MISSOULA, Mont. - Residents packed Missoula’s City Council meeting Monday as council members discussed a proposed ordinance regulating background checks for gun purchases.
The council voted and passed the ordinance with an 8-4 decision.
The ordinance requires private sellers to complete a background check before selling a gun. That means if you're a gun owner and want to sell your firearm to a friend or colleague, you're required to run a background check on the buyer.
Public opinion tonight at the meeting was divided. Some residents cheered as the ordinance was passed, while others left disappointed.
The vote makes Missoula the first city in the state to require a background check for private firearms sales.
The issue has flooded the city council with hundreds of emails in support and against.
City council member Bryan von Lossberg drafted the proposed legislation. He says the ordinance is all about saving lives and reducing suicides and domestic violence. He also says the goal is to decrease the number of guns in the hands of those not allowed to legally possess firearms. That includes but is not limited to convicted felons, adjudicated mental incompetents, illegal aliens or minors.
"First and foremost it's just a responsible action to do. Nobody is under any illusion, especially myself, that this solves all issues. It doesn't. It's one tool in a whole suite of tools and actions and programs, but I'm convinced by the data that it saves lives," von Lossberg added.
Some city council members still oppose the legislation. "I find it ironic that to suppress possession of felons we're going to regulate gun sales," said city council member Harlan Wells. "We're trying to legislate from the bottom up and it's wrong." He's also worried about potential government over-reach.
City boundaries are also important for gun owners to keep in mind. If you're a gun owner within city limits and want to sell your gun, you'd have to get a background check on your potential buyer. However, outside of city boundaries, but within the county, the ordinance would no longer apply.
Von Lossberg says average gun owners would not be able to conduct background checks themselves because the tools to conduct them are only available to licensed dealers. He says many licensed dealers are not equipped to conduct background checks for the private gun owners, but some businesses are gearing up for the changes.
There are some exceptions to the ordinance. Those exempt from the law would include gun owners who are selling or transferring firearms to an immediate family member or someone with a concealed weapons permit, for transfers of curio and relic firearms between collectors or for transfers of antique firearms, and some instances of temporary transfer or loans for hunting, target shooting or competitions.
"(The ordinance) takes a significant step in the direction of setting the example that says 'We do this, and we want you to do it.' It (will be) the law if it passes, but we want you to (support it) because this is what benefits the community overall," von Lossberg added.
As for gun shows, von Lossberg says it should not affect sales. He says most gun show operators are already required to conduct background checks.
Missoula residents are divided on the issue.
Casey Vielle says, "We've got all sorts of people flipping out with guns. A lot of people get hurt from selling the wrong guns to the wrong people."
Missoula resident Phil Wiggen says something should be done about the process of background checks, but does not think the proposed ordinance is the best way. "I don't need a background check (if I'm selling to someone) I have known for years."
Stupid laws deserve to be broken.
The town isn't all that big, just drive outside the city limits.
The town isn't all that big, just drive outside the city limits.
This.
Stupid laws deserve to be broken.
I'm getting more and more used to it the older I get.
Impossible to enforce, and violates state law.
Local law that contradicts state or federal law within the same legal areas are not worth the paper they are written on.
They could pass a law allowing slavery. But it wouldn't make it enforceable.
Who they gonna get to enforce it?
The sheriff? The local police?
Rotsa Ruck.
The town isn't all that big, just drive outside the city limits.
Yep. Then we will hear about the city limit loophole!
Thought Montana was...oh a politician nevermind.
Take a tip from obama. Do not recognize laws you don't like.
Thought Montana was...oh a politician nevermind.
Missoula is our Liberal arts college town.
In most cases local laws can require more than state laws, just not less... apparently the new law doesn't say that it is disallowing private sells, just that a background check is required. I'd think that unless state law specifically states that private sells can be made without a background check, resident's are just plain [bleep]-out-of-luck... you could probably sue stating that it is some kind of infringement, but don't think that would go anywhere, unlike city's that tried to ban sells!
Phil
Impossible to enforce, and violates state law.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
Best of luck trying to enforce!
it's good to have state laws that spell out explicitly that county & local laws can't exceed state law limits or requirements. that stops that work-around graveyard dead.
Montana State legislator's needs to squash this now, in it's infancy, before it becomes a nightmare like Oregon.
That is what they did here in Idaho and it has worked well.
Except as expressly authorized by state statute, no county, city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of this state may adopt or enforce any law, rule, regulation, or ordinance which regulates in any manner the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, transportation, carrying or storage of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition.
Take a tip from obama. Do not recognize laws you don't like.
Particularly, the unconstitutional ones.
Another beautiful place to live, ruined be pinhead liberals.
Excuse me, Councilman VonLossberg. Can you tell me exactly how many criminals will obey this law? Because if you can't, I can.
now let's see them enforce it.
