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Posted By: hatari Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Article on Sweden. It is both negative and positive on the Swedish approach. In Sweden's defense of its approach is that half of their deaths have been through nursing homes. Several nursing homes were infected early on. As their head epidemiology points out in another interview, nursing homes are impossible to lock down. Caregivers must come and go along with support staff. Sweden acknowledges nursing homes have been a problem.

Sweden also is counting on herd immunity concept that will see them in a superior position after the first wave. Time will tell. The fact that an advanced country has taken a different approach will give us two real models to learn from for the future.
Quote

Business
Sweden stayed open during the coronavirus pandemic: Is it a model for the future?
GUY DAVIES and BRUNO ROEBER
Good Morning AmericaMay 27, 2020, 5:04 AM EDT

Sweden stayed open during the coronavirus pandemic: Is it a model for the future?
Sweden has pursued its own distinct path when it comes to tackling the coronavirus pandemic. By choosing to stay open rather than instituting a policy of lockdown, Sweden's policies have drawn both international praise and criticism.

While Sweden's decision early in the pandemic to allow bars, restaurants, schools and shops to remain open was almost unthinkable for the rest of the world under lockdown, the Scandinavian country is now being looked at by some as a model for the future.


Recently, Republican Sen. Rand Paul said the US must “keep an open mind” when it comes to the Swedish approach, as governments across Europe and the US chart a way out of lockdown.

Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell, the architect behind Sweden’s policy, has repeatedly doubled down on the merits of his country's approach. Sweden, he said, is playing the long game despite the country having a much higher death rate than its neighbors.

“In the autumn, there will be a second wave. Sweden will have a high level of immunity and the number of cases will probably be quite low,” Tegnell told The Financial Times earlier this month. “But [neighboring] Finland will have a very low level of immunity. Will Finland have to go into a complete lockdown again?”

PHOTO: Customers sit and eat at a restaurants terrace in Stockholm, Sweden, May 22, 2020. (Loulou D'Aki/Bloomberg via Getty Images)
PHOTO: Customers sit and eat at a restaurants terrace in Stockholm, Sweden, May 22, 2020. (Loulou D'Aki/Bloomberg via Getty Images)
Only time will test Tegnell’s hypothesis, but as countries around the world, and particularly the U.S., ponder what the coming months will look like, the case of Sweden is a fascinating case study. According to one sociologist, the country’s alternative path is a chance to “learn more” where so many others have shut down to stop the spread of COVID-19.


Tegnell’s approach to the pandemic has proved highly controversial. Social distancing was encouraged by government officials but for the most part Swedes have continued on with their lives. They were still able to send their children to school and visit bars and restaurants, although gatherings of over 50 people remain banned.

Sweden, with a population of 10 million, has so far had 4,029 officially recorded COVID-19 deaths, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. But the country has a far higher rate of infections and deaths than its Scandinavian counterparts.

According to the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control, Sweden has an estimated 328.6 cases and 39.3 deaths per 100,000 of the population. Norway has 156.4 cases and just 4.4 deaths respectively. Denmark and Finland have similarly low figures. Those same statistics still indicate that Sweden has a lower number of deaths per capita than Italy, Spain and the U.K., all countries that have enacted stringent lockdowns.

This is a “stark difference” to the rest of Scandinavia, according to Stefan Hanson, a Swedish infectious disease expert and signatory to a letter from top scientists criticizing the health authorities' response.

"When we compare the other Nordic countries in terms of mortality, it is clear that we are having roughly 500 deaths per week, and in Norway they had seven deaths last week,” Hanson told ABC News. “If we see the mortality per million, we are five times higher than all the other Nordic countries, taken the number of inhabitants into consideration."

“There is no doubt that this strategy is causing a lot of unnecessary deaths,” he added.

Tegnell and other government officials have repeatedly dismissed the idea of going into lockdown and reversing Sweden’s course.

The government has not said it explicitly, but the strategy of staying open has the de facto goal of “herd immunity” – the view that if enough people have become immune to the virus, the spread will slow, Hanson said. In the U.S., Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has dismissed the idea, saying the first step is to develop a vaccine.

Herd immunity would require between 60% and 80% of the population becoming immune to the virus. But new data shows that only 7.3% of the inhabitants of Stockholm, Sweden’s capital, has COVID-19 antibodies, meaning the pursuit of immunity, given the likely increase in deaths, is a “dangerous approach,” Hanson said.

"Even those [countries] who have had very severe epidemics, lots of deaths, lockdowns ... they have had very low immunity levels in the population," he said.

