I picked up a pristine Freedom Arms Premier 454 Casull this fall. The gun came with 9 factory 260 gr. rounds. Holy Toledo! This baby is fierce! My previous big bore experience was with a .44 mag, but this is another cat.
I read a lot about the Linebaughs, especially the 475, and the 50 cals, but not so much about the 454 anymore. I did read a comment recently that said if you can shoot the 454 you can shoot any of the rest, and the 454 probably recoils "harder" almost any of the other big ones. I am guessing this could be a function of very fast recoil velocity due to the high velocity of the round, but I don't have enough experience with big bore handguns like this to know.
I would like to hear opinions from you handgun guru's.
I am currently loading practice rounds to 45 Colt velocities, and heavier hunting rounds to top .44 velocities.

Here is my 2 cents, others may disagree. I can shoot the 454. It does have nasty recoil but I can tolerate it. I've owned a 475 linebaugh and struggled to master the hot rounds. I think when you push a 400 gn bullet to almost 1400 fps out of the linebaugh, there is not much out there that is worse. I've owned 3 500 smith's and could shoot them better than the 475. Everyone handles recoil differently, but that was my experience. I will tell you that a hot loaded 44 mag or 45 colt is very easy for me. You can load that 454 down to whatever feels comfortable to you, as you can with most big bore revolvers. Practice alot and you will master that gun.

I have a Ruger Super Redhawk .454 Casull with a 9 and 1/2" barrel. It's scoped and I hunt with it. I shoot the Hornady 300 grain JHP/XTP/MAG at 1650 fps through it. It's hot. The recoil is very fast and strong...it makes ya' see dots and glitches and [bleep]. It's about all I want in a hunting handgun.

No guru here, but I've had two Casull's, both in Raging Bulls and two X framed Smiths in the 10.5" barreled PC version, in 460 and 500. Still have the 500 and a 6.5" RB Casull. but will be selling the 500 soon.

My X frames were quite a bit heavier guns than the Casull's so they didn't shoot much different, felt recoil wise, even with heavier bullets in the 500. 700 grainers excepted . The 460 did come back much quicker and was a wrist snapper, for sure. No damage to the wrist but I did have to have both rotator cuffs repaired after having them for a few years. Coincidence, I'm sure, as I've lived a life that's banged me around a lot in my younger years.

The RB Casull has a rep for being a softer shooting Casull than it's competition. It's factory ported and has a specially designed soft grip that takes up a good bit of recoil. The same was true with the X framed Smiths. I don't believe your FA has those features.

Like the other poster mentioned, you can load the Casull to about anything you need. Titegroup is a good powder for light loads. I tried 10.5 and 11 grains of it with 225 grain Barnes and 240 grain XTP's. It gave good accuracy with velocities in the 1200 to 1300+ range. Those won't bounce off a deer or pig.

I've also used H4227 to excellent accuracy results. I've posted a few threads about that load to spread the word, so to speak. One just this morning. At 31 grains with a 225 Barnes, it's a relatively mild Casull load compared to H110 and similar, but should be sending the 225 grainer around 1500-1600. Not sure of the terminal performance yet as this is a Colt bullet but hoping the lessor velocity, though more than a Colt, will even things out. The bullets were on sale an couldn't pass them up.

Have fun with your Casull! Just load them where you need them, and few need them at full tilt.

I shot a 454 in a SRH, recoil wise, not bad says the fat man.


I shot a 454 in a 6" Freedom Arms, recoil wise, that's pretty rough says the fat man.


I shot a 475 Linebaugh in s 4.75" Freedom Arms, recoil wise, take this SOB away from me says the fat man.


I am far from a big bore expert but that 475 Linebaugh was the meanest thing I have ever fired. 1 cylinder was more than enough for me, we shot Buffalo Bore from all 3 guns.

Agreed on the linebaugh. Thought I was a recoil master shooter until I lost a bout with the 475.

Now ya got me curious. But I won't pay the admission fee for a lesson. The Casull is all I need.

Actually, a 357 had me calling uncle. Full house 357 handloads out of a 12 oz scandium framed gun are more brutal than any handgun I've fired to date. The gun can take it (though a very tight crimp is required) but I can't. My hand was bruised for weeks after 7 rounds with hard plastic CTC grips.

I shot some linebaugh loads that were a 400 at close to 1400 fps. I was flinching so bad I couldnt hit anything. I ended up loading 2 rounds in the gun and firing to try and catch my flinch. I saw what I was doing, so I tried to take a breath, take my time and gently touch one off. The gun rolled in my hand and the trigger guard somehow cut my other hand. Must have had a loose grip. That caliber takes some serious concentration. I'm a fairly big guy, 6'4 230ish. That gun beat my tail. Lighter loads were'nt bad and were very accurate. I thought to myself, why have that caliber just to shoot sub 480 ruger loads. So I'm back to heavy 45 colt and moderate 454 loads.

No thanks. No need.

Factory 440 hardcast out of the big Smith run over 1600 and they can be handloaded several hundred fps faster, but the Smith is a much heavier revolver, ported, and with a different grip frame and grip than a FA. Apples and oranges.

I mostly loaded 275 Barnes and 300 grain Gold Dots for my 500. Very accurate, not bad recoil-wise (I loaded them max), and very effective, which I never wondered about.

I loaded some 700 grain hardcast (just had to try them ) for the Smith and chrono'ed the top loads at 1300. Ended up selling most of them as I had no desire to shoot the rest and no idea what I needed them for, unless Jurassic Park became a reality.

I've never been fond of magnum SSA style revolvers ever since I shot a friends 44 mag Super Blackhawk back in the 70's. I've never liked the roll in the shooting hand. I prefer a Redhawk, Smith, or Taurus double action style revolver with heavy kickers. I've heard the Bisley grip lends much to recoil control and tolerance and was on the lookout for a 45 convertible, until this RB came up. So far I'm very pleased with it.

I am of the school of thought that .454 velocities aren't necessary (nor the consequent recoil and muzzle blast) for effectiveness on game. When you start loading the .454 with heavy bullets -- 300 + grains, the recoil get get pretty snappy. I don't think it is on par with a .475 loaded to spec -- it's more sharp and fast but not as heavy a push. X-frames by virtue of their sheer bulk tame the recoil of the .500 S&W quite a bit so it's not really a good point of reference with regards to recoil. The various .50 Caliber rounds that fit in a "normally-sized" revolver can take you to a whole new level of recoil over the .475 IMO. I had a .500 Linebaugh on an SRH that was downright nasty compared to my .475 on an SRH, but they all pale next to my .500 Maximum, and I need not even talk about my .50 Alaskan as that is in a whole different league. My point is that there are steps up and over even the .475 for the true masochist!

I think if you load the Casull down and load it with heavy bullets (335s, etc.), it not only becomes manageable, but you could even call it pleasant and it will not leave you wanting more on big game.

Do you intend to hunt with your new .454?

If you're asking me (I'm not the OP), I do. In fact, now that it's stopped raining, I'm headed out for the afternoon for the Iowa deer season. I'll be carrying a Savage slug gun for 100 yards and longer shots but also the Casull for closer work.

This particular gun has showed some excellent accuracy potential. If I was hunting heavier quarry, such as elk or moose, I'd certainly lean more towards heavier bullets, but for deer or pig, I tend to believe bullets that offer good expansive and weight retention are what might serve me best.

BTW: we agree about the weight of the X-frames taming magnum recoil. I also believe their grip style and grip material used add a lot, perhaps even more than the porting.

I perfer the bisley grip over anything else when it comes to big recoil in a sa revolver. Fits my hand extremely well. I've also screwed around with the 700's out of one of my 500's and found no reason to own them either. Shot em over top of lil gun. They werent very accurate.

+1, Whit knows his stuff!

I intend to hunt elk with my 454 next year. I may just duplicate my old .44 load- 325 hard cast WFN at 1300 fps. They worked fine on the one big animal I shot with that load, a 500+ lb black bear that made B&C. I shot him at 10 paces facing me and the 2 bullets went through him end to end.

I have both a 454 and a bfr in 45-70,the bfr is a far better caliber with less recoil to boot and hits alot harder.

Jayco

The power factor of the 2 side with the 454 if you're using standard 45/70 ammo. Hot stuff in the 45/70 would be tough to handle, but would best the 454. You're shooting the same bullet, just alot less pressure with the 45/70 due to the bigger case capacity.

Marlin 1895 loads in the BFR 45/70 will give you all the speed and weight bullets of even a 500 Smith.

The frontal area, not so much.

jayco

I've shot a SRH in .454 with full-power Buffalo BOre ammo, that chrono'd 1620fps with 300's. It was pretty stout.

My .480, with 350's runs about 1350 fps, and it is about all I want. I normally use a PAST gloove to take some sting out of it.

These are heavy, non-expanding bullets, and I'm not sure that higher velocity really buys much in killing power. Short of trying to shoot a big bear or moose, I'm starting to lean away from hand-cannons.

For me, recoil is mind over bloody knuckles. My most severe handgun would bruise my fingers and leave me with a bloody knuckle or two even with a shooting glove on. It was the most accurate handgun I have ever fired at 100 yds. THerefore I pressed on through the pain to achieve the goal of accurate effective hunting loads. But, there was no need for the punishment.

I have resolved myself to hunting with my 45 Colt and it is fun to hunt with. I do have a 460 XVR 8 3/8" barrel but will ease myself into familiarity with it. There is no need for punishing recoil.

The 45 colt is one of the best calibers when properly loaded. Definetly my personal favorite!

One of my all-time favorites as well!

My personal favorite as well, not much a 45 Colt can't handle

The 475L, 500L, 500 JRH in a FA or Ruger all recoil more with top loads than a 454. A 475 loaded to 1200 fps instead of 1400fps is much more shootable load and lacks nothing on game

This mirrors my experience with the same pistol. The only pistol I've ever shot a dozen times and then sold because it was so miserable....

It does make a very good 38+P revolver, though. The holster can weigh more than the gun.

Ive hunted with a 8 3/8" or more recently a 10 5/8" 44 mag S&W and a 10" 445 dan wesson super mag for decades, when the 500 s&w came out I was convinced for awhile I had to have one, but after trying a few dozen shots from a friends 500, S&W and found it a bit too large and heavy and I began,looking back at the results Ive had with my current revolvers, I no longer see the need, so Ill continue with what I have a 44 mag with a 10" barrel has zero problems pushing a hard cast 300 grain past 1400 fps and the 445 pushes the same bullets to near 1600fps (basically the 454 power range) both pistols shoot thru large hogs and exit.
if your punching fairly large holes thru game from most angles and having the bullets exit I don,t see added power as a huge plus.
and while Id easily admit a 500 S&W or 454 can be loaded to hit harder I don,t see the need, the largest game Im ever likely to hunt is black bear or ELK and either of my current revolvers has been well proven to be more than adequate so why go the extra cost or put up with more recoil.

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I agree. There is a point where enough is enough. When I bought the 454 I was actually looking for another Freedom Arms .44 mag. There are a few dozen used 454's available on the gun auction sites at any time, and I found one locally that was absolutely pristine, right down to the price tag still in the box. I got it at too good a price to pass up, and I reload so it is no problem tailoring loads. I don't know that I'll ever shoot full house loads as I find them to be vicious to shoot, and unnecessary for killing elk.

So, why must we learn this the hard way? Did we really think we could do better?

I have been having issues with my RB .454 when shooting deer. I seem to never get a blood trail and the deer runs away like it has not been hit and i have lost more deer than found.

