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Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
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I bet we killed every pilot that attacked Pearl Harbor!
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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I was born in 1958. Mom and Dad were still re-living Pearl Harbor every year. Mom and Dad were living about 5 miles apart in those days. At one point, they even attended the same school, but they didn't meet until 1956. Dad was living on the family farm. Mom lived in town.
If I remember correctly, Mom's family had come home from church. They were going to eat Sunday Dinner out, but when the news hit, they stayed home and stayed glued to the radio. Her father was running a plant that had been deemed necessary for the war. He'd get a deferment. However, all the cousins and such were going to volunteer or get drafted.
Dad was out on the farm sawing wood with the tenant farm manager. Things were tense for the German-Americans. Grandpa had moved the family out to the farm in 1939, but managed to pick a locale that was a hotbed for Bund activity. My dad had been born here, but his oldest brother had been born in Germany. Germans were being thrown into the camps. Grandpa was a fairly fiercely outspoken anti-Fascist, but mostly that just caused tensions with the pro-Nazi neighbors. There had been fights in school, fights at the saloon. Everyone was dealing crap to the Krauts.
Dad was 15. He knew if this crap lasted long enough, he was going to be going in. His two other brothers were draftable. Being of German heritage, they might have been excluded. However, a war in the Pacific meant everybody was going in for sure. Since he was 10, he'd had his own Zenith floor model radio. He'd stayed up nights listening to the broadcasts out of London and Berlin. He was scared to death of what was coming.
Mom is still hateful of Japanese. Dad was far more circumspect. Neither forgave the Japs for the treachery of the sneak attack. However, my Dad didn't go on to hate Japanese. He was on a boat headed for the Invasion of Japan when the bombs were dropped. He was just happy to go home at the end of it. Mom had cousins that fought in The Bulge and at Anzio. They all came back weird, but still in one piece.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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It certainly changed the lives of millions of Americans. Even ones “not” killed in battle, were forever changed! Though, it brought us together as Americans, and made us a much stronger nation......however, it was very temporary! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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December 7 1941.
I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.
Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"? I am very certain that was not the thinking of the Japanese. Yamamoto was well aware of all the capabilities of the aircraft carrier. And he very good intelligence that four flattops were anchored in Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for us, his intel was just a few days out of date. Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air. Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack? Wasn't the British attack of the Italian naval fleet which several ships were sunk by Royal Naval aircraft that gave the Japs the idea to attack Pearl Harbor.
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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It was a brilliantly executed attack which failed on the strategic level.
There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I bet we killed every pilot that attacked Pearl Harbor! No. I met Mitsuo Fuchida in the early to mid 1950's.
Retired cat herder.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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December 7 1941.
I know just the basics, the Japanese thought battle ships were all important. History shows airplanes, and the carrier ships turned out be of more importance.
Any thoughts on the day "That Lives in Infamy"? I am very certain that was not the thinking of the Japanese. Yamamoto was well aware of all the capabilities of the aircraft carrier. And he very good intelligence that four flattops were anchored in Pearl Harbor. Fortunately for us, his intel was just a few days out of date. Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air. Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack? Wasn't the British attack of the Italian naval fleet which several ships were sunk by Royal Naval aircraft that gave the Japs the idea to attack Pearl Harbor. I have read-- somewhere-- that when Yamamoto was in the US at one time he viewed a Navy exercise in Hawaii that gave him the idea and nidus of a plan for the attack.
Retired cat herder.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Which brings us to the debate over how much did our Navy know about the coming strike on Pearl? Considering the battleship Admirals swore an airplane was no threat to a battleship. And the carrier Admirals swore the battleship was obsolete, as it could not withstand an attack from the air.
Was it just a coincidence that the carriers sailed safely out into the open sea just before the attack?
The answer to Q1: Quite a bit, but not enough. Everyone from POTUS on down knew there would be an attack, but they did not know where. Pearl Harbor was considered an unlikely spot, because it was defended so well. An opposing view, that Pearl was ripe for attack, was not held by the guys calling the shots. The assumption was the initial attack would be at one of our lesser possessions in the Pacific, or a low-impact attack on the mainland's west coast. Another option was the Panama Canal. In the days leading up to Dec 7, we knew a declaration of war was coming. The Japanese embassy was burning its codebooks. We figured we'd have an official declaration. We nearly did, but they fouled up the decoding and didn't get it to us in time. Q2: The carriers Let me quote from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theoryNone of the three U.S. Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were in Pearl Harbor when the attack came. This has been alleged by some to be evidence of advance knowledge of the attack by those in charge of their disposition; the carriers were supposedly away so as to save them (the most valuable ships) from attack.