SIMPLE...drive outside city limits.
Local law that contradicts state or federal law within the same legal areas are not worth the paper they are written on.
They could pass a law allowing slavery. But it wouldn't make it enforceable.
Rotsa Ruck.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^
Power hungry control people should be charged when they pass illegal law, just like folks that break the law.
Montana Code Annotated 2015
Clickable Image
45-8-351. Restriction on local government regulation of firearms. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit may not prohibit, register, tax, license, or regulate the purchase, sale or other transfer (including delay in purchase, sale, or other transfer), ownership, possession, transportation, use, or unconcealed carrying of any weapon, including a rifle, shotgun, handgun, or concealed handgun.
(2) (a) For public safety purposes, a city or town may regulate the discharge of rifles, shotguns, and handguns. A county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit has power to prevent and suppress the carrying of concealed or unconcealed weapons to a public assembly, publicly owned building, park under its jurisdiction, or school, and the possession of firearms by convicted felons, adjudicated mental incompetents, illegal aliens, and minors.
(b) Nothing contained in this section allows any government to prohibit the legitimate display of firearms at shows or other public occasions by collectors and others or to prohibit the legitimate transportation of firearms through any jurisdiction, whether in airports or otherwise.
(c) A local ordinance enacted pursuant to this section may not prohibit a legislative security officer who has been issued a concealed weapon permit from carrying a concealed weapon in the state capitol as provided in 45-8-317.
History: En. Sec. 1, Ch. 589, L. 1985; amd. Sec. 11, Ch. 759, L. 1991; amd. Sec. 3, Ch. 384, L. 2011.
Missoula city council "feels" it's the thought
that counts.
Missoula, only 20 miles from Montana!
City boundaries are also important for gun owners to keep in mind. If you're a gun owner within city limits and want to sell your gun, you'd have to get a background check on your potential buyer. However, outside of city boundaries, but within the county, the ordinance would no longer apply.
In most cases local laws can require more than state laws, just not less... apparently the new law doesn't say that it is disallowing private sells, just that a background check is required. I'd think that unless state law specifically states that private sells can be made without a background check, resident's are just plain [bleep]-out-of-luck... you could probably sue stating that it is some kind of infringement, but don't think that would go anywhere, unlike city's that tried to ban sells!
Phil
Yeah but in this case it doesn't hold water, plus we will tell them to just GFY.
You need to get out of Kalifornia.
I love Alaska, here is some selected text from Alaska House Bill HB69 that was passed in 2013:
FINDINGS. The legislature finds that:
(1) a statute, regulation, rule, or order that has the purpose, intent, or effect of confiscating any firearm, banning any firearm, limiting the size of a magazine for any firearm, imposing any limit on the ammunition that may be purchased for any firearm, or requiring the registration of any firearm or its ammunition infringes on an Alaskan's right to bear arms violation of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and, therefore, is not made in accordance with the Constitution of the United States, is not authorized by the Constitution of the United States, is not the supreme law of the land, and, consequently, is invalid in this state and shall be considered null and void and of no effect in this state;
Alaska is the greatest state in the nation with no close second.
50 years ago, Missoula was a nice college town with a true western attitude, and well-located for climate. 30 years ago it looked like the pod of bad seed that would bring social corruption to the Bitteroot Valley. The power people at the base got what they wanted and the corruption has backed up and up that lovely valley ever since.
I love Montana - but not that aspect.
In most cases local laws can require more than state laws, just not less... apparently the new law doesn't say that it is disallowing private sells, just that a background check is required. I'd think that unless state law specifically states that private sells can be made without a background check, resident's are just plain [bleep]-out-of-luck... you could probably sue stating that it is some kind of infringement, but don't think that would go anywhere, unlike city's that tried to ban sells!
Phil
So often wrong but never in doubt.
Seattle passed no carry in city parks. It got ruled down because of the pr-emption clause. They can't make illegal what is legal in the rest of the state. Of course since then they passed I-594 which does the background check on all private sales as well as some other draconian crap. This year we get to vote on an initiative that will allow anyone to call you crazy to the authorities and they can take your guns. No due process whatsoever.
What??.... You own a GUN???..... You must be NUTS!!!!....That's the thought process of a lot of those asswipes.
Is this where we get on the fire and rail on the conservative posters from Montana for the actions of the liberals? That's how it goes right?
I don't think you'll find one self respecting Montanan(anywhere) that is in support of Missoula politics.
Their liberal mentality will no doubt eventually ruin Montana but hopefully I'll be too old to give a chit.
I have been stopping in Missoula since 1972.
It has changed a lot with people moving in from out of state.
I have been stopping in Missoula since 1972.
It has changed a lot with people moving in from out of state.