I have used a couple bullets, and the same result. I am thinking that the bullet is blowing through too fast and not mushrooming or creating a initial shock. I currently am using hornady 300gr. XTP mag's loaded at book max.

My chrono says 1,450 fps when the book says 1,600 with the same length barrel. Would i be better loading a 250gr. barnes or partition?

I find the recoil more sharp and fast than my buds .50AE which is more of a push.

How far are they away?


You know, if you could tree or trap them and get good and close, I'll bet they'll work 30 percent quicker than a wide, flat cast or softnose cast....

last one was 15yds broadside, farthest was 40 yds.

Shoot for bone.

Sorry for the sarcasm; it had me thinking about another thread.

Quite honestly I've seen similar results from the XTP.

Have you tried the Freedom Arms JSP's?

No go on the bone, shot 2 at 20 yds quarter to, i aimed for the lead shoulder and it hopped away holding up the one shoulder, no blood, just hair on both, the other one acted like it was never hit and these were smaller deer. Really fustrating.

I never used the FA bullet.

The FA bullet has a nice, squarish meplat, which helps when they don't open.


The biggest issue with Casull bullets (in my VERY limited experience) is that they are designed not to deform at the base, and most jackets aren't tapered, so deforming at the front is also suspect. When they don't open, holes/wounds are smallish and are far smaller than a wadcutter or large meplat cast bullets.

A lighter XTP or the two you mention would work better, although they are a bit pricey for pistol fodder and you need to watch pressures.

Personally, I'd load up a Keith (Lyman 4452429) of RCBS SAA-270 to 1,000-1,200 fps and watch them fold....

Those FA bullets are really tough and not meant to expand much if at all. Wish they would produce the 300 grainers again.

Yep, most certainly to prevent core slippage and excessive base obturation.

I once thought the 300gr. Sierra JSP would be about perfect for 45 Colt levels, but on deer at eighty paces and another just feet away, I found them lacking expansion and the ability to keep that square face.

The older style plow handle can be painful to shoot with a powerful enough load. For me, it us just tolerable when pushing a 335 WFN to 1106 fps from my 4-5/8" NMBH 45 Colt. In a 5-1/2" Bisley, it's a pussy cat with the Bisley grip. As far as the effectiveness of the 335 gr @ 1100 fps. I'll let the following speak for itself.

Alan

The .454 M83's are pretty easy to find for sale, used. The other calibers not so much

Nice bull GSSP! Was that in Utah?
I used the 325 WFN at 1300 in my old .44. It worked well, on the one big animal I used it on.
Before selecting it I read that the wide, flat nose with square edges cuts a good hole that doesn't just close up behind the bullet, as round nose bullets were said to.

Cobrad -- Alaska......

The 50AE lacks the velocity of the Casull at maximum loading, is a semi-auto and likely weighs more than your RB. All reasons the recoil will be different.

You might want to consider using Barnes as a deer hunting bullet. Partitions or Gold Dots would also be good choices. I believe any of those would open more consistently than either a 240 or 300 XTP.

If you would also like to try light loads, that still achieve decent hunting velocities, try Titegroup. If you want to step up a bit more from that, H4227 is a good choice.

Exactly! I have the same problems with my 45-70 BFR. Bullet is too fast with no expansion. You NEED some but not too much expansion for deer when you shoot fast bullets. The velocity of the .454 is too much for a tough bullet on small animals. Get a heavy bullet to 1300 to 1350 fps max and things change. The .45 Colt at 1100 is actually better with a hard bullet. Too much expansion with the 45-70 or .454 will turn a deer into a bloody mess.
Recoil is gun weight and large calibers are pleasant as long as the gun has some. I like the BFR's for the .475 and JRH. I like longer barrels of 7-1/2" to 10". Not carry guns, hunting guns.
I shot 6 deer this season, 2 with the JRH, 2 with the .475 and 2 with the .44 SBH. The .475 put both deer on the ground DRT so I did not need a blood trail. I use a hard cast at 1329 fps, 420 gr. This is the penetration. The deer was facing me on a hill at 67 yards. I hit him below the chin and the boolit exited next to the anus.

<a href="http://s244.beta.photobucket.com/user/bfrshooter/media/neckshotexitwith475.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/neckshotexitwith475.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

I lost the exit picture.

I actually lost no meat and did not break guts. The boolit took out a pile of ribs under the back strap without hurting the back strap.

if you handload, 44 caliber for hunting a good cast /gas check bullet with a wide melplat that weights close to 270-300 grains, and cast from 96% wheel weights and 5% tin is what I,ve used for decades, I seldom fail to get exit wounds and rarely have game run far
both blue dot and H110 seem to provide good results in the 44 mag, blue dot gives up a bit of velocity but not much, and I seem to get better accuracy and many more cartridges per pound

knowing the games anatomy is critical to getting good results, you can,t shoot at any part with hair and expect to get fast kills, you can EXPECT deer to run a short distance when hit but hit correctly distances covered are usually short , hogs in my experience don,t travel even that far.



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I use all kinds of guns but in the end the truth is there is none better for deer then the .44.
Stay away from silly 180 or 200 gr explosive bullets. Even the 240 XTP opens too fast. Go to the 300 XTP or a 270 to 320 gr cast with a good meplat.

Are you saying it's better to have a heavy slow bullet than a fast light on for deer? I would rather have rapid expansion than penetration, as i don't think any bullet from a .454 at a reasonable distance will fail to exit.

Whit is correct; North of Nome, Alaska. He's 62" and likely every bit of 1300-1400 lbs.

Your understanding of the wide meplat is spot on.

Alan

I've used the 454,460 and 500's..and have come full circle back to the .45 Colt pushing a 300 or 325 at 1200 FPS..it simply works and is shootable.

The real question is- why would you ever need anything bigger?

Well, if the shooter can handle the bigger caliber, loaded correctly they just do more. I like big holes, they leak a lot!

That Garret Cartridges .44 Magnum load of a 330-gr SuperHardCast Long Hammerhead at 1400-fps is badass.
I don't hand load for handguns...but using a long heavy for caliber bullet in a .454 Casull that has a wide meplat and is super hard cast and operating at the maximum velocity and pressure would seemingly make for a super badass round.

A common mistake is pushing hardcast bullets too fast. The material cannot take too much velocity, the nose degrades and penetration suffers as a result. You really don't have to push a wide meplat hardcast bullet fast for it to be effective.

Can't they be cast hard enough so the higher velocity won't cause the problems you mention?

Often when you make them too hard, they become brittle and can come apart when they connect with something hard like bone.

What about a material like those 'solids' that they shoot through buffalo in Africa with very little deformation of the bullet? Couldn't that kind of material be used?

Yes. I shot many deer with fast opening bullets and recovered too many inside the deer. I was lucky to find some deer because there was no blood trail at all back to where I shot them. Then I thought about a big bone hit, not good. I went to the .44 LBT 320 gr and the blood trails are amazing. Thick country with a million trails and tracks so you can lose a deer. I made a 330 gr mold and also use the Lee 310 gr, all work.
I thought going faster with the 45-70 would be better but hard boolits just poke a hole, no blood for 100 yards and deer can go over 200 yards. I went to a softer boolit but it was too soft and made a red mist with huge meat loss. It has to be somewhere in between.
What I figured is the flat meplat from a hard boolit will create a pressure wave too far forward of the ogive and make a huge secondary wound channel that collapses while removing tissue from contact with the boolit. Deer shot with the fast, hard flat nose had pink lungs with a hole through.
The .454 is fast so I think just some expansion is needed.
A larger animal where the pressure wave comes back from the boolit slowing should make the boolit work but deer are small.
Nothing proven of course, just what I figure but I shoot a lot of deer.
The .475 has been amazing but I now see a problem with the .500 JRH. The huge, heavy boolit does not slow down and the two I shot this season left a zero blood trail. I might need a little softer nose. I backtrack every deer and found nothing on the ground at all. One ran towards me 100 yards and dropped with no blood trail back to where I shot him. I am concerned.
This is a work in progress and I have no answers yet.
The truth is I get huge blood trails with heavy boolits in the .44 and deer do not go far.
It is not only the exit you need but what the boolit does before exit. I was wrong thinking making a hard WFN faster would make it do more damage.

If you want a bullet that can stand the high velocity then the "Punch" bullet is your "huckleberry". The added velocity really gains you nothing, but each to his/her own

I am one that finds the .475 Linebaugh to have more recoil and be more difficult to shoot well than a full power .45 Colt/ .454 Casull load (350gr WLN at 1500 fps).

When I worked for Linebaugh I could shoot all the .475 and .500s I wanted and let�s just say it was never really very many. A few in a day seemed like more than enough.

I have never killed any game with the .475 Linebaugh but my experience with the 45 Colt/ .454 Casull has me wondering just how much better it could be on game up to and including elk and moose. The 45s seemed like a step up from my old .44 but how much more there is to be gained was always a question for me.

In other words the 45s have always worked better than expected.

+1, John. On the realy big stuff the 475 and 500's definitely hit harder but may not kill better they definitely take the go out of them quicker IMHO

I love handgun hunting as much as anyone. I know my limitations. Unlike a rifle, practicing to proficiency with a handgun is beyond time consuming.

I've fired a full horse powered .454 Casull once, enough to know that handgun hunting is better left to those with more time to gain proficiency and possessive of expertise that I was born without.

+2 the 475 is a great round, but I struggled to shoot it accurately. I have no problem with the colt and can handle the 454 well too.

Regarding penetration...I've shot animals through and through...and I've shot animals where there was no exit wound. It seems that if a bullet stays inside of the animal...as long as you penetrate through to the vitals...that all of the energy that is carried by that bullet is expended in the animal, instead of exiting the animal and taking energy with it.

Ive always been rather skeptical, of the idea that having
"all of the energy that is carried by that bullet is expended in the animal, instead of exiting the animal and taking energy with it."
is nearly as useful as having a larger exit or at least TWO open holes in the hide to allow blood to drain, and that the "SECRET" here is knowing the games anatomy and proper shot placement, and the near instant destruction of vital organs rather than any slight increase in total energy transfer.
the fact is that handgun bullets kill by disrupting or destroying tissue, and organ function and blood loss, more similar to archery than what a 270 win or 300 mag does with adding hydrostatic shock and a much larger temporary cavity.
destroy the heart,lungs,liver or a few major arteries death will be rapid but not instant, sever the spine, neck or destroy both shoulder or the brain and you usually drop game nearly on the spot, so I generally try for shots that penetrate thru the central front chest and either enter or exit where they are likely to break a major bone when thats possible... punch the light green area and game doesn,t go far

I agree with this. Energy dump and muzzle energy is a myth and neither kills animals.
Shot placement is so important too.
In truth it does not matter if a boolit goes to the moon after going through an animal as long as it worked while inside. Stopping any bullet inside an animal never made it better. Too many times it is WORSE.

I think penetrating through to the vital organs--and having all of the bullets energy expended in the animal, and in particular in the vital organs--will disrupt and/or destroy a lot of tissue and vital organ function...and cause a lot of blood loss. You don't have more blood loss just because you have an exit wound. You may have more blood on the ground...but the animal's blood loss still occurs from the previously mentioned damage.

If the animal has bled profusely inside of it's body, it's going to have the same effect from blood loss on that animal as if the animal had bled from an exit wound and onto the ground instead.

Blood loss is blood loss.