MORE: Italy and Spain begin to reopen after coronavirus lockdown, rest of Europe to follow suit

PHOTO:State Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell of the Swedish Public Health Agency attends a press conference to update on the COVID-19 coronavirus situation on May 25, 2020 in Solna near Stockholm, Sweden. (Jonathan Nackstrand/AFP via Getty Images)


Yet Sweden, like the U.S. and the rest of Europe under lockdown, has suffered from the virus entering nursing homes, or care home facilities. Residents of these homes account for almost half of coronavirus deaths in Sweden. But in mainland Europe, the percentage of nursing home deaths is remarkably high, according to data compiled by the European Center of Disease Control. That problem is not unique to Sweden’s approach.

With warnings that Europe will experience a second wave of infections this fall, there is arguably a long-term rationale behind the Swedish model: that over time infection and death rates will equalize between comparable countries that locked down and those that did not.

‘Wealth is health’

In the U.S., Fauci has been adamant that the development of a vaccine, rather than "herd immunity," is crucial in defeating the virus. But with a minimum of 12-18 months before a vaccine could be ready, if at all, and a further period allocated for the distribution of the vaccine, it’s clear that the coronavirus is going to be a part of our daily lives for a long time, according to Tegnell.

In the rest of Europe, the economic impact of the lockdown is already being felt, although the true extent is being masked by generous government loan schemes. In the U.K., the government have pledged to pay 80% of furloughed workers' wages until October, but that hasn’t stopped the Bank of England from forecasting the worst recession in three centuries. The European Commission has warned that the continent’s economy will contract by 7.4% this year.

A number of economists have supported the government’s policy. Lotta Stern, a professor of sociology at Stockholm University who recently co-authored an article suggesting that Sweden’s approach would soon be the world’s, told ABC News that the country has taken “the least bad option” and the issue is more complex than a simple trade of health and economics.

MORE: How dying and mourning have changed around the world amid coronavirus pandemic

“That framing is entirely wrong,” she said. “Wealth is health. Whichever way you count, freedom and flexibility usually perform better than central command.”

Sweden’s economy has too suffered, she said. But by keeping schools, bars and restaurants open, the country has not seen the same rise in unemployment figures elsewhere in the world.

“As surreal as things are here in Sweden, it seems so much more surreal in the U.S. and U.K.,” she said. “Swedes don’t realize how oppressive other countries have become. What is their exit strategy? The more we learn about the disease the more it seems that they have overreacted.”

Ordinary Swedes in general have been very supportive of the government. Fredrick Kahånsson, a risk management consultant at a construction company in Stockholm, told ABC News that despite how the country’s policy is perceived, there is “no right or wrong,” and it must be up for ordinary people to decide how to live their lives.

“I do support Sweden’s general approach because what you see in the other countries when they open up it starts spreading again,” he said. “So if you can’t really terminate it with a complete lockdown this is just going to be a prolonged process.”

A viable model?

Sweden benefits from a number of favorable conditions when it comes to encouraging individuals to take responsibility for how they interpret social distancing. The country has a strong public health and education systems as well as near unparalleled levels of public trust in the government.

Yet for Hanson, the stand-off approach has proved too costly and he argued the country is “definitely not a model” for the international community to emulate in the long run.

MORE:Up to 59 million jobs at risk in Europe

"First of all you have to focus on the disease, to get that under control," he said. "The control is in the other Nordic countries. We don't have to have the lockdown, we just have to be a little bit stricter with the rules."

The economic consequences of lockdown will be felt with a greater intensity than the coronavirus pandemic itself, according to Stern.

“Other countries will have to let up on lockdowns, yes,” she said. “They panicked and hoped to buy enough time. But I think they will increasingly see that their medicine was worse than the disease.”


Early indications suggest that Sweden’s GDP fell by just 0.3% in the first quarter of 2020 compared to 3.8% in the rest of the Eurozone, the European economic bloc which holds the Euro as currency, according to The Financial Times. It is still too early to say whether Sweden will reap the economic benefits of "lockdown-lite" in the coming years.

But with a vaccine still at the very least a year away, there may be a matter of inevitability in how countries like the U.S. and U.K., so badly hit by the pandemic, chart their future.

'We are going to have second wave and third wave -- I think the rest of the world is going to have to do more of the Swedish approach because there is not going to be a world to save if we shut everything down again, and again, and again,” Kahånsson said.
Posted By: JCMCUBIC Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Quote

.........
Early indications suggest that Sweden’s GDP fell by just 0.3% in the first quarter of 2020 compared to 3.8% in the rest of the Eurozone, the European economic bloc which holds the Euro as currency, according to The Financial Times. It is still too early to say whether Sweden will reap the economic benefits of "lockdown-lite" in the coming years.
........



