The Attack on Pearl Harbor.

December 7 1941.

I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.

Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"?

When they attacked they screwed up bad.

They thought the carrier group would be there also. We were lucky they weren’t.

They thought we'd crumble from the attack, but they waked a sleeping giant, who left absolutely no doubt as to what the income would be. Mess with the eagle, and you'll get the talons.

Originally Posted by wabigoon

December 7 1941.

I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.

Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"?

I am very certain that was not the thinking of the Japanese. Yamamoto was well aware of all the capabilities of the aircraft carrier. And he very good intelligence that four flattops were anchored in Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for us, his intel was just a few days out of date.

Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air.

Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack?

Wasn't it Yamamoto who said " I fear we have wakened a sleeping elephant." ?

Lol

Thank God it was a time when Men were Men.

My grandfather was there at the time, at the Schofield barracks. (And at Guadalcanal and the Philippines later.)
Its' the one time I always know exactly where my grandfather was 70 odd years ago to the hour. He was a tough character, from country Georgia. He drank a lot, was a violent man when drunk and he didn't like black people much. He hated the Japanese. He kept an army sheath knife on his beside table. He liked me though. He taught me how to throw a hand grenade into a bunker, and how to stop a tank with a bazooka. I was about nine years old at the time.

He got a Bronze Star on Guadalcanal but I never knew until after he died, so I never asked him what it was for. He had a scar on his forearm from a bullet entry. He worked in logging after the war and he always wanted to take me fishing. He was not a good man. Once when the Mormons knocked on the door and asked if he was saved, he told them" I've been doing the devils work for so long, I can't leave the poor bastard alone now." But he was my grandfather .

I always think of him on this day.

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I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve.

Admiral Yamamoto on Pearl Harbor.

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When this war is over, the Japanese language will only be spoken in hell.

Admiral "Bull" Halsey on Pearl Harbor.

It seems that both men knew what the future held in store.
As to wether the Navy knew ahead of time, I can't say.
FDR and his Chiefs of Staff figured an attack was coming, but no one ever thought it'd be Hawaii.
7mm

They knew it was comming...and they let it happen....fu*k the war monger FDR.......... Kermit Gosnell > why were u borrn to late to walk him to the bus stop....

Originally Posted by wabigoon

December 7 1941.

I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.

Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"?

No, the Japs thought the carriers would be at Pearl. They thought if they could sink the Pacific Fleet Carriers, that the US would have lottle choice but to sue for peace and negotiate to get the oil flowing back to Japan. Unbenownst to them, the carriers had been sent out on missions - The Lexington to Midway to delivery dive bombers, The Saratoga to San Diego and The Enterprise to Wake Island to deliver a Marine attack plane squadron. Enterprise was scheduled to return to Pearl on December 7th and received radio transmissions that Pearl was under attack. She berthed on December 8, and was refueled and rearmed in 7 hours before putting back out to sea to guard the Islands from further attacks from the West.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by wabigoon

December 7 1941.

I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.

Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"?

I am very certain that was not the thinking of the Japanese. Yamamoto was well aware of all the capabilities of the aircraft carrier. And he very good intelligence that four flattops were anchored in Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for us, his intel was just a few days out of date.

Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air.

Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack?

Yes, it was coincidence - pure luck. Enterprise was at Wake Island, but was scheduled to return on December 7th. The US only had three carriers in the Pacific because Germany was viewed as a bigger threat. Lexington and Saratoga had been sent to Midway and San Diego, respectively.

Saratoga steamed back at 110%+.......record still stands I think.

And by the end of the war we sank every single ship that took part in the attack.

PC be damned........

Good thing Hillary wasn't secretary of state ; the Japs would have been reading her e-mails.

Admiral Yamamoto had been in the US for some time in the '30s, and knew of the industrial capability. He knew that it must be a short war or Japan would lose.

The US Brass thought enough of him and his abilities to pay him a visit while he was on his way to Rabaul. He was not taken lightly.

98-year-old retired Navy chief warrant officer, Roy “Swede” Boreen, was on the USS Oklahoma On Dec 7 1941. He lost 141 of his shipmates. We interviewed him last week.

I was born in 1950, 9 years after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Growing up, December 7 was a very big day as far a lot of folks were concerned. In the 50's and well into the 60's, there was still a lot of animosity towards the Japs. I knew people who refused to buy anything if it was Japanese made.......something that eventually became almost impossible to do. A high school classmate of my fathers was killed at Pearl Harbor.