Most here with the big guns have a huge level of experience more then I do shooting them. I have had a lot of clients with these guns and have shot many of them a few times.

After seeing most of them used with various kinds of bullets, I have come to the conclusion regarding hunting revolvers. The .44 mag seems to be the greatest level of recoil investment for the power delivered. It's very much like the 375HH in the rifle world.

The 375HH is at the level of recoil that most adult men can handle or learn to handle. The .44 mag seems to be at that same level in the handgun world. It's my opinion that if you cannot kill what you're hunting with the 375HH then you have a problem. The same can be said for the .44 magnum. If your unable to cleanly kill what you're hunting with a .44 magnum there is another problem.

The loads available for the .44 magnum can provide astonishing penetration and crumple effect on all sorts of big game. At least those which are normally hunted and not considered a "stunt" event. People with the skills who choose to hunt Hippo, rhino, elephant, cape buffalo etc. with a handgun are usually at another level mentally and physically.

For ordinary big game hunting even including moose and bison, I have no concern over a .44 mag being used within archery hunting ranges.

The guns that escalate to higher levels of power and recoil certainly kill better and faster and provide additional margin for error. There are however a scant few that can operate them with the same level of comfort and skill of the .44 magnum.

Today the powder and bullets available a quite a bit better then those available 40 years ago when this was the big dog in the handgun world. The Garrett Cartridge bullets out of a 7.5" redhawk is a very impressive level of power for the biggest game.

It's also a heavy and not very user friendly gun to pack around, unless that is the whole intent to hunt with. This means there are really different levels to consider. Holstered as a side arm, or to be used as a prime hunting tool. I had a 375JDJ which was a "kinda" handgun that was a prime hunting tool for me. But no way a packable side arm,

I shot a 480 Ruger which was a wonderful shooting gun, that I really liked. The 454 Casull was kinda snappy, but very confidence inspiring. Neither would be able to replace the 44 mag for me though. The .44 is just the near perfect balance of recoil investment to lethal power delivered in my opinion.

Only a small non traceable amount of energy is acctualy transferred in an inelastic collision (which is what a bullet collision is) momentum is always transferred.

This transfer the energy is just BS

Then there is a significant difference between the mechanism of tissue damage between high velocity rifle bullets...and lower velocity handgun bullets.

Don't forget to throw in the length of that damage and pair it against the rifle's wound diameter, most of which bleeds little as it causes immediate clotting.

44?

The 45 Colt provides better killing ability due to frontal area without the need to load it to the gills. Talk about recoil to power ratio, even when duping the 44 Magnum in the speed and bullet weight category.

Rifle concepts and experiences don't apply to handguns, unless you can show me a pistol bullet that looses a significant amount of weight or one that even expands every time.....

Since a rifle cartridges produces a significant amount more velocity than a revolver which in turn produces a higher amount of hydraulic presser which stretches the tissue past its elastic limits

Big bore handgun calibers reached their zenith with Elmer Keith's .44 mag. We used to shoot all kinds of rifle calibers in T/C contenders like .30-30, .243, etc. They were not fun after the novelty wore off. I feel the same about the .454 and larger calibers. Better to carry a rifle. The one great exception is for people working around big bears. A large caliber handgun is always on your person, not leaning against a tree when you really need it. It might be worth learning to shoot the really large calibers if you find yourself around bears with humps.

Why is it better to carry a rifle? I personally have no trouble shooting the larger calibers, and hunt almost exclusively with revolvers nowadays. I'm not clear as to the meaning of your post.

I'm going to take a stab at this. Energy dump vs complete pass through.

When the flat meplat of a bullet designed to not expand is pushing it's way through flesh, at the appropriate velocity, it has a "splash" effect. Where as the flesh is being pushed aside, damaging that flesh. The damaged tunnel or wound channel will be larger than the diameter of the meplat.

If a bullet is pushed too fast, the bullet, depending upon construction, may not hold it's flat frontal shape, thus diminishing the "splash" effect and thus reducing the diameter of the damaged tunnel or permanent would channel. I would also put expanding handgun bullets in this arena too.

If the bullet is traveling through the flesh too slowly, it is likely to have a diminished "splash" effect and, again, a reduced diameter of the damaged tunnel.

So, for the energy dump crowd I surmise that as the bullet is slowing down and not creating an exit point, the meplat is not creating as large a wound channel diameter. Upon initial entry the meplat is likely doing it's job with a large wound channel but the channel is diminishing in size as the bullet comes to rest within the animal.

On the other side, the bullet pushed to the appropriate velocity, with it's non damaged meplat, is creating the desired wound channel all the way into and completely through the animal. We not only have two blood drain holes but the complete wound channel is large, as we want it to be.

Either will likely bring the demise of the animal but the complete pass through, hopefully, will do it quicker.

Opinions on my attempt to compare the two thoughts?

Alan

Sounds about right, but I dont know anything compared to John and Whit. What do you guys think? By the way Whit, I'm sure you heard this a thousand times but your book is fantastic. Only book I've ever read more than once. Such a wealth of info on big bore handguns. Thank you for writing it.
Ryan

JWP and Whitworth are exactly right.
A revolver is just like a rifle and has three results. A hole punched with little damage, perfect kills with large blood trails and no distance traveled or complete destruction of the animal. Once you understand it is a balance between a bullet and velocity you will know.
Many do not know just how affective a revolver can be or how much destruction they can do.
The problem is many think all things work and that is not true for rifles either. You go to a lot of trouble picking a load and bullet with the rifle for the game but you expect the revolver to do anything with any bullet.
Some think a 2" revolver will do what a 7-1/2" will no matter the size of the caliber and case.
So hard to explain that more velocity is not the answer, that DUMP is a foolish thing to look for. It is FALSE.

I don't follow.

"Large blood trails and no distance traveled" sounds like diametric opposites.

I do agree that "energy dump" means little when a 22-250 with a varmint bullet is only equal to a heavily loaded 45-70 on paper.

Handguns aren't so different to us who get the "privilege" of using shotgun slugs and their various incarnations on deer sized animals. Even when pressed to become "rifle-like", they all still rely on an amount of bore diameter to function properly and even the most advanced expanding designs have limitations due to range and speed.

The 20 gauge PT Gold load is basically a 260gr. 45 caliber pistol bullet going a lot faster than the hottest 454 Casull. They clock around 1,800 fps from a 24" barrel.

The 12 gauge loading is basically a 385 gr. 50 caliber pistol bullet clocking 1,600 from a 24" barrel.

Both properly placed kill about the same, but the animal's reaction to the larger slug is more pronounced with the 12 gauge loading inside 100 yards, despite it always clocking much slower, IME. Note, from what I've seen they KILL the same.

Despite running faster and expanding, the newer 50 caliber projectiles also don't have anything over the old, defunct wadcutter type BRI 50 caliber sabots and certainly not over the larger, yet even slower Brenneke or Foster types, so far as killing goes.

Once a wound diameter gets to a certain point, quite a lot matters little. I would hedge my bets on actual frontal surface (flat nose, cutting edge), then velocity when it comes to "thump". At the velocities handguns operate at (even the "fastest" ones), excessive hemorrhage and clotting isn't going to occur like we see in rifles simply because even pure lead and high antimony alloys won't shatter; pure lead however, will go mush at the top end impacts, effecting penetration. We also don't have enough speed to rupture (even after cutting) tissue like rifles do with monolithics.

We make up for power with projectile design and bore size, trying to get a long, tubular wound channel with a consistent diameter throughout....

Spot On, Hawk!!!

You nailed it, Hawk!

Thank you for the kind words, Ryan! Much appreciated!

I had to read it twice Hawk but you are right on.
What I meant by large blood trails is they start at the impact point and you don't have to hunt for first blood. If a deer happens to go far, you can find it. The truth is when you find blood at the spot you hit the deer, it does not go far.
A too fast boolit can remove the cutting edge away from tissue with the pressure wave.
The search for pure velocity can be detrimental. The 12 ga slug just works as does a BP round ball. So does a .44 mag work as good as any other caliber.
The whole thing about velocity is to shoot farther and flatter. Not a good choice when deer are 20 yards.
I have dropped deer DRT at 100 yards with a .45 Colt so would a .454 be better? No, it would be better at 200 yards plus or with a much larger animal. But regulating the bullet/boolit will correct all of that.
Bullets have been a problem for years. You would not hunt deer with a 30-06 and armor piercing bullets and long ago a 180 gr was bad. You used a 150 to 165 gr until the 180 was made better.
It will always be the bullet/ boolit, never how fast.
I see posts all the time with guys looking for 1450 to 1500 fps from a .44 and using light bullets. How do you explain that it is wrong? 180 gr hollow points at full velocity is just wrong for deer. It is like a 22-250.
Look at the damage done to a man with a .58 Minie' ball from a rile in the civil war.
I have a real problem with revolver shooters that think any barrel length, any size cartridge, any twist rate, any weight boolit and any velocity will work. Not a single one would consider those funny ideas with a rifle.

A lighter bullet is usually constructed "not as tough" as the heavier bullet, hence it will expand or open easier and more rapid the faster it is pushed.

How would a slower heavier bullet cause more damage? Penetration should be taken out of consideration with.45 cal's on deer sized animal. I fail to see how a WFN of .451 or 2 will do more damage that a HP that has expanded to .750 or so at the same distance/velocity.

Most do fail to see how this is possible. depending on the size and toughness of the game is is very possible and happens consistently

So long as the projectile can handle the pressure of impact and penetration, the faster it goes, the better it works.

There is simply no conversation to the contrary. This is physics, on paper and in practice. Having seen several thousand big to really big animals, including elephant, hippo, rhino buffalo, brown bears, lions, etc etc. killed with every imaginable rifle and bullet combination. There is simply no mistaking the function of velocity into the mix of lethal performance.

458 win mag can be considered a foundation of this principle. Once considered a failure when introduced for various loading problems it was generally accepted to provide about 2000 fps. Far too many issues were involved with this cartridge.

The 458 Lott was born to solve that problem using the same bullet but at 2300-2400 fps. Far more devastating performance. So much so that in many circles it's considered "the standard" back up rifle for Dangerous game in Sub Saharan Africa. Then the 460 weatherby came into the picture which simply crumples the game with an unimaginable force. If Velocity were no issue then simply shooting a light recoiling 1500 fps rifle with the same 500 grain bullet should be sufficient. It's clearly not even close to functional by comparison.

The same can be said with the plethora of 416 cartridges. They get better and better as the velocity increases. I respectfully disagree with you on this velocity does not matter presentation.

It is about the bullet, so long as it has the integrity to handle the pressure. But the faster you drive it, the more trauma you deliver. The 165gr TSX bullet will out perform the 180 gr TSX on all the game we have shot ( many hundreds of them) it's now quickly becoming the standard in 30 caliber rifles regardless of velocity. The performance of that bullet just keeps getting exponentially better the faster you drive it.

I cannot understand why you have seen what your sharing here? It makes no sense at all to the experiences we have seen in the bush. We do however see hundreds of game shot of every size. There is absolutely no debate regarding velocities effects. The reactions and destruction of tissue are directly proportional to velocity.

Is that an explaination? I am using whitetail as an example. You are saying it is possible and it happens consistently which is a contradicting statement.

Your shotgun analogy is not very scientific either as each deer can and sometimes do act different than each other when being shot. Do you have a video showing a ballistic gell. test showing the pressure waves to support a slow/heavy vs. fast/light bullet?

Now, this makes sense and science backs it.

