for creating, and exacerbating.

GTC

I think this is a very reasonable perspective.

So, now we realize the incredible efficiency in information management that can occur when the gov't believes it is exonerating itself.

Which only magnifies the difference in the Yantis case.

Not yet. I'm still adding the shadows to the deceased.

Give me another day....

I think the rest of the folks in his truck are lucky he didn't get them all shot driving at the the road block the way he did. The officer he almost hit looks to be trying to get out of the way because he thought the truck was going to ram the vehicles. Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.

I reiterate my earlier post. People are seeing only what they want to and refusing to accept anything contrary to that even when it's right in front of them.

Did Finicum think that the situation would de-escalate when he hauled ass from the first stop, and then tried to run around the second road block?

The Feds are investigating that one too.

No release of any sort from them or the state.

I saw something completely different. I saw an officer leap to the berm, so as to block or discourage the driver from from proceeding.

Wasn't that exactly the point of the road block, and the traffic stop Finicum had already fled?

There was more than one officer there, and willhunt4's comment is still accurate; rounds could have very easily been fired legitimately at a vehicle approaching a road block at that rate of speed, especially when the driver has already fled another traffic stop and is known to be armed.

There's a whole lot of that these days.

"hauled ass"(sic), he did not appear to be going that fast. I was surprised by this the first time I watched the video, and remarked to myself that he did not appear to be speeding.

4ager, Can I respectfully ask if you've worked in law enforcement or are close to someone who has?

If you intended to include me in these descriptions, then I don't think you're being fair to my posts.

I did not. It was a general statement.

Through his words and deeds Mr. Finicum demanded a certain level of service from the police, which they provided. End of story.....

People see what they want to see.

Not only this, but most other things as well.

Unless you're a Trump disciple.

he made it 50 ish feet into a set up snow bank up hill.....my non scientific guess is he was doing around 40mph. that is not a speed you want to catch a 3/4 ton truck at. his driving could have got everyone killed.....of course, we don't know at what piont the truck started taking fire. He may well have ducked and throttled up in diving to the floor....that could have been solved by stopping before adding charges that are really tough to defend.....like resisting.

WTF! So a 200 pound man is going to jump in front of a 2 ton vehicle traveling at say 50 miles per hour and stop that vehicle? You can't be serious.

Not a cop; no cops in the immediate family (it's a damned big extended family - I've got cousins I've never met).

Speed in videos can be deceiving, and are also condition dependent. That ain't no KS interstate in sunny, dry, summer conditions he's on.

Finicum was known to be armed, had stated that he wouldn't be taken alive, ran from the first road engagement, and was coming at the roadblock at a rate of speed sufficient to take a FS truck off the road by several feet into and through snow banks several feet deep. Every action he took to that point had escalated the situation. He exits the truck making a run, as best as possible in the deep snow, for the trees, continues to move when likely ordered to stop and keep his hands up. During that he twice reaches toward the inside pocket of his coat (loaded pistol found there).

None of his actions de-escalated the situation. To think that he, or anyone else, WOULDN'T have justifiably been shot in that scenario is silly. He's damned lucky he didn't get anyone else in that truck killed.

Without being too much of an "analyst" this time, its a shame that the man had to talk it up so much in advance.

I'm sure that played a part in the neurons firing there at the end.

A lot of bravado about not going quietly, and next thing you know, you're in the middle of nowhere with a gun and a bunch of cops on a felony stop.

Some stupid little lobe in the noodle saying, "Well, we said we won't go to jail...."

Good thing we aren't held to the chutzpah written out here on so many occasions, eh?

You have to be kidding.

The dumbest of dumb wouldn't jump in front of a moving truck.

This shows folks see want they WANT to see.

Canoe

I can vouch for that also.

You dudes who think he was reaching where he was "already shot" are reaching yourselves. No indication at all from the rest of his body of any trauma. He was bolt upright and scanning for a target while smoothly reaching to his waste. Even appears that he is pulling his jacket open with his left hand.

Trust me on this......unless one is completely batty, that is not how one responds to a felony stop with intentions of complying and surviving.

That's the whole premise behind suicide by cop

I must have missed where officers are supposed to take one for the team before they can do their job.

+1 ... Finicum must have had a death wish.

The entire bunch of them did just about everything wrong that could have possibly been done wrong from day one.

What did they expect was going to be the outcome?

They set themselves up to lose from the get-go & now it's become reality.

MM

100% correct.

Really, this is your response?

You may be correct about the officer trying to move to intercept.
Still the wrong move by the driver to not stop well short of the road block and stay in the vehicle until instructed to do otherwise.

I saw the officer jump in front of the truck also. There are hero types in all professions. I am convinced some cops want to shoot first and hope the video clears them later. I had a couple friends who were cops. In twenty years one had one fight. The other had a fight at least once per week in his fifteen years of being a cop. They are people with a different job than most of us who do it differently based on their personality.

not being there and not having anything other than a perspective that nobody has ever been able to have real time in a fight, I can see both sides of this argument. you have a guy with a possible pistol in his pocket, has done things to prove he is not that bright and has made statements that are damning.

now, lets look at the flip side, there are 20 ish guys behind cover, most with accurate weapons and time to take aim (as proven by the quick death). Mr Finicum would need to be the greatest shot on earth to present any danger to those behind cover. I am not suggesting that they take fire before dishing it out, but given the polarization of this subject, some audio or a visible weapon would have sealedthe deal for the LE IMO. with no visible weapon and no audio, we will never know if it was a early discharge, quick response to a verbal threat by fin or somwhere in between.

it is very easy to view this from either perspective and guess.....but it is still just a guess.

I only meant to suggest an alternative reason for what appears to be an officer leaping to the berm. An alternative to Willhunt4's suggestion, "The officer he almost hit looks to be trying to get out of the way because he thought the truck was going to ram the vehicles."

Im a first responder... given all thats been going on, that scene is not safe for medical response..... Just saying.

Dumbass was driving and ran from the cops. Tried to run a roadblock and damned near ran over a cop. Gets out of the truck puts his back to the cops and reaches for something in his coat. What a Dumbass. All would have been well, if at the first stop, had he turned the truck off and all occupants put their hands out of the windows.

anyone who argues with you on this point is quite ignorant.

thinking this...
#1 it was his intention to shoot it out with the police...why would he not draw the weapon prior to exiting the vehicle?
#2 has it been proven 5hat he was armed on his person when shot?

buckshot to the back is always bad press.

FBI states he had a loaded 9mm in the pocket he was reaching for

Just a guess, but his cause gains nothing by the shooting being justified. He wanted to be shot with his hands up in the air. It also would benefit the family he chose to leave behind.

The cop standing in front of him before he was shot didn't look to be behind cover to me

Technically there were two cops in front of him in the open.

Looked like he was trying to show that he was unarmed. Obviously, doing anything other than having your hands up and following orders to a tee is completely stupid, but then so is shooting someone who is not pointing a gun at you. The only part I don't get is why people are in favor of cops shooting people when they don't absolutely have to. The FBI knew this was going down. They should have had a better plan to get those people to court healthy. What they did should land them all in jail and their bosses fired. We are paying them to do a job, after all.

Just because a person straps on a gun and pins a badge on doesn't mean they don't deserve to come home to their families at the end of a shift.

You said:


What rights of the person in question were violated? Specifically to this event, FBI and OSP were tasked with the arrest on an arrest warrant of a list of people, known to likely armed, including the deceased. Upon being pulled over, one person exited the vehicle and was peacefully taken into custody. The deceased then resisted arrest by fleeing the scene, running a roadblock while nearly ramming an officer on foot. He exits his vehicle, then refuses to comply with the commands of officers tasked with his arrest. He repeatedly drops his hands to his coat or waist area and was summarily shot by the officers. Upon further investigation, the suspect had a loaded 9mm handgun in his coat pocket.

Where were his rights violated? And how does this supposed violation of his rights supplant officer safety?

You can't save someone from themselves.

So that further shoots the above theory In the ass.



Way I see it, he knew damned well he wouldn't win a gun fight there, but I think he had some fantasy land view of being some sort of martyr for a cause. I'm not saying his "big picture" cause (getting rid of big govt) was wrong but this particular flag he took up was dumb.


I have to wonder if maybe he didn't have a terminal illness, and decided that by going out as a martyr he could ensure his family 's future with all of the "go fund me" spies so prevalent today

Please tell.me how you would go about apprehending persons known to be amred, and known to make statements about not being taken alive, while absolutely guaranteeing they don't get hurt in a world of uncertainties?

Actions have consequences.


Suppose instead of a gun he had a detonator wired to a vest full of IEDS?..

How do you know he isn't reaching for the detonator in his pocket?

I understand Dan Chamberlain is good enough to deal with that.

Except he wasn't unarmed, was he?

When they guys drove in like they did, I'm guessing that pretty much gives one insight into their mentality at the time.

Unless info has changed(which it may have) all the articles I have seen have stated he was unarmed.
I havn't followed it as of late,basically because I fell he had a wish...

Does this sorta' nonsense just flow from your mind, and out into the I-net,....or do you have to seriously work at coming up with increasingly ridiculous BS ?

That is the STUPIDEST thing I've seen, or heard this week, Mister.

....and there's been no shortage of stupid.

GTC

The FBI sac, released a statement saying he was found with s loaded 9mm in his left interior coat pocket

Jeez, another contender in the stupid race.

They're neck and neck comin' into the home stretch, folks.

GTC

I think it's wonderful how the FBI has been so helpful releasing all this information. Now if they could be just as helpful in the Yantis case that would great.

I pronounced this a good shoot several pages ago based only on the video. Y'all are overthinking the deal to death.

Regardless of what the guy said, or did, prior to his actions from the first roadblock forward, his actions after exiting his vehicle are not even remotely the actions of a man intending to be compliant with the cops.

They should have killed him and they did.

They shouldn't have killed his passengers and they didn't.

End of story.

Everybody stop posting.

Quit posting.

Thread closed.

Exactly what I've been thinking. The silence on that issue is deafening.

The LEOs had the rare advantage of prior warning in this case.

They set up the road block and had the film running.

Some LEOs in some cases (Chicago) get away with the delay for bad reasons.

But very few cases allow law enforcement the time to plan what they know will be a negative interaction with protestors.

What has that to do with the existing body and dash cams in Council, Idaho? We know the cams were there, but I have yet to see even a statement of whether or not they were in fact turned on. Either there is usable video or there isn't. Why the secrecy?

The FBI wasn't at the Yantis shooting. This was their OP.

I don't think it matters whether he was armed or not. As was pointed out somewhere early on in this thread, he could have put his hand in his pocket, an detonated a device. Sound crazy?

The farmers were planning this for weeks, if not months. They proved that by having supplies to hold up in the building. Is it unreasonable to think that they could have created an explosive device? It's easy to know now what he did or didn't have. Let's look at what the officers did know, even aside from his public comments, actions, etc. Just look at the traffic stop.

Suspect vehicle stops initially. Sits for a period of time. What are they doing? Preparing a device? Drawing up a plan? Eating popcorn? Watching the debate? Who knows.

Suspect then drives away from police. To go where? Maybe just to draw more LEOs in, so he can kill as many as possible with the device and make a more profound statement?

Suspect exits the vehicle and, at least from what we see, appears to not be acting like someone in compliance. I'm guessing the LEOs weren't saying: "Raise your hands. Lower your hands. Turn this way. Now that way. Put your hands near you waste. Now near your pockets. Do the hokie-pokie." I assume this, based on the actions of the second suspect. He exits the vehicles, raises his hands, and tosses a weapon.

LEOs have a duty to us. They also have a duty to each other and their families. That is to get home safely. I'm sure there are bad LEOs out there, but I bet most don't take satisfaction in taking a life.

We weren't there. But if I wanted to comply with LEOs, I don't think that video shows how I'd go about it.

You seem to forget that they have absolutely zero accountability, especially in a situation like this one............and that's really what's wrong with this whole scenario & show & use o "overwhelming" force.

They are essentially untouchable, whether they were right or wrong.

MM

kingston,

assuming a reasonable level of sanity/intelligence.... YOU would do that? jump in front of a moving vehicle (a full sized truck no less) " to block or discourage the driver from from proceeding"?

I seriously doubt it.

I saw what the other person did, the officer in question thought the vehicles would be rammed and dove to the side.

Geno

PS, forgive please, I see I am late to this party, questioning the reasonableness of your statement re: jumping in front of a moving truck. Others have already taken this idea up with you. I have seen some of you response to said others.

I now have another theory. A humorous one. The officer in question, let's call him Officer Jumpy, suffers from restless leg syndrome and the twitches needed relief. So, he did the "Time Warp" .

Yeah, what the hell, tilting at windmills is a specialty of folks with a Mediterranean heritage.

I don't know what Nordic/Germanic folks do?

"Ride" Valkyries?

(cute ones of course. Like down below)

While listening to Wagner?

maybe I need to channel the Irish blood, I hear there's some Viking in those folks.

Could be more fun than this, however, some of the posts here border on the hilarious.

Geno

RWE,

why? are there squirrels about? a whole cabal of them?

Oh wherefore art thou Mr Tibbe?



Geno

WyColoCowboy,



Where did you get all this info? I saw him put his hands down only once. And that was after they shot him. Were you there to see the retrieval of a 9mm? Or did someone plant it after the fact?

WyColoCowboy,



Were you there to verify this?

Check the zoomed in video on the Oregonian. His hands went down at least twice that I could see. He was jumping like he had a squirrel in his shorts.

I don't think it matters if had a gun. The question is, did he comply? If his hand go near his pocket and he wants to trigger a device, why does the LEO have to "see" gun. Hands anywhere but in the air are a risk to the suspect.

They certainly could be. Jumps out with hands spread (surrendering) and gets out into the opening (not hiding or taking cover), turning around some (to be visible). Maybe even indicating that he's got a gun in his pocket so that they're not wondering or thinking he's hiding anything. One (or more) of the cops is yelling something like "Show me the gun!" or "Take it out carefully and put it on the ground!" and another (or more) is yelling something like "Freeze!" or "Hands Up!" or something. Conflicting instructions, which cause him to reach towards a coat and away a coupla of times.

Totally plausible. Just ask Erik Scott.

Good audio would be helpful, of course.... Without it this video isn't especially helpful.

Do you know what a strawman argument is?

Josey,

BINGO! here's a winner.

Now, stop being logical or someone will come along and ask you "how's that working for you".

Geno

PS, the campfire, at least the "Hunter's Campfire" portion of it, thrives on inanities. Please strive to keep it that way, some folks really enjoy it.

Joseywales,



Did you see the video from a chopper like I did or did you see a different one? I saw a guy get out of the car with his hands up. I saw his hands go down when he was killed.

If you kept watching the video you'd see there were two other passengers that exited the white vehicle. So, do you think the officers should have rushed in and rendered aid knowing there's two more in the truck?

Looks like after the other two occupants were taken into custody, the officers then approach the person that was shot. I wouldn't have done it any different . . .

Joseywales,



Looked like a guy walking in deep snow to me.

Senor que vive cerca de la frontera,
(I'm not in the mood to play keyboard games, so you get no accent marks today )

how many pages before we pick a winner?

Is a bull owner more important than a "squatter" on Federal grassland?

Do we start a pool re: eventual pages in this thread?

Where is the anti-sluicer when we need his input?

Geno

Lavoy had already steered toward and onto the berm before jumpy lept from safety into the snowy abyss...

I can't pretend to know what happened there but if the ONLY thing you saw was the guy's hands in the air, I now know why you need a 80x scope to shoot 200 yards.

Possibly. But why did the second suspect have no trouble complying? He exited the vehicle, hands raise. reached down, tossed his gun and live to tell about it. Audio would be nice. The fact is , this guy could have surrender up the road a piece, but drove away. He's already shown his intent NOT to comply.

I think the bottom line is, he put himself in this situation and the LEOs err on the side of caution, to keep themselves safe, I don't have an issue with that. In fact, I'm concerned that the officer in the tree line would walk out in the open, while other armed suspects are in the vehicle. He put himself at risk there, or so it appeared.

that was my thought too. hard to miss the reaching for the left jacket pocket twice...

[email protected]
To Undisclosed-Recipient@ Jan 28 at 12:55 PM
Please pass this on to your Dentist:


It is with great pleasure that I would like to introduce you to Cerma Dental Tool Nano Technology Ceramic Treatments. It is available in both drops and a spray.

image image I sell either one for $40.

The bottle contains 1.25 oz. which equates to about 1,000 drops, the spray comes in a 4 oz. pump bottle. Please note that our Dental Lube and Air Tool Lube are the same product. The same thing applies to our spray version. It is marketed as a gun spray but metal is metal and it is the same formulation as the drops version... It is just marketing :>}

One question I always get, pertains to FDA approval. The truth is that any and all dental lubricants are not FDA approved... the components that make them may be food grade FDA approved. Kind of like using just the best ingredients to make a cake.

All of that theory goes out the window when you are talking metallurgy. We are impregnating silica carbide (ceramics) into the metal. It is inert and pickles up to 6 microns deep into the metal based on its Nano particle size. It is attracted to the carbon and carbon acids deep inside the metal. Once those molecules bind, they then cure and this is accelerated by heat. As clean as you think your tools are, you will be shocked by how much dirt is pulled out of the metal during the initial Cerma treatment(s).

Under no circumstances does the Cerma air tool metal treatment come into contact with the patient. As with your current lubricant, you lube the tool, blow it out, and then autoclave cure it. You never add additional lubricant after the autoclave sterilization. Loose or fluid lubricant could contaminate the bond between fillings and teeth. I understand these concerns, but with all due respect, they are unfounded when we talk metallurgy instead of lubrication. We “lubricate” through the perfection of metal surfaces. No residual fluid remains.

For those that are creatures of habit, if you would feel more comfortable you could do both techniques together until you build your trust in Cerma. You could first apply the Cerma metal treatment, blow it out and autoclave. Finally, you could then re-apply your old lubricant, blow it out and again autoclave. You will feel you have covered all bases, but the real improvements will be due to the Cerma and the secondary traditional “lubricant” is just a psychological crutch. I asked for a double autoclaving so that your lubricant does not mix with my ceramic chemistry when it is in a liquid state. Once cured it become “bullet proof” and impervious to all chemicals and oils.

I believe within a very short period of time, you will never go back to traditional lubricants again. You will be also treating the tips of drills, dental picks, and what ever you do not want to wear or just to reduce the porosity so that bacteria has no place to hide. Cerma will not affect the brittleness of your metals. It is all good... trust me on this.

Cerma inventor Mr. John Murray spent 15 – 20 years building air tools for the dental industry. He is uniquely qualified. Please call him at 310 617-5757.

James McGrath
203 376-1152

Most people by now have seen the zoomed and enhanxed FBI footage where he undoubtably reaches into his jacket twice prior to absorbing 3 rds.

If one looks at the Oregonian footage on Youtube its all very clear unless one has already made up their mind via subpar footage

it was pretty plain even in the un-edited version.

Maybe it's clear to you. I still see no reason to shoot him. I saw no gun. One can only speculate what he was doing with his hands. Eitherway, I'm not convinced that he was a threat.

Will do thanks.

Also, a question to those who are leaning toward "suicide by cop", or something similar: If he's doing the "suicide by cop" thing, or if he's actually going to be hostile, why the (possible - we can't exactly tell) multiple reaches into or toward a pocket or jacket? If yer gonna do it, then do it. The yes-no-yes-no thing wouldn't make sense.

Well, I wish i could "blow up" the third screen shot of yours as it looks to me like he was already moving away from the center of the his truck as the truck coming towards him is still on a collision course. And perhaps he still thought he could make it over the berm before Mr. F's truck got there. He's getting pretty high on that berm there, maybe to let the truck get between the berm and the blockade?

Neither one of us knows for sure, and I wonder if the officer does either.

What we do know is, Mr. F was a wanted suspected felon. Who had previously fled from a stop. Who was known to be armed. Who was known to have expressed no desire to "be locked in a concrete box". Who was now approaching a roadblock with no indication of coming to a stop. These things are a given.

The fact of an officer jumping away from a vehicle, "apparently" into the path of the oncoming one, really matters not one bit. So what if he did it intending to "make" Mr F come to a stop. Now what, we are to believe that Mr F stopped out of the goodness of his heart instead of the fact that tons of snow (laws of physics) brought his vehicle to a stop?

OK, free country, you see and believe what you wish to. It's your "right". I will not attempt to take that away from you.

Good afternoon to you.

Geno

Play stupid games....win stupid prizes.

Enough said.

Fair enough. Is it possible the officers speculated that he was reaching into his pocket to trigger a device and they shot him before he could do it? Why do people have to see a gun to believe there's a threat? Based on his actions of driving away, then the dance he put on, it doesn't appear he was complying at any time. We've all seen videos of suspects first raising their hands, then pulling a knife, gun, etc.

Many of us are fortunate enough to be able to speculate without dying as a result of being wrong. LEOs don't share that luxury.

But they obviously do have accountability, to you and I.

And the good ones well know it. And some of their brass have apparently figured it out.

