I just had some guy try to tell me how much better a Kahr sub compact 9mm is than a snub nosed .38 Special. First he tried to tell me the 9mm was "so much" more powerful. Then I explained when both are fired out of 3" barrels, expansion and penetration are pretty much the same. Then he said his Kahr holds 6 rounds, and I pointed out that Taurus makes a 6 shot snub, and there are always the Colts. Them he said its all about the reload time, but neither of us could think of an instance where a civilian was saved by a faster reload. I also pointed out my HKS speed loader is plenty fast. He was still convinced that his Kahr was more powerful and just "better". I'm happy he's confident in his choice, I think it's a good choice for a pocket gun. But a guy who knows how to effectively use his DA revolver isn't at any disadvantage.
I like 9 mm also, and I think his Kahr is a dandy little gun. But I certainly don't see any meaningful difference, alone a "big difference". As for your 640, I think . 38 +P is the way to go in a snub. Just too much loss in velocity in .357 and then you add the flash, noise, and horrendous recoil.
Better projectiles for the 9mm, maybe, but they make a 38+P 135gr Gold Dot load designed for snubbies, so maybe not. I'd say it comes down to whichever one you shoot the best and feel competent with. I know I wish I hadn't traded my Colt Agent off, miss that gun. I could shoot the [bleep] out of it too.
Better projectiles for the 9mm, maybe, but they make a 38+P 135gr Gold Dot load designed for snubbies, so maybe not. I'd say it comes down to whichever one you shoot the best and feel competent with. I know I wish I hadn't traded my Colt Agent off, miss that gun. I could shoot the [bleep] out of it too.
If I were going out with a pocket full of cash, I'd probably get the Kahr, but I'd never feel less armed with a J fre or my Colt Cobra.
Better projectiles for the 9mm, maybe, but they make a 38+P 135gr Gold Dot load designed for snubbies, so maybe not. I'd say it comes down to whichever one you shoot the best and feel competent with. I know I wish I hadn't traded my Colt Agent off, miss that gun. I could shoot the [bleep] out of it too.
If I were going out with a pocket full of cash, I'd probably get the Kahr, but I'd never feel less armed with a J fre or my Colt Cobra.
until the day comes, as it did for me a couple of days ago, when you are setting by some blm signs leading into the desert, and the signs say be aware of your surrounding, high illegal/drug trafficing area. And a guy running a ranch nearby had just told you that the area was under the firm control of the sinalola narco cartel. Al of a second that little revolver doesn't look so good anymore.
Like I said in another thread, from Hickok to Cirrilo, revolver men carried two. Sounds to me like the country you described is rifleman's territory anyway, like an 18in AR with a 1-4x scope, loaded with 77g SMK's
Hmmm, I have yet to have a revolver fail to feed or fire. Can't say that about an auto. There are 38 Special loads that are every bit as good by any reasonable measure in a short barreled pistol. To me it would come down to what you are good with and are comfortable with. Personally I will take a S&W Model 60.
What velocity does a snub get in 38 especiale with 158gr bullets?
My 2.25" SP101 only gets 1050 fps with various factory 357 self defense loads with 158gr bullets. IIRC, my G26 gets 900-950 fps with a 147gr bonded Ranger. The 158gr and 147gr seem close enough in the grand scheme of things.
The difference for me, is that the 9mm is more accurate than the 357 SP101 (double action mode) and follow-up shots are much faster. The PM9 was also easier to shoot than any snub I've tried. A 38 would be more manageable but I thought velocities were more like 750-800 fps.
Of course, revolver aficianados all practice one handed reloads, right? They're not impossible, and I practice them when I work with my own snubbies. Good luck doing it fast, speedloaders or not. That's just one example of how the manual of arms of a DA revolver is more complex and involved than that of the DAO auto. Not impossible to master, but a challenge under ideal circumstances and much more difficult under less than ideal circumstances.
The idea that a snub nose DA revolver is in any way simpler to manipulate than a DAO auto like a Kahr is unsound.
I am a bit curious how, one could do a one handed magazine replacement as well. Not sure what the reference to one handed reloads is all about? I have both autos and revolvers, and I always use two hands.
I would bet his little Kahr 9mm is not as powerfull as MY Snubnose.... It's a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44special
I own the little Kahr CM-9 Compact in 9mm & it's a great little BUG thats very accurate & has a great trigger. I really like it and shoot it well but I generally carry a S&W Bodyguard .38 Subby as my BUG when packing either a 1911 Commander or Glock 32 as my primary CCW. I feel equally comfortable with both my Kahr 9mm & S&W.38sp BodyGaurd, and My Kahr CM-9 has NEVER jammed or malfunctioned. But I usually choose the Bodyguard because I know the .38 snubbie WILL NEVER jam or stovepipe
I usually don't pack my little Charter Bulldog .44 spec unless I'm hunting arrowheads at the Ranch. It works great on rattlesnakes with the CCI .44 spec. shot shell Snake loads. And it's a little too large to fit in my front pocket of my Wranglers for a BUG. When I'm carrying the .44sp at the Ranch, I usually just cram it in the back pocket of my blue jeans, since I don't own a holster that fits my Bulldog.