Well I shot a Fallow with a wide me plat hard cast at 1380 FPS from a 500 JRH and removed a 3 to 4 inch section of lungs and this same bullet will break the shoulder support bone on an Asian Buffalo and exit the off side shoulder.

I don't see what I could haver possibly gained with a hollow point

I am talking whitetail and you are talking cape buffalo?

If your fallow deer ran into very thick brush, i would suppose most of us would want the best blood trail, and from what i have seen, the fast HP has the edge.

No i would not use a HP for buffalo. I would want penetration, for whitetail i want expansion.

I used to use a .338WM with a 250gr. speer GS and recovered most deer, but a few got away, i then switched to a 180gr. nosler BT at 300fps faster and it is a night and day difference. Horror show blood trails (when i have to follow one) and it looks like a grenade went off inside the deer.

I have used a WFN with my .454 and lost 2 deer, and have lost another 2 with a 300gr. XTP mag. The only deer i recovered was with a 260gr. hp that has been discontinued (win. platinum tip HP). This is why i am considering going back to the lighter/fasted combo.

You don't need a 50 bmg w/ 750 gr. for deer at 50yds.

For the sake of ballistic accuracy:
The Casull can do 1950 with a 260.

The 500 Smith can do 1750 with a 400 grain bullet.

How about flat shooting and accuracy? Killing a deer at 100 yards, or further out, is left to luck if the gun can't group consistently at that range and not many slug guns (or slug gunners ?) can.

Recently, with a Savage 220 bolt action 20 gauge, I shot two 3 shot groups with Rem Accutips that measured under .7" at 100 yards. The Winchester Dual Bonded were not as good at 1.75" for four shots but I've never had a pump action slug gun that could come anywhere close to even the 1.75" area. 3-4" were always the best I could do before, and you could make a fair bet it would be 6-8 the next time out. In all fairness, I don't KNOW that the Savage will be consistent MOA with Accutips after two 3 shot groups, but more shooting close in (25 & 50 yards) indicate the likelihood is good.

I agree with the overall premise of your post:any shotgun slug can kill just fine.

Newer platforms and ammo, including the more powerful handgun cartridges, in competent hands can can deliver projectiles to target more accurately with more consistancy, and at longer yardage, than our traditional slug guns and ammo are capable of.

My experience does not mirror yours nor JJ's, Ross Sigfried told me that the 416 Rigby worked perfectly at the original 2350 and he saw no need to run it faster. I have seen the lights turned out instantly with a body shot on a mature bull Buffalo with a 180 grain TSX bullet with a body shot and I have seen a black buck run over 200 yards shot with the same combination. Day in and day out in my experience the wide meplat hard casts have killed as well as any combo

I agree with JWP and how rifles got into this I don't know. It was also about deer not elephants.
I have killed deer with everything legal and since going only to revolvers I can only say you can experience anything from lost deer to exploded meat. The revolver can be misused as often as a rifle. It is not magic and follows the same standards.
There is still a stigma over velocity only that does not fit. There is still book ME figures that mean nothing.
Listen to JWP. We have had disagreements, us two. Simple stuff like a primer but he knows about game.
Whitworth knows too. I back them because there is no bull.
You can listen to me too but after way more then about 400 to 420 deer kills (lost count ages ago.) I might not have enough experience. I shot six this season with revolvers of different calibers and can tell you exactly what each did.
I defer to those with one deer kill.

So you averaged killing 10 deer a year for the last 40 years in a row or 8 deer in a row for the last 50 years? If this is the case, then i wonder why you are also chasing bullet performance? I have one handgun kill, but many rifle/muzzleoader kills.

Not saying you don't know your stuff, but if you have a bullet that you know works, why are you trying all kinds of others?

You would rather have a 500 gr. WFP @ 800fps than a 250 gr. HP @ 1600?

You have lost more deer and had a worse bloodtrail with a HP than when using a WFN?

There is no doubt that at the low end of the velocity spectrum you must use hard cast bullets that provide great penetration.

However once you have plenty of penetration better options become available. This is clearly evidenced by the enormous success of the Barnes TSX bullets. They not only penetrate, but they open up causing astonishing trauma.

Prior to that development the partition was the standard. Another bullet that will penetrate and expand.

To my knowledge nobody shooting a firearm with High available velocity chooses to improve killing power by reducing velocity and selecting solids, hard cast, or metal cased bullets.

There is very little that knocks down deer size game then a 25/06 with a high velocity ballistic tip.

JJ, this is exactly my point also. Why own a Ferrari if you only use 1st gear? What would your pick be for a .454 Casull for whitetail deer in a wooded area 50yds and under, the 260gr. partition, the 250gr. XPB (both at 1,750 fps) or the 300gr. XTP mag (1,450 fps)?

There is another thread from the last month on this forum on this topic. I posted some detailed results from damage control operations I ran, and the guiding for bears over more then a decade and several hundred killed. The text in that thread is very relevant to your question. I just don't recall the thread title to search for it.

Yeah Ricky, you're right on the speeds, especially in the longer barrels! The highest maximums are pretty close, although the speeds advertised for the slugs are higher, I've never clocked any that met the "1,900" in 2 3/4 hull. The 3 inchers are another matter....

Yes, the accuracy of the sabots and the rifled barrels have it all over the old Brennekes and Fosters, as well as drop, but as far as the "spectacle" of hitting, the bigger, blunt slugs win. But the deer still die.
The Lightfields and BRI clones seem a good combination of all the good things.

To the OP: I've only had one issue with the 12 gauge PT Gold opening, and it was far beyond the range and the impact speeds you describe; the 20 gauge 260gr slug has always opened up for me and others and perhaps if you drive that same bullet to 1,800 fps in your Casull you won't lose another deer since it has always opened for me.

I used to wind up my 45 Colts as hard as I could lean on them for deer especially with expanding jacketed bullets, but quite honestly I never had any issues even with cast bullets and have been loading them to 1,100 fps or so and they never go far and can always be found. Quite frankly I've never had any bad instances with them; one of my compadres has even used hard cast 180's in his 357 without issue on deer.

I guess another suggestion would be to get a wide hard cast and shoot them lengthwise.....that works well too.

I like JJ's remarks "To my knowledge nobody shooting a firearm with High available velocity chooses to improve killing power by reducing velocity and selecting solids, hard cast, or metal cased bullets."

From what I've seen, the best improvement in killing power is hitting; shooting cheap solids in profusion with loads one can handle has a tendency to produce results totally beyond ego.

j1r11

Here is another thread that shares many of the thoughts involved here. Additional unrelated detail is also there, but some of the information may help you with the choices you are looking for.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._357_magnum_bear_load_bullet#Post7172544

Thanks.

FYI, if a lighter bullet is not constructed as tough, getting the top speed (and the attendant pressures of the 454) is not a good thing. For example, you could use the Speer 250 Gold Dot HP, but it would need to be loaded slower both speed and pressure wise than its thick jacketed 300gr. counterpart.

Some bullets are designed for the 454's top speed pressures, others are not; bullet weight does not matter, since the ass of the bullet gets the pressure and needs to keep its shape, else pressures go nuts.

I think the obvious solution is to trade the Casull for a 460 Smith and go 200 FTX's or 240 XTP's. More speed should fix the issues.....

I am talking about the head not the base.

In the revolvers and especially high pressure calibers Hawk is correct. 3 Year ago a friend shot a deer with a 7 Rem Mag and a NP bullet the bullet entered the left side of the neck and exited the right shoulder breaking it. The deer ran and was not recovered that day. the next day 3 of us went to look for the wounded deer. We found the deer still alive and Chuck finished him. The bullet miraculously hit nothing vital. Hard to believe but true. Shot placement looked good from the entrance and exit, but was not. Not much can be learn about bullet performance unless the wound channel can be observed IME

+1. obviously, velocity is king. 45 colt bullets just bounce off game. You can only cleanly kill game with 3000+ fps projectiles. Its amazing that all the deer I shot with my old 30-30 would fall right there. The 300's I've used didnt kill them any better even though they had 1000+ fps more. I wonder how all you handgun hunters have been killing game with those crazy hadrcast loads. Must be pure luck!

DAMN! I must have had a 45 year long lucky steak!
If I had not read thru this thread, Id never have known......
who knew all those hard cast 44 caliber 270-300 grain,slugs, that were only traveling about 1400fps were just freak accidents, that were supposed to bounce off, rather than punch a hole in one side and go whistling out the other leaving a big old hole, in a very dead deer or hog or elk!!
I guess Ive just been extremely lucky, I should buy a lotto ticket!

gunchamp, 340mag, exactly +1.....

I'm talking about the whole bullet, because a bullet designed to go splat easier is designed to do so at a lower velocity.

Barnes XPB, Nosler Partition and Swift A-Frames are about the only exceptions, yet even some of them have an expansion windows.
I know the Partition isn't the best at the low end...

Those 'are' pretty hot loads for a .44 magnum. Not disputing anything you said, but a 300 at 1400 is pretty stout.

The topic of hand gun projectiles is very much like the 45/70 for dangerous game topic.

There is an almost religious cult trance state for many people. In reading and participating in this thread now I cannot find any reference to condescending posts, no ridicule, no sarcasm nothing like its "my way or the highway "from a single person that is here simply sharing or asking.

Except for posts that are connected in some way to the hardcast bullets which are the answer to all the projectile problems of the world.

I find it a shame that on an open forum where conversations and civil opinions should be shared that so many visitors are put off by this. They don't get involved because they feel uncomfortable about the next guy ripping them with sarcasm and actually just plain rude disrespectful comments.

Lets face it the revolvers 44 mag and bigger will kill a white tail with anything that will fit thru the barrel. I promise you my 44 mag will kill a deer with a .429 piece of wood.

Think about how many of the people who enjoy this place are meant to feel with the condescending posts. I don't really give a rip what people shoot. I'm visiting to share what I have seen personally. Clearly others with various levels of experience have seen this the same, or even completely the opposite. There is no monopoly on what works. It's only a discussion on the options.

I did orchard control in Ohio with unlimited tags. Yes, I killed a lot of deer with everything that can be shot.
Yes, I would take the 800 fps WFN over the faster boolit.
The velocity issue with the WLN and WFN has been recent once I bought revolvers that shot them too fast. I found problems right away because I thought faster was better, my mistake.
When I moved where rifles can be used, I seen more lost deer in the woods and some use rifles way too powerful for deer. The 30-30 is ideal here. 7mm mags and .300 mags lose a lot of deer shot too close. Had a friend that only used the Nosler Ballistic Tip. Half the deer was scrap.
I killed tons of deer with .45 flntlocks, .50 and .54 muzzle loaders and they kill best as does the .44 mag at around 1300 to 1350 fps with a heavy boolit.
The .45 Colt is amazing. It has never failed me.
What you fail to see that it is not the velocity, it is the bullet/boolit choice and the distance you hunt at. With cast you change the alloy and with bullets you use the right one.
But you misquote me too. I never lost a deer shot with the hollow point or light XTP. I seen them go down without any blood trail. I would have lost them in thick brush. Bullets did not exit. I lost deer with a WFN too fast, never when slowed down.
It is 100% wrong to think a bullet that does not exit kills best.
The other side of the coin is to blow a deer to mush and lose all the meat. Just why would you do that?
Here is what a revolver can do.

Yeah, no sarcasm.

I tried to explain what I have had good results with; not that my answers are stone and the next guys is crap.