That is why this one did NOT turn into Ruby Ridge or Waco. And that is why the FBI almost immediately released video of the shooting.

It is obvious to any reasonable person that the police had no choice but to shoot. The choice was taken from them by the perp.

One man made a decision to die. He is dead! Several others made a decision to live, they are alive and well. As are, thank God, all of the police involved.

Reasonable persons understand that authorities have to end this occupation by armed people threatening violence and instigating armed rebellion. They have to end it before every ultra right wing loonie in the nation shows up ready to initiate another civil war.

The public could not ask for a more perfect place for the arrests to be made. There are probably zero pieces of hiway in the us more perfectly suited for the roadblock. Deep frozen snow, no chance of the perp driving around the road block. He tried!

Remote location, no chance of reenforcements arriving to assist perps. And no risk to innocent bystanders.

People ask, Why did they not make the arrests in a public meeting, or the city street?

Yeah, that would have fueled the Monday morning quarterbacks' discussions when it went south.

Personally, I am very surprised that the feds did not move to arrest every one of the squatters during the first week of occupation.

I applaud all of the police involved for their restraint.

Am I less of a human being for LMAO at that?

Lets try this another way. So you have occasion to have a known armed felon who has threatened to shoot it out with you at gun point outside of a stolen vehicle that you know has loaded weapons in it. Rather then listen to your orders this subject continually reaches onto his jacket.

Are you seriously trying to tell me you think that someone would not be justified in firing on said subject.

Heres a hint as it typically applies to a justified self defense shootings, the situation must meet the Basic Standard.

The Basic Standard: You may legally use deadly force only when there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.

Immediate and Unavoidable Danger is applied based on answering 3 elements.
Ability: means that the other person has the power to kill or to cripple you.

Opportunity: means that the circumstances are such that the other person would be able to use his ability against you.

Jeopardy: means that the other person’s actions or words provide you with a reasonably-perceived belief that he intends to kill you or cripple you.



So now that you know the basic federal requirements to a justified self defense shooting what part of the video isnt consistent with these standards?

I am not totally against some of what those idiots were saying. However, those fools were in a no-win situation and did not have the support of the public. They tried to be big and tough and when it came down to the nut cutting, only one stood up for what he believed and said. The rest were wannabes.

The cops did exactly what they should have done. How many times is a cop suppose to let a dumbass reach for his waste band before killing him? Cops of whatever level have a difficult job full of life or death situations. They have to make a decision and deal with the consequences.

I would have shot that dumb bastard the first time he reached for his waste, after all the bs he was spreading about never going to jail. I made it through 27 years of federal law enforcement without having to make that decision, but morons seem to abound these days. Good shoot and good ending compared to what it could have been.

Geno,

I hear ya. It's my goal to be reasonable and not rush to judgment. The FBI released the video, we watch it and see what we see. Aside from this video, we (the public) have had no other evidence presented to us. Evidence about what happened on that snowy road. We've read and heard statements, but that's it. At this point, I see no reason to commit to a theory of what happened. Maybe I'm more comfortable suspending judgment than the average person. To each their own. After all, it's a fine line between naivety and paranoia, although most would argue naivety is much less painful.

Sure it would. If I wanted suicide by cop, I'd keep reaching into my jacket until I got it.

Don't try to confuse me with facts.

Joseywales,



The second guy stayed near the car on the solid snow. The cops already made there point by unnecessarily killing the first guy.

I'll bet you're hell on the monkeys at the zoo, when they start flinging their chit at folks......

Idaho_Shooter,



That's why the shooters in Idaho are in jail now, isn't it?



I see. The ones on here who disagree with you are unreasonable. Clear to me.

MallardAddict,



How do you know he was not told to open his jacket?



Yes.



Correct. We did not see him threaten anyone.

Good Lord, you're an idiot of Biblical proportions.

Having driven in snow before and knowing what that's like, did Lavoy think he was going to get around the roadblock vehicles?

Have you ever seen God? Yet you believe, based on your learning, maybe your experiences, etc.

I'm guessing that the LEOs believed this guy was a threat. Based on their experience with him, his own preaching, and years of experience. They didn't need to see a gun or device. He acted and they believed.

The shooting in Council was an entirely ditterent situation. I firmly believe those two deputies should be imprisoned, one for manslaughter, the other for murder. But in that case, none of Mr. Yantis's friends and family is quoted as saying he charged at police officers. Nor did Mr. Yantis display a felonious mindset by attempting to run a road block, endagering the lives of his passengers and officers.

The two deputies in Council are accountable to the public, even if they may not believe so. I sincerely wish the details of the FBI investigation to be released several months ago.

Reasonable person,.......seems to be a concept encountered in court room situations.

I, as a layman, figured it might mean that if 100 people look at a scenario and 99 reach the same conclusion, the one might be considered to not be of reasonable mindset.

My god....does your iq go higher than potato?

Have you paid attention to his posts over the years? If so, you'd not insult a potato.

It would have been cruel to live capture a man with dreams of martydom, humiliatingly putting him in a cell where he vowed he would not go..

Idaho_Shooter



Your illustration sounds reasonable to me. If the numbers were 60 / 40 which group would be reasonable.

There's more to the entire story than just the FBI video tells as well...

Ryan Bundy was also shot, so there was more shooting going on somewhere, directed at the group.

It'd be interesting to see THAT footage as well. (Not that anyone would agree on what they just saw...)

Honestly Sean....no I haveht, because I keep forgetting which Ring_______ is an idiot, so I pretty much pass both of em by

in a lot (most?) states now, the threshold on use of force has moved away from "what would some random reasonable person do?" to "can you articulate why YOU decided this was a reasonable course of action?"

"He did not comply with orders and I saw him reach into his jacket" is ALL that is required.

Any civilian that appeared on scene out of thin air and shot the just would be equally justified in doing so.


It seems impossible to get some to wrap their heads around this, but there DOES NOT HAVE TO BE AN ACTUAL GUN IN THE POCKET -- as long as the one who shot him can articulate he reasonably thought there might be, that's it. period. justified shoot.

Check out where he was carrying on his left side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCcxZR4i2jI

With that in mind check out the slowed down, zoomed in footage of the shooting: http://www.oregonlive.com/#/0

It sure looks to me that he is pulling his jacket out with his left hand and reaching across with his right, at one point even looking down at the gun.

I've mentioned that in his videos he is shown wearing a shoulder holster.

Does anyone really not think LE watches these videos too?

His actions were entirely consistant with reaching for a gun in a shoulder holster

I see what you did there

He was from Arizona...

DEAD silent ( no pun intended) on that score, aren't they ?

Wonder if there wasn't an N.D. in that pickup.

GTC

Since this thread needs another post ...

I don't doubt the legitimacy of the shooting. But are there any videos from a dashcam? Somebody obviously wanted drone video, and had weeks to plan. No vehicles available for the stop that were equipped with a dashcam?

Maybe they just weren't released yet. Did I miss that?

Not drone video; helicopter.

I'd bet that a lot of folks contemplating suicide go through a lot of yes-no-yes-no cycles before finally pulling the trigger. This was suicide by cop. He thought about it for a few seconds before someone made his mind up for him. Who knows, maybe a few more seconds and he would have decided to give up. But he was already given more than enough opportunities. He got what he said he wanted.

If you bothered to read what i wrote about the basis of justifiable self defense shooting then you would see all elements were clearly met by this situation as presented by video and it was a legally defensible use of lethal force.

As has been repeatedly pointed out there doesnt have to be a weapon presented, just the threat of use and the perception a weapon is present.

If you think this was a bad shoot, then answer me as to why its bad? What necessary part wasnt met, "the basic standard"? or which of the 3 necessary elements that make up "immediate and unavoidable danger" do you feel were not present?

If those 4 things are met its a good shoot under federal law regardless of your opinion.

As far as him threatening anyone you would have to live under a rock not to have seen Finicum say he was willing to shoot it out with LEO's repeatedly.

If you notice around 10:48 or thereabout in the video right as the aircraft circles around behind the trees on the passenger side of the truck, there is an obvious shot that hits on of the passenger windows. You can see the snow explode away from it.

John

rockinbbar,



Everyone knows he was asking for it. The cops just failed to do a good job. Kinda like attempted murder fails to kill someone.

The first guy who came out at first had his hands up, then went to either his waist or the inside of his jacket. He made the movement that condemned himself to be shot. He controlled the scenario, he make the movement that forced the LEO to stop his actions.
With at least one other in the car, no aid was going to reach him. Cold hard facts given the angle from the air.

maybe the most thoughtful post on the whole mess. and the last sentence should be food for thought for all of us.

Sycamore

You either need your eyes checked or you have a hard time interpreting footage.
The guys hands were not always in the air. He took them down and reached with his right hand inside his jacket.
That to a LEO justifies taking action to stop his movements.
You'd better watch it a few more times.

the reports I have heard call a 9mm pistol in his interior coat pocket.....not exterior or shoulder holster.

we need ground level with audio.

Good Lord, guys.....................can we get past the name-calling please?
What we have here (in the big picture) is people that are protesting the abuses of our government, plenty of which are documented and not properly responded to. So many politicians that are only in it to line their own pockets, and are totally unaccountable for their actions. There are so many events that our Founders would call treasonous actions that I am constantly amazed that people refuse to see why folks like the "occupiers" have taken a stand against corruption.
Whether Finnicum should have been shot or not does not matter to me........................the fact that our government will not follow the rules that "we the people" are taught to follow is sad for all of us.

If you want examples of what I'm referring to, how about the fact that good law-abiding citizens are constantly being "fleeced" by being forced by our government to support those who are lazy and underserving and many with felonious actions ( many life-long welfare recipients) is one, the fact that politicians are not required to pay into Social Security because the are somehow judged "too special and important" is another, and they are compensated for life to an incredibly larger scale of pay than the rest of us is another. When did these [bleep] become something special?
Personally, I am sick to death of the double-standard that exists in America. I doubt very seriously that this is what our Forefather founders of our government expected to see become the norm.

lngrng's rant off..................if you think I'm full of sht, then feel free to flame me, but I still believe in America, and this is definitely not the country that I grew up in!

There is no shame here other than acting in a way that forced the cops to stop your actions. "Talking it up" and acting to become a martyr was his own decision. He obviously had plenty of time throughout this protracted confrontation to decide what to do. Even at the end of the chase, he could have surrendered. He didn't and he is dead.

60/40 equals a hung jury.

The members of this board are probably as anti-fed a demographic as any to be found in the country.

I doubt a poll of even this forum would show 10 percent questioning the police action under discussion.

Nationwide, I doubt we could find that 1 percent.

What I find funny half you guys talk it up ah man the Feds come for guns I have something for them I lived a good life blah blah blah I'm taking some with me they are not getting my guns... The minute this guy gets shot and killed you all are yeah he deserved it he's dumb ass blah blah well didn't he die for something he believed in??? Typical day and month 24hourcampfire..

doesn't change the fact that reaching for a gun at a felony stop will get you killed

John,

I wondered about that myself, and the flashes during the video after Mr F was down.

If you can find the version ( the Oregonian?) of the video with the FBI (I think?) explaining the events I believe I recall him saying that about that time they were shooting OC (think pepper spray) sponge rounds at the vehicle.

I was thinking they were regular rounds or perhaps someone was trying to shoot out of the vehicle.

I think earlier in this thread there is a link to that version.

Geno

IIRC, the text on the youtube site mentioned flashbangs being used. might be the flashes?

I'll try and explain this in kindergartens for you...try and keep up.

A firearm in a shoulder holster designed for a right handed shooter would hang under the left shoulder of the person wearing said holster.

Said person attempting to draw a weapon from said shoulder holster would reach his right hand across his chest to where the firearm hung in the holster.


Typically the left side inside pocket of a jacket is located on the inside of the left chest portion of the jack in very close proximity to where a shoulder holster would hang.

So the motion of him reaching his right hand into the inside pocket on the left side of his jacket would be ENTIRELY CONSISTANT with someone reaching for a weapon in a shoulder holster.

In atleast one of the videos Finicum is show speaking in he is wearing a shoulder holster.



Is that easy enough to follow, or should I get you some crayons?

I cannot believe this...esp on a forum that claims to be "pro 2nd"

What happened to logic, reason, thinking? Seeing?

What do you think?

It's Friday night.

Lay off the logic, it'll only get you to drinking.

(Or not,......... in my case!)

Geno

PS, or maybe it's lay off the drinking, it'll only get you to logic?

Who cares, go research some AI loads.

Current logic says that if you are to the point of dodging road blocks and known to be armed, the fact that you get shot shouldn't be surprising.

Current logic?..............goes clear back to Bonnie and Clyde, Pretty Boy Floyd, etc.

Some folk thought they were heroes at the time as well.

Typical retard-speak that more and more folks here will come to expect from you.



You might very well,....others might say there's nothing "funny" being discussed here at all, you obnoxious cretin.

GTC

Current can indeed be the same as the past.

Lol oh boy listen to you the guy that can't hold his liquor... You are the retard we speak of let me guess if I was in Arizona you drive over and teach me a lesson about manners blah blah blah ... Half this crew is right about you... Plan your next 24hour get together bud and let it spiral out of control like your last one... You obnoxious old piece of [bleep]... I'm sure your bros will be by to defend you...

I would hope those that support the 2nd and a right to self defense could see what happened.

I would hope that those with a ccw...could see what happened.

Apparently, not the case. Which, at my young age, I find tragic.

Sad. Just sad, 79.

Are you going to address the issues or something that you heard from someone who knew someone?

WTF are you talking about ?

Would you care to go into some DETAIL about this, Retardo ?

GTC

Doubt he will,....but anybody that was AT the last gathering here is sure welcome to chime in,....

GTC

Jcubed



Let me help you use fewer words.

I wish everyone agreed with me.

Yours not mine.

It takes a strong person to admit one is wrong.

Optics forum, or otherwise.

You do have a way with words!

I know that you get off hoping to some day make the JV squad for the feds and if you can tout you infinite knowledge of the Bianchi x15, jackets and federal agents, but if you could just for one second pull your head out from between your pockets and take a breath of fresh air, you might actually be able to get someone to pay attention to you.

I'm not an idiot, I am having fun with you, because you are easily tiled and predictable.

Looking at the video does look like he was moving his hand cross chest to go under his jacket. What you can not tell though, is perhaps he was already shot or tased at that time. No muzzle flashes are to be seen through out the video.
It's quite clear that this was an ambush, as people start appearing from the trees after the shooting stops. You can also see that the rounds that were impacting the windshield were not coming from the road block area, but from some where in front of the truck( shooters up the hill in the woods)
Listening to the phoned statement that the female made that was in the truck speaks of the cops shooting at the vehicle when it was first stopped, prior to the road block. She said the people in the truck simply stuck their empty hands out the window and told the cops that pulled them over that they were going to a meeting with one of the local sheriffs. ( Obvious now that this was a set up by law enforcement) After taking fire, they decided to take off.
She also states that no one in the truck at any time brandished or fired a weapon, and after Ficcum was shot, and she was yelling we have to help him, all hell broke loose,with many rounds being fired into the truck. Their was no gunfight, just the cops poring it on.
i doubt that we will ever see any ground shot video, too incriminating for the Law that was there.
With all that's been happening in America, riots, louting, arson and armed protest, and the first ones the FBI goes after are some white boys out in Oregon standing up for their rights.... just plain wrong!
Also, not much press of the deal that was brokered, when Hillary was in the State dept, to allow a supposed Canadian Company ( that apparently is a shell company owned by the Russians) to mine uranium in Wyoming, currently going on. Which just happened to pump over 3 million into the Clinton Foundation. Hammon's land is also sitting on uranium deposits. Coincidence? I think not.
I smell another Rat!
Sad state of affairs!

Uranium...

Clinton...

Video...

Oregon...

Really?

Was that in reverse?

Just Google Clinton Foundation Russian Uranium, the say "Really?"

I'm goin to the *next* one.

Apparently, you have spent far too much time reading nothing...

If you knew anything about uranium, well, you would understand how this had NOTHING to do with the stop in Oregon.

Uranium...Oregon...Wyoming...Clinton( Sec of State, long gone now? )

But somehow it all fits...

Seriously?

Oh yeah, proper spelling and grammar...it helps us understand.

It would help if you could read faster that 10 words a minute. You might be able to do some actual research.

Ohhhhhhhhh... you are so amazingly intelligent, tell me more about my research!

BTW...just so I'm not making 32_20fan angry...that response was directed at me, right?

Where is deflave? Can I get a deflave? Doesn't he travel to Minn?

You still up enjoying yourself?

Geno

Not "still up." Apparently, you and I share the same schedule.

But, seriously...well, I guess it really isn't all that serious with what has been posted on this Friday/Sat.

How are you, pops?

Regards

Just so America knows...I can only read 10 words a minute.

Book it.

Log it.

File it.

Find Underlying Constraints to Kick IT!

Ha...

minnmarcus,

I hope all is well there in MN.

I have a question? Why single out the Hammond ranch as "sitting on uranium deposits". There are many other ranches in the same situation. Take a look at this map.

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/general/map.html

If it doesn't come up as showing Uranium, click the box next to it on the right side. After doing that, over to the left is a scale of eU concentrations in ppm. As you will see, there are vast areas of the west with as high or higher concentrations. Play around with the map if you'd like. You can even get down to the quadrangle map of the ranch area should you choose. Or any other ranch on the map. Good luck with your search should you choose to look around.

Why would the company you speak of as being involved with the Clinton Foundation be any more interested in the Hammond ranch than any of thousands across the Uranium bearing western US?

Geno

PS, marcus, not only directed at you, but why all this emphasis on the "whiteness" of the ranchers involved (and their supporters) and comparisons to other events? Is there a conspiracy afoot? Seems like there's little to compare.

A riot

(Merriam-Webster definition, the first one is what you're talking about right?:

noun ri·ot \ˈrī-ət\
Simple Definition of riot
Popularity: Bottom 50% of words

: a situation in which a large group of people behave in a violent and uncontrolled way

: a place that is filled with something

: someone or something that is very funny )


by it's nature is not a planned and coordinated armed takeover and occupation of a Federal facility that conveniently happened to be closed for the weekend. Concurrent with the takeover were statements to the effect "we're not giving it back unless our demands are met"..

To me (maybe only to me?) these two types of events seem incomparable, other than the fact that they are lawless events that the responsible agencies must address in the manner they deem correct.

PPS, it's getting late back there, no?

I don't know how many words a minute I read, but I sure wish I could read faster after reading all the words here that I did today.

Everyone, including me , should learn to right like travis/clark/dave.

other than that, I'm trying to get sleepy. Fell asleep for an hour or so this afternoon with hot pad on aching back. Paying for it by being awake now. To dark, cold, and damp to go out and play in the yard or garage, so this is the sum of it I guess.

Geno

PS, did you see what I did write there?

This ain't no grand conspiracy, regarding Finicum's death, it's basic math.

Don't wanna get on the Feds radar?

Don't run with a bunch of Farm Ninja's. Most definitely don't take over a Federal Facility, while displaying an arsenal,.

Don't wanna get on a short list of people the Feds wanna apprehend?

Don't open your pie-hole, while hanging with the Farm Ninja's, holding a Federal Facility illegally, and refusing to leave.

Don't wanna be the target of a well planned, and well executed Federal Felony Take-down?

Don't keep running your pie-hole to anyone with a microphone (I mean seriously, Finicum seems to have had a penchant for enjoying having phallic objects thrus towards his mouth) with phrases like "I'll die before I go to jail" "I won't go down without a fight" etc, while hanging with the Farm Ninja's, holding a Federal Facility illegally, and refusing to leave.

Don't wanna get shot dead by the Feds?

Don't ignore their directives when they pull you over. Don't flee their stop. Don't try ramming your way through a manned roadblock.

And, here's the Cliff Notes Summation.

Don't get out of your vehicle, flapping your arms and bouncing around like some gal has clamped onto your johnson with her one good tooth with every intention of hanging on for the full 8 seconds...while reaching into your jacket...while surrounded by armed Federal Agents who pretty much have had enough of your bullchit.

Yeah, I saw that...

You, apparently, read faster than me!

As to your Uranium statistics, nice.

Urnanium is really a not so interesting element... from locating it, to finding it, to extracting it, to, well, the next uses...

How that applies to Oregon and what happened there, I have no idea

Regards

AH,

Most everything you have said there is succinct and correct.

But are you sure about the conspiracy part. Them fellers were white (you know, like Caucasian white)so the gooberment musta had somethin' against 'em. More than thet, them fellers was clean cut an everythin'. Wasn't wearin' no gansta pant's down round their butts or nothin'.

Geno

PS sarcasm font off now.

OMG, it's everywhere, it's everywhere!

Probably in more places than water.

Geno

PS, "As to your Uranium statistics, nice."
Nothin' to it nowadays. didn't even hafta go to the lieberry. Right here at home on the innanet. It's got everything man knows on it............. and a lot more!

Somewhat...but even with the lie berry, the Iranians couldn't figure it out...

I think you are smarterrer than you let on...