Out of state liberal transplant because of the University make it a special place, really no one in Missoula or outside will bide by the law. It's just liberal pandering by window lickers. I think Missoula also has the highest taxes in the state, and the most regulation. It's the the a vortex of idiots.
5 years ago I stopped at a truck stop in Bonner just outside Missoula.
3 proffesors asked me if they could borrow a gas can from my boat to rescue one of their cars that would not start.
When they came back still without the car, I asked about the car. "Does the engine turn over fast, slowly, or not at all?"
They just looked at me. I told them there was a Cheech and Chong bit from 1970 where the engine spins fast "rRrRrRrRr" and Cheech yells, "Cool it man! Any idiot can see the battery is dead!"
The woman professor laughed, but the two men proffesors just stared at me blankly.
I asked what the men taught at the University in Missoula [guessing in my mind it was NOT engineering], and was told "Middle Eastern culture"
Not much damn reason to go to that side of the state.
Even less now.
Love all the comments about Missoula from those that do not live in Missoula. It is very easy to live in Missoula and completely avoid the liberal and hippie crap.
Chief of Police was on the evening news and said the ordnance would only be enforced when a complaint is filed. Not worried.
I did not say I was never going back. My sister lives there.
I just said there was less reason now.
I hate big cities, chain saw bears, huckleberry everything and expensive coffee.
It's best I stay away.
There have been states that have put teeth in their preemption law. 'Bout time that caught on. Fines, freedom to sue, and all that.
I grew up near that liberal cesspool. Sad deal that place is. The liberals have straight up taken over that area and as expected, ruined it.
Another example of local governments being even more corrupt than state/feds.
Relax Jim, I wasn't targeting you in my comment.
Lived in Bozeman for many years and Missoula for the past three years. I agree Missoula is a liberal town and with the hippies displaying their occasional crap.
However, exactly how has Missoula been "ruined"? Factual examples would be great. Granted, there may be other places in Montana I would prefer to live.
Haha! I know, it was an attempt at humor.
I do like the wine that comes out of that Valley.
Good stuff, but I still don't like chainsaw bears.
In most cases local laws can require more than state laws, just not less... apparently the new law doesn't say that it is disallowing private sells, just that a background check is required. I'd think that unless state law specifically states that private sells can be made without a background check, resident's are just plain [bleep]-out-of-luck... you could probably sue stating that it is some kind of infringement, but don't think that would go anywhere, unlike city's that tried to ban sells!
Phil
Guess you've never heard of State Preemption.
Stupid laws deserve to be broken.
THAT...
The town isn't all that big, just drive outside the city limits.
And THAT..
Take a tip from obama. Do not recognize laws you don't like.
Particularly, the unconstitutional ones.
EXACTLY!
Power hungry control people should be charged when they pass illegal law, just like folks that break the law.
Montana Code Annotated 2015
Clickable Image
45-8-351. Restriction on local government regulation of firearms. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit may not prohibit, register, tax, license, or regulate the purchase, sale or other transfer (including delay in purchase, sale, or other transfer), ownership, possession, transportation, use, or unconcealed carrying of any weapon, including a rifle, shotgun, handgun, or concealed handgun.
(2) (a) For public safety purposes, a city or town may regulate the discharge of rifles, shotguns, and handguns. A county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit has power to prevent and suppress the carrying of concealed or unconcealed weapons to a public assembly, publicly owned building, park under its jurisdiction, or school, and the possession of firearms by convicted felons, adjudicated mental incompetents, illegal aliens, and minors.
(b) Nothing contained in this section allows any government to prohibit the legitimate display of firearms at shows or other public occasions by collectors and others or to prohibit the legitimate transportation of firearms through any jurisdiction, whether in airports or otherwise.
(c) A local ordinance enacted pursuant to this section may not prohibit a legislative security officer who has been issued a concealed weapon permit from carrying a concealed weapon in the state capitol as provided in 45-8-317.
History: En. Sec. 1, Ch. 589, L. 1985; amd. Sec. 11, Ch. 759, L. 1991; amd. Sec. 3, Ch. 384, L. 2011.
And the city will spend thousands of taxpayer dollars trying to defend an obviously illegal law in court. This crap happens all the time; local gummints enact laws that violate state laws just to make a point. When this goes to court, the judge should require the city to pay the legal fees of the plaintiff.
Missoula has been a bastion of leftardism since the mid 1980s at least. University town, attracted second-rate Commies as academics.
Bozeman held out a little longer as the cow college, but with every passing year it slides a bit further.
And all the gradjoooits get government jobs in Helena and spread their poison through the state burrocracy.
Yup sounds like Missoula has an infestation of liberal vermin. Time to put a few more conservatives forward and push them out.
Some enterprising attorney should challenge the new ordinance and run it up the ladder of jurisprudence.
Question that I always have had. Why in the hell do those a-holes run screaming from CA because of too much taxes and regulation and then saddle that yoke around good people in right thinking states??? I liken it to Russification that was done behind the iron curtain when it fell.