I used to run a light weight snubby, 2 issues I had the bullets would often move under recoil, yeah some brands wouldn't but it was always in the back of my mind that it could be an issue. next was I couldn't hit worth a crap with it. even with a very nice 3# single action trigger pull, very very inaccurate for me. The kahr is alot more accurate gun for me. also I will take 9mm+p from a 3" barrel all day long over 38 specialy from a 2" barrel. the 38 isn't going to keep up with the 9 with that extra inch of barrel. also compared to say a keltec pf 9 which is pimping 8 rounds its quite a bit better than the 5 most j frames hold. the only thing I like snubbys for is being able to hold it pointed at someone through a coat pocket and actually fire the gun if needed. this allows you to protect yourself if needed but avoid brandishing charges and legal issues if the situation deescalates, and the people say he was waving a gun around at us.
the snubby is simply outclassed by current offerings.
Well it is a choice, you can trust your life to your choice and I will trust mine to what I choose. I will not in any way feel "outclassed" My "snubbie" is a 3" Model 60 that will handle 357 Magnums. Don't think a 9+p would have any advantage. It does have one disadvantage, I looked everywhere and could not find a single piece of black plastic.
I just had some guy try to tell me how much better a Kahr sub compact 9mm is than a snub nosed .38 Special. First he tried to tell me the 9mm was "so much" more powerful. Then I explained when both are fired out of 3" barrels, expansion and penetration are pretty much the same. Then he said his Kahr holds 6 rounds, and I pointed out that Taurus makes a 6 shot snub, and there are always the Colts. Them he said its all about the reload time, but neither of us could think of an instance where a civilian was saved by a faster reload. I also pointed out my HKS speed loader is plenty fast. He was still convinced that his Kahr was more powerful and just "better". I'm happy he's confident in his choice, I think it's a good choice for a pocket gun. But a guy who knows how to effectively use his DA revolver isn't at any disadvantage.
What's a 9mm subcompact? I'm not sure there is such a thing unless it's the worthless Kel Tec. I certainly wouldn't call a Shield or a Kahr a subcompact.
I don't see much difference. In theory, the 38 Special case hold more and should be capable of higher velocities. Due to many factors, you simply never see this with the 9 outshining it almost always.
As to the size, I don't see much difference. I've always thought autos were more comfortable, but like the Charter Off Duty that was mentioned, there are some pretty small .38's.
I'd take a Colt Magnum Carry over either if power is needed and a M&P Compact if firepower is.
Better projectiles for the 9mm, maybe, but they make a 38+P 135gr Gold Dot load designed for snubbies, so maybe not. I'd say it comes down to whichever one you shoot the best and feel competent with. I know I wish I hadn't traded my Colt Agent off, miss that gun. I could shoot the [bleep] out of it too.
If I were going out with a pocket full of cash, I'd probably get the Kahr, but I'd never feel less armed with a J fre or my Colt Cobra.
until the day comes, as it did for me a couple of days ago, when you are setting by some blm signs leading into the desert, and the signs say be aware of your surrounding, high illegal/drug trafficing area. And a guy running a ranch nearby had just told you that the area was under the firm control of the sinalola narco cartel. Al of a second that little revolver doesn't look so good anymore.
in that scenario, there still is no meaningful difference between the Kahr and the J Frame. With either, you would be woefully undergunned. I'd reach for the AR180B in the back seat, and grab several 30 round magazines.
About 8 or 9 years ago I was doing some chronographing and playing around with different options. I'm missing some data, but test vehicles were: a S&W 360 1 7/8" (.357), S&W 360 3" (.357), Rossi 462 2" (.357), a S&W 637 (.38), and a Kahr P9 (9mm), I got the following readings.
I wanted a comfortable shooting load for just playing around with my scandium .357s so I experimented down until it was fun and, using lead bullets out of them got...
125 grain RNFP and 4.0 grains of Unique, 2" 560 fps 125 grain RNFP and 4.0 grains of Unique, 3" 705 fps 148 grain DEWC and 4.0 grains of Unique, 2" 638 fps 148 grain DEWC and 4.0 grains of Unique, 3" 715 fps
And using factory loads (didn't note exact load) in my Kahr P9, Rossi, and S&W 360 got... .38 special Winchester 125 grain JHP, 2" 860 fps 9mm Federal 115 grain FMC, 3" 1050 fps .357 magnum Remington 125 grain JSP, 1 7/8" 1100 fps
Subjectively, and using factory loads, the revolvers had some annoying blast, mostly the barrel/cylinder gap even when using .38's, whereas the 9mm was pretty pleasant. The full-power .357 out of the Rossi... well, I'd hate to have to shoot it at night with no hearing protection in close quarters, but in the scandium guns, the recoil was unreal! (I still regret selling them though.)
I'd always been a revolver guy, but when I objectively looked at the almost 200 fps edge the 9mm got over the .38, albeit with 115 grains vs 125 grains, with seemingly less recoil, while holding a couple more rounds in a flatter package with an easier reload available (swap magazines)... for me, the 9mm made more sense.
Don't get me wrong, I still get nostalgic over snubby revolvers, both in 2 and 3" barrels, and could easily see myself carrying one, but only in a lightweight package. I just can't see the practicality of concealed carrying a 6 shot revolver that weighs in the mid-20 ounce range. If it floats your boat, I'm all for it. Now as a trail gun on the other hand..
I am a bit curious how, one could do a one handed magazine replacement as well. Not sure what the reference to one handed reloads is all about? I have both autos and revolvers, and I always use two hands.