When greeted with the response of basically "WTF" by a fellow who has basically left several deer to rot, who is asking questions, pardon me if the "correct" answer is he needs more speed and the gun he obviously isn't shooting well kicks even more.

I don't start my posts with how many bears I've shot at close range, so I'm just a guesser.

I don't think the gent is having trouble with the bullets he's currently using, I think he needs to tone it down and shoot more....maybe now I can achieve sainthood.

I lost the photobucket picture again. This site keeps loading forever too. The circle is still spinning.
Nothing is working.

I should have been a bit clearer in that post I use a 10" barrel revolver, so I get a bit better velocity, and 1400 fps is usually the 270 grain bullets but 1300fps is easy with the 300 grain, and if you seat the bullets uot to just short of the cylinder its possible in a 10" barrel 44 mag revolver with cast bullets, without a problem, I can,t remember ever having a slug not exit deer shot thru the chest from my 44 mag revolver, and only remember one huge hog that I shot in the chest that didn,t exit

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun

Spot on again.......

I have killed and continue to kill game very effectively and cleanly with hard cast bullets to the point that I prefer them over jacketed. The meplat and nose is critical to performance IMHO and E

Well, this has been interesting so far. There seem to be some who have had great success with the slow and heavy and lots of penetration school of thought, and others equally successful with the practice of fast and explosive, no need for two holes.
Funny part is, I have had success with both methods with a variety of firearms.
Sad part is, it becomes less an exchange of good information and experience, and more a head-butting contest.

My primary species is elk. Where I live they come into the yard in winter, and I can drive less than an hour from my house and be in elk country in the middle of the summer.
As JJHack said "I promise you my 44 mag will kill a deer with a .429 piece of wood." With dense wood and close archery type of range, I don't doubt he is correct.
I don't care about deer. I would feel comfortable shooting the does that are standing in my driveway right now, with my .45 acp. I am talking BIG game, and started this thread out of curiosity about relative recoil in other big guns.
I think we would all agree that ya gotta hit 'em first... and as the story of the 7 mag neck shot illustrates, we have to hit them where it counts.
So far the .44 mag with 325 gr hardcast bullets is the biggest handgun I have been able to shoot well. My single experience with a 500+ lb black bear seemed to confirm the type of performance I expected; massive, end-to-end penetration resulting in a long and deadly wound channel. It worked very well. I suspect had I been using the 454 with a 260 gr hollow point at high speed, the end result would have been the same for the bear. I'm just not sure if I will be able to shoot the 454 at those high speeds to produce those explosive results, as well as I can shoot a heavier, slower bullet. More shooting will be required to see.
I am currently shooting 30 gr. H110 with 260 gr. hardcast, and recoil seems to be getting close to what I recall it being with the .44 load I mentioned.
According to the manual, I'm still 6 gr. short of a max load!
As someone else said, the .44 seems to be about the ideal combination of enough power for anything I'm going to shoot, and manageable recoil. Starting loads for the Casull, with the 335 gr. hard cast, are identical to the max loads in the .44 mag with 325 gr hard cast. This is a load I have complete confidence in for elk.

Yep.

The discussion about bullet construction for deer hunting often is an exercise in trivia. With adequate ballistics and good shot placement, it's much harder not to kill a deer than it is to kill one.

+1

+2......

bought one of these in 460SW on sunday

Crew served?

I looked at one of those before I bought my FA Casull. It is a pretty cool specialty hand gun, but I thought if I'm going to carry that I might just as well carry a rifle.

Exactly............

I have to try a picture again. I shot this deer in the shoulder with my .44 at 78 yards with a WLN hard boolit.
Skinning had all the meat pulled off and most of the shoulder was ruined.

Now the .460 was made for long range using a lighter bullet. I had a picture a friend sent of a deer he shot in PA at 140 yards with the .460 and factory loads. Picture was lost with a computer failure but he lost half the deer.
The bullet was just too far out of range for expansion. Now a heavy hard WLN or WFN at the velocity would poke a clean hole.
It is important to work with a gun and get the bullet right.

Now this deer was shot with my 45-70 BFR behind the left shoulder but it exited through the right shoulder. I was at .454 velocity with a 420 gr boolit too soft, cast from 50-50 WW's and pure with a hollow point.
The shoulder was ruined and more or less pulled off when I skinned.
Then I shot one with a hard WFN, it went 100 yards before I found blood and went over 200 yards. It was hit about the same.
That is why I say you need to work with the boolit. The revolver can do as much damage as a magnum rifle or fail too.
I am still not right with this gun so I did not hunt with it this season. The 300 gr Hornady worked best so far. But I like cast.

I would say in my experience the .45 LC or the .454 Casull will kill somewhat better than the 44 Mag when loaded to the same recoil level.

In other words if we use the WLN or WFN cast bullet we have a meplat that is 0.090 under bullet diameter. The large meplat on the .45 will slightly increase wound diameter and slightly decrease penetration.

As we have way more than enough penetration with the .45 giving some up for a larger wound channel (when both cartridges are loaded to the same recoil levels) is a good trade.

I find the WLN in the heavy .45 LC or .454 Casull produces a wound channel very similar in appearance and terminal effect to the 30-06 using the 180gr X bullet. Nothing dramatic, just very effective.

A good place to discuss "hard" cast and I have grown to hate the term just like "BHN" for a boolit.
It is alloy toughness for top accuracy in your gun. Boolits too hard can shatter. Many softer alloys can shoot very well but I get fliers with wrong things. A 50-50 alloy does well with a gas check but not a PB, too much skid past the base. The gas check is only to halt base skid and stop gas leakage but you can exceed it and lead the barrel. That means if you shoot too fast you need to toughen the boolit.
I found water dropped WW metal shoots as good as any but air cooled brings in fliers again. Softer should be oven hardened and it DOES NOT CHANGE EXPANSION. You do not change the alloy but just harden the surface for a better grip to rifling.
Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit. A small change in the meplat from a WLN to a WFN has very little affect. At the right veocity the WFN does more damage but too fast even makes it fail. Shooting a WFN faster is just not the answer. It will actually WIDEN the secondary wound channel.
One thing never thought of is lungs are also full of air and reduces hydraulic force applied until you have so much energy it compresses all the air. There is a huge difference between revolvers and rifles. Yet the revolver can be as destructive.
Energy is always needed inside an animal and you need to control where it is applied, not on the surface or beyond the animal. That also depends on the size and toughness of the animal. Deer might be the hardest in getting the energy in the right place. Two holes are always best even if the bullet falls out the other side after doing it's job. Yet a good boolit can do extreme damage even if it also kills 3 deer after passing through the first.
The worst thing to do is to try and compare a round ball muzzle loader to an arrow, revolver and a modern rifle, each works within it's parameters and needs different bullets/boolits. Even a super fast, light arrow with a tiny broad head will lose animals. Modern archers are nuts!

I'm trying to find a way to not take this out of context, but I'm struggling to see how you intended this phrase?

"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."

In general terms, not specific to handgun, hard cast, arrows, rifles, slingshot, anything and everything that can be launched. Velocity increase adds to tissue destruction. I cannot ever in my whole professional career remember where anything I have examined after being shot looked less damaged with lower velocity.

Roy Weatherby was the pioneer in High velocity cartridges. Then the addition of countless competitors also trying to keep up with the success of those high velocity cartridges. Nobody shooting a 30/06 or 308 aspired to move up to the 30-30, they moved up to a 300 magnum.

An Arrows penetration is heavily improved from arrow weight, but with low velocity it's effective use is limited when compared to a lighter arrow at twice the speed.

My use, and personal witnessing every sort of bullet you can imagine on game shows that the faster they go the more damage and penetration they have. Including handgun loads. How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?

I cannot buy that statement about velocity. The same bullet driven faster penetrates more. With the exception of highly frangible varmint or self defense bullets. The faster they go the more tissue is moved at higher speeds.

I will agree to disagree, no point in a debate on this. I've done this for my living for far to long and seen the results over and over.

Velocity if applied. Energy applied. Put it in the wrong place and it does no work.
The 30-30 can totally destroy a deer while a .300 mag can poke a hole with the wrong bullet.
What you mix up with the .45 vs the .454 is the bullet itself. Yes the .454 is more powerful but the wrong bullet does not make it better. Get the right match and both kill.
It is the bullet/boolit or arrow/arrow. Fast, light arrows stop faster in game and lose penetration and I don't care if you go over 300 fps, penetration suffers.
Energy or cutting kills but where do you put each. A fast light arrow can stop on a deer shoulder while a slower heavy arrow will go all the way through. Leave the arrow out for now.
A very fast bullet can expend all in inches while a slow one plows through.
The reason to go faster in a rifle is to shoot farther, flatter. NOT to kill deer better at 50 yards. The 30-06 is too much.
Penetration always comes up but you can't dispute facts, boolit weight improves it.
This is a 16" tree I shot through with a 335 gr boolit at 1160 fps from a .45 Colt. It also cut the huge grape vine and I could not find the boolit in the ground.
Would a light, fast, quick expanding bullet from a .454 do that?
Would a 50 gr bullet from a .220 swift at 4100 fps go through a buffalo?
But back to arrows too light and fast. I found these in deer's chests while gutting them. I gave a deer away and another was found in it. They were healed in and the deer were healthy. Toy arrows shot too fast.
Would an 800 fps bullet from a .45 kill better then a 1600 fps from a .454? YES if the wrong bullet is used.

Lets move on to the .475 linebaugh. We shot a line of gallon jugs, 14 if I remember. 4 were blown sky high, 2 more split and the boolit went through all 14 jugs.
Then a deer heart shot with the same hard cast at the right velocity at 50 yards.
Would a .300 Weatherby do better?

To simplify this and try and keep from getting all tangled up like a bowl of spaghetti
The phrase I read in your post was:

"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."

My reply:

How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?

My point is velocity matters by a significant margin YMMV

I've shot the 454 and the 475 out of the 4 3/4" bbl. Freedom Arms, and always thought the 454 had a snappier (more torque)recoil than the 475 did. I guess some people have different perspectives on recoil.

Okay, I'll take a stab at it. Given your example above, of course, I must agree. At some point however, dead is dead, and enough is enough. My South African friend has shot quite of bit of plains game and is an avid reloader (in spite of the difficulty of doing so currently). He told me that an impact velocity of 2200-2400 was considered optimal for large dangerous game there. Any more was considered undesireable. I realize this conclusion may be based on the physics of bullet failure, and stuff like Barnes X's may render this conclusion false, but wouldn't the same principal apply to a cast lead bullet, at some point?

Exactly and a very good post. It always comes down to the bullet no matter the velocity. High velocity is a proven killer until the bullet fails.
I wish fellas would consider this with a revolver, it is the same as a rifle but in a different bracket.
I was one of those long ago with my first .44 in 1956. I would blow a jug of water and catch a bullet in one or two more jugs. We could not hunt deer with them at the time but I thought they would really bust a deer. It was proven false once I could use the gun on deer. Once worked out, the .44 is a wonderful deer killer. It just might be the very best.
Yes, I like the large calibers too but each has problems to work out.
Revolver shooters seem to look for speed while ignoring the bullet. Can an 800 fps bullet kill as good as one at twice the speed, darn sure. It is what you shoot.
A .460 Weatherby can be tailored to shoot deer to T Rex. But would you use the same bullet?

I would not hesitate to shoot deer with the same load/bullet I would use for T Rex. More than needed, but that stout bullet is going to punch a perfectly good hole in said buckskin... and kill him!
I would not, however, use my deer load on Mr. T.