Yuh know, I pondered long and hard on the conspiracy angle, and there's sumfin' to it.

If you think on it, what was Finicums first name?

Lavoy.

Now, he may have spent a lifetime passing as a gawd fearin' mossy oak clad, good ol' boy. But c'mon now, what white family names a boy Lavoy?

It'll out come out eventually, but I bet we find out he once sang back up for Earth Wind and Fire. Christ knows that was grounds for an execution all on it's own.

Silly negro, had he done as he was told, he'd still be on the dole, and we'd be paying his bills.

PS My sarcasm font button is stuck.

Oh, come now. Look at all the 'Occupier' threads. Clearly this topic is radioactive!

Well, I think they had it figured out, but every time they tried to enrich those fancy expensive machines get taken away by some Jewish cabal or something I think. Some new deal now, gonna provide them with it or something.

I can't keep up with what goes on around the 'fire, how the H am I supposed to keep up with the Persians?

Geno

PS, Ifn' I was smarterererr, I'd be retired and rich by now. Probably have me one of them concrete ponds an such.

For you dipshitts that can't see and/or read and who haven't seen the idiot running his gums on the news, here's how he's been strapped.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Riches are hard to get...no matter.

Concrete prob isn't the answer...I like to like water that is heavy.

Regards

Well,

GreatWaputi brings this back on topic!

Cheers!

ib,

well then, it needs some theme songs then:



this one even has lyrics (with reference to the prison bus):



and maybe the most fitting:



Geno

Good morning America!

PS It was all Geno's fault!

I kid, I kid...

Get some rest Geno, at least in this quarter!

Regards

Go to bed...

;-)

It was/is not my fault.

I live my live in the spirit of "plausible deniability"

I find it hard to believe I can be blamed for anything.

Geno

PS, if one can prove it, then I'm covered like all bad boys.....

the devil made me do it!

Reports I've seen said those pictures were taken from a normal airplane, not a "drone"

I just read through this and some of the comments scare the hell out of me.

Enlightening, isn't it?

No way that footage was shot from a plane.

Helo.

If the truck had gotten past that roadblock, we would have all seen they had more than a camera in the helicopter as well.

I remember in high school you could go to the video store and rent a series of movies called "Faces of Death"

It was a collection of video clips of people dying in various ways on camera and was generally considered so macabre that most people wouldn't watch it.

Amazing how numb we are to seeing people die on video now 25 years later.

That footage has all the characteristics of having been shot remotely (transitions and zoom too smooth) And why would a camera being used in a helo have 18 pieces of info that needed to be obscured, identifying among other things, the aircraft itself.
Probably been a drone up since day one or two.

John

I figured it was as drone as well - just because of how easily it tracked the truck - but the side angles seem low to me to be too high in the air

There are too many judgments based on Bias from both sides without knowing more facts that could change the perspective completely. What I am getting from this is a common consensus that it is a justified standard in general to use deadly force "Just in case". This concept scares the hell out of me, do they actually train Officers to think this way? Dad and Uncle Chuck as old School law Officers would be ashamed to hear of such a concept as this.

I know one thing...If the meeting they were going to with the Sheriff and Towns people might have brought about a resolution and peaceful end to this stand off it would have made the Feds look bad. No way in hell would they have let this happen, an example of what happens when you challenge authority was required in order to save face and justify all the effort and dollars spent on this situation.

My main curiosity and question is this, Could it be that they were fired on at the first stop and forced into a fight or flight situation and in immediate fear for their lives even though they were complying to directions? This would be a game changer as to who actually first escalated the situation to this end.

its just the reality of the world we live in now

there is no way a sane man is going to make the comments he made, run a road block, run out from his car and not have a very very high percentage of having lethal force used on him.

To your bigger point, protect and serve has been replaced with "get home safe tonight" as the police force motto which in turn has put them in a position where the public is the enemy they are in combat with.

Again, its a reality of the world we live in today.

and our federal government handing out armored plated vehicles, grenade launchers and the like to small town police forces is approval from them on these kinds of tactics and the overall mentality - although I did read that Obama told them to give that stuff back in the aftermath of public backlash about its misuse.

At a community meeting in Crane (Jan. 18), Bundy militia leader Ryan Payne advised that under the Constitution, "you have the lawful right to resist arrest to the point of lethal force" In that example he gave, it was killing a cop for arresting you for refusing to produce a driver's license.

Finicum was trying to win a fast draw contest with a bunch of people who already had their weapons trained on him, men who thought that at least some of the Bundy guys, including Finicum specifically, planned to try to kill them if an arrest was attempted. The results were predictable.

...you speculate.

Umm....

That would be a large majority of the posts here.

My main problem is the overwhelming self-interpretation and twisting of Constitutional Law. Reminds me of examples like the "Constitution Party" pushing and preaching the Constitution and "Freedom of Religion" as long as the Religion in question is understood to be a form of "Christianity". What?

For me I had to go back to the first domino that toppled and led to this unfortunate outcome. Even though the Official Narrative claims it was an "Occupation of a Federal Facility" it may have actually been completely legal for these guys to "Assemble and protest" in a public facility on public lands as long as they do not restrict anyone else's right to also come and go. Which it looks like they did not.

This is where the discussion truly needs to start. Were they actually breaking a law or not in the first place? From what I have been reading they may not have been unlawful and had every right to "assemble and protest" in a public facility on public lands as they claimed they were doing. Why were they not even charged with "Illegal Trespass" in this whole thing?

I would hope that someone in the aftermath investigates your points.

they're not charged with "trespass" , "occupation" or the like.

they're charged with "impeding the execution of duties of federal employees".

and they'll likely be adding lots and lots of "destruction of federal property" charges soon too. (I'm sure you've watched the videos of them bulldozing burial sites, fences, et al as well as thoroughly trashing the rooms in the main building).

they've done a whole lot more than "assemble and protest"....

Since when is destruction of federal property a crime? It happens every day in our Capital by our elected officials and nothing ever happened to them.

from what I have seen and read about this whole incident, he was set up, then murdered, by a dictatorship that selectively enforces laws, and selectively administers justice when doing so meshes with their goals.
We have an out of control, rogue government, at war with Citizens that push back. As I mentioned earlier, over the past 7 years, we have had a coup d'etat, and no one noticed.

Someone posted: "Finicum exits with both hands held high and then appears to put both hands down near his waste area when he is shot. No effort at all to give him aid. Just leave him lay there and bleed to death..."

I was a paramedic for many years, I have treated many, many gunshot patients.
The idea that a cop could "give aid" to a gunshot victim is rather far-fetched.
Yeah, if he got hit in the forearm, and the artery is pumping blood, if the cop put a tourniquet on it, it could save his life.
On the other hand, if he was shot in the forearm, and an artery was not hit, and the cop put a tourniquet on it, it could cause the arm to be so badly damaged that it would later need to be amputated. Easy to do more harm than good.

However most fatal wounds are to the torso. On a shot like that, there is NOTHING that a well-meaning bystander or cop could do to help the victim. This especially includes CPR, which is just worthless on trauma victims.

it is incomprehensible that this set up did not include paramedics on stand by, and at the site. If for no other reason, than to treat a wounded cop.

And as full well they should be if they trashed the place. But did "pending" charges such as these truly warrant a full sized, Grand Scale Federal occupation of a whole Community?

Just like they are now "pending"...these charges could have been brought up after the fact and dealt with on a smaller scale one by one.

Just saying I have trouble justifying the magnitude of action that resulted from such a Petty Charge...

IMO, I suspect it depends on how much damage they're continuing to do. It's not like they chose a random hangar in a deserted industrial park where waiting 'em out would be without consequence.

The damage they did / continue to do to the native american sites with the 'dozer may not be able to be undone later.

And keeping the biologists out of the refuge has temporal consequences as well. For example, the feeder water bodies to the main lake need to be treated for carp within the next two weeks, otherwise a decade of work goes up in smoke, threatening the viability of the entire ecosystem -- and by extension the entire Pacific Flyway.

they chose their "stand" exceedingly poorly....

I have to be honest and say that this is the first I have heard of these issues. Is there a possibility they may have been misconstrued? Digging with a Dozer doesn't always mean it was indeed a Native American Gravesite. I have heard that one over and over since I was real young, "You can't dig There! It's Sacred!" and it always came no matter where you were Digging.

But this does not justify Digging at all in the case of these guys.

So lock it down right at the Scene and take care of it as needed right there. I still see no justification for Occupying and intimidating a whole Community. This is not Iraq.

rost495 is a paramedic and has already chimed in on this.

Did you repeat these falsehoods enough you now believe them contrary to the video proving them false?

You claim rounds impacted the windshield but throughout the whole video the front windshield is intact and no bullet holes in the truck. These impacts are likely less lethal CS rounds that the FBI stated were used.

You claim in another thread that passenger indows were shot out even though the video shows all 4 passenger windows down at the first attempted stop and you admit by your above statements that the 18 yo witness states they had their hands out the open windows. How does LE shoot out windows that were down prior to this shooting?

The cops poured it on? WTF the FBI states 3 rounds were fired by officers and Finicum was hit 3 times.

Sadly the video and even your own statements nullify your delusional ramblings.

here's the thing on the carp abatement:

http://www.hcn.org/articles/carp-la...uld-set-back-conservation-by-three-years


http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2015/12/post_46.html


not only mucking up the carp control / water quality on the refuge but mucking up:

local commercial fishing jobs
local commercial processing jobs
local free fertilizer to the surrounding ranches

They threatened the Pacific Flyway? The fiends!

I've stayed out of this cluster as of late on purpose. I knew how it would go here, and it has. Everyone has an opinion. One thinks it's black, another says white. If you're in the minority, you're simply shouted down, belittled, told how stupid you are, etc etc etc. That says nothing about the person in the minority but it says plenty about the ones doing the beat down.

Someone suggests he got away from the rig as fast as possible to protect the others inside and draw fire away from them. If the rig was getting shot up, that could be. We don't know from just this video what was happening with the police and how many shots may have been fired. Supporting video's aren't forthcoming, so we're left to speculate and go by the eyewitness account.

I guess no one has considered that if he wanted a firefight with the cops, he would have used the truck as cover, not run out into the deep snow, in the open, away from his only cover. If he wanted a firefight, why run into the open with your hands in the air? Why bother with the pretense of surrender at all and not just come out blazing, rather than setting yourself up in the most vulnerable place you could be, out in the open, with your hands up? Hands up means surrender, in any language. When he realized he was about to be murdered, the game plan changed and he went for his gun. If they were already shooting the rig full of holes, it must have been impossible to just sit there and take it, get murdered. I wouldn't have.