One of the first things you learn in a shoothouse with Simmunition ammo is folks get shot in the hands, A LOT. Law enforcement shootouts demonstrate the same phenomenon.
A bit of a complex motor skill, as such if you want to be able to pull it off under duress you'd better have done it many hundreds of times. This is something you should practice when you dry-fire. You do dry-fire, don't you?
I wouldn't even worry about trying to reload a revolver, have a second one. Something like a S&W Bodyguard is a damn fine BACKUP GUN.
In any relevant comparison, the 9mm provides superior terminal ballistics to the .38 Special - that's really not debatable. But that should really come as no surprise since the revolver and the .38 cartridge were developed in the black powder era.
I like revolvers, and I'm very fond of the .38 Special cartridge, but it is NOT a reasonable equivalent to the 9mm cartridge as commonly loaded. Most 9mm's loads best the .38 Special by 200 fps or more. You wouldn't deny the significance of a 20% increase in any other facet of life, would you?
If you really doubt it, do your own chronograph testing like bhemry has done and form your own conclusions.
What's a 9mm subcompact? I'm not sure there is such a thing unless it's the worthless Kel Tec. I certainly wouldn't call a Shield or a Kahr a subcompact.
I use'em both and feel comfy which ever choice I make. I often run a river in a canoe that has a lot of weekend drunks acting like weekend drunks. One time, I'll take the .38 snub and the next time I might take the Kahr 9mm. Or the .45acp...
When you have a good selection, it's alright to mix things up a bit. My snub only carries 5 rounds, while my Kahr CW-9 carries 7 and one. So, I feel a bit more comfy with the Kahr.
My Kahr costs about 400 which isn't terrible. I sold a Keltec PF-9 to get it. Never warmed up to the Keltec and the Kahr is sweet...and accurate. The Keltec was accurate...but definitely not sweet.
Dan... "Never warmed up to the Keltec and the Kahr is sweet...and accurate. The Keltec was accurate...but definitely not sweet." I've been looking at both of these, can you expound on your statement a little more, curious about your likes/dislikes on them both. Thanks.
My 2.25" SP101 only gets 1050 fps with various factory 357 self defense loads with 158gr bullets. IIRC, my G26 gets 900-950 fps with a 147gr bonded Ranger. The 158gr and 147gr seem close enough in the grand scheme of things.
So 100fps advantage to 357. But this is not the 38.
Recoil and blast from the 357 seems like double compared to the G26. I don't have my chrono results for the 38 Especiale... but I recall mid to high 700's with 158gr... 750 to 780fps seems to ring a bell from a S&W 36 (now gone).
My mild 357 reloads run 930 fps with the 158gr. The 9mm from the G26 is still easier to shoot for me.
I sometimes use an 8" gong for practice at 20-25+ yards. In single-action with the SP101 I can hit it regularly, but in double-action I need to cut the distance in half.
With the G26, it's hit after hit after hit. Easy in comparison, with MUCH faster follow-ups. The front site covers the target though. The S&W 36 in 38 was mild, but it took a lot of concentration and effort to shoot just like the SP101 357.
I had a PM9 and it was also very accurate and easy to shoot. Only complaint was that it would get some surface rust from my sweat in summer. G26 is bigger and heavier, but I don't have to baby it as much. Love the G26, but its a little chunky.
I still like the 5-shot revolver though. Had a Taurus 44 Spec Titanium. Great field handgun, but it jammed. I fixed it and sold it. I used to carry my SP101 while hunting... finished my elk with it last year. With 180gr bullets its a definite step up from a 9mm subcompact, but its a handful with full-tilt H110 loads! Worse than my 44 Mag and 45 Colt in terms of torquing out of my hand.
Better projectiles for the 9mm, maybe, but they make a 38+P 135gr Gold Dot load designed for snubbies, so maybe not. I'd say it comes down to whichever one you shoot the best and feel competent with. I know I wish I hadn't traded my Colt Agent off, miss that gun. I could shoot the [bleep] out of it too.
If I were going out with a pocket full of cash, I'd probably get the Kahr, but I'd never feel less armed with a J fre or my Colt Cobra.
Not me. As between those two, I prefer the J Airweight or Colt Cobra. I carried the Kahr P9 for years, but what always bothered me was that, on rare occasion (though often enough for concern) I would accidentally compress the mag release under recoil, thus momentarily disabling the handgun. I've never inadvertently activated the cylinder latch on a double action revolver of any stripe.
Dan... "Never warmed up to the Keltec and the Kahr is sweet...and accurate. The Keltec was accurate...but definitely not sweet." I've been looking at both of these, can you expound on your statement a little more, curious about your likes/dislikes on them both. Thanks.
Maggie
The Keltec is accurate, but it's a tough gun to shoot. It has been engineered to have the absolute minimum amount of metal and material necessary to contain the explosive forces of the cartridge. As such, it simply stings to shoot much. Also, mine exhibited excessive wear in the first 200 rounds, to include peening of the chamber hood against the slide and slide rails that showed unusual wear.
The Kahr CW-9 was 100 dollars more expensive, but worth every penny in difference. The recoil forces are distributed more ergonomically and there isn't a bit of discomfort. The gun is very accurate as well. Given my experience with both guns, I'd elect to buy the Kahr if the price was not the issue.
What's a 9mm subcompact? I'm not sure there is such a thing unless it's the worthless Kel Tec. I certainly wouldn't call a Shield or a Kahr a subcompact.