I can remember the older folks still talking about where they were, and what they were doing when they got the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor. It was much like we talk about 9-11, only they seemed to place more importance on it than we do 9-11. Of course, WW2 was a much larger war and took many more lives than what we experienced following 9-11.

It must have been a horrible dose of reality to those who woke on that fateful day to hear about what happened at Pearl. To the best of my knowledge, our family didn't have any direct connections to anyone living there at the time. The only thing I remember hearing about was someone who ended up with some bullet holes in their front door on their house. Lest we ever forget.

I bet we killed every pilot that attacked Pearl Harbor!

I was born in 1958. Mom and Dad were still re-living Pearl Harbor every year. Mom and Dad were living about 5 miles apart in those days. At one point, they even attended the same school, but they didn't meet until 1956. Dad was living on the family farm. Mom lived in town.

If I remember correctly, Mom's family had come home from church. They were going to eat Sunday Dinner out, but when the news hit, they stayed home and stayed glued to the radio. Her father was running a plant that had been deemed necessary for the war. He'd get a deferment. However, all the cousins and such were going to volunteer or get drafted.

Dad was out on the farm sawing wood with the tenant farm manager. Things were tense for the German-Americans. Grandpa had moved the family out to the farm in 1939, but managed to pick a locale that was a hotbed for Bund activity. My dad had been born here, but his oldest brother had been born in Germany. Germans were being thrown into the camps. Grandpa was a fairly fiercely outspoken anti-Fascist, but mostly that just caused tensions with the pro-Nazi neighbors. There had been fights in school, fights at the saloon. Everyone was dealing crap to the Krauts.

Dad was 15. He knew if this crap lasted long enough, he was going to be going in. His two other brothers were draftable. Being of German heritage, they might have been excluded. However, a war in the Pacific meant everybody was going in for sure. Since he was 10, he'd had his own Zenith floor model radio. He'd stayed up nights listening to the broadcasts out of London and Berlin. He was scared to death of what was coming.

Mom is still hateful of Japanese. Dad was far more circumspect. Neither forgave the Japs for the treachery of the sneak attack. However, my Dad didn't go on to hate Japanese. He was on a boat headed for the Invasion of Japan when the bombs were dropped. He was just happy to go home at the end of it. Mom had cousins that fought in The Bulge and at Anzio. They all came back weird, but still in one piece.

It certainly changed the lives of millions of Americans. Even ones “not” killed in battle, were forever changed! Though, it brought us together as Americans, and made us a much stronger nation......however, it was very temporary! memtb

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by wabigoon

December 7 1941.

I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.

Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"?

I am very certain that was not the thinking of the Japanese. Yamamoto was well aware of all the capabilities of the aircraft carrier. And he very good intelligence that four flattops were anchored in Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for us, his intel was just a few days out of date.

Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air.

Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack?

Wasn't the British attack of the Italian naval fleet which several ships were sunk by Royal Naval aircraft that gave the Japs the idea to attack Pearl Harbor.

It was a brilliantly executed attack which failed on the strategic level.

Originally Posted by hanco

I bet we killed every pilot that attacked Pearl Harbor!

No. I met Mitsuo Fuchida in the early to mid 1950's.

Originally Posted by doctor_Encore

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by wabigoon

December 7 1941.

I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.

Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"?

I am very certain that was not the thinking of the Japanese. Yamamoto was well aware of all the capabilities of the aircraft carrier. And he very good intelligence that four flattops were anchored in Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for us, his intel was just a few days out of date.

Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air.

Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack?

Wasn't the British attack of the Italian naval fleet which several ships were sunk by Royal Naval aircraft that gave the Japs the idea to attack Pearl Harbor.

I have read-- somewhere-- that when Yamamoto was in the US at one time he viewed a Navy exercise in Hawaii that gave him the idea and nidus of a plan for the attack.

Quote

Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air.

Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack?

The answer to Q1: Quite a bit, but not enough. Everyone from POTUS on down knew there would be an attack, but they did not know where. Pearl Harbor was considered an unlikely spot, because it was defended so well. An opposing view, that Pearl was ripe for attack, was not held by the guys calling the shots. The assumption was the initial attack would be at one of our lesser possessions in the Pacific, or a low-impact attack on the mainland's west coast. Another option was the Panama Canal.

In the days leading up to Dec 7, we knew a declaration of war was coming. The Japanese embassy was burning its codebooks. We figured we'd have an official declaration. We nearly did, but they fouled up the decoding and didn't get it to us in time.

Q2: The carriers

Let me quote from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theory

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None of the three U.S. Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were in Pearl Harbor when the attack came. This has been alleged by some to be evidence of advance knowledge of the attack by those in charge of their disposition; the carriers were supposedly away so as to save them (the most valuable ships) from attack.