Good to see a number given related to economic impact of not going on lock-down (or as heavy of a lockdown).

Good article and I'm interested to see how this turns out. ~5x deaths to save ~3.5% GDP and gain ~7.3% of the population as immune (hopefully) is where it's at now.....very rough figures and not the whole story. No one will know until after the fact.

In the end, the most important point for me is that individuals could choose their level of lockdown.

Thanks for posting hatari.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Anybody that thinks this whole virus bullshit was not just a follow on to the Russia, Ukraine hoaxes, is either an idiot or a democrat traitor (or both)
Posted By: hatari Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
I'm interested in following because I understand their rationale. They are willing to take more casualties upfront with the idea that they end the epidemic in their country sooner and they have many less casualties on the back end. More or less they expect a tough April - July then by September they expect to break the back of the epidemic their and the numbers plummet permanently starting in the Fall.

While the rest of the world waits for months/years for a vaccine that may or may not come, they are done with it except for a few sporadic cases here and there that they can manage. Meanwhile, the rest of the world deals with a fire they can't put out.

Will their way work out? Will it only work in a country of highly educated homogeneous people vs. one with low education or one with herds of low/no education immigrants? We'll see. I'm going to watch.
Posted By: Huntz Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Good Morning America is my source for factual news crazy
Posted By: oldtrapper Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Thanks Doc, nice of the Swedes to run the experiment for the world.
Posted By: PaulBarnard Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Anybody that thinks this whole virus bullshit was not just a follow on to the Russia, Ukraine hoaxes, is either an idiot or a democrat traitor (or both)


I assume you mean the politicization of our our response. Of course the democrats will try to use it to take down Trump.

Sweden's deaths per million are about 25% higher than ours.
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Anybody that thinks this whole virus bullshit was not just a follow on to the Russia, Ukraine hoaxes, is either an idiot or a democrat traitor (or both)


I assume you mean the politicization of our our response. Of course the democrats will try to use it to take down Trump.

Sweden's deaths per million are about 25% higher than ours.


Maybe,,,

Posted By: hanco Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
I bet China already has a vaccine. They are waiting for the right time to sell it to us.
Posted By: dassa Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by PaulBarnard
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Anybody that thinks this whole virus bullshit was not just a follow on to the Russia, Ukraine hoaxes, is either an idiot or a democrat traitor (or both)


I assume you mean the politicization of our our response. Of course the democrats will try to use it to take down Trump.

Sweden's deaths per million are about 25% higher than ours.

Do you have any numbers on the incidental deaths, (suicide, drug od, etc.) related to the lockdown that we can compare?
Posted By: JCMCUBIC Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by hatari
I'm interested in following because I understand their rationale. They are willing to take more casualties upfront with the idea that they end the epidemic in their country sooner and they have many less casualties on the back end. More or less they expect a tough April - July then by September they expect to break the back of the epidemic their and the numbers plummet permanently starting in the Fall.

While the rest of the world waits for months/years for a vaccine that may or may not come, they are done with it except for a few sporadic cases here and there that they can manage. Meanwhile, the rest of the world deals with a fire they can't put out.

Will their way work out? Will it only work in a country of highly educated homogeneous people vs. one with low education or one with herds of low/no education immigrants? We'll see. I'm going to watch.


Yes, the rationale is clear....the results won't be clear until hindsight is available. To reach the estimated 60-80% of the population becoming immune for "herd immunity" is a whole lotta sickness left to go if they're currently at ~7.3%. They may need to get a lot sicker a lot quicker if they're going to reach herd immunity before a vaccine is available. Also for consideration is mutation of the virus which could throw a real monkey wrench in the works....and how long antibodies after being sick with leave someone immune.

How it plays out economically and socially can raise a lot of eyebrows. I'm not pushing one or the other. Interesting times.
Posted By: hatari Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by Huntz
Good Morning America is my source for factual news crazy



In this case, they quote some good people and they play it straight showing both the positive and criticism. Surprising from them, and refreshing.
Posted By: hatari Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC


Yes, the rationale is clear....the results won't be clear until hindsight is available. To reach the estimated 60-80% of the population becoming immune for "herd immunity" is a whole lotta sickness left to go if they're currently at ~7.3%. They may need to get a lot sicker a lot quicker if they're going to reach herd immunity before a vaccine is available. Also for consideration is mutation of the virus which could throw a real monkey wrench in the works....and how long antibodies after being sick with leave someone immune.

How it plays out economically and socially can raise a lot of eyebrows. I'm not pushing one or the other. Interesting times.