How about a Kahr PM9?
I've never held the Kahr and Kel Tec in each hand and compared them that closely. Just informally, the Kel Tec seems enough smaller to almost put it in the subcompact category, but I could be mistaken. Just informally, the size in descent seemed to be M&P Compact, Kahr PM9 and Kel Tec single stack 9. I got rid of my Kel Tec both because it wasn't reliable and it didn't seem to be a lot smaller than the M&P Compact. It does seem a bit smaller though.
Dan... "Never warmed up to the Keltec and the Kahr is sweet...and accurate. The Keltec was accurate...but definitely not sweet." I've been looking at both of these, can you expound on your statement a little more, curious about your likes/dislikes on them both. Thanks.
Maggie
The Keltec is accurate, but it's a tough gun to shoot. It has been engineered to have the absolute minimum amount of metal and material necessary to contain the explosive forces of the cartridge. As such, it simply stings to shoot much. Also, mine exhibited excessive wear in the first 200 rounds, to include peening of the chamber hood against the slide and slide rails that showed unusual wear.
The Kahr CW-9 was 100 dollars more expensive, but worth every penny in difference. The recoil forces are distributed more ergonomically and there isn't a bit of discomfort. The gun is very accurate as well. Given my experience with both guns, I'd elect to buy the Kahr if the price was not the issue.
Your experience with the Kel Tec is similar to my own. As an owner of both, did you feel like the Kel Tec gave you a significant advantage, size-wise, over the Kahr?
Better projectiles for the 9mm, maybe, but they make a 38+P 135gr Gold Dot load designed for snubbies, so maybe not. I'd say it comes down to whichever one you shoot the best and feel competent with. I know I wish I hadn't traded my Colt Agent off, miss that gun. I could shoot the [bleep] out of it too.
If I were going out with a pocket full of cash, I'd probably get the Kahr, but I'd never feel less armed with a J fre or my Colt Cobra.
until the day comes, as it did for me a couple of days ago, when you are setting by some blm signs leading into the desert, and the signs say be aware of your surrounding, high illegal/drug trafficing area. And a guy running a ranch nearby had just told you that the area was under the firm control of the sinalola narco cartel. Al of a second that little revolver doesn't look so good anymore.
On that case neither does the damned Kahr. Thats fullsize, full capacity and then as a back up weapon territory. If i were going to be hiking around an area like that i woukd most definately have a long gun with me. Or just say [bleep] it and go somewheres else
Let me comment on this as a guy that's carried both the .38 Special snub and a few semi auto pistols for serious purposes. And needed a gun for real a few times BTW. One can carry a larger semi auto with all of it's advantages and have it hide just as well as the .38 snubs. Their extra weight is a real advantage if you really need a gun. Drop a revolver, like your smiths and Colts, on the sidewalk and 50% of the time they won't fire when you pick them up. Never saw an auto put of commisson with the same treatment. Since some have brought up the .44 Special in a small revolver, I will mention the Colt Defender in .45 ACP. Seven vs. five rounds and lots of power. No contest. E
I really think it a personal choice. My Model 60 with full house 357 mags (125g 16ish grains of H110) is a nasty little thing. I can however still keep all five into 3" at 25 yards. Go to wadcutters and it will shrink to 2". I really don't know the LEO manual of arms, my background is military. One handed reloads are not something taught at least in my time. I do not feel at a disadvantage nor under gunned. My background says if you are down to pistol range you're already screwed.
I really don't know the LEO manual of arms, my background is military. One handed reloads are not something taught at least in my time. I do not feel at a disadvantage nor under gunned. My background says if you are down to pistol range you're already screwed.
Handgun shootouts turn into one-handed affairs nearly half the time. Let me assure you that today's military door-kickers get trained on one-handed shooting. "Your already screwed" is really not the proper mindset to have if you expect to prevail.
I just had some guy try to tell me how much better a Kahr sub compact 9mm is than a snub nosed .38 Special. First he tried to tell me the 9mm was "so much" more powerful. Then I explained when both are fired out of 3" barrels, expansion and penetration are pretty much the same. Then he said his Kahr holds 6 rounds, and I pointed out that Taurus makes a 6 shot snub, and there are always the Colts. Them he said its all about the reload time, but neither of us could think of an instance where a civilian was saved by a faster reload. I also pointed out my HKS speed loader is plenty fast. He was still convinced that his Kahr was more powerful and just "better". I'm happy he's confident in his choice, I think it's a good choice for a pocket gun. But a guy who knows how to effectively use his DA revolver isn't at any disadvantage.
I have both, the 38 Titanium gun with a 12 pound trigger in a 14 ounce revolver can make it a bit tough regards gilt edge accuracy but for sure its fine for belly to belly distance A PM9 with a bit lighter trigger stretches the good hit distance for me and the second, third, fourth shot are just faster as I don't need as much time to recover from the recoil. E also has a point, drop the revolver on the cement and then try it for sure.
I really think it a personal choice. My Model 60 with full house 357 mags (125g 16ish grains of H110) is a nasty little thing. I can however still keep all five into 3" at 25 yards. Go to wadcutters and it will shrink to 2". I really don't know the LEO manual of arms, my background is military. One handed reloads are not something taught at least in my time. I do not feel at a disadvantage nor under gunned. My background says if you are down to pistol range you're already screwed.