In fact, the two carriers then operating with the Pacific Fleet, Enterprise and Lexington, were on missions to deliver fighters to Wake and Midway Islands, which were intended in part to protect the route used by planes (including B-17s) bound for the Philippines. (The third, Saratoga, was in routine refit in Puget Sound, at the Bremerton shipyard.) At the time of the attack, Enterprise was about 200 mi (170 nmi; 320 km) west of Pearl Harbor, heading back. In fact, Enterprise had been scheduled to be back on December 6, but was delayed by weather. A new arrival estimate put her arrival at Pearl around 07:00, almost an hour before the attack, but she was also unable to make that schedule.

Furthermore, at the time, aircraft carriers were classified as fleet scouting elements, and hence relatively expendable.[124] They were not capital ships. The most important vessels in naval planning even as late as Pearl Harbor were battleships (per the Mahan doctrine followed by both the U.S. and Japanese navies at the time).[125] Carriers became the Navy's most important ships only following the attack.

At the time, naval establishments all over the world regarded battleships, not carriers, as the most powerful and significant elements of naval power. Had the U.S. wanted to preserve its key assets from attack, it would almost certainly have focused on protecting battleships. It was the attack on Pearl Harbor itself that first helped vault the carrier ahead of the battleship in importance. The attack demonstrated the carrier's unprecedented ability to attack the enemy at a great distance, with great force and surprise. The U.S. would turn this ability against Japan. Elimination of battleships from the Pacific Fleet forced the Americans to rely on carriers for offensive operations.

This matches what I've read pretty well.

As it turned out, Pearl Harbor was a blessing in disguise in a lot of ways. Yes, we lost a lot of good men, but it was just this sort of punch in the nose that we needed to wake up and start fighting. The war lasted until 1945, but Japan was pretty much on the defensive in 6 months and well-nigh beaten in a year. If they'd been smart about it, they would have sued for peace long before 1945, but as they say: "Play stupid games; win stupid prizes."

My father was born Dec 10, 1941. His Dad was drafted shortly thereafter.

I had a neighbor, Bert Miller, that was a submariner out of Pearl Harbor. He told me the Japanese didn't touch the subs, the fuel supply, shops, and other things that bit them in the azz through the war. The Japanese went after the capital ships, aircraft, and airfields. Bert told me "auxiliaries" (reservists) kept us fighting until a regular force could be built up. Bert had a lot of respect for the reservists.

My Dad was there, 19 year old Navy airdale.

Passed away two years ago.

I've known quite a few WWII vets from the Pacific theater over the years but none who were at Pearl Harbor on that day. Years ago my dad worked with a guy who was there but he wasn't injured as he wasn't that close to the attack site. Growing up in the '50's & 60's a lot of my father's generation wouldn't have anything to do with anything Japanese. Even my dad who was in the European theater didn't want anything to do with anything Japanese. One of my uncle's was a young marine in the Pacific in 1944-45 and never even rode in a Japanese vehicle let alone own one until 2007, about 3 years before he passed. He didn't drive anymore and I had to give him a ride home in my Toyota Tacoma which he reluctantly agreed to. I felt funny as I knew he wasn't keen on riding in it but there was no other ride available. IIRC that was the first time he had ever been in a Japanese vehicle and he was in his early 80's at the time.

Originally Posted by g5m

Originally Posted by hanco

I bet we killed every pilot that attacked Pearl Harbor!

No. I met Mitsuo Fuchida in the early to mid 1950's.

Beat me to it. This guy is the main reason for widely accepted view by the Americans of the Japanese version of things. A lot of what he said was later disputed by other Japanese but since he was at Pearl and I believe at Midway, survived the war ,and spoke English his accounts met with little contradiction as there were so few to readily counter what he said. He was the advisor on the movie Tora Tora Tora and it seems his role and importance in the war grew as time went by thanks to ebellshing celebrity.

Originally Posted by 12344mag

Thank God it was a time when Men were Men.

Sure makes me wonder (God forbid) what would happen if a similar event were to happen today.

Centershot,

A similar event did occur recently (09/11). I'll leave the response up to you!

Jim

There was a clerk on evening shift at the post office where I worked. He woud case mail and every now and then he'd say fu@k out loud like a nervous tic. He was at Scholfield Barracks that morning and was pinned under debris for over a day. He told me once he was "fixed up" they sent him to New Guinea to fight. He seemed to like me. He looked at me one night and said "anyone that would drink Dr Pepper would eat schittt". I had to laugh. I really liked the guy.