That 7.3% currently may not be accurate. If you want some more info, here's a BBC interview with Swedens Epidemiologist that has a rational answer for all criticism. He gets asks the pointed questions and has good responses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biqq34aUJcQ&t=425s&frags=pl%2Cwn

Apologies for not being able to inbed the video from this computer, but is you don't want to watch the whole thing, watch from minute 4:00 to 7:00
Posted By: djs Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
From Health News: "Why Sweden’s COVID-19 Strategy Can’t Work in the U.S."
see: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-what-happened-in-sweden-and-you-cant-compare-it-to-u-s

From Business Insider: "A new Swedish coronavirus antibody study suggests the herd-immunity strategy isn't working"
see: https://www.businessinsider.com/cor...sweden-not-reaching-herd-immunity-2020-5

The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?

The bigger issue is not just the death rate, but the lingering effects of those who survive. Respiratory and major organ damage results that leave many victims with diminished physical conditions.
Posted By: Stickfight Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
The CDC says the death rate among symptomatic infected is 0.4%, and about 33% of infected never have symptoms at all. This is far lower than the 3.4% death rate the WHO published in March, which was lower than the one they published in February.

There is a trend in these estimates.

How many infected suffer major organ damage?
Posted By: dassa Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Here ya go, Hatari:
Posted By: There_Ya_Go Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by hatari

Quote
"Whichever way you count, freedom and flexibility usually perform better than central command.”


Key phrase right there. Sums up the whole issue, as well as the socialist/capitalist debate. Ironic that such a statement would come from Sweden, a semi-socialist nation.
Posted By: Stickfight Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Sweden, a semi-socialist nation.


Sweden isn’t Socialist, that is a Bernie claim so he could peddle his version of Marxist Democratic Socialism.
Posted By: Tyrone Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by djs
The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?

The bigger issue is not just the death rate, but the lingering effects of those who survive. Respiratory and major organ damage results that leave many victims with diminished physical conditions.
If it's not BS, why does the press do their best to suppress effective treatments?
Posted By: JCMCUBIC Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by hatari
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC


Yes, the rationale is clear....the results won't be clear until hindsight is available. To reach the estimated 60-80% of the population becoming immune for "herd immunity" is a whole lotta sickness left to go if they're currently at ~7.3%. They may need to get a lot sicker a lot quicker if they're going to reach herd immunity before a vaccine is available. Also for consideration is mutation of the virus which could throw a real monkey wrench in the works....and how long antibodies after being sick with leave someone immune.

How it plays out economically and socially can raise a lot of eyebrows. I'm not pushing one or the other. Interesting times.



That 7.3% currently may not be accurate. If you want some more info, here's a BBC interview with Swedens Epidemiologist that has a rational answer for all criticism. He gets asks the pointed questions and has good responses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biqq34aUJcQ&t=425s&frags=pl%2Cwn

Apologies for not being able to inbed the video from this computer, but is you don't want to watch the whole thing, watch from minute 4:00 to 7:00


I only watched from minutes 4 to 8. I agree with what he's saying.....we won't know until later! I'll watch all of it later. Thanks!
Posted By: Pugs Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by djs
The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?.


Nice try sport. Numbers don't lie but people use them to build false arguments all the time.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

US case mortality is 10th in the list of countries and with 5.9% substantially less than most of the others. Deaths/1000 we're #9. We're doing fine in the larger sense especially once we honestly remove the folks who were placed in the un-winnable situation of care facilities and being already in danger from other significant health issues.

No one with a brain is saying this is fake but there is a very good chance that there will never be a universal vaccine so I sure wouldn't put my money down on that solving it and masks and destroying the economy sure won't. I suspect that this will be largely be very much like 1918 with the virus mutating and people getting immunity and it will end with a whimper and not a bang.

Now, will there be an economy to go back to? I suspect no conspiracy but I sure see a lot of government incompetence in balancing risks but the government doesn't do risk analysis. They know they will survive no matter how badly they do their job, or if they do it at all.
Posted By: 280shooter Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by djs
From Health News: "Why Sweden’s COVID-19 Strategy Can’t Work in the U.S."
see: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-what-happened-in-sweden-and-you-cant-compare-it-to-u-s

From Business Insider: "A new Swedish coronavirus antibody study suggests the herd-immunity strategy isn't working"
see: https://www.businessinsider.com/cor...sweden-not-reaching-herd-immunity-2020-5

The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?

The bigger issue is not just the death rate, but the lingering effects of those who survive. Respiratory and major organ damage results that leave many victims with diminished physical conditions.