If it had been me, and I was anticipating a firefight to the death, I would have had that gun on my lap while I was driving. But he didn't did he? He had it where it was slow and awkward to get to. Maybe because he had no intention of shooting it until he realized he was about to be murdered. If I was about to die in a firefight, the gun wouldn't be in the shoulder holster or pocket where I couldn't get to it. If I wanted to die shooting, my gun wouldn't be holstered!

We don't have ground video or sound so we have no idea how many shots were being fired and from where. We do know there was a shot by the passenger window at one point, how many others don't we know about? Where's the acknowledgement of that shot in the official report of "3 shots fired"? Does anybody think the police wouldn't open up with all the firepower they had once the shooting started? Dumb question, considering this is the campfire. Of course somebody would think they withheld heavy fire.

The biggest takeaway for me is how quickly they were able to produce a video. Just one, from the air, and without sound. Nothing from the ground, and no sound. That video might tell an entirely different story, but it's not available. No report of how many shots went into the vehicle, when, and with what provocation?

Funny how the authorities can produce a video in a few hours when it supports their agenda, but can't in the Yantis case for months. Really funny, in a not funny way.

The bottom line is, we have an oppressive govt that doesn't value it's citizens lives and shows no restraint in taking them.


There, that aughta keep the trolls busy for awhile.

Absolutely bullshcitt of the highest order. They may or may not have had EMS on standby but i assure you by they were not in the immediate area. NO EMS group is going into an unsecure scene, the scene is not secure until all suspects are detained. The FBI stated in their report it took 10 minutes to secure the scene at which time aid was rendered to Mr. Finicum.

The absolute first thing taught in any EMS course is scene safety and control, thats an unsafe scene until all subjects are detained plain and simple.

I'm not guessing here, 20 years of professional EMS and a stint as a SWAT medic.

I'm only quoting part of your post as there are parts i agree with, but I'm floored how you come to these conclusions.

The FBI stated 3 rounds fired and Finicum was struck 3 times, that we can agree on as the enhanced video shows him react to 3 rounds

You make several statementd alluding to the vehicle being shot up yet there is no visual indicator of any bullet holes in the truck.

You claim we "know there was a shot by the passenger window", how do we know this? Its not in the FBI report and there is no video evidence of this so again i ask how we supposedly know this information?

The 18yo female is the only person who claims the truck was fired upon and she claimed "atleast 100 sots fired", which we all can clearly see isn't true nor is there any visible damage to the truck.

One morning in '01 I started Coffee and sat down to watch the news. Just as the tube warmed up and a Picture became present there was a young Lady Reporter in tears with a Tower on Fire behind her. I thought "What is this?", then a Plane came in from behind a Second Tower and it too exploded into Flames.

I looked at my Wife and could only say one thing..."Everything is going to change now".

To this day A Homeless Person cannot receive a letter from their own Family. They can't get General Delivery, They can't get a P.O. Box and they now are forced into a position of Perjuring themselves and committing a crime because they have to lie about living somewhere they do not actually live just to get a return letter from Family.

Just because they cannot afford to pay rent and a power bill somewhere they are already prejudged and guilty of Terrorism. Many of these folks are Veterans who have already taken an oath and served their Country to the fullest of their ability. Now they are already deemed Terrorists because they have no "Proven" Physical Address.

As a Minister I find something inherently wrong with this whole thing and the willingness of those to Cage themselves and others against their will in the name of Safety. Be cautious of what you wish for...because you just might get it. This Topic Situation has displayed what we have to look forward to in the future.

As a former ff/medic the scene was not secure that's why no immediate EMS

I'll add she also stated," the police were firing for 5- 10 minutes". Anybody believe that either?

Well said and here is the problem...If the Young Lady was indeed telling the truth we will never hear it or see it.

This is the problem and where the Manipulation comes into play. Never question or doubt the official narrative.

A couple of things are evident to me....

1. If Finicum wanted a fire fight with the Feds or anyone else in the truck wanted to ( Before Hitting the Snow Bank) that he would have bailed out of the truck with his gun drawn.... since it has been pointed out in a picture that he carried routinely, one under his left arm and another one on his right hip....

I still think that "his reaching for his gun" was actually him reaching for the place a bullet just went thru his torso... which is a natural reaction...

2. This Video was released by the FBI... they claim the shooting was by an OSP officer...the FBI is releasing what they want the public to see.... are there those here who would say that the Federal Government, especially under this Administration WOULDN'T Doctor up something like this that they wanted the public to see...they are going way out of their way to prove something to public opinion....

Anyone who truly trusts the Federal Government, and especially under the Obama Administration, please raise their hand....

3. I went out to Burns for a reason... ( Just like I went up to Roseburg after the UCC shooting) I wanted to see what I saw with my own eyes... the Roseburg trip was an eye opener, to say the least...especially watching what was being reported.. which was orchestrated from afar... with the college as a back drop only....

I grew up predominantly around metro DC.. living there when many of the protest marches were on back in the late 60s...
anyone old enough Remember Resurrection City? and plenty of other "protests"....

You see these "occupy Wall Street" crowds, out to disrupt daily activity, commercially or governmental business...

Considering what little these "protesters" ( who become militants when they are dressed in camo ) were 'interrupting' in the scope of things, I've never seen the Feds give and prepare such an armed response...to anything domestically in my life...

There was no 'call out the National Guard' to "protect the citizens" of Burns.... the Refuge is 60 miles away, south of town on a Road, with no real crossroads to go anywhere else for 100 plus miles...

The Feds could have easily 'called out the National Guard', set up road blocks north and south of the Refuge Offices, and totally contained these folks.. 60 miles from town... allowing them no way to have basic needs or access to them..

heck if some fellow wannabes from where ever wanted to come out and support the occupiers, I bet half of them couldn't even find the Malheur National Refuge... its not like its a Tourist Attraction with Big Signs all over the place...plus you have to know where it is down Rte 205, which is about as well marked as something on an Easter Egg Hunt...

No the Amount of People I saw coming and going into Burns, with the strike force mentality.... convoy of Black or White SUVs, driving Bumper to Bumper, at high speed outside of Burns and coming into town, plus ignoring any and all traffic laws once in town...

Many dressed in combat gear ( I spent 6 years in the service, so I know what the heck that is) and these guys were over 'dressed' and armed... There were around half a dozen folks left at that Refuge.. 60 miles south of town...

yet they are barricading and Guarding Entry and exit points around town.. 60 miles from the Refuge...like the Court House... like the Hospital.. and other places I didn't see, but who knows...

The Feds also made sure the media was shuffled the hell out of there.. from the Refuge and there weren't a lot of them still hanging out around town from early Wednesday morning...

I've been around other "protest" issues like this in my life, and time in the military and National Guard, to know that this response was no where near the proportions required to do the job.. it was "OVERKILL" in the Nth degree..

Snipers at the Refuge, barricades, the place light up like a big rock concert going on...armored vehicles...

it was evident this entire fiasco response was authorized from far above any command stuff located here in the Pacific Northwest...most of the resources that were being used, sure aren't based out of or found in Burns Oregon...

This stuff was definitely hauled out there from places, and I would even venture to say, from somewhere outside of the Pacific NW... they might have had this stuff at Ft Lewis up in Washington.. but if you look at the Military Bases in the NW, it predominantly Navy, AF at McChord and Spokane... some Ammo Dumps at Umatilla.. and a big training area at Yakima....none of it set up to respond to stuff like this...

and being around town and seeing what I was seeing... it is quite evident, this response was from DC directly...the Administration on High.. and those out there had Carte Blanche to do what ever they deemed they needed to do to get this out of the news...and NO CITIZENS 'RIGHTS' WAS A CONCERN WHATSOEVER...NO MATTER WHO THEY WERE...

and it was quit evident, non of these Feds sent out there had to worry about any repercussions for any 'wrong doing'.... they were quite evidently not concerned about casualties among the occupiers or their supporters...

I was Medical Corp in the Service...the Military doesn't do anything without having med support immediately stationed right there... they don't even send a 3 vehicle convoy somewhere without medical support as part of it... and the Med Support stuff isn't all camo'ed up.. its well marked...

any military or Federal Marked Med Support was totally void
ANYWHERE!!... They definitely were not concerned about their own folks suffering any casualties...

and this video showing the road block of the Bundys going to John Day to speak at a meeting of Ranchers, at a meeting there... was done by a drone...with the AF's capabilities..
they can control drones flying in Iraq and Afghanistan from a bunker at Nellis AFB in Nevada.. so having a batch of them flying all over Burns and SE Oregon is a piece of cake..

That video was evident of being a drone... flying on a chopper crew for 2 years.. I can tell you it was no fixed wing A/C... the Bundys would have seen and heard that...

it wasn't a chopper for the same reasons, plus the operational expense of a chopper vs a drone is night and day...and the drone is more versatile...

The Road Blocks had how many vehicles and armed officers there? Yet NO med support... especially considering if they had gun fire planned to happen or to have to respond to...Evidently they didn't think their officers needed any...unless they had a medevac on standby at the What you might call an Airport outside of Burns...

was quite evident they were not concerned with any casualties among the Bundy crew.. yet evident that they knew the Bundy crew would be armed...

The Federal Government and the FBI are painting the picture they want the public to see, they had the community on available 'lock down' at the drop of a hat...they've gone out of their way to make sure the number of witnesses, were few and far between.....sanitizing public opinion as much as possible...

Is this what we want our Federal Government's response to be??? this was over a darn Refuge office, 60 miles from a town which itself is out in the middle of nowhere...

Essentially show up, lock a town down and come armed to the teeth, with full military resources available? drones over head, that can be armed also.. heck they are taking out terrorist leaders in the middle east all the time...

and the thought also, this "occupy" group wasn't looting, raping, burning etc...in a city no less....but they were White....

compare that to Ferguson and Baltimore... yet what was the Federal Response to that??? Plenty of people armed in Ferguson and Baltimore...

No these occupiers were asking for change in legislation and laws.. what were the rioters in Ferguson and Baltimore asking for??? I'm not talking about their leaders, what were those out looting, robbing, burning etc, asking for?

Remember a reporter asking a black guy in Ferguson, was he rioting and looting for the shooting of Michael Brown, and his response was Michael WHO?

and note, the media wasn't chased out of Ferguson or Baltimore.... but they were told to leave the Refuge out there at gunpoint and told not to come back... and if they didn't leave RIGHT NOW, they'd be considered part of the protesters and could be shot at also....

Those approving of the Feds response to all of this, really ought to consider what you are approving of...

who cares if these folks were occupying a darn refuge 60 miles past a town in the middle of nowhere? and remember there were only about 8 or so protesters left out there...
and there were easily 400 to 500 Federal "officers" in camo gear just in Burns, and plenty more heading south on Rte 205 toward the Refuge... and about anyone of them you saw was sporting a loaded M16 with full combat gear on...