Well an old Nazareth song, I'm going to go down fighting. Prevail is the desired outcome. If it comes to pistol range then all tactical advantage has been lost. IE you are at a distinct tactical disadvantage.
I prefer SA, but am practiced with DA. The S&W has a pretty good DA trigger, much better than the DAO autos I have fired. Also easier to correct most revolvers when the DA trigger is not so good. Again one of the choices we make.
Here's why I don't carry revolvers anymore: 1. More bullets is always better than less. If you don't need them all, so be it, you can't know that ahead of time, more is still better than less. 2. Since I am not Jerry Miculek, I can reload a semi much much faster and smoother than a revolver, with less fine motor skill, even more so with only one hand. 3. After shooting bunches of ammo thru many examples of revolvers and modern semis, I have seen nothing to make me believe revolvers are more reliable than semis, perhaps have seen the opposite, and when a revolver gags, it's a lot harder to clear. YMMV
Double action at 25 yards for me depends on the load. 38's, 38 +p, 357 defensive loads about the same. Full house 357 mag opens up to about 6". Depends on the day, some better some worse. Timed rate of fire SA vice DA is not really that much different. Now if the range closes to say 7 yards then no difference.
If you can draw it really fast without snagging it on anything, and then after drawing it really fast and without taking the time to adjust your hold put the first one or two shots where you want them to go, all while your brain is registering the fact that you are really and truly, not just make believe after some little stress test or having a loud noise in your ear or running a few yards but really believing and understanding that this is your one and only chance to live or die, with all of the psychological fog and motor skill degradation that comes with that, then I suppose either one will do.
One of those awh S**T moments. Thankfully I have only had one that I thought would qualify. Women comes pounding on the door bleeding everywhere from a face wound screaming help me help me. Dude comes in right behind drunk and abusive I'm going to kill the b***h. Goes right at my now wife's Grandfather. Got the 1911A1 and got in between the two and told him that if he did not back off I would plant him right now right here. Thankfully it was in a state that understood home defense. She was OK, he went to jail. Wife's Uncle left the scene when the women came into the grandfathers house.. 34 years ago and we were not yet married. I normally like a revolver, but the 1911 is a good one . Not really a BUG, and they do jam. It was what I had at the moment.
Drop a revolver, like your smiths and Colts, on the sidewalk and 50% of the time they won't fire when you pick them up.
Source?
That will only happen if you manage to drop the gun precisely on its RIGHT side, and that's not real likely since most revolvers are muzzle heavy. Revolvers aren't quite that fragile, but they are easier to take out of action.
I love my 1950's Colt Detective Special, and even my Taurus stainless M-85...but I have to admit that I shoot my Springfield XD-9 subcompact better - much better. And even with my "Calif. Compliant" mags, it holds 10 rounds plus one. There is not much difference size-wise, either.
I no longer carry any revolvers for self defense purposes. As a backup gun or at close range, there is not much difference except that the revolver has an edge for contact shots. Once the range starts increasing, my Sig P938, with its excellent high profile night sights, outshines even the full sized, 4 inch .38 Special revolver I carried back in the day, at distances to 25 yards. (I am not talking bullseye shooting but USPSA/IDPA type shooting.) With the Sig I also can carry a couple of reloads very discreetly. With the subcompact auto I feel as though I have flexibility to deal with a wider variety of threat situations.
By the way, I can almost say the same thing about the Springfield XDS .45, except that it is a larger gun than the P938, and I have yet to find good night sights for it.
Soure ? Personal observations of many of both on the street. E
I'm not sure you can derive a valid 50% figure based on that. Seems way too high. Revolvers have been heavily used in war by US forces from about 1860 through about 1911, and supplementarily through the two World Wars and beyond, without reports in significant numbers of the particular shortcoming you suggest. Furthermore, there's their long history in US police work. It wasn't dropped from police work due to complaints about the shortcoming you specify, but rather due to sustained firepower issues which favor auto pistols.
IIRC when the Secret Service did their "frisbee" test, they used their S&W 2.5" model 19 as the control and it faired much better than the Glock, and not as we'll as some if the other auto's such as the Sig.
With an auto reloads are faster, easier to do without looking at the gun, can be reloaded while a round is in the chamber and autos can be "topped off" if you want.
The first two can be debated, but for most folks hold true. The last two are valid points, but may not concern some folks.
Not sure if anyone else already mentioned it but autos are slimmer and just plain easier to carry, including the reloads. In my case it's the P938, which I finally have running reliably.
I still want one of those M60 Pro models - 4" barrel, night sight on the front, adj rear. Load pretty much anything you want in it - a round of snake shot, couple rounds of wadcutters for small game, and a couple of full tilt magnums for large unfriendly kitties. Pretty nice revo for knocking around in the wild. But serious defensive use, in an area where all the predators are two legged, I'll go auto.
I like 9 mm also, and I think his Kahr is a dandy little gun. But I certainly don't see any meaningful difference, alone a "big difference".
To me the difference is in the concealability (including the spare ammo) and the slight - but potentially critical - speed in reloading an empty handgun. Last, the vast majority of revolvers (I believe) are carried in OTB holsters, while the modern slim 9mms can be rather comfortably carried in an IWB holster... Just my .02..
But as to shells/power - yeah, they're about the same..
I like 9 mm also, and I think his Kahr is a dandy little gun. But I certainly don't see any meaningful difference, alone a "big difference".