Wrong. I just got off the phone with a Seattle hospital. 6 gunshot deaths in the last couple of weeks tested positive. Guess what. 6 COVID deaths added to the list. 7 COVID patients in the hospital currently. Re-tested every week for 6-7 weeks. Each week the positive test is added to the count. Be gullible if you want, but reality is what it is. I communicate with hospitals in multiple states weekly. Same story across the board.
Posted By: JCMCUBIC Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by 280shooter

Wrong. I just got off the phone with a Seattle hospital. 6 gunshot deaths in the last couple of weeks tested positive. Guess what. 6 COVID deaths added to the list. 7 COVID patients in the hospital currently. Re-tested every week for 6-7 weeks. Each week the positive test is added to the count. Be gullible if you want, but reality is what it is. I communicate with hospitals in multiple states weekly. Same story across the board.


???? 6 deaths added to the death count as 6 added to the positive count (one time).....but 7 real positives numbers result in from 42 to 49 positives which are not counted as deaths and keeping on counting up ????

Hard to say if that's numbers supporting high death counts or high survival rates?
Posted By: deflave Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
hatari,

Clearly you are a bot.

The news say everybody in Atlanta already dead.

Posted By: 280shooter Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
Originally Posted by 280shooter

Wrong. I just got off the phone with a Seattle hospital. 6 gunshot deaths in the last couple of weeks tested positive. Guess what. 6 COVID deaths added to the list. 7 COVID patients in the hospital currently. Re-tested every week for 6-7 weeks. Each week the positive test is added to the count. Be gullible if you want, but reality is what it is. I communicate with hospitals in multiple states weekly. Same story across the board.


???? 6 deaths added to the death count as 6 added to the positive count (one time).....but 7 real positives numbers result in from 42 to 49 positives which are not counted as deaths and keeping on counting up ????

Hard to say if that's numbers supporting high death counts or high survival rates?

6 people shot to death. They swab them. The test positive for COVID and are added to the COVID death count. 7 patients tested weekly. Net result: 6 new deaths and 42-49 cases. The numbers are bullshiite.
Posted By: Raeford Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by 280shooter
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
Originally Posted by 280shooter

Wrong. I just got off the phone with a Seattle hospital. 6 gunshot deaths in the last couple of weeks tested positive. Guess what. 6 COVID deaths added to the list. 7 COVID patients in the hospital currently. Re-tested every week for 6-7 weeks. Each week the positive test is added to the count. Be gullible if you want, but reality is what it is. I communicate with hospitals in multiple states weekly. Same story across the board.


???? 6 deaths added to the death count as 6 added to the positive count (one time).....but 7 real positives numbers result in from 42 to 49 positives which are not counted as deaths and keeping on counting up ????

Hard to say if that's numbers supporting high death counts or high survival rates?

6 people shot to death. They swab them. The test positive for COVID and are added to the COVID death count. 7 patients tested weekly. Net result: 6 new deaths and 42-49 cases. The numbers are bullshiite.


Ain't no monies in a 'non-COVID' death........
Posted By: jorgeI Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by Pugs
Originally Posted by djs
The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?.


Nice try sport. Numbers don't lie but people use them to build false arguments all the time.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

US case mortality is 10th in the list of countries and with 5.9% substantially less than most of the others. Deaths/1000 we're #9. We're doing fine in the larger sense especially once we honestly remove the folks who were placed in the un-winnable situation of care facilities and being already in danger from other significant health issues.

No one with a brain is saying this is fake but there is a very good chance that there will never be a universal vaccine so I sure wouldn't put my money down on that solving it and masks and destroying the economy sure won't. I suspect that this will be largely be very much like 1918 with the virus mutating and people getting immunity and it will end with a whimper and not a bang.

Now, will there be an economy to go back to? I suspect no conspiracy but I sure see a lot of government incompetence in balancing risks but the government doesn't do risk analysis. They know they will survive no matter how badly they do their job, or if they do it at all.


Game. set and match. Easy to see who the statists are...
Posted By: JCMCUBIC Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by 280shooter
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
Originally Posted by 280shooter

Wrong. I just got off the phone with a Seattle hospital. 6 gunshot deaths in the last couple of weeks tested positive. Guess what. 6 COVID deaths added to the list. 7 COVID patients in the hospital currently. Re-tested every week for 6-7 weeks. Each week the positive test is added to the count. Be gullible if you want, but reality is what it is. I communicate with hospitals in multiple states weekly. Same story across the board.


???? 6 deaths added to the death count as 6 added to the positive count (one time).....but 7 real positives numbers result in from 42 to 49 positives which are not counted as deaths and keeping on counting up ????