In fact, the two carriers then operating with the Pacific Fleet, Enterprise and Lexington, were on missions to deliver fighters to Wake and Midway Islands, which were intended in part to protect the route used by planes (including B-17s) bound for the Philippines. (The third, Saratoga, was in routine refit in Puget Sound, at the Bremerton shipyard.) At the time of the attack, Enterprise was about 200 mi (170 nmi; 320 km) west of Pearl Harbor, heading back. In fact, Enterprise had been scheduled to be back on December 6, but was delayed by weather. A new arrival estimate put her arrival at Pearl around 07:00, almost an hour before the attack, but she was also unable to make that schedule.
Furthermore, at the time, aircraft carriers were classified as fleet scouting elements, and hence relatively expendable.[124] They were not capital ships. The most important vessels in naval planning even as late as Pearl Harbor were battleships (per the Mahan doctrine followed by both the U.S. and Japanese navies at the time).[125] Carriers became the Navy's most important ships only following the attack.
At the time, naval establishments all over the world regarded battleships, not carriers, as the most powerful and significant elements of naval power. Had the U.S. wanted to preserve its key assets from attack, it would almost certainly have focused on protecting battleships. It was the attack on Pearl Harbor itself that first helped vault the carrier ahead of the battleship in importance. The attack demonstrated the carrier's unprecedented ability to attack the enemy at a great distance, with great force and surprise. The U.S. would turn this ability against Japan. Elimination of battleships from the Pacific Fleet forced the Americans to rely on carriers for offensive operations. This matches what I've read pretty well. As it turned out, Pearl Harbor was a blessing in disguise in a lot of ways. Yes, we lost a lot of good men, but it was just this sort of punch in the nose that we needed to wake up and start fighting. The war lasted until 1945, but Japan was pretty much on the defensive in 6 months and well-nigh beaten in a year. If they'd been smart about it, they would have sued for peace long before 1945, but as they say: "Play stupid games; win stupid prizes."
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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My father was born Dec 10, 1941. His Dad was drafted shortly thereafter.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I had a neighbor, Bert Miller, that was a submariner out of Pearl Harbor. He told me the Japanese didn't touch the subs, the fuel supply, shops, and other things that bit them in the azz through the war. The Japanese went after the capital ships, aircraft, and airfields. Bert told me "auxiliaries" (reservists) kept us fighting until a regular force could be built up. Bert had a lot of respect for the reservists.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Joined: Oct 2004
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My Dad was there, 19 year old Navy airdale.
Passed away two years ago.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've known quite a few WWII vets from the Pacific theater over the years but none who were at Pearl Harbor on that day. Years ago my dad worked with a guy who was there but he wasn't injured as he wasn't that close to the attack site. Growing up in the '50's & 60's a lot of my father's generation wouldn't have anything to do with anything Japanese. Even my dad who was in the European theater didn't want anything to do with anything Japanese. One of my uncle's was a young marine in the Pacific in 1944-45 and never even rode in a Japanese vehicle let alone own one until 2007, about 3 years before he passed. He didn't drive anymore and I had to give him a ride home in my Toyota Tacoma which he reluctantly agreed to. I felt funny as I knew he wasn't keen on riding in it but there was no other ride available. IIRC that was the first time he had ever been in a Japanese vehicle and he was in his early 80's at the time.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I bet we killed every pilot that attacked Pearl Harbor! No. I met Mitsuo Fuchida in the early to mid 1950's. Beat me to it. This guy is the main reason for widely accepted view by the Americans of the Japanese version of things. A lot of what he said was later disputed by other Japanese but since he was at Pearl and I believe at Midway, survived the war ,and spoke English his accounts met with little contradiction as there were so few to readily counter what he said. He was the advisor on the movie Tora Tora Tora and it seems his role and importance in the war grew as time went by thanks to ebellshing celebrity.
When a country is well governed, poverty and a mean condition are something to be ashamed of. When a country is ill governed, riches and honors are something to be ashamed of
. Confucius
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Thank God it was a time when Men were Men. Sure makes me wonder (God forbid) what would happen if a similar event were to happen today.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Campfire Member
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Centershot,
A similar event did occur recently (09/11). I'll leave the response up to you!
Jim
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There was a clerk on evening shift at the post office where I worked. He woud case mail and every now and then he'd say fu  k out loud like a nervous tic. He was at Scholfield Barracks that morning and was pinned under debris for over a day. He told me once he was "fixed up" they sent him to New Guinea to fight. He seemed to like me. He looked at me one night and said "anyone that would drink Dr Pepper would eat schittt". I had to laugh. I really liked the guy.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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