I've seen riot gear and I've seen combat gear... this was definitely more upscale than riot gear...

you had no rights unless these Feds said you had any rights... and that was at the personal discretion of who was running the show in town...

any Constitution this country may have was null and void in Burns Oregon.. it was worth less than toilet paper...

maybe if something happens at or near your home, and pisses off Washington DC, you can experience all of this for yourself...

and as someone pointed out.... If they had this kind of response to the illegal traffic that crosses the Mexican border, and the Illegal Drug flow, that wouldn't be happening in this country....

guess 20 Rednecks at a Refuge in nowhere Oregon is more of a concern to Washington DC politicians than the crap that goes on at our southern border is...

This video has done nothing but fuel speculation. Was he reaching for a possible weapon? Maybe. Was he reacting to a wound? Perhaps. When were the first shots fired? At the initial stop as claimed by the young woman in the car? That question isn't answered either. All we have are more questions. Is a soundless video from an airborne camera all that is available? That seems difficult to believe, but perhaps it is so. If ground level video that incriminated the FBI were available would they release it? If it vindicated them would they release it?

Considering the video and two of the other people in the truck directly contradict her version (and all their versions match each other), it ain't hard to see she wasn't exactly accurate in her take.

This was a Federal Op for the Road Block...

I've been a paramedic and EMT....

I've also been a Military Medic, on the ground and in the air on a medevac unit....

In a civilian world, you can point out lack of "Scene Safe"...

but in a Federal situation like this, I guarantee ya, the Feds aren't going to let their personnel lay there and bleed to death, and worry about Scene Safe Procedures..

In the military we are trained to treat casualties, Under Fire... not Scene Safe Procedures...

I can also guarantee ya, the Feds are not going to rely on Emergency Medical Treatment for their personnel, by an EMT or Paramedic from the Civilian World based out of Burns Oregon..

for their own officers and personnel, they are going to have their own resources, either on scene are close by via Air Support...like a Med Evac fired up and ready to go at the drop of a hat...

I'd pretty much bet they had Folks with Paramedic experience plus on scene in case one of their own was shot...procedure, they are not going to have that many armed personnel out there, that far from medical attention....

they had zero motivation to give any medical attention to the Bundy crowd, or obligation for that matter...strictly if nothing else by protocol...

I have learned a lot reading this thread and the other one on the same subject. I list my newfound ideas below.

1) this was an out and out ambush and it was uncalled for. These were just poor, hard working ranchers who found themselves homeless and moved into an empty building to keep warm.

2) They use a bulldozer to make some improvements and did some inside remodelling.

3) While on a sight seeing trip the were accosted by a bunch of bad guys who seemed to be mad at them.

4) There were a bunch of these bad guys all around the truck when it got stuck in a snow bank.

5) The bad guys killed all the homeless ranchers by shooting thousands of bullets into the truck.

6) Only one guy made it out of the truck and he was shot hundreds of times while his hands were in the air.

7) The bad guys should have had hundreds of EMS personnel between the bad guys and the truck. EMS should have helped the poor, homeless rancher out of the truck and held him up on both sides so he could not slip and hurt himself.

8) If the bad guys wanted to speak with the poor, homeless ranchers they only needed one who was unarmed and standing in his underwear in the road with a "Please Stop" sign in hand.

9) this whole thing could have been settled if the bad guys sent one unarmed spokesman to the building in question with a wagon full of beer and they could have sat down and worked it all out.

Have I missed anything?

ain't nothing new in that observation..

when shooting starts.... its not unusual to have 12 differing opinions of what happened out of a group of 10 people...

maybe she was FOS... and maybe that is what she thought she saw...

nothing unusual, someone has five bullet shots at them ( or they even hear 5 shots) and they will think to themselves the officer emptied an entire 30 round magazine at them....

so what each person reports has to be taken with a grain of salt, whether it supports ones opinion or doesn't...

so? That means the subject is closed? chuckling

Not dead or closed, Sam, but a professional opinion as to why no one rushed into deep snow to render aid to an armed man who had just been shot when at least two other armed suspects were still active in the vehicle.

And then there was an alternative response from another qualified source. ...

Nothing like reducing a serious situation to a comical situation. Unfortunately the release of this Video was intended to do exactly that. Divide and cause disruption to the point that in the end it is presented as funny and acceptable.

Well played Indoctrination and dismissal of how serious this situation truly is for the future Freedom and Prosperity of my Grandkids. Somehow I don't find a bit of it worth making light of. Just or not a HUMAN BEING died. And it truly is just possible it could have been prevented.

I hope that when my Grandkids are reading about this in History I am still around to help them question the official "The Earth is still Flat" narrative.

I wasn't going to ligitimize his post with a response. This has generally been a very good thread full of thoughtful, albeit sometimes impassioned and hasteful, responses. I'm all for joking around and while this might not be the best thread for jokes, at least Scott F was respectful and maintained a modicum of grammar.

whatever. It's still bogus, and still wrong, and still smoke up someone's azz. But if professionals agree it's the right thing, who am I............ disgusted.

Kingston...

Scott F is good folk....period...

Hell Scott's such a laid back, get along with everyone kind of guy, he's even put up with me for a week or so... and that's saying something about tolerance...

why I'm being honest here... I'm going to step in for Ingwe and the Montana Spell Check Police here...

People were posting that Finicum was reaching 'into his waste for a gun...'

you reach into your WAIST for your firearm...not your waste...

reaching into your WASTE is like reaching into your Trash for your gun....

So when Ingwe reads this, he'll know that this has already been addressed...

"you can thank me latter".. as our Campfire Yoda from Alaska Says...

Can you provide a link to or citation for the eye witness statements you're referring to?

They got more of an opportunity to surrender than Hammer would have given.

Can I ask you to re-read my post? It wasn't a flame.

The video isn't enough. There could very easily be more facts evident from ground video, or even audio. But, consider who's doing the releasing of that video and their motivation, and all bets are off unless the video is complete.

I can't conclude the police didn't shoot that rig from the quality of that video. Heck, why wouldn't they? Shooting it up would be consistent with their assertion that he was going for his gun, ran the roadblock, there were other (presumably bad) people in the car, etc

And the biggy, what other testimonies are you reading? Please link me to those. BUT EVEN THEN, consider that they might be written or oral statements made after the FBI had them in custody, and could therefore be corrupt by virtue of the FBI having struck an immunity or lessened sentence deal with them in exchange for a "massaged" testimony. Does anyone think the govt wouldn't do it? I put nothing past the guv.

I consider the girls testimony to have a much higher likelihood of having NOT been tampered with, but she could still be worng, miscounting from 3 to mean 100 shots.

Sam,

Finicum being shot and then left laying there like a shot coyote, concerns me also.. both as a citizen and someone who has worked as a paramedic...

But in the real world, with Protocol, the Feds are under no obligation to render aid to the shot 'suspect'....

and also protocol, they are obligated to render their own medical support if the scene isn't safe for them, which it was not with suspects still in the vehicle and the Cops not knowing if they were armed or not...

Sure they would render life saving procedures to one of their own under fire if need be to save their lives...they aren't going to let one of their own die or bleed out...

the average body only holds 6 litres of blood, and you loose one litre, you are pretty much screwed as blood flow can't keep the brain functioning...

hate to say it, but if nothing else... Finicum was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and his actions did him no favors... even his actions and verbage before he ever got into that pickup to drive up to John Day...

Personally I believe he was ordered to be sacrificed, ahead of time, to just show the rest of them, the Feds weren't screwing around....

everything I saw out in Burns when I was there, is that the Feds were going for maximum intimidation factor in everything they did...

The shoo'ed the press away from the compound and told not to come back even threatening them... at gun point...

yet in town they were being as high profiled as possible, and definitely strutting they were armed and heavily...even being intimidating when you were talking to them...

but even that not considered.... they were under no obligation or protocol to render aid to Finicum...or anyone else that might have been shot, until each of the others were in custody and made to not be a threat...

The Feds have shown and said all they are going to say on the subject...

I didn't take it as such....

just I know Scott, he's one of the good guys...
and you seem like a pretty darn decent guy also...

just hate to see, two decent guys get at odds on the forum, which I have seen in the pass...

maybe a knee jerk reaction on my part...

to quote Rodney King, can't we all get along???

and you have to admit, there has been a lot of name calling on this thread, based strictly over differences in opinions and interpretations...

You think someone should charge into deep snow to render aid to an armed and shot felony suspect while at least two other armed felony suspects are in the vehicle and NOT under control?

Would you say the same if it was a Crips or Bloods or MS-13 gang member or a Muslim?

That's a suicide mission to go out there at that point, without cover or concealment at close range and within the field of fire of at least two armed suspects.

There will, at a minimum, be more (many, I'm sure) pictures of the scene available at some point. I would think (hope) more video as well. Whether *we see it or just those that actually matter is another issue entirely. It's going to be irrelevant to some, through. The pics could show the truck without a hole in it and some would swear the feds fixed it.

For now, I'll take what I've seen. I understand FB's desire to it his belief in the female's story. Personally, I think she's FOS, but I'll allow that she could have been overwhelmed by the situation rather than a liar.

George

Scott,

dang, you nailed it.

13 pages only.

Guess I'm done now. No need to figure it out past your description.

Hope you're enjoying the rain/sun mix today. Maybe some snow tomorrow?

Geno

Lol...I understand what you say here. But I was with the understanding that I was supporting your stance in this debate.

Now you are complaining about how well the motor might or might not run because you don't like the Color it was painted?

You do realize there that are more than one creative style of expressive writing right?

It truly depends on who will be judging the Brush Strokes while reading it.

Sometimes it is wise not to Brandish...:)

This makes lots of sense. I've asked several times, "who was the shooter(s)?" It's not clear in the video who's doing the shooting. The man who came out of the woods, up on the hill, appears to possibly shoot with his left hand. From where and at what point the other 2 shots are taken doesn't seem to be evidenced by the footage. If, the FBI released this video knowing that the victim's erratic arm movements were a reaction to being shot, this would be a profound breach of the public's trust.

Yea, there's been some, but I really am impressed with the discussion. I wrote a long post yesterday celebrating this. It identified some of the things I've learned from this discussion and how it's influenced my internal dialog and thinking about my own bias. I decided not to publish it and spare you all. Thanks for the generous thoughts.

In the heat of the thread-- grammar, punctuation, spelling, and diction all suffer. Conjunctions and possessives seem to take the brunt of it. God bless our resident schoolmarms.