Hard to say if that's numbers supporting high death counts or high survival rates?

6 people shot to death. They swab them. The test positive for COVID and are added to the COVID death count. 7 patients tested weekly. Net result: 6 new deaths and 42-49 cases. The numbers are bullshiite.


For sure....
Posted By: djs Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by djs
The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?

The bigger issue is not just the death rate, but the lingering effects of those who survive. Respiratory and major organ damage results that leave many victims with diminished physical conditions.
If it's not BS, why does the press do their best to suppress effective treatments?


You mean the unproven, undocumented claims being promoted? My wife has taken hydroxychloroquine for over 20 years (for Lupus) and her physician had advised her that her immune system is compromised as a result of the Lupus) and that she is susceptible to the Corona-Virus.

Of course, Clorox WILL kill the virus, but it has some side effects.
Posted By: AKA_Spook Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by djs
Of course, Clorox WILL kill the virus, but it has some side effects.


try a swig and let us know?
Posted By: djs Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by Pugs
Originally Posted by djs
The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?.


Nice try sport. Numbers don't lie but people use them to build false arguments all the time.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

US case mortality is 10th in the list of countries and with 5.9% substantially less than most of the others. Deaths/1000 we're #9. We're doing fine in the larger sense especially once we honestly remove the folks who were placed in the un-winnable situation of care facilities and being already in danger from other significant health issues.

No one with a brain is saying this is fake but there is a very good chance that there will never be a universal vaccine so I sure wouldn't put my money down on that solving it and masks and destroying the economy sure won't. I suspect that this will be largely be very much like 1918 with the virus mutating and people getting immunity and it will end with a whimper and not a bang.

Now, will there be an economy to go back to? I suspect no conspiracy but I sure see a lot of government incompetence in balancing risks but the government doesn't do risk analysis. They know they will survive no matter how badly they do their job, or if they do it at all.


You are correct in what you point out Pugs. But we comparing 2 different data sets. Both are from Johns Hopkins University but, the date set you used is "Deaths per 100,000 Population". I divided the "Number of Deaths" by the "Number of Confirmed Cases" to give a measure of the mortality rate. Simply different ways of looking at the issue.

"No one with a brain is saying this is fake but there is a very good chance that there will never be a universal vaccine..."
1.) Some here on the 'fire have called the Covid-19 situation "BS" and a non-existent issue.
2.) And, as I have said previously, there may never be a vaccine developed. I have a friend who (as an Immunologist at a Medical School) has been working on an HIV vaccine since 1982 and is still at it. The 1918 pandemic (Spanish flu) did burn itself out, with the loss of many lives. From the CDC web site: "The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States." That's a lot of people and, a similar toll would also take a toll on the economy.
see: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html
Posted By: hatari Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by djs



You mean the unproven, undocumented claims being promoted? My wife has taken hydroxychloroquine for over 20 years (for Lupus) and her physician had advised her that her immune system is compromised as a result of the Lupus) and that she is susceptible to the Corona-Virus.

Of course, Clorox WILL kill the virus, but it has some side effects.



So what is really eating at you? No, besides the fact you hate Trump? What is really the issue that you're trying to get across? The issue beside the fact you HATE Trump?

Are you trying to tell us that a respiratory disease could have lingering effects? Since when is that news? We are talking about a disease. Some suck more than others. Haven't seen you on here bitching about Hep or TB. Tuberculosis is very contagious and very dangerous. It is a world wide problem. How come no protest about that?

So, what is really got your goat? One of two things:

1.) You are concerned about COVID because your wife is immuno compromised. OK, valid concern, so just come out with it. "This thing worries me because my wife is in the high risk category". At least I'd respect that out of you.

2.) You just HATE Trump and will resist anything he says or does. By your many posts, this seems to be the story.

I've got a news flash for you. SARS-COV-2 ain't going away. Chances for an effective vaccine to save the planet aren't good. Human corona viruses have been identified since 1960 and in SIXTY years, we have no vaccine for ANY of them. So if you expect the entire country to hide away until an effective vaccine can be found and produced in mass quantity, you've lost touch with reality. At best it will be a year or more. By then, this virus will have made its second and third wave around the world, if there is going to be one.

At some point, the masses AND the "scientists" will have to come to the realization that the world will need to cope and live with SARS-COV-2 just like they do Hep B, TB, HIV, Influenza A & B, typhus, cholera and a whole host of other things.

Yes, people will get sick. People will continue contracting this thing years from now, vaccine or no vaccine. You will never get 100% of the world vaccinated any more than you will get 100% herd immunity, but the numbers will drop. You might see hot spots flare up, but we now have the capacity to treat people. You DO recall that was the big fear, that the healthcare system would crash from over demand?

