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Crew served? 
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I looked at one of those before I bought my FA Casull. It is a pretty cool specialty hand gun, but I thought if I'm going to carry that I might just as well carry a rifle.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I looked at one of those before I bought my FA Casull. It is a pretty cool specialty hand gun, but I thought if I'm going to carry that I might just as well carry a rifle. Exactly............
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I have to try a picture again. I shot this deer in the shoulder with my .44 at 78 yards with a WLN hard boolit. Skinning had all the meat pulled off and most of the shoulder was ruined. ![[Linked Image]](http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/Hardboolitdamage.jpg)
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Now the .460 was made for long range using a lighter bullet. I had a picture a friend sent of a deer he shot in PA at 140 yards with the .460 and factory loads. Picture was lost with a computer failure but he lost half the deer.
The bullet was just too far out of range for expansion. Now a heavy hard WLN or WFN at the velocity would poke a clean hole.
It is important to work with a gun and get the bullet right.
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Now this deer was shot with my 45-70 BFR behind the left shoulder but it exited through the right shoulder. I was at .454 velocity with a 420 gr boolit too soft, cast from 50-50 WW's and pure with a hollow point. The shoulder was ruined and more or less pulled off when I skinned. Then I shot one with a hard WFN, it went 100 yards before I found blood and went over 200 yards. It was hit about the same. That is why I say you need to work with the boolit. The revolver can do as much damage as a magnum rifle or fail too. I am still not right with this gun so I did not hunt with it this season. The 300 gr Hornady worked best so far. But I like cast. ![[Linked Image]](http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/bloodshotdoe.jpg)
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Well, this has been interesting so far. There seem to be some who have had great success with the slow and heavy and lots of penetration school of thought, and others equally successful with the practice of fast and explosive, no need for two holes.
Funny part is, I have had success with both methods with a variety of firearms.
Sad part is, it becomes less an exchange of good information and experience, and more a head-butting contest.
My primary species is elk. Where I live they come into the yard in winter, and I can drive less than an hour from my house and be in elk country in the middle of the summer.
As JJHack said "I promise you my 44 mag will kill a deer with a .429 piece of wood." With dense wood and close archery type of range, I don't doubt he is correct.
I don't care about deer. I would feel comfortable shooting the does that are standing in my driveway right now, with my .45 acp. I am talking BIG game, and started this thread out of curiosity about relative recoil in other big guns.
I think we would all agree that ya gotta hit 'em first... and as the story of the 7 mag neck shot illustrates, we have to hit them where it counts.
So far the .44 mag with 325 gr hardcast bullets is the biggest handgun I have been able to shoot well. My single experience with a 500+ lb black bear seemed to confirm the type of performance I expected; massive, end-to-end penetration resulting in a long and deadly wound channel. It worked very well. I suspect had I been using the 454 with a 260 gr hollow point at high speed, the end result would have been the same for the bear. I'm just not sure if I will be able to shoot the 454 at those high speeds to produce those explosive results, as well as I can shoot a heavier, slower bullet. More shooting will be required to see.
I am currently shooting 30 gr. H110 with 260 gr. hardcast, and recoil seems to be getting close to what I recall it being with the .44 load I mentioned.
According to the manual, I'm still 6 gr. short of a max load!
As someone else said, the .44 seems to be about the ideal combination of enough power for anything I'm going to shoot, and manageable recoil. Starting loads for the Casull, with the 335 gr. hard cast, are identical to the max loads in the .44 mag with 325 gr hard cast. This is a load I have complete confidence in for elk.
I would say in my experience the .45 LC or the .454 Casull will kill somewhat better than the 44 Mag when loaded to the same recoil level. In other words if we use the WLN or WFN cast bullet we have a meplat that is 0.090 under bullet diameter. The large meplat on the .45 will slightly increase wound diameter and slightly decrease penetration. As we have way more than enough penetration with the .45 giving some up for a larger wound channel (when both cartridges are loaded to the same recoil levels) is a good trade. I find the WLN in the heavy .45 LC or .454 Casull produces a wound channel very similar in appearance and terminal effect to the 30-06 using the 180gr X bullet. Nothing dramatic, just very effective.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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A good place to discuss "hard" cast and I have grown to hate the term just like "BHN" for a boolit.
It is alloy toughness for top accuracy in your gun. Boolits too hard can shatter. Many softer alloys can shoot very well but I get fliers with wrong things. A 50-50 alloy does well with a gas check but not a PB, too much skid past the base. The gas check is only to halt base skid and stop gas leakage but you can exceed it and lead the barrel. That means if you shoot too fast you need to toughen the boolit.
I found water dropped WW metal shoots as good as any but air cooled brings in fliers again. Softer should be oven hardened and it DOES NOT CHANGE EXPANSION. You do not change the alloy but just harden the surface for a better grip to rifling.
Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit. A small change in the meplat from a WLN to a WFN has very little affect. At the right veocity the WFN does more damage but too fast even makes it fail. Shooting a WFN faster is just not the answer. It will actually WIDEN the secondary wound channel.
One thing never thought of is lungs are also full of air and reduces hydraulic force applied until you have so much energy it compresses all the air. There is a huge difference between revolvers and rifles. Yet the revolver can be as destructive.
Energy is always needed inside an animal and you need to control where it is applied, not on the surface or beyond the animal. That also depends on the size and toughness of the animal. Deer might be the hardest in getting the energy in the right place. Two holes are always best even if the bullet falls out the other side after doing it's job. Yet a good boolit can do extreme damage even if it also kills 3 deer after passing through the first.
The worst thing to do is to try and compare a round ball muzzle loader to an arrow, revolver and a modern rifle, each works within it's parameters and needs different bullets/boolits. Even a super fast, light arrow with a tiny broad head will lose animals. Modern archers are nuts!
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I'm trying to find a way to not take this out of context, but I'm struggling to see how you intended this phrase?
"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."
In general terms, not specific to handgun, hard cast, arrows, rifles, slingshot, anything and everything that can be launched. Velocity increase adds to tissue destruction. I cannot ever in my whole professional career remember where anything I have examined after being shot looked less damaged with lower velocity.
Roy Weatherby was the pioneer in High velocity cartridges. Then the addition of countless competitors also trying to keep up with the success of those high velocity cartridges. Nobody shooting a 30/06 or 308 aspired to move up to the 30-30, they moved up to a 300 magnum.
An Arrows penetration is heavily improved from arrow weight, but with low velocity it's effective use is limited when compared to a lighter arrow at twice the speed.
My use, and personal witnessing every sort of bullet you can imagine on game shows that the faster they go the more damage and penetration they have. Including handgun loads. How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?
I cannot buy that statement about velocity. The same bullet driven faster penetrates more. With the exception of highly frangible varmint or self defense bullets. The faster they go the more tissue is moved at higher speeds.
I will agree to disagree, no point in a debate on this. I've done this for my living for far to long and seen the results over and over.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Velocity if applied. Energy applied. Put it in the wrong place and it does no work. The 30-30 can totally destroy a deer while a .300 mag can poke a hole with the wrong bullet. What you mix up with the .45 vs the .454 is the bullet itself. Yes the .454 is more powerful but the wrong bullet does not make it better. Get the right match and both kill. It is the bullet/boolit or arrow/arrow. Fast, light arrows stop faster in game and lose penetration and I don't care if you go over 300 fps, penetration suffers. Energy or cutting kills but where do you put each. A fast light arrow can stop on a deer shoulder while a slower heavy arrow will go all the way through. Leave the arrow out for now. A very fast bullet can expend all in inches while a slow one plows through. The reason to go faster in a rifle is to shoot farther, flatter. NOT to kill deer better at 50 yards. The 30-06 is too much. Penetration always comes up but you can't dispute facts, boolit weight improves it. This is a 16" tree I shot through with a 335 gr boolit at 1160 fps from a .45 Colt. It also cut the huge grape vine and I could not find the boolit in the ground. ![[Linked Image]](http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/Tree.jpg) Would a light, fast, quick expanding bullet from a .454 do that? Would a 50 gr bullet from a .220 swift at 4100 fps go through a buffalo? But back to arrows too light and fast. I found these in deer's chests while gutting them. I gave a deer away and another was found in it. They were healed in and the deer were healthy. Toy arrows shot too fast. ![[Linked Image]](http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/lightarrows.jpg) Would an 800 fps bullet from a .45 kill better then a 1600 fps from a .454? YES if the wrong bullet is used.
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Lets move on to the .475 linebaugh. We shot a line of gallon jugs, 14 if I remember. 4 were blown sky high, 2 more split and the boolit went through all 14 jugs. ![[Linked Image]](http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/firstjugs.jpg) Then a deer heart shot with the same hard cast at the right velocity at 50 yards. ![[Linked Image]](http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg3/bfrshooter/475doeheartjpg.jpg) Would a .300 Weatherby do better?
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To simplify this and try and keep from getting all tangled up like a bowl of spaghetti
The phrase I read in your post was:
"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."
My reply:
How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?
My point is velocity matters by a significant margin YMMV
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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I've shot the 454 and the 475 out of the 4 3/4" bbl. Freedom Arms, and always thought the 454 had a snappier (more torque)recoil than the 475 did. I guess some people have different perspectives on recoil.
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To simplify this and try and keep from getting all tangled up like a bowl of spaghetti
The phrase I read in your post was:
"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."
My reply:
How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?
My point is velocity matters by a significant margin YMMV Okay, I'll take a stab at it. Given your example above, of course, I must agree. At some point however, dead is dead, and enough is enough. My South African friend has shot quite of bit of plains game and is an avid reloader (in spite of the difficulty of doing so currently). He told me that an impact velocity of 2200-2400 was considered optimal for large dangerous game there. Any more was considered undesireable. I realize this conclusion may be based on the physics of bullet failure, and stuff like Barnes X's may render this conclusion false, but wouldn't the same principal apply to a cast lead bullet, at some point?
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To simplify this and try and keep from getting all tangled up like a bowl of spaghetti
The phrase I read in your post was:
"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."
My reply:
How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?
My point is velocity matters by a significant margin YMMV Okay, I'll take a stab at it. Given your example above, of course, I must agree. At some point however, dead is dead, and enough is enough. My South African friend has shot quite of bit of plains game and is an avid reloader (in spite of the difficulty of doing so currently). He told me that an impact velocity of 2200-2400 was considered optimal for large dangerous game there. Any more was considered undesireable. I realize this conclusion may be based on the physics of bullet failure, and stuff like Barnes X's may render this conclusion false, but wouldn't the same principal apply to a cast lead bullet, at some point? Exactly and a very good post. It always comes down to the bullet no matter the velocity. High velocity is a proven killer until the bullet fails. I wish fellas would consider this with a revolver, it is the same as a rifle but in a different bracket. I was one of those long ago with my first .44 in 1956. I would blow a jug of water and catch a bullet in one or two more jugs. We could not hunt deer with them at the time but I thought they would really bust a deer. It was proven false once I could use the gun on deer. Once worked out, the .44 is a wonderful deer killer. It just might be the very best. Yes, I like the large calibers too but each has problems to work out. Revolver shooters seem to look for speed while ignoring the bullet. Can an 800 fps bullet kill as good as one at twice the speed, darn sure. It is what you shoot. A .460 Weatherby can be tailored to shoot deer to T Rex. But would you use the same bullet?
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I would not hesitate to shoot deer with the same load/bullet I would use for T Rex. More than needed, but that stout bullet is going to punch a perfectly good hole in said buckskin... and kill him!
I would not, however, use my deer load on Mr. T.
Sorry, just gotta stir the pot a little. (grin)
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The "significant margin" applies primarily to expanding bullets and bullets that deform. Its also why some expanding bullets fail and in handguns have too narrow of an expansion window for a "handgun hunter" that shoots from the muzzle beyond a hundred yards. That's why some cast their own and use solids or make their own expanding cast handgun bullets.
How can anyone argue? Well, people apparently can't, but everyone here has probably at one time or another shot something with a ballistic pipsqueeks and then had mathematically superior cartridges cause ten times more carnage, yet the critter ran forever. Some people have seen this happen more than once.
What bfr is saying is that he can make a 30/30 do the damage of a 300 Winchester on deer with a jacketed bullet by using different alloys of cast in the 30/30, used within its range and velocity limits. He's not saying it IS a 300 Winchester....
Lead and lead alloys go splat easier than copper and gilding metal. It stands to reason it requires less velocity to do similar things when making expanding bullets.
"Velocity adds to tissue destruction" Yeah, so does softer metal.
YMMV......
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Here is the post again, with the most critical part in red!
To simplify this and try and keep from getting all tangled up like a bowl of spaghetti
The phrase I read in your post was:
"Penetration does not depend on velocity, just boolit weight and the integrity of the boolit."
My reply:
How could anyone argue that a 45ACP shooting a 250 grain bullet at 800fps could exceed the lethal performance from the same style bullet going 1600fps from a 454?
My point is velocity matters by a significant margin YMMV
There is nobody that I have read from in this thread, that questions a solid bullet penetrating better then a soft hollow point. That however was not part of the original quote. It simply said as I have cut and pasted exactly that Velocity does not matter.
I think it was clear as written in my reply that velocity makes all the difference in penetration when the same bullet is shot faster. NEVER.... NOT ONCE..... NOT A SINGLE TIME...... did I compare a solid to a HP.???
If this is still somehow complicated, then just carry on without me. It's impossible to converse on this topic any further.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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There is an almost religious cult trance state for many people. In reading and participating in this thread now I cannot find any reference to condescending posts, no ridicule, no sarcasm nothing like its "my way or the highway "from a single person that is here simply sharing or asking. Except for posts that are connected in some way to the highest velocity bullets which are the answer to all the projectile problems of the world. 
Last edited by HawkI; 12/20/12. Reason: Smiley
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I'm no HG guru but I believe my FA 454 Casull firing the 335 gr Cast Performance WFNGC at 1585 fps would be equally as effective, and may penetrate a bit deeper, than my 500 S&W firing the same style bullet of 440 grs at 1365 fps.
Both would have to be extremely formidable on game animals.
Gunner
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