To me the difference is in the concealability (including the spare ammo) and the slight - but potentially critical - speed in reloading an empty handgun. Last, the vast majority of revolvers (I believe) are carried in OTB holsters, while the modern slim 9mms can be rather comfortably carried in an IWB holster... Just my .02..
But as to shells/power - yeah, they're about the same..
My AirWeight Bodyguard carries very comfortably IWB in a Milt Sparks Versa Max II, but yes, a slim auto pistol is more perfectly suited for IWB carry.
Believe whatever you like RH. I've got a friend who tied up a 29 Smith when he used it as a club. Happend to catch the bad guy with the edge of the clylinder. Gun could not be fired after the fight. BTW, the same guy personally examined three Glocks after getting reports of several other that came apart when used as clubs. When that happens, they can't be repaired as the frame rails are ripped off. A revolver tied up with a bent clylinder pin can usually be repaired. E
Believe whatever you like RH. I've got a friend who tied up a 29 Smith when he used it as a club. Happend to catch the bad guy with the edge of the clylinder. Gun could not be fired after the fight.
Sorry, Eremicus, but if you've reached the point you're using your sidearms as a nightstick, you're past the point of worrying about how well it will function as a firearm. If you need to buy a new gun after beating an attacker into submission with your empty revolver, so be it. It's not designed to survive being used like that.
That said, held by the barrel and trigger guard, using the butt as the striking point, I don't see a lot of damage occurring to a quality double action revolver.
I like 9 mm also, and I think his Kahr is a dandy little gun. But I certainly don't see any meaningful difference, alone a "big difference".
To me the difference is in the concealability (including the spare ammo) and the slight - but potentially critical - speed in reloading an empty handgun. Last, the vast majority of revolvers (I believe) are carried in OTB holsters, while the modern slim 9mms can be rather comfortably carried in an IWB holster... Just my .02..
But as to shells/power - yeah, they're about the same..
Specifically I'm comparing what I consider a pocket BUG. If something is going int a hip holster of mine, it certainly won't be a BUG. My LW Commander carries and conceals just fine with shorts and a T-shirt. Just comparing BUG's.
Kev, back in the mid 80s, Iver Johnson sold a little .22lr called the TP-22. It was a Walther PPK knockoff, scaled down. Same take down and everything. The slide and frame were cheap zinc based, but the fixed barrel was steel. Oddly enough, the gun I owned functioned reliably with every mixed round I fired through it and it was a pretty accurate little beast as well. I'm trying to recall, but the magazine I believe held 6 rounds. It was a true "pocket" gun! I killed many a West Texas grass hopper (about the size of a humming bird!) and not just a few rattle snakes on the black top roads at night.
It was a comforting little gun to have tucked away where no one knew it was there.
Kev, back in the mid 80s, Iver Johnson sold a little .22lr called the TP-22. It was a Walther PPK knockoff, scaled down. Same take down and everything. The slide and frame were cheap zinc based, but the fixed barrel was steel. Oddly enough, the gun I owned functioned reliably with every mixed round I fired through it and it was a pretty accurate little beast as well. I'm trying to recall, but the magazine I believe held 6 rounds. It was a true "pocket" gun! I killed many a West Texas grass hopper (about the size of a humming bird!) and not just a few rattle snakes on the black top roads at night.
It was a comforting little gun to have tucked away where no one knew it was there.
You cannot make a 6-round cylinder diameter as thin as say, a Kahr P-9.. That revolver's gonna print.
The P-9 has awesome carry characteristics, for sure, but I don't recall my Detective Special printing at all while carried in a Milt Sparks VM II back when that was my regular carry piece.
You cannot make a 6-round cylinder diameter as thin as say, a Kahr P-9.. That revolver's gonna print.
The P-9 has awesome carry characteristics, for sure, but I don't recall my Detective Special printing at all while carried in a Milt Sparks VM II back when that was my regular carry piece.
You cannot make a 6-round cylinder diameter as thin as say, a Kahr P-9.. That revolver's gonna print.
The P-9 has awesome carry characteristics, for sure, but I don't recall my Detective Special printing at all while carried in a Milt Sparks VM II back when that was my regular carry piece.
Does the VMII work well for pocket carry?
The discussion has varied fairly widely, but my experience with both the P-9 and the Detective Special has been with IWB carry. I don't consider either of them to be "pocket guns," though both will fit in a pants pocket, and the cylinder print is easy to deal with in a pocket by a mere matter of placing a wallet sized piece of thick leather in front of it.
You cannot make a 6-round cylinder diameter as thin as say, a Kahr P-9.. That revolver's gonna print..
Now, maybe if the person's 500# and usin' suspenders with baggy pants and pockets.............
[/quote]I've carried both and when carried in a front pocket, the flat auto's tend to print more. The cylinder seems to breakup the outline. Either way it's clear something large is in the pocket, but with the revolver it seems much less obviously a handgun.
You missed the point TRH. A man's jaw is alot softer than a concrete sidewalk. I've never seen a semi auto put out of action after being bounced on the sidewalk. Again, half of the revolver I know of were. Never saw a large auto, when used as a club, put out of action either. This was before the coming of the Glock. The gunsmith I used back in the day once told me that he had lots of parts stocked for revolvers. But none for the large semi auto pistols. They was simply no need. E
Personally I prefer a semi auto for self defensive use. More rounds, easier to carry extra magazines than speed loaders and I can reload them faster
Certainly as a primary, but what about a pocket gun? Still semi-auto?