So, troll, what is it you really want? You want everyone in America to stay at home to protect your wife? Noble thought. That would make you a caring, though unrealistic husband thinking that your specific wants need to cause 300 million people to alter their lives and livelihood indefinitely for your family. Or is this just more "Resist Trump" blather?

How about you let doctors decide what treatment is best for their patients. You know, trained healthcare people? I could believe you, a social media warrior in that the treatments currently discussed are, now how did you put it? Ah, here's how you put it:

"You mean the unproven, undocumented claims being promoted?"

I could believe you, or my neighbor the Pulmonologist who uses hydroxyxhlorquine and remsdesivir right now at Northside Hospital and says they work. Or maybe my other neighbor who is an ER physician at Wellstar North Fulton hospital. Funny that he says they work. Maybe it doesn't work in Blue States, only Red? Maybe it doesn't work on progressive liberal socialists? As Gus might say "Does anyone really know?"

So out with it. What is your REAL message and motivation?

You can try the Clorox thing if you want. The rest of us understand satire.
Posted By: Fubarski Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by 280shooter
Wrong. I just got off the phone with a Seattle hospital. 6 gunshot deaths in the last couple of weeks tested positive. Guess what. 6 COVID deaths added to the list. 7 COVID patients in the hospital currently. Re-tested every week for 6-7 weeks. Each week the positive test is added to the count. Be gullible if you want, but reality is what it is. I communicate with hospitals in multiple states weekly. Same story across the board.


Be careful.

Ol' Poof'll take out his dentures and gum ya ta death, for reportin what goes on in hospitals.
Posted By: johnn Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by djs
From Health News: "Why Sweden’s COVID-19 Strategy Can’t Work in the U.S."
see: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-what-happened-in-sweden-and-you-cant-compare-it-to-u-s

From Business Insider: "A new Swedish coronavirus antibody study suggests the herd-immunity strategy isn't working"
see: https://www.businessinsider.com/cor...sweden-not-reaching-herd-immunity-2020-5

The whole corona-virus issue is not made-up BS. It is real and the US death toll is now jut below 100,.000 and climbing. We account for over 28% of the world's deaths and 29% of the cases. Who knows where it will end before a vaccine is developed, tested and mass-produced?

The bigger issue is not just the death rate, but the lingering effects of those who survive. Respiratory and major organ damage results that leave many victims with diminished physical conditions.


the amount of cases is irrelevant as those are only known cases, its likely there are a lot more cases than have been tested for. vaccine, dont hole your breath, think HIV, Its nothing to sneeze at....
Posted By: Springcove Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Damn Hatari don’t hang out in a limb tell us how you really feel😂...

Bravo. That was a damn fine post.
Posted By: GregW Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
Originally Posted by hatari
Originally Posted by djs



You mean the unproven, undocumented claims being promoted? My wife has taken hydroxychloroquine for over 20 years (for Lupus) and her physician had advised her that her immune system is compromised as a result of the Lupus) and that she is susceptible to the Corona-Virus.

Of course, Clorox WILL kill the virus, but it has some side effects.



So what is really eating at you? No, besides the fact you hate Trump? What is really the issue that you're trying to get across? The issue beside the fact you HATE Trump?

Are you trying to tell us that a respiratory disease could have lingering effects? Since when is that news? We are talking about a disease. Some suck more than others. Haven't seen you on here bitching about Hep or TB. Tuberculosis is very contagious and very dangerous. It is a world wide problem. How come no protest about that?

So, what is really got your goat? One of two things:

1.) You are concerned about COVID because your wife is immuno compromised. OK, valid concern, so just come out with it. "This thing worries me because my wife is in the high risk category". At least I'd respect that out of you.

2.) You just HATE Trump and will resist anything he says or does. By your many posts, this seems to be the story.

I've got a news flash for you. SARS-COV-2 ain't going away. Chances for an effective vaccine to save the planet aren't good. Human corona viruses have been identified since 1960 and in SIXTY years, we have no vaccine for ANY of them. So if you expect the entire country to hide away until an effective vaccine can be found and produced in mass quantity, you've lost touch with reality. At best it will be a year or more. By then, this virus will have made its second and third wave around the world, if there is going to be one.

At some point, the masses AND the "scientists" will have to come to the realization that the world will need to cope and live with SARS-COV-2 just like they do Hep B, TB, HIV, Influenza A & B, typhus, cholera and a whole host of other things.