My post was meant more as sarcasm than humour.

Yes LEO presents was strong. That was meant to stop any big shoot out rather than to just kill someone. The numbers should have prevented any bloodshed. The non lethal rounds fired at the truck should have had the desired result to cause overwhelming panic and save lives. One man made a choice to end his life. His choice. I wish he had made a different choice but there is nothing I can do to change any of it.

Back to the cause. The Hammonds case stinks worse that a road hit skunk after three days in a hundred degree heat. It is a case than needs to be remembered not forgotten in the mess the Bundy bunch started. The charges and the prison terms are way out of line. The feds lording it over US citizens just for the fun of it must be stopped.

The Bundy bunch stepping in did more to hurt the Hammonds case than the did any good and this mess we are talking about now does more to bury the real problem.

Then there is the issue that one man decided to end his life by pulling a gun while being covered bu a bunch of LEOs leaving a bunch of fatherless kids. No one won here.

Look guys the question still remains...Were they barraged and ambushed at the first stop without true justification? This we may never know but should at least be a question in this whole mess.

It did not look to me like he was shot before dropping his hands but that is just me and we will not know unless body cam video is released. If it is not released then I may change my opinion based on that alone. I would also like to see close up pictures of the truck.

If only what he stated were true to this sitiation but sadly it isnt. This is a tactical operation, not a military operation, therefore any leo gsw victims will be moved to safety and then treated. Noone in the tactical world treats injured subjects out in the open!

The FBI also isnt the military and thus doesnt travel with military medics or medivacs, they too have PM trained individuals assigned to their team.

As far as medivac goes there are multiple air ambulance helos within 30 minutes of Burns and i wouldnt be surprised if one was spun up on its pad, but it wouldnt be a military bird.

Again what do i know i only actually was a Swat medic.

And your position and opinion should be respected Sir. Thing is there is a pattern to all this that truly needs to be exposed for what it truly is. I have stories to share from the 70's when the BLM "Took Over" the Grazing and Ranching Industry.

Things have not become better for the environment or ecology in these areas but they have indeed caused quite a few individuals to "Disappear" over the years. There is much more to this than what you see or what they share my Friend.

Lose a few of your own and it might just change your perspective of the real situation...

Have you even watched the enhanced videos? They show there is no holes in the truck. The girl is the only one who claims the truck was fired on, not Ryan Bundy who was in that seat. She claims 100 rounds fired but the truck is intact in the video. Not 1 part of her statement has been proven true by the video or anyone else present and in fact members of her group have stated she is wrong.

She is the only person to claim a shot was taken at the passenger window, noone else on scene collaborates that. Odd dont you think?

The only person claiming an ambush is the 18yo girl, noone else has made that claim in their statements. If there was any ambush you can bet your ass the Bundy lawyer would have saif so as would the other folks who were detained and released. Instead their statements so far directly contradict her story.

When video and every other statement contradict the statement of 1 then one must consider the accuracy.

Here is a failry well zoomed and enhanced video showing the truck. Less lethal CS rds can be seen being fired at approx 140-145 but notice the truck isnt shot up at all.

It also clearly shows Finicum reaching inside his jacket twice prior to being shot.

https://youtu.be/azmSAgTO4M4

The only eyewitness account I know of is that of the 18 y/o woman in the vehicle. If anyone has links to any other accounts please post them.
This link is supposed to be a zoomed in version of the FBI video. In the video his hands appear to go to his torso several times. He could easily be clutching at multiple gunshot wounds. As I said before, this video proves nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiuIN2DO6vo

go trump

Thank you for your patience Rick...This has got to be the most diverse and open debate about the current events I have found yet on the Net.

What happened to those days when all we concerned ourselves about as daily news was who won a Ballgame or how big a Fish so and so caught?

Those REAL days could be available again...And I hope for my Great Grandchildren this can be true.

well said, Bugout.

I see lots of opinions and assumptions.

While there may not be many people agreeing with either the occupiers, or the way the whole thing was handled by the Federales, the one thing that still blares a flashing neon light is the way the public lands are being administered now.

It's even hard to get the message through to people on THIS website that ranchers and hunters on public lands are standing in the same boat, and when shots are fired into the hull by the opposition at one target, they both go down with the boat...

Many here take the side of the govt. because they simply don't want to risk losing free hunting.

Mark McConnell the driver of the jeep posted a video to Facebook where he claims to have spoken to Ryan Payne and Shawna Cox who were in Finicums truck and subsequently arrested. Both allegedly stated to McConnell that Finicum wanted to fight it out and got out of the truck to do so.

McConnell also recounts an argument Payne and Finicum had where Payne wanted to surrender and Finicum wanted to fight.

McConnell repeatedly dismisses the statements made by the 18yo as not consistant with the stories of Payne and Cox.

https://youtu.be/ibbVgfiXeHI



I am 110% in support of the cattle ranchers and public use of these lands, anyone who thinks its on the up and up is either uninformed or chooses not to accept the reality. That said Bundy and his boys only set back any progress that was forthcoming by their actions.

The only solution will be public education and through the legal system. This isnt grade school and an eye for an eye doesnt work in our world.

Somebody please tell me what the hell hit the truck at 1:18 and 1:44 in that video, if not bullets.

Poor thing probably has PTSD.

The impacts look 100% consistent with CS clouds from the sponges as launched from a less lethal device

.223, 9mm, 40 etc wouldn't make a smoke cloud like that on impact with sheetmetal.

Flash bangs and pepper sponges.

It was in the narrated video and posted here 2 or 3 times.

Thank you. I was having trouble reconciling what was going on with the little puff.

What if She is right? Would this change your perspective?

Let me tell you a short story about my early manhood. I was the Son of a Cop and my Uncle was a CHP at the time and Cops do NOT lie...

I was busted with just under an once of good weed. When I went for arraignment the judge said "You have been charged with possession of a half once of Marijuana a controlled substance...how do you plea?".

I replied "I will plea guilty to possession of just under an once your honor" "Which if I am not mistaken is a misdemeanor infraction now in this State? Then I asked him..."Where did the other half disappear to your honor?".

He looked at the Officer who was staring at the floor and would not look up as the judge stated...Case dismissed Mr.. I don't want to see you back. I thanked him and walked to the door out of the court room.

Fortunately there was enough traffic in and out the Door I was able to catch what happened after I left. "Officer ... We have been through this before and I would have never known if it had not been for this young Gentleman's honesty" STOP IT!

True Story...But Never doubt an expert witness with no reason to lie...

I have been saying for years if hunters and LO's would unite we would be unstoppable.

The road block is always the "price" of wildlife. (Around here anyways)

The video of Mark McConnell is interesting. It is not, however, the direct testimony of Ryan Payne or Shawna Cox. If we are going to be skeptical of the testimony of the 18 y/o girl we should probably be skeptical of his as well.

Unfortunately her recorded statements have already been shown to be fraught with inaccuracies. I

If LE is found to have lied whether on a report or in court ALL of their testimony is considered tampered and thrown out, why shouldnt we apply the same standard to her statements. Surely as an adult she knows right from wrong and should be reasonably expected to be capable of articulating what she saw truthfully.

Here are some examples of why i find her statements should be discredited.
1. She claims LE fired on Finicums truck during the first stop yet none of the others make this claim. If LE fired why wouldnt everyone make the same claim since all were present?
2. She claims LE shot out the windows of the truck yet all 4 windows are clearly down prior to the initial stop of both vehicles and the windshield remains intact throughtout the entire video. So i ask how can LE shoot out windows that are clearly already rolled down?
3. She claims Ryan Bundy was shot by LE during the initial stop. yet noone else makes this claim, they claim he suffered a injury due to possible shrapnel. If Bundy was possibly shot then why wouldn't their group be all over that?
4. She claims she hid on the floorboard from the time Finicum fled yhe initial stop until the time she was taken out of the vehicle yet she claims to have seen LE fire 100 rds. How can she see this on the floorboard with the doors closed?
5. She claims the truck was shot up yet the vehicle appears entirely intact throughout the video. If the truck was shot up it would be evident. Bullets almost always take paint off metal around the impact, this effect should be magnified by the cold weather yet isn't present.
6. She claims after hitting the snowbank Finicum intended to walk towards town to "speak with the sheriff", yet we clearly see Finicum exit the vehicle and run AWAY from town. Also no visible LE in front of the truck yet he runs back to where he knows there is LE.
7. She claims to have witnessed LE shoot Finicum when he was on his knees with his hands up. Yet the video clearly shows he was never on his knees and in fact standing when shot with obvious distance between the snow line and his waist. How can a witness who is that close mistake whether Finicum was standing or on his knees?

I'm sorry but not a single statement she made has been proven or likely plausible based on what is shown in that video and several things she claims are flat proven wrong already through the video and other witness statements.

And the Folks in the Car knew this what these weapons were how?

Was there a big sign stating "These are only Flash Bangs and Pepper Sponges and We are only trying to subdue you not kill you"???

"Disregard all the bullets going through your vehicle because we will never let it get out that these shots at you were real"

Really, how do know or think the whole factual truth will ever prevail in this event?

Guilty or not, I want the whole story and all the evidence. Anything less is an attempt to play me as a fool.

Mannlicher, sometimes I think you are a grumpy yet harmless old fart who lives in a condo in Florida, who has to go to his suburban house in order to photograph his guns in the backyard. But once in a while the curtain drops, and you are revealed in all your bat-schidt crazy glory.

Sycamore

He's WIDE AWAKE...

maybe you two could share a bunker.

Sycamore nailed it and you are just as far down that rabbit hole as Mannlicher is.

Let's be honest here. You live in Montana and do not have a Bunker? I'm pretty sure you do, in fact if you guys up there play your cards right the whole State Could be a Bunker. Just let your Banks deal in GOLD. lol

wow, dude. I don't know anyone with a bunker except a survivalist cult that thought the world was ending a few years ago.

Call it what you may Gentlemen...

but what I see is a sad day in American History, regardless of how it went down....

and a big Thank you to Mallard Addict for his input and perspective.... despite my experiences, I yield to his perspective of being a SWAT team Medic, which would be more in play than this being a Military Operation...

But regardless, what I saw in Burns, it was Hard to Tell Who was WHO without a program... as far as Federal Agencies... not much of this stuff or these guys were well marked with whoever they were....

Heck they could have been Martians or Russians, for all we know....

I do think they could have taken down Finicum without shooting him.. beanbag him and then taze him...he was out in the open...

not being an LEO, so take that into consideration...but If I was there, I'd be more concerned about those in the truck and not being able to clearly see if they were a threat or not...

and I repeat the entire thing from Start to Finish is a sad page in American History..... on both sides...