Its easy to spot if your fair state is starting to get the California rash.
Coffee goes from .50 cents to 5.00 dollars.
In medical terms its called Hipster sign.
Kinda like when you rupture your spleen and get pain in your left shoulder. Kehr's sign.
Its science.
Still waiting on actual and factual examples how Missoula has been ruined.
Not buying the fancy coffee bit eh?
There is just no pleasing you.
I see you are trying extra hard to fit in here by being a dick.
Sorry to have offended you pal!
I promise I won't make any more Missoula jokes. Sheesh.
As I've said for more than half of my lifetime "F*ck the Griz".
local governments can't pass their own gun control laws in Florida. State law over rides all local ordinances. If locals try to get around it, the specific persons are libel in court.
Stupid laws deserve to be broken.
Stupid city council members deserve to get visits in the parking lot and introduced to sections of scrap chainsaw chains.
As the leftist say, "Think Globally, Act Locally".
Power hungry control people should be charged when they pass illegal law, just like folks that break the law.
Montana Code Annotated 2015
Clickable Image
45-8-351. Restriction on local government regulation of firearms. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit may not prohibit, register, tax, license, or regulate the purchase, sale or other transfer (including delay in purchase, sale, or other transfer), ownership, possession, transportation, use, or unconcealed carrying of any weapon, including a rifle, shotgun, handgun, or concealed handgun.
(2) (a) For public safety purposes, a city or town may regulate the discharge of rifles, shotguns, and handguns. A county, city, town, consolidated local government, or other local government unit has power to prevent and suppress the carrying of concealed or unconcealed weapons to a public assembly, publicly owned building, park under its jurisdiction, or school, and the possession of firearms by convicted felons, adjudicated mental incompetents, illegal aliens, and minors.
(b) Nothing contained in this section allows any government to prohibit the legitimate display of firearms at shows or other public occasions by collectors and others or to prohibit the legitimate transportation of firearms through any jurisdiction, whether in airports or otherwise.
(c) A local ordinance enacted pursuant to this section may not prohibit a legislative security officer who has been issued a concealed weapon permit from carrying a concealed weapon in the state capitol as provided in 45-8-317.
History: En. Sec. 1, Ch. 589, L. 1985; amd. Sec. 11, Ch. 759, L. 1991; amd. Sec. 3, Ch. 384, L. 2011.
Looks like those scumbags passed an ordinance in violation of a preemption law that prohibits it.
Love all the comments about Missoula from those that do not live in Missoula. It is very easy to live in Missoula and completely avoid the liberal and hippie crap.
Chief of Police was on the evening news and said the ordnance would only be enforced when a complaint is filed. Not worried.
So even the chief is willing to violate State Law ?
How special.
City boundaries are also important for gun owners to keep in mind. If you're a gun owner within city limits and want to sell your gun, you'd have to get a background check on your potential buyer. However, outside of city boundaries, but within the county, the ordinance would no longer apply.
How is the ordnance worded? Can 2 city residents hop in a car, drive just outside of town and complete the sale? Or, does their place of residence follow them wherever they go?
Missoula needs to get a new attorney that can read law, or the city leaders need to listen to their city attorney, one of the two.
Is there no penalty for violating state law?
Governing bodies and members should be penalized for passing this sort of unlawful law, be it state, federal or unconstitutional.
That ordnance is now gone.
amazing that city council and city attorney in a college town can't plain english. grandstanding!
The only way it stops is for a counter lawsuit.
Just having an AG tell them to get in line with state law does not put the clamps to their continued illegality.
The only way it stops is for a counter lawsuit.
Just having an AG tell them to get in line with state law does not put the clamps to their continued illegality.
Huh?
Fox’s new legal opinion has the force of law unless overruled by a district court or the Montana Supreme Court.
That ........ Ordnance ........ Is ........ Now ...........Gone.
From January 26th news release: MISSOULA — Citing state law, Attorney General Tim Fox said Thursday Missoula's background check ordinance isn't legal.
"Plainly interpreted, the Montana Legislature has prohibited all forms of local government from exercising any regulatory power over the purchase, sale or transfer or firearms," he wrote.
Missoula City Attorney Jim Nugent said Fox's ruling came as no surprise.
“I don’t think anyone expected anything different,” Nugent said. “Persuant to the attorney general opinion, it [the ordinance] can’t be enforced.”
State law previously allowed cities to make their own laws around firearms sales, Fox continued, but a 1985 bill repealed that section of the Montana Code Annotated and replaced it with new language.
It placed a "general prohibition on ordinances from any local government aimed at sales and transfers from firearms."
End of news article.
Protecting our Second Amendment Rights is, has been and will be a life long task!
Be careful, VERY careful who you vote for!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy