Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 454 Casull vs bigger calibers question

Of course, you of all people already knew this.







My apologies to the OP......

Maybe, maybe not! It needs tested. However both have much more then enough penetration.
I can only relate what I have seen with hard boolits. My 45-70 BFR shoots a 317 gr WLN at 1632 fps---close to the .454. I lost two deer with perfect hits, recovered some that went 200 yards. Nice clean hole through both lungs that were still pink. I made a heavier WFN mold at 378 gr. It did exactly the same thing on deer, 200 yards or more to recover.
My .45 Colt with the 335 gr LBT puts down deer FAST at 1160 fps.
Penetration is not the issue at all, it is the hard lead shot too fast.
The 335 LBT in the .454 at 1585 fps indeed has penetration, however I would back up to impact and exit on a deer.
I have become a believer in what is called the "DWELL" theory. you need energy applied just right or it is like shooting a target arrow through a deer. Just a hole is not enough.
The .454 can do it all on any game for sure but it is still the action of the bullet, boolit for the size of the animal.
I leave out CNS or spine hits for a reason, not easy and most with a revolver can not do it. It is like a guy killing one deer and telling everyone what works.
It is sad but only animals tell the true tale.
If you lose a deer with a good hit, it is not you, the gun or velocity, it was the bullet you used.
I will leave it there and let you fellas hash it out.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around too much velocity being a problem with cast bullets. The idea flies in the face of my experiences. No problem with the factors involved in the construction of different bullets, but I just can't see that a hard cast bullet at 45 Colt velocities is going to be more deadly than the same bullet at 454 Casull speeds. In my experience a properly place bullet is going to kill the beast, assuming it is a reasonable bullet for the job. Not talking something like trying to kill elk with a .223, in spite of the fact the native alaskans have been killing all kinds of stuff with them for years.

Cast bullets are material limited. They simply cannot handle high velocities. You can easily exceed their limitations by driving them too fast. When you degrade the nose of a flat-nosed cast bullet, you hinder its penetrative potential. If you cast them too hard, they can be too brittle, too soft, they can deform. I have on many occasions seen slower cast bullets out penetrate faster ones, because they do not deform upon contact and maintain their nose shape and integrity.

Lack of penetration from the high-velocity 45-70 doesn't seem to be the "problem" that bfrshooter is referring to?

That's true for jacketed bullets as well (excluding FMJs or other types not designed to expand). Energy (also known by some as "mythical energy")can be used for penetration, expansion, or a combination of both. In bullets designed for hunting there's always a tradeoff; bullets that don't expand as much will tend to penetrate more and vice versa.

Sure, but jacketed expanding bullets are designed to open. If a flat-nosed hardcast bullet's nose deforms significantly, you're probably pushing it to fast. The problem for me with many jacketed expanding bullets is inconsistent performance. I have had them work well one day, and fail miserably the next. I prefer more predictable performance, which is what I get with hardcast bullets with wide meplats at moderate velocities. JMHO.

Hawk, I very politely and articulately asked to understand the meaning of the single sentence in that post.

There was no "pot stirring" it simply was unclear and quite frankly still is the way it is written. No part of your paragraph of explanation was involved in that single sentence.

It was not taken out of context, it was a stand alone statement without any preceding data that was edited out.

I made one simple, logical, articulate easy to read and understand statement. When two identical bullets are shot from the same gun the faster one works better.

If this is not as simple and easy to understand as possible, or you have a difference of opinion on this that's fine with me. I don't care if you shoot dirt clods or wooden dowel rods out of your gun. It simply matters not to me what anyone shoots or prefers! Plenty to go around for all of us!

I very strongly prefer hard cast flat nose bullets for some applications, and hollow point bullets for others. I don't have a cult status to follow on this. It's not a "ford or chevy" question here. I have no income from a bullet maker that guides my choices. I pick what works best. I shot about 200 Hard cast bullets today from a .45 and about 50 XTP's from a .44 mag revolver. By that measure I shoot 4 times as many hard cast!

The most common application to use a Hard cast bullet is trying to get a bit more lethal penetration from a gun that may not have the power to drive a HP bullet deep enough. When power is plentiful then the HP bullets work with astonishing success. When power is on the edge, then I prefer the harder "solid" deeper penetrating bullets. The Penetration of a hard lead bullet can exceed much more powerful cartridges shooting soft HP bullets. But if they both shoot the same bullet, the faster one will cause more trauma and deeper penetration except in the most unusual situations where other factors are involved.

Just seems a shame that folks visiting and reading this stuff might believe from that post that a slower bullet is some how superior to another of identical construction ( as stated previously, not including varmint or frangible styles)

I even put this in Red text above to help with the point that was confusing. There was never any mention of identical bullets, or different kinds of bullets in his original post. It was simply that velocity does not matter? Well it does to me and the laws of Physics, YMMV

It does get hard to explain. More velocity does indeed cause more damage but with the wrong boolit can actually impede penetration, not the point here because deer are small and do you need 50" of penetration?
Disregard boolit nose damage for a second and start to think of the pressure wave I tried to explain and it's shape off the nose at all velocities.
Whitworth said it best with "moderate" velocities. We just do not need more penetration then they afford for deer, larger animals are different but you can still reach the point the boolit will be degraded. That will change direction of a boolit.
Figure it like this with the pressure wave, larger animals slow a boolit so the wave folds back putting more tissue into contact with energy. Expanding bullets do exactly the same thing. That is the very reason you use different bullets from a rifle for the size of the animal. Your moose bullet is not the same as you would use for deer. Your bullet for Cape Buffalo is going to be different then for deer.
Today we have revolvers that shoot from 800 fps to extreme rifle velocities but being a revolver, many think the same bullet/boolit will work.
I would so like to have you think of projectile construction first, not just velocity. Think of where in any animal the energy is applied.

How does the Garret Cartridges .44 Magnum load of a 330-gr SuperHardCast Long Hammerhead at 1400-fps hold up when shot into game animals...anybody?

Ive only used that load twice (mostly because its expensive)and I only bought a single box just to test it out.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.html and the recoils very noticeable,
but I found it to do nothing on large hogs that the
(standard load I use most of the time)
of a 300 grain lee or lyman bullet over 20 grains of H110 didn,t already do, which is punch in one side and out the other and kill the hog in short order.
now on something much larger , like bison,Im confident it would have advantages, but on deer,hogs or even elk I doubt it will.
Why? the standard loads Ive used for decades do the job and exit.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/51...0-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/50...meter-300-grain-semi-wadcutter-gas-check

I believe the manufacturer reports that it is common for that particular 44 Magnum Hammerheads so shoot through both shoulders of a broadside elk, shoot lengthwise to the hips on a frontal shot grizzly, and shoot through and through lengthwise on large deer and boar. But, I also believe the manufacturer reports that it is not common to find handgun shooters with enough skill and experience to handle this cartridge as it overwhelms most with its excessive recoil. Don't think many factory guns can handle it either.

Wonder how a SuperHardCast Long Hammerhead in a .454 Casull at maximum velocity/pressure would hold up when shot into game animals?
Would an extra 200 feet per second make that much difference on the bullet itself?

Those are buffalo or elephant loads. They will be hole pokers on deer.

Didn't think that was an option. Thought the bullet was designed for a specific COL 45 Colt.

I was just curious about bullet performance if someone loaded their own...

From JB Young of crater bullets.I have shot allot of these out of my 45-70 and 454 Casull.

[quote][Soon after hearing the Beiters' successful hunting with the 550 grain Crater, I received the following e-mail from a customer in South Dakota who did extensive tests with the 420 grain Crater Lite in his Marlin 1895 45/70 22 inch barrel gun.

" I shot a 2400 pound range bull (livestock) at 47 paces or around 50 yards with a load I worked up with your 420 gainers. The load is xx grs. of Alliant #7 compressed using 210 Fed primer. The load averaged 2097 fps. in 10 shot string, and shot under an inch at 100 yards. The rifle is zeroed at 175 yards shooting 4.2 inches high at 100 yards. The bullet entered the left side of the 2400 pound bull crushing the left and right shoulder joints tearing 3 inch hole though the top of the lungs and exited skipping along its happy way though the S.D prairie. The bull in an instant of impact dropped to the ground, made a slight effort to return to its feet and died. I shot the wet newspaper at 100 yards which was stacked 6 feet thick and got complete penetration."

This customer says the 2400-pound domestic bull is a lot bigger and has more heavy shoulder bone and muscles than that of its wild cousins such as Cape Buffalo and Water Buffalo which has an average weight of 1600 pounds. This customer adds that when the Crater Lite is pushed above 2000 fps, it achieved only 3 feet penetration at 100 yds. However, when he reduces the load velocity to 1600 fps, the Crater Lite punched through the 6 feet thick wet newspaper at 100 yds.

After experiencing this kind of phenomenal penetration power on the 2400-pound range bull and the 6 feet wet newspaper penetration tests, this customer exclaims, " What can you ask for more?"quote]

Jayco

I reckon' those holes would kill em'...?

I guess this question applies to anyone who can answer it, but how about hard lead jacketed bullets? For example, Sierra makes a .429" 300 grain jacketed bullet. The lead contains 6% antimony and Sierra says its the hardest bullet they make. Would the jacket help to keep the bullet from fragmenting at higher velocities?

"Those are buffalo or elephant loads. They will be hole pokers on deer." - bfrshooter


I'd suspect that they would be outstanding, if the shooter can manage the recoil and place (an) accurate shot(s), it should do the trick on a head on full frontal shot through the skull of the largest bear. But, there are guys with more bear experience than I who have decades of experience with that shot and they prefer smaller chamberings with far less recoil to better facilitate accuracy and follow ups on a frontal shot. That camp argues that you only need enough gun and bullet to penetrate through the skull to reach vitals and at least one of those guys used nothing more than a 357 for decades as a professional guide in AK. IIRC, that same gun has been used for the last 30+ years.