Sorry, just gotta stir the pot a little. (grin)

The "significant margin" applies primarily to expanding bullets and bullets that deform. Its also why some expanding bullets fail and in handguns have too narrow of an expansion window for a "handgun hunter" that shoots from the muzzle beyond a hundred yards. That's why some cast their own and use solids or make their own expanding cast handgun bullets.

How can anyone argue? Well, people apparently can't, but everyone here has probably at one time or another shot something with a ballistic pipsqueeks and then had mathematically superior cartridges cause ten times more carnage, yet the critter ran forever. Some people have seen this happen more than once.

What bfr is saying is that he can make a 30/30 do the damage of a 300 Winchester on deer with a jacketed bullet by using different alloys of cast in the 30/30, used within its range and velocity limits. He's not saying it IS a 300 Winchester....

Lead and lead alloys go splat easier than copper and gilding metal. It stands to reason it requires less velocity to do similar things when making expanding bullets.

"Velocity adds to tissue destruction" Yeah, so does softer metal.

YMMV......

Here is the post again, with the most critical part in red!

To simplify this and try and keep from getting all tangled up like a bowl of spaghetti
The phrase I read in your post was:

"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."

My reply:

How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?

My point is velocity matters by a significant margin YMMV

There is nobody that I have read from in this thread, that questions a solid bullet penetrating better then a soft hollow point. That however was not part of the original quote. It simply said as I have cut and pasted exactly that Velocity does not matter.

I think it was clear as written in my reply that velocity makes all the difference in penetration when the same bullet is shot faster. NEVER.... NOT ONCE..... NOT A SINGLE TIME...... did I compare a solid to a HP.???

If this is still somehow complicated, then just carry on without me. It's impossible to converse on this topic any further.

There is an almost religious cult trance state for many people. In reading and participating in this thread now I cannot find any reference to condescending posts, no ridicule, no sarcasm nothing like its "my way or the highway "from a single person that is here simply sharing or asking.

Except for posts that are connected in some way to the highest velocity bullets which are the answer to all the projectile problems of the world.

I'm no HG guru but I believe my FA 454 Casull firing the 335 gr Cast Performance WFNGC at 1585 fps would be equally as effective, and may penetrate a bit deeper, than my 500 S&W firing the same style bullet of 440 grs at 1365 fps.

Both would have to be extremely formidable on game animals.

Gunner

Of course, you of all people already knew this.







My apologies to the OP......

Maybe, maybe not! It needs tested. However both have much more then enough penetration.
I can only relate what I have seen with hard boolits. My 45-70 BFR shoots a 317 gr WLN at 1632 fps---close to the .454. I lost two deer with perfect hits, recovered some that went 200 yards. Nice clean hole through both lungs that were still pink. I made a heavier WFN mold at 378 gr. It did exactly the same thing on deer, 200 yards or more to recover.
My .45 Colt with the 335 gr LBT puts down deer FAST at 1160 fps.
Penetration is not the issue at all, it is the hard lead shot too fast.
The 335 LBT in the .454 at 1585 fps indeed has penetration, however I would back up to impact and exit on a deer.
I have become a believer in what is called the "DWELL" theory. you need energy applied just right or it is like shooting a target arrow through a deer. Just a hole is not enough.
The .454 can do it all on any game for sure but it is still the action of the bullet, boolit for the size of the animal.
I leave out CNS or spine hits for a reason, not easy and most with a revolver can not do it. It is like a guy killing one deer and telling everyone what works.
It is sad but only animals tell the true tale.
If you lose a deer with a good hit, it is not you, the gun or velocity, it was the bullet you used.
I will leave it there and let you fellas hash it out.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around too much velocity being a problem with cast bullets. The idea flies in the face of my experiences. No problem with the factors involved in the construction of different bullets, but I just can't see that a hard cast bullet at 45 Colt velocities is going to be more deadly than the same bullet at 454 Casull speeds. In my experience a properly place bullet is going to kill the beast, assuming it is a reasonable bullet for the job. Not talking something like trying to kill elk with a .223, in spite of the fact the native alaskans have been killing all kinds of stuff with them for years.

Cast bullets are material limited. They simply cannot handle high velocities. You can easily exceed their limitations by driving them too fast. When you degrade the nose of a flat-nosed cast bullet, you hinder its penetrative potential. If you cast them too hard, they can be too brittle, too soft, they can deform. I have on many occasions seen slower cast bullets out penetrate faster ones, because they do not deform upon contact and maintain their nose shape and integrity.

Lack of penetration from the high-velocity 45-70 doesn't seem to be the "problem" that bfrshooter is referring to?

That's true for jacketed bullets as well (excluding FMJs or other types not designed to expand). Energy (also known by some as "mythical energy")can be used for penetration, expansion, or a combination of both. In bullets designed for hunting there's always a tradeoff; bullets that don't expand as much will tend to penetrate more and vice versa.

Sure, but jacketed expanding bullets are designed to open. If a flat-nosed hardcast bullet's nose deforms significantly, you're probably pushing it to fast. The problem for me with many jacketed expanding bullets is inconsistent performance. I have had them work well one day, and fail miserably the next. I prefer more predictable performance, which is what I get with hardcast bullets with wide meplats at moderate velocities. JMHO.

Hawk, I very politely and articulately asked to understand the meaning of the single sentence in that post.

There was no "pot stirring" it simply was unclear and quite frankly still is the way it is written. No part of your paragraph of explanation was involved in that single sentence.

It was not taken out of context, it was a stand alone statement without any preceding data that was edited out.

I made one simple, logical, articulate easy to read and understand statement. When two identical bullets are shot from the same gun the faster one works better.

If this is not as simple and easy to understand as possible, or you have a difference of opinion on this that's fine with me. I don't care if you shoot dirt clods or wooden dowel rods out of your gun. It simply matters not to me what anyone shoots or prefers! Plenty to go around for all of us!

I very strongly prefer hard cast flat nose bullets for some applications, and hollow point bullets for others. I don't have a cult status to follow on this. It's not a "ford or chevy" question here. I have no income from a bullet maker that guides my choices. I pick what works best. I shot about 200 Hard cast bullets today from a .45 and about 50 XTP's from a .44 mag revolver. By that measure I shoot 4 times as many hard cast!

The most common application to use a Hard cast bullet is trying to get a bit more lethal penetration from a gun that may not have the power to drive a HP bullet deep enough. When power is plentiful then the HP bullets work with astonishing success. When power is on the edge, then I prefer the harder "solid" deeper penetrating bullets. The Penetration of a hard lead bullet can exceed much more powerful cartridges shooting soft HP bullets. But if they both shoot the same bullet, the faster one will cause more trauma and deeper penetration except in the most unusual situations where other factors are involved.

Just seems a shame that folks visiting and reading this stuff might believe from that post that a slower bullet is some how superior to another of identical construction ( as stated previously, not including varmint or frangible styles)

I even put this in Red text above to help with the point that was confusing. There was never any mention of identical bullets, or different kinds of bullets in his original post. It was simply that velocity does not matter? Well it does to me and the laws of Physics, YMMV

It does get hard to explain. More velocity does indeed cause more damage but with the wrong boolit can actually impede penetration, not the point here because deer are small and do you need 50" of penetration?
Disregard boolit nose damage for a second and start to think of the pressure wave I tried to explain and it's shape off the nose at all velocities.
Whitworth said it best with "moderate" velocities. We just do not need more penetration then they afford for deer, larger animals are different but you can still reach the point the boolit will be degraded. That will change direction of a boolit.
Figure it like this with the pressure wave, larger animals slow a boolit so the wave folds back putting more tissue into contact with energy. Expanding bullets do exactly the same thing. That is the very reason you use different bullets from a rifle for the size of the animal. Your moose bullet is not the same as you would use for deer. Your bullet for Cape Buffalo is going to be different then for deer.
Today we have revolvers that shoot from 800 fps to extreme rifle velocities but being a revolver, many think the same bullet/boolit will work.
I would so like to have you think of projectile construction first, not just velocity. Think of where in any animal the energy is applied.

How does the Garret Cartridges .44 Magnum load of a 330-gr SuperHardCast Long Hammerhead at 1400-fps hold up when shot into game animals...anybody?

Ive only used that load twice (mostly because its expensive)and I only bought a single box just to test it out.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.html and the recoils very noticeable,
but I found it to do nothing on large hogs that the
(standard load I use most of the time)
of a 300 grain lee or lyman bullet over 20 grains of H110 didn,t already do, which is punch in one side and out the other and kill the hog in short order.
now on something much larger , like bison,Im confident it would have advantages, but on deer,hogs or even elk I doubt it will.
Why? the standard loads Ive used for decades do the job and exit.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/51...0-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/50...meter-300-grain-semi-wadcutter-gas-check

I believe the manufacturer reports that it is common for that particular 44 Magnum Hammerheads so shoot through both shoulders of a broadside elk, shoot lengthwise to the hips on a frontal shot grizzly, and shoot through and through lengthwise on large deer and boar. But, I also believe the manufacturer reports that it is not common to find handgun shooters with enough skill and experience to handle this cartridge as it overwhelms most with its excessive recoil. Don't think many factory guns can handle it either.

Wonder how a SuperHardCast Long Hammerhead in a .454 Casull at maximum velocity/pressure would hold up when shot into game animals?
Would an extra 200 feet per second make that much difference on the bullet itself?

Those are buffalo or elephant loads. They will be hole pokers on deer.

Didn't think that was an option. Thought the bullet was designed for a specific COL 45 Colt.

I was just curious about bullet performance if someone loaded their own...

From JB Young of crater bullets.I have shot allot of these out of my 45-70 and 454 Casull.

[quote][Soon after hearing the Beiters' successful hunting with the 550 grain Crater, I received the following e-mail from a customer in South Dakota who did extensive tests with the 420 grain Crater Lite in his Marlin 1895 45/70 22 inch barrel gun.

" I shot a 2400 pound range bull (livestock) at 47 paces or around 50 yards with a load I worked up with your 420 gainers. The load is xx grs. of Alliant #7 compressed using 210 Fed primer. The load averaged 2097 fps. in 10 shot string, and shot under an inch at 100 yards. The rifle is zeroed at 175 yards shooting 4.2 inches high at 100 yards. The bullet entered the left side of the 2400 pound bull crushing the left and right shoulder joints tearing 3 inch hole though the top of the lungs and exited skipping along its happy way though the S.D prairie. The bull in an instant of impact dropped to the ground, made a slight effort to return to its feet and died. I shot the wet newspaper at 100 yards which was stacked 6 feet thick and got complete penetration."

This customer says the 2400-pound domestic bull is a lot bigger and has more heavy shoulder bone and muscles than that of its wild cousins such as Cape Buffalo and Water Buffalo which has an average weight of 1600 pounds. This customer adds that when the Crater Lite is pushed above 2000 fps, it achieved only 3 feet penetration at 100 yds. However, when he reduces the load velocity to 1600 fps, the Crater Lite punched through the 6 feet thick wet newspaper at 100 yds.

After experiencing this kind of phenomenal penetration power on the 2400-pound range bull and the 6 feet wet newspaper penetration tests, this customer exclaims, " What can you ask for more?"quote]

Jayco

I reckon' those holes would kill em'...?

I guess this question applies to anyone who can answer it, but how about hard lead jacketed bullets? For example, Sierra makes a .429" 300 grain jacketed bullet. The lead contains 6% antimony and Sierra says its the hardest bullet they make. Would the jacket help to keep the bullet from fragmenting at higher velocities?