For me yes the semi is flatter and reloads faster for me than does the revolver and since I prefer 1911's the trigger pull is always better than a revolvers double action pull
I was surprised that my 640 printed less and carried more comfortably than my Shield did in the same type IWB holsters from the same maker, Kusiak.
Being a civilian, I don't see the need for quick one handed reloads or for using a hand gun as a club. It's simply a last chance do or die weapon. If I want to go pick a fight you won't notice my full size M&P9 on my war belt full of magazines due to the AR-15 I'm carrying.
My memory's a little fuzzy. I remember a couple years ago somebody on here talking about how their plain old leather vest was bullet proof. Does anybody else remember that thread?
But a guy who knows how to effectively use his DA revolver isn't at any disadvantage.
As long as the comparison is strictly against tiny six shot autos then I guess I could be forced to agree................or if placing parameters on the type of fight the gun will be used in, vs. being prepared for the fight you're given. However times have changed since the .38spl snubby reigned supreme. Society has changed, and with it the notion that the "average gunfight" will only take 2-3 rounds. Maybe, but what if? The gun industry has also evolved, and today's gun buyer isn't forced to the snubby unless he really wants one. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, they still perform as they always have, but there are other choices now. As a reliable backup to something bigger and better, the snubby is a worthy choice. But as a primary defensive arm, no thank you.
For me the advantages of the small auto over the snubby revolver are: -Capacity -Flatness (concealability) -Speed of reloads -Convenience of carrying reloads -Typically better sights (adjustable, and easy to swap/customize) -Easier to shoot faster while maintaining accuracy
I truly don't care what anyone else chooses to carry. I'm simply giving my reasons for my choices.
But a guy who knows how to effectively use his DA revolver isn't at any disadvantage.
As long as the comparison is strictly against tiny six shot autos then I guess I could be forced to agree................or if placing parameters on the type of fight the gun will be used in, vs. being prepared for the fight you're given. However times have changed since the .38spl snubby reigned supreme. Society has changed, and with it the notion that the "average gunfight" will only take 2-3 rounds. Maybe, but what if? The gun industry has also evolved, and today's gun buyer isn't forced to the snubby unless he really wants one. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, they still perform as they always have, but there are other choices now. As a reliable backup to something bigger and better, the snubby is a worthy choice. But as a primary defensive arm, no thank you.
For me the advantages of the small auto over the snubby revolver are: -Capacity -Flatness (concealability) -Speed of reloads -Convenience of carrying reloads -Typically better sights (adjustable, and easy to swap/customize) -Easier to shoot faster while maintaining accuracy
I truly don't care what anyone else chooses to carry. I'm simply giving my reasons for my choices.
All good points above sir...
Lady brought in a brand-new Taurus revolver yesterday - a hammerless version in .380.. (I didn't note the model)...
It has the WORST trigger pull I've ever experienced - strong to the point of 'nearly painful (literally) to pull'...
Since it was new I suggested she call Taurus and have them fix it.. NO gauge would be strong enough to measure that pull - it hadda be in excess of 20#, easy...
I was surprised that my 640 printed less and carried more comfortably than my Shield did in the same type IWB holsters from the same maker, Kusiak.
Being a civilian, I don't see the need for quick one handed reloads or for using a hand gun as a club. It's simply a last chance do or die weapon. If I want to go pick a fight you won't notice my full size M&P9 on my war belt full of magazines due to the AR-15 I'm carrying.
Personally I prefer a semi auto for self defensive use. More rounds, easier to carry extra magazines than speed loaders and I can reload them faster
Certainly as a primary, but what about a pocket gun? Still semi-auto?
For me yes the semi is flatter and reloads faster for me than does the revolver and since I prefer 1911's the trigger pull is always better than a revolvers double action pull
Perhaps you missed that I was speaking of pocket guns.
Perhaps you missed the small 3" 1911's I can stick 1 in my pocket if I choose
You've got some big pockets. Just sayin'. A PM9 is all I can hide in a front pocket.
I figured out awhile back that my Ruger LCR/laser, in a Desantis Nemesis, will ride nicely in the RH cargo pocket of the thigh pocket on a pair of 5.11 pants, and looks much like a wallet in your pocket. Pretty good anti-carjacking rig. Really easy to access.
I should add the side pocket on the 5.11 shorts isn't tall enough for this setup.
Perhaps you missed the small 3" 1911's I can stick 1 in my pocket if I choose
You've got some big pockets. Just sayin'. A PM9 is all I can hide in a front pocket.
I figured out awhile back that my Ruger LCR/laser, in a Desantis Nemesis, will ride nicely in the RH cargo pocket of the thigh pocket on a pair of 5.11 pants, and looks much like a wallet in your pocket. Pretty good anti-carjacking rig. Really easy to access.
I should add the side pocket on the 5.11 shorts isn't tall enough for this setup.
A "anti-carjacking" rig is NOT a pistol in your right front pocket. If I'm in Dallas, Houston, or San Antonio, my Pistole is laying right beside me On Top of the Console of my F-250. And of course, mine is covered with a newspaper to be legally concealed in accordance with the TX CHL laws.
If you gotta dig your weapon out of your pocket, while the Carjacker is trying to drag your ass out of your vehicle, your all ready screwed! Better be ready long before that Oh [bleep] moment takes place! Just Sayin.