Yes, people will get sick. People will continue contracting this thing years from now, vaccine or no vaccine. You will never get 100% of the world vaccinated any more than you will get 100% herd immunity, but the numbers will drop. You might see hot spots flare up, but we now have the capacity to treat people. You DO recall that was the big fear, that the healthcare system would crash from over demand?

So, troll, what is it you really want? You want everyone in America to stay at home to protect your wife? Noble thought. That would make you a caring, though unrealistic husband thinking that your specific wants need to cause 300 million people to alter their lives and livelihood indefinitely for your family. Or is this just more "Resist Trump" blather?

How about you let doctors decide what treatment is best for their patients. You know, trained healthcare people? I could believe you, a social media warrior in that the treatments currently discussed are, now how did you put it? Ah, here's how you put it:

"You mean the unproven, undocumented claims being promoted?"

I could believe you, or my neighbor the Pulmonologist who uses hydroxyxhlorquine and remsdesivir right now at Northside Hospital and says they work. Or maybe my other neighbor who is an ER physician at Wellstar North Fulton hospital. Funny that he says they works. Maybe it doesn't work in Blue States, only Red? Maybe it doesn't work on progressive liberal socialists? As Gus might say "Does anyone really know?"

So out with it. What is your REAL message and motivation?

You can try the Clorox thing if you want. The rest of us understand satire.


Mic drop post, well done sir..
Posted By: slowmover12 Re: Sweden Update - 05/27/20
As for me and my house, if we test positive for the virus, we’ll shop doctors until we get the hydroxy and whatever else the docs suggest— whether “proven” or not. Few drugs have 60 years of usage. The side effects are known. The libtards in the blue states can wait on the proof and die out if they want.
Posted By: Dillonbuck Re: Sweden Update - 05/28/20
If you adjust Sweden's stats to reflect that a huge number of their cases
are in the uneducated, poor, living in filth and crowded condition Somalian
immigrants. Just more trouble from your unfriendly imported Islamist.


Just a hillbilly speculating, but from the beginning, I believe Sweden
is the one country doing this right.

Their curve went higher than ours, sure. But...

They were able to treat every single covid patient. Hmmm! And,
They also treated everyone else that needed treatment... Unlike...US?

Now, we are worried about a resurgence as we loosen up.
We are worried about the fall.

Maybe, they went higher,
But while our "curve" is likely to look like an EKG,
They will probably fall to a low plateau.
Posted By: Ringman Re: Sweden Update - 05/28/20
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Anybody that thinks this whole virus bullshit was not just a follow on to the Russia, Ukraine hoaxes, is either an idiot or a democrat traitor (or both)


One of the best posts on this virus I read.
Posted By: JCMCUBIC Re: Sweden Update - 05/28/20
Originally Posted by slowmover12
As for me and my house, if we test positive for the virus, we’ll shop doctors until we get the hydroxy and whatever else the docs suggest— whether “proven” or not. Few drugs have 60 years of usage. The side effects are known. The libtards in the blue states can wait on the proof and die out if they want.


Just a suggestion but you might want to shop docs before you get sick.
Posted By: There_Ya_Go Re: Sweden Update - 05/28/20
Originally Posted by Stickfight
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Sweden, a semi-socialist nation.


Sweden isn’t Socialist, that is a Bernie claim so he could peddle his version of Marxist Democratic Socialism.


Correct, but they have a social welfare system. Doesn't that qualify them as a semi-socialist nation?
Posted By: Dirtfarmer Re: Sweden Update - 05/28/20
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Originally Posted by Stickfight
Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Sweden, a semi-socialist nation.


Sweden isn’t Socialist, that is a Bernie claim so he could peddle his version of Marxist Democratic Socialism.


Correct, but they have a social welfare system. Doesn't that qualify them as a semi-socialist nation?

Europe is mostly socialistic to one degree or another, somewhere north of Venezuela and Cuba, but socialistic.

Germany's Merkel grew up in Communist E. Germany. That kinda thinking evidently runs pretty deep over there.

DF
Posted By: Dillonbuck Re: Sweden Update - 05/28/20
Talk of Socialism kills me. No direct offense intended, not personal.

People don't think.
It's like a fart. Mine is ok.


Taxing everyone to build, roads, buildings, police, hospitals, school,
Sports arenas,.....

That's socialism boys.

And where do we see that?


And never forget. The sacred [bleep] cow.
You know. The one that your daddy, or some of our old pharts
put a couple percent of their meager 1950's-80's pay into.
Now they suckin a couple grand a month out of. Plus it's cousin.

While I pay 15% to keep it rollin for them.


IT'S SOCIAL PHUGGING SECURITY!

Hint, notice the Social.
It means sumpin'!
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