"Those are buffalo or elephant loads. They will be hole pokers on deer." - bfrshooter


I'd suspect that they would be outstanding, if the shooter can manage the recoil and place (an) accurate shot(s), it should do the trick on a head on full frontal shot through the skull of the largest bear. But, there are guys with more bear experience than I who have decades of experience with that shot and they prefer smaller chamberings with far less recoil to better facilitate accuracy and follow ups on a frontal shot. That camp argues that you only need enough gun and bullet to penetrate through the skull to reach vitals and at least one of those guys used nothing more than a 357 for decades as a professional guide in AK. IIRC, that same gun has been used for the last 30+ years.

It always kills them but can you find them?

I never looked. Aren't some sort of hard cast, long bullets available for the .454?

I shoot both cast and jacketed out of my. 454 Casull and 45-70 revolver. In the .454 I am a huge fan of XTP bullets. The XTP magnum is almost indestructible even in the 1700 fps category and the regular XTP at about 1300 fps is a joy to shoot and quite deadly still.

XTP bullets gets my vote out of revolvers especially the .454.

That's what I shoot out of mine. I don't load them though...they are the Hornady factory load...300 grain XTP at 1650 feet per second. They're pretty hot. I would think I'd be good to go with that...

I'd simply ask the manufacturer for the ideal fps velocity range of the particular bullet you question. That would be simple enough. If it is designed to expand, you'd then have a good ideal of the minimum and maximum velocities so to keep the loadings within the guardrails. As far as I'm concerned, I choose a bullet to meet my prefered needs for the intended game. In some hunting situations, like my 44 that is used to hunt deer, I like and want an expanding bullet that will open up to some degree on a through the lungs broadside hit. Same bullet, I don't want it to totally trash itself if I'm on the ground and elect to take a deep quartering away shot aimed to exit the far shoulder. When loading, I keep my velocities within that range. On the other hand, I'll do a lot of backcountry activities such as fly fishing in bear country. Using my 45 Colt as an example, I chose this chambering because it is easier for me to accurately manage than something larger like the .454s and such. The bullet I chose to meet my prefered needs for this situation is a wide flat nosed hard cast with enough frontal weight so that the ass end doesn't attempt to pass the head when the bullet hits hard bone. I keep the velocity range of this load to give it enough horsepower to shoot straight through the skull of a head on bear while being slow enough that the bullet stays intact so it travels deep.

I know from experience that the later will punch a hole through a deer from just about any angle, but I still prefer the former when dedicated to hunting deer. There are ample examples of the former being used to defeat large bears on frontal shots, but I still prefer a bullet that improves the odds of travelling straight when impacting a heavy round skull.

1,400 fps is not necessarily too fast and consider what the velocity will actually be at impact. 1,400 is at the muzzle.....

The point I am trying to make is that if you use a given hardcast bullet in .45 Colt at a MV of 1,300 fps, and load the very same bullet in your Casull and run it up another 400 fps, I will make a wager that more often then not, the .45 Colt will penetrate better.

If someone feels the need to run the highest velocities possible and still desires uncompromised straight-line penetration, I would suggest the Punch bullet or the CorBon Penetrator. They are essentially glorified flat-nosed hardcast bullets without the material limitations.

Some food for thought on cast versus jacketed and damage done. Just recently we had two deer down, both about the exact same size and they both ran almost exactly the same distance, about 30 yards and both shots and angles were all but the same.

First with a 30-06 using 180 grain Corelokts and the other with the 45-70 using a 420 grain cast bullet. Which did more damage?

The cast bullet hit a rib and blew bone all over the place causing minor meat damage, the 180 grain corelokt caused zero meat damage.

That old saying with cast bullets that you can east right up to the hole isn't always true.

Jayco

Jayco, I have personal experience on a grand total of one large doe shot with a 45-70 using a +P handload with a wide metplate cast bullet. The results were extensive damgage and bloodshot meat greater than I ever expected. Only a sample of one, but in comparison, I've shot a number of deer when I was managing kill permits using 150 and 180 flat based bullets out of a 270 and '06 loaded to standard velocities. I don't recall a single deer killed with those combinations that had an alarming amount of excessive damage and blood shot meat. When killing deer for meat on the table, my benchmark is shooting through both lungs over the heart while having a clean kill and saving the heart for table fare. If the combination tends to jellify the heart and contents within the chest cavity, I avoid that combination. But, I believe centerfire rifles afford more room for cast/jacketed bullets to work due to the greater velocities compared to handguns. With the slower velocities of handguns, it becomes more challenging to engineer jacketed pistol bullets to perform well within such a narrow range of speed. Trying to have a bullet that opens up at low speeds while not busting up at muzzle velocities, especially if striking bone.

This is my take.

The ones I've measured with a hardness tester (the 300 gr. .429 SP and the 300 gr. .451) measured from 5-7 BHN. The best I can figure is that they are either pure lead or the jacket has a considerable amount of void/space to allow the core to slump.


Having used many Sierra bullets, I don't think bullet concentricity is the issue.

If you know what ranges/impact speed the bullet is known to expand or not blow apart, testing them on media or feral animals at those given scenarios, you'll have a much better insight beforehand.

While we all love our bulletmakers, realize they are also part PR/advertisers and mass produce bullets as economically as possible.

I have used the .45 .451 300gr. on deer from 75-80 yards to less than ten. I never had any fragmentation noted in the wound and never recovered the 4 bullets. The loads clocked at 1,300 fps from a 7.5 inch barrel.

Totally agree.

Also note, as caliber and/or frontal area increase, the velocity amount for a given hardness and alloy to deform is less.

Cast versus jacketed has been around in hunting handguns forever,mainly because there were no jacketed bullets that would penetrate at lower velocities like cast do. Today it is different with the new hot rods there.

If you want a bullet not to expand and do the extra damage, shoot cast in the lower velocity hunting handguns. If you want to do the most damage to the game for a quicker kill, use a quality jacketed bullet at a higher velocity..

Which is more deadly, a tsx that doesn't expand or a nosler or an a-frame that does in the same diameter, exit or not?

Pistols are no different.

Jayco

Not necessarily. The expanding bullet may make a bigger hole initially but may not go deep -- especially at the subdued velocity.

Handguns are different by virtue of the fact that they cannot achieve velocities anywhere near typical rifle velocities. Treating a revolver like a rifle is a mistake. It's more of a long range punch press, to quote John Linebaugh.

I think expanding bullets work great on smaller and/or thin-skinned game.

What is your opinion of the Hornady factory load I've previously mentioned...the 300 grain XTP at 1650 fps from a .454 Casull?

quick story some of you might appreciate.
when I was about 23 years old I purchased my first 8 3/8" 44 mag S&W revolver I quickly found I needed to polish the chambers because several were a tiny bit rough, but a few seconds with a bit of jewelers rouge on a dowel and a hand held drill removed the minor burrs, and I went out and practiced a great deal slow firing double action at first but eventually building the skill and accuracy to do far better with time, so that when hunting season opened I was ready to go hunting for some of the rather large wild hogs that were tearing up much of the management area we hunt near my home.
Id purchase a 280 grain 44 caliber mold and we had found a decent load using about 16 grains of 2400 powder.
about 8 am on the opening day I was sitting in a tree stand on one edge of a long power line right of way clearing that was about 300 yards across and a friend was in a similar tree stand on the other side of the clearing.
I see him stand up and take aim with his Remington 12 ga pump and fire off three quick shots then he starts yelling he thinks he just killed a huge hog.
I get down to go look carrying my 44 revolver, I get about half way across the field which is mostly waist high grass and I see the grass parting like a boat wake as several large hogs are running in my direction, directly away from his location.
I don,t know if this one hog was charging me or running from ,my friend but he was heading at a fast run directly at me, but due to the tall grass I could only see the grass moving like a boat bow wake until he got into about 20 feet, , I fired and a hog that easily weight 200 lbs dropped instantly.
a close examination showed a couple buckshot creased this hogs butt, and there was two holes from the front, one entered the head and exited the chest, a second hit between the shoulders and exited the belly.
I opened the revolver to find Id fired it twice without realizing it.
from that time On I was hooked on close range large caliber revolver hunting.

What a wonderful revolver, the 8-3/8" S&W.
Yes my friend, a big revolver is a great thing.
Great story.

Uh, not really.

Jacketed bullets were created first to allow the ammo companies a way to get around leading in magnum revolvers and feeding issues in autos, since "hardened" lead was basically lead/tin.

Halfway reliable expansion with jacketed bullets in handguns was many years and miles later. Bear in mind getting a reliable jacketed bullet from a powerful rifle didn't show up until 1948.

If you really want to do some damage with a handgun, lead alloys will provide it, at the high end or the lowest end, but its not a "one size fits all" proposition like many folks demand.

Like so many things, getting the best things in life isn't always about money, but its always about work and effort....

What caliber and velocity would you say caused that mushroom? Also, what game,shot placement and distance? Can i buy that for a .454/

That was paper, 750 fps at impact 300gr 45 caliber, 10 feet away.

This was 30 yards, 1,500 fps impact (estimate) 50 caliber. Recovered in right rear hip of a deer shot in the brisket; recovery being an anomaly (Only one ever recovered.



You can make them, as many as you want.

In an earlier post here there is a claim made by a man that shot "crater" bullets through a stack of 6 feet of wet newsprint at 100 yards.

While I'm not claiming this is a "lie" I would sure like to understand more of this event. I've shot through a lot of stuff in my life especially when I first got my 458 Lott. I rather doubt that my 458 Lott could shoot through 6 feet of wet newsprint at 100 yards. Wet.... damp? News print can be very difficult to penetrate in length. It tends to stack and compress very well. I don't think I have ever shot through even three or 4 feet with a rifle. Maybe I have heavy duty news print here?

This guy claims he did this with a 420 grain bullet at 1600fps from a 45/70.

My 458 Lott was shooting 2300 with a 500 grain bullet. Even the solid tungsten bullets would not likely go through 6 feet of stacked news print. I'm not sure anything you can fire from the shoulder will! Now maybe there was some kind of placement of the paper that was unique, or wet to the point of pulpy paper or other unknowns.

I guess the point I'm making here is that " If you read it on the internet it must be true right?"

Something way fishy about a story like that and it does nothing to improve the credibility of the rest of the story which may actually be accurate. I tend to throw the whole set of ideas out the window when there is such a high level of simply unbelievable content.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

This is a 350 44.cal WLN (softnosed) from a 445 SuperMag. It runs the bullet about 1,250 from the muzzle; this deer was hit at a lasered 125 yds., so the impact speed was around 1,000 fps. By all accounts, it opened up.

Entrance

Exit

Of course I just enjoy making my own bullets and testing them out and since we butcher our own stuff, the autopsies that go with it.

If anyone wants to "not claim as a lie", but finds my "stories" fishy or has any issues to the veracity of my statements and desires a witness, please do so....

I want a bullet to mushroom like this out of my .454 on deer up to 50 yds. Is that possible, if so, what FPS would i have to load it to? Also, i have to cast it, there is no where to buy it?

You may want to get some of these calibers and try some testing yourself before you claim others may be lying. Penetration within that slower velocity range has been documented time and again. A 45/70 will out penetrate a 458 win mag. I have a copy of American rifeman where a guy took a marlin 45/70 after cape buffalo. Using the garret load(relatively slow velocity), he shot through the first Buff and hit a econd almost completely pentrating that one too. Both buff were cleanly taken. High velocity kills game, but so does low velocity. High velocity is not a magic slayer of animals.