Of course the best way to avoid being Carjacked is common sense and avoidance. Ethier don't stop, or run the bad guy over with your truck.
A buddy of mine made a wrong turn in L.A. In a rental car several years ago & ended up in the Watts neighborhood, or probably the worst Hood in the U.S. He claimed he ran ever red light in the hood until he made it back to the HWY.
Perhaps you missed the small 3" 1911's I can stick 1 in my pocket if I choose
You've got some big pockets. Just sayin'. A PM9 is all I can hide in a front pocket.
I figured out awhile back that my Ruger LCR/laser, in a Desantis Nemesis, will ride nicely in the RH cargo pocket of the thigh pocket on a pair of 5.11 pants, and looks much like a wallet in your pocket. Pretty good anti-carjacking rig. Really easy to access.
I should add the side pocket on the 5.11 shorts isn't tall enough for this setup.
A "anti-carjacking" rig is NOT a pistol in your right front pocket. If I'm in Dallas, Houston, or San Antonio, my Pistole is laying right beside me On Top of the Console of my F-250. And of course, mine is covered with a newspaper to be legally concealed in accordance with the TX CHL laws.
If you gotta dig your weapon out of your pocket, while the Carjacker is trying to drag your ass out of your vehicle, your all ready screwed! Better be ready long before that Oh [bleep] moment takes place! Just Sayin.
Of course the best way to avoid being Carjacked is common sense and avoidance. Ethier don't stop, or run the bad guy over with your truck.
A buddy of mine made a wrong turn in L.A. In a rental car several years ago & ended up in the Watts neighborhood, or probably the worst Hood in the U.S. He claimed he ran ever red light in the hood until he made it back to the HWY.
quite a few years ago my wife and i flew into LAX late at night, and i rented a car. Made a wrong turn and ended up in watts, although i didn't know it at the time. What i did know is not liking the barricade of trashcans accross the road at around midnight. I just rammed them and kept on going. And did pretty much the same thing as to red lights.
Perhaps you missed the small 3" 1911's I can stick 1 in my pocket if I choose
You've got some big pockets. Just sayin'. A PM9 is all I can hide in a front pocket.
I figured out awhile back that my Ruger LCR/laser, in a Desantis Nemesis, will ride nicely in the RH cargo pocket of the thigh pocket on a pair of 5.11 pants, and looks much like a wallet in your pocket. Pretty good anti-carjacking rig. Really easy to access.
I should add the side pocket on the 5.11 shorts isn't tall enough for this setup.
A "anti-carjacking" rig is NOT a pistol in your right front pocket. If I'm in Dallas, Houston, or San Antonio, my Pistole is laying right beside me On Top of the Console of my F-250. And of course, mine is covered with a newspaper to be legally concealed in accordance with the TX CHL laws.
If you gotta dig your weapon out of your pocket, while the Carjacker is trying to drag your ass out of your vehicle, your all ready screwed! Better be ready long before that Oh [bleep] moment takes place! Just Sayin.
Of course the best way to avoid being Carjacked is common sense and avoidance. Ethier don't stop, or run the bad guy over with your truck.
A buddy of mine made a wrong turn in L.A. In a rental car several years ago & ended up in the Watts neighborhood, or probably the worst Hood in the U.S. He claimed he ran ever red light in the hood until he made it back to the HWY.
quite a few years ago my wife and i flew into LAX late at night, and i rented a car. Made a wrong turn and ended up in watts, although i didn't know it at the time. What i did know is not liking the barricade of trashcans accross the road at around midnight. I just rammed them and kept on going. And did pretty much the same thing as to red lights.
Good ole Common Sense. I'd of done the same thing, too. Rental Car Ins. is cheap,too
If you gotta dig your weapon out of your pocket, while the Carjacker is trying to drag your ass out of your vehicle, your all ready screwed! Better be ready long before that Oh [bleep] moment takes place! Just Sayin. .
The handgun is much more easily accessible than 3 o'clock on the R hip. So accessible, you can easily pull it out before you stop, which would pretty much be the plan in the "hood". CT lasers don't need to be aimed. You can't aim a handgun and drive a car at the same time, at least not well. I shoot some hoodrat, I ain't stoppin', I'm driving.
Perhaps you missed the small 3" 1911's I can stick 1 in my pocket if I choose
You've got some big pockets. Just sayin'. A PM9 is all I can hide in a front pocket.
I figured out awhile back that my Ruger LCR/laser, in a Desantis Nemesis, will ride nicely in the RH cargo pocket of the thigh pocket on a pair of 5.11 pants, and looks much like a wallet in your pocket. Pretty good anti-carjacking rig. Really easy to access.
I should add the side pocket on the 5.11 shorts isn't tall enough for this setup.
I've dropped a Glock 19 in my front pocket before, and they were just off the shelf Wranglers. The gun did print a bit but if you just keep your hand in the pocket, it was pretty much invisible. So I can see a sub-compact working for John. A bit on the heavy side, but it can work. I can easily pocket carry my Astra A70; only downside is the weight...it's an all steel pistol about the same size as a Kahr P9.
Still, the weight does make it awkward, so I typically carry the Cobra as a pocket gun.
I can slip my 2.5" 66 in my front pocket. With an untucked shirt you'd never know it's there. I prefer a gun in the pocket of my door or between the seat and the console, or barring those in crossdraw if I'm driving.