And what does yuor post tell you? Maybe the guy isnt lying and that higher velocity doesnt penetrate further after all.

Hope everyone here has a very merry Christmas!!!!

That was Brian Pierce in Rifle magazine.

I shot a moose once with my .500 Linebaugh -- 500 grain bullets at 1,200 fps (from the muzzle). All shots over 100 yards, all exits and the impact velocity was somewhere around 1,100 fps if that. There is no lack of penetration even at relatively low velocities.

Oh, and Merry Christmas back at 'ya!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE.

Gunner

Yep, Merry Christmas, gents.

Even the 45/70 "cult" and "fishy" people....(grins)

btw Ive done a fair amount of testing bullets shooting them into various back stop mediums.
Id point out that its been my experience that a 44 mag has has limitations with bullets heavier than the 300-310 grain range simply because the cylinder length limits loaded cartridges over all length, and barrel twist rates in some guns that limit how heavy you can go on bullets.
the 300 grain lee and lyman bullets are about the max length that you can load before the bullet volume crimped below the case mouth begins to restrict useable powder space with the slower pistol powders.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/51...0-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/50...meter-300-grain-semi-wadcutter-gas-check

EXAMPLE
ive purchased and tested both these NEI designs and while they have proven to be effective in the longer case 445 dan wesson super mag, they can,t be loaded to enough velocity to markedly out perform the slightly lighter designs in penetration or accuracy ,I linked to above in a 44 mag in my experience.
they do work rather well in the larger 445 dwsm, but not to the extent I feel they pose any huge advantage.


http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

The very hardest thing for me is when anyone wants more velocity from their gun. "How much pressure?" Many want a .44 special at over .44 mag. Same with those that want a .45 Colt at .454 levels. They move to a .460. It is a velocity syndrome like rifle shooters. Until you realize it is DISTANCE not what you need at 50 yards or under will you get it right.
All calibers work but some things are not needed where you hunt. The .44 special is just fine as is the .44 mag.
I just can't run down what anyone shoots but please tailor what you shoot for distance and the size of the animals.
It is up to you to find what works.
340mag made some good comments on twist rates and it is 100% true. Yet I shoot a 330 gr WLN of my making from a home made mold from my .44 mag that kills deer like a hammer and it fits the Rugers with space to spare. It has a long nose with less in the powder space. It also matched the ogive close to the forcing cone angle. It has shot 1-5/16" at 200 yards. No more velocity is needed.
Why is it so hard to see that you need to make your bullet/boolit work at how fast you shoot?

Bringing this thread back from the dead because i have sold my .454 and switched to a 629 Smith 44 mag 8". I need some help with choices on bullets.

I want to kill whitetail deer under 50yds with open sights. My past has not been good with bloodtrails with HP bullets in .454, so that's why i am looking at Cast FP's.

Please critique my choices here and which should do the best job for what i have in mind. All will be handloaded.

1) 240 gr XTP (had a bunch of these loaded already @ 1300 fps.)

2) http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=CP44%2F255PB

3) http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=CP44%2F300

4) http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/details.php?id=91

5) http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/details.php?id=90

I am trying to understand this wide meplat thing. The Cast Performance 255 gr. has a .350 as opposed to everyone's .340.

Am i better off with a heavy 300 gr. with a .340 meplat or a lighter 255gr. with a .350 meplat? I can load them to whatever velocity would be best.

I realize shot placement is everything, but i need a bloodtrail as i hunt in thick northeast woods.

One side note--the very first bullet i tried in my old .454 was a 300gr. win. JFP. This bullet gave me the best bloodtrail and reaction (deer fell down) then got up and walked away (could not get another shot). I lost the blood trail after 300 yards in a snowstorm, but found the deer another 100yds away the next morning.

I switched bullets because i thought with such a big bullet the deer should not have gone far. That got me trying hollow points at faster/slower velocity's, now i am beginning to thing i need to come back to FP's.

Thanks in advance.

I have only shot 480Rugers

very nice to shoot

but I have only shot hot 325g bullets not the 400s

Snake

The thing with handguns is you can choose either a large dia shallow wound i.e. a hollowpoint and no exit, or a smaller dia deeper wound i.e. cast bullet in and out.

Honestly I don't think you'll see a significant difference in killing power between a 250 and 300 gr cast bullet at 1000-1200 fps. They'll punch a hole clean through with a ~1 1/2 to 2 inch diameter wound channel. The animal will lay down and die in time. If you really want to anchor the animal then take out some bone.

As far as meplats, the larger dia meplats will disrupt slightly more flesh but you might find for peak accuracy it's easier to work up a load with a smaller dia meplat.

I have had only 1 bloodtrail out of 6 deer shot with hollowpoints, all of which were pass throgh's. The problem is the HP is not expanding. I shot a dead deer through both scapulas @30 yds with my 454 that i proped up against a tree after i killed it with my rifle ( used shoulder's for trapping bait)and the XTP went right through into the tree. I dug it out and it still was not mushroomed.

I tried to shoot the XTP into water jugs, but after the 5th jug, the bullet took a right turn and i could not find it.

I would use the 260 gr WFN LBT cast by Montana Bullet Works and run it at 1100 fps or so. No mushroom needed with that large meplat. The bullet will pass though from about any angle at 50 yards. The deer might run a bit but it will die in seconds if hit right.

The same design bullet weighing 275 gr cast by CPBC many years ago weighing passed through this guy a few years ago at 40 yards. He dropped after a few leaps. Muzzle velocity was 1,100 fps.

Your problem will be the ability of the 629 to handle 300 gr + boolits. Recoil can damage the gun. I would say 265 gr is tops. It is not velocity or pressure in the S&W, it is heavy recoil with parts inertia.
A good 265 gr like the Ranch Dog and a decent meplat at around 1300 to 1350 fps will be where it is at.
I find no difference between a WLN, WFN or RNFP.
The 429421 Keith under 1400 fps will work. Water dropped WW boolits work.
Once you shoot too fast you can go to maybe 75% WW's and 25% pure lead but water drop them.
The Ruger can shoot heavy but I top out at 330 gr for accuracy with the 1 in 20" twist. The Lee 310 gr is golden cast with WD, WW's. Either will mess up deer with short runs and huge blood trails. These boolits might be too heavy for a S&W. I never shot the enhanced S&W. The gun needs a harder unlocking pin in the center of the cylinder and a stronger cylinder lock spring. After that, you can shoot heavy boolits.
The .44 is perfect as long as you don't look for 1500 fps or use light explosive bullets. The 300 gr XTP will work (NOT THE MAGNUM BULLET.)
I would go with the 265 gr and put 22 gr of 296 behind it with a Fed 150 primer. That should kill a deer FAST and do down to 1/2" at 50 yards with the S&W. It will do the job to 100 yards.

Yes, you did see right, a Fed 150 primer. This was a drop test at 200 yards with my 330 gr boolit, 21 gr of 296 and the Fed 150.

I was thinking about the recoil also, so i think i have settled on a 255 or 265gr. The only advantage the same bullet in 300gr. is going to give me is more penetration (which i do not need for whitetail) correct?

What would your pick be for my criteria between these 3?

1) Cast performance 44/255gr. wide flat nose plain base sized to .430 nose .330 meplat .350

2) Montana bullet works LBT
260Gr.
(22)BHN
.429 - .433 Diameter range
Wide Flat Nose
(HT)
0.350
(0.350)Meplat

3) Montana bullet works 240gr. WFN with a .350 meplat

All of these are plain base. I do not need a gas check if i keep them under 1,200fps correct? Or, Should i bump them up to 1,300fps with a gas check?

There is no magic velocity at which a gas check is needed. It's a combination of bullet hardness, throat and barrel dimensions, rifling twist and the pressure of the load that determines when a gas check is needed to prevent leading. The advantage of a gas check is you can have everything less than perfect and not suffer from leading.

Any of those bullets would be a fine choice, I'd probably lean towards the 260 gr as the availability in different diameters will allow you to choose one that fits your gun best.

cobrad,

I have owned several Freedom Arms .454 Casulls in my time, and still own one. I have hunted with them, shot both factory and handloaded ammo, and worked up numerous loads in grain weights from 240 to 300 gr. bullets.

Several years ago, I had a bike accident, resulting in a bad wrist fracture. As a result, I just cannot take the recoil of full-power loads in the .454 Casull anymore.

The one I have kept is a custom, built in the FA factory, with a 10" Magnaported barrel. I have installed a red dot scope on it, and developed a handload which pushes 260 gr. JFP bullets at around 1300 fps.

This is a very manageable load, accurate at ranges out to 100 yards, and one I would not hesitate to hunt big game with.

I have a pair of Pro-Aim gloves coming to ease the bruised palm and sore wrist I get if I shoot enough full power 454 loads. I'm having fun with it now, just having finally mastered it and being able to shoot it well... for me anyway.
I don't believe it will kill elk or black bear, the critters I'll hunt with it, any better than the .44 mag. There may be some advantage in shooting the 260 gr bullets at 1800 fps, in a flatter trajectory. As I am shooting open sights it's a moot point even if there is an advantage.
I have some 325 gr hardcast I've been shooting this past month and that's what I'll be using this fall anyway.

Having used the .454/.45 Colt (350gr @ 1500fps) on bear and elk I would say it will work great. Is it better or worse than other cartridges is sort of the unanswerable question.

It does work very well.

I just called Leadhead and they have a 270gr. PB WFN (LBT) with a .385 meplat. How does this compare to Cast performance 255gr. .350 meplat. Which one is the better choice for deer?

Anyone?

I'd go with the 270 grainer

Because of the weight or bigger meplat?

Both. Larger me plat means larger wound channel and penetration will still be good as long as the nose shape is correct. I have no experience with the 2 bullets that you mentioned but the 270 grainer is the one that I would start with of the 2 and go from there

Use the XTPs, as do zillions of other deer hunters. Why screw around with 1/2" hole punchers?

Here we go

I have had terrible results out of my 454 with them, no way i am going to try one in the 44mag until i see the results of the hardcast. The 629 with that xtp load is a cream puff to shoot though. I could shoot that all day.

That is what i was thinking also. I wish Leadheads made them in smaller batches though. His minimum order is 250 pieces.

It's not the same bullet. You realize that - right? The 44mag XTP is very popular amongst the knowledgeable. Why don't you start a new thread instead of dragging this old one around? You can handle that - right?

dla, could I shoot deer with the 240 XTP from my 44 Mag at say 60-75 yards and get larger than a cast bullet hole?

What do you think? Only bazzillions of guys do it every year. But who knows, maybe it magically won't work for you.

You obviously "think", but don't know.


Do us all a favor, spare us your rented wisdom and STFU.

A buddy of mine shoots the 454 Casull and 475 & 500 Linebaughs, and he's been to Africa with a couple of them. He does fine with full throttle loads, but his hands are like hams with sausages for fingers.

Anyway, with the 475 and 500 big bores he mostly shoots cast bullets with very wide, flat, sharp edged meplats at something like 850 or 900 fps. IIRC he's using W231, or maybe Unique. Lets the air right out of deer, quick like.

+1

Are you one of those bazillions you speak of? Inquiring minds want to know......

Gay fanboy?

Protecting the simple-minded one post at a time?

To see simple minded all you have to do is look in the mirror

Best you got, huh?