So I have wanted a good rifle in .308 Winchester for years. To me this is the ultimate scroungers cartridge; blending power, availability, and diversity of components, as well as mild behavior when it comes to shoot-ability. I wanted the rifle to be something I could upgrade later so I didn�t want to spend too much money to start out, but I also wanted the initial rifle to be attractive and useful for its purpose before I upgraded it. For the last couple of years there just simply wasn't any rifle that I thought had the right blend of features and cost effectiveness. Then, about a month ago, I noticed Weatherby and Howa were both advertising their Vanguard and M1500 respectively for $399.

I admired the Vangaurd/1500 since back in the day when I worked at a gun store to pay my bills during college. Back then I think the thing that put me off was that I thought they didn't have a true short-action but instead had a modified bolt-stop and magazine spacer to make a standard length action serviceable for short cartridges.

Then a couple weeks ago I went to my home town and was making the rounds to my favorite old gun shops. On the shelf they had a Howa M1500 in .308 so I asked to look at it.

Things I liked about this rifle when I looked at it.
1. Of course I liked that it was $399
2. This was a M1500 and it was a true short action
3. Sako style extractor
4. Hogue Stock
5. Free-Floating Barrel
6. Adjustable Trigger
7. Fit and finish were very nice, especially compared to a Remington SPS, which would also cost more.
8. Since I worked at that gun shop the Howa/Vanguard rifles have gained a sterling reputation and have become very widely accepted.

The only thing I didn't like about the Howa was that, for the same price, it didn't come with Weatherby's 1.5 MOA guarantee. So I endeavored to find the Vanguard variety in .308 for the same price. Two weeks later, after not being able to find a gun store that carried the Vanguard in .308 who would give me the same $399 price if I did a special order, I decided it was better to stimulate my local economy rather than a corporate one and returned to my Local Gun Shop to purchase the M1500.

So for $399 for the rifle, plus $99 dollars for a Bushnell Trophy 3x9x40 (The Gun Shop threw in a set of Weaver rings and bases), and including Texas sales tax, I walked out the door with a complete shooting setup for $540.

As an aside, from past experience, I have found Bushnell Trophy scopes to be a great bargain for a budget scope. In the future when my optics budget is built up I intend to transfer the Bushnell to my 10/22 and put a higher quality scope with long range capability on my upgraded M1500.

To be sure I had some serious misgivings about the accuracy of my purchase but took it on faith that for the same price Howa would try to sell a product similar in quality to that of Weatherby with their Vanguard.

For the first range session I went to the range with a variety of factory loaded ammo (also all budget conscious). They were as follows.

Federal 150 gr. Power Shock for $16
Federal 165 gr. Fusion for $24
Winchester 180 gr. Super-X Power Point for $20

There was absolutely no wind at the range and I started off with the Federal 150�s at 50 yards for initial sighting in. My accuracy misgivings began to materialize when I, over the course of two 5 shot strings at 50 yards, the rifle strung them with no apparent rhyme or reason.

I decided I�d switch to the Winchester 180�s and immediately saw improvements. After getting zeroed at 50 yards with the 180�s I moved the target out to 100 yards for some accuracy testing. Initially I was cleaning the bore after every 5 shots, but started to clean after every 3 when I started shooting with the 180�s at 100 yards (mostly to give me something to do while I let the barrel cool).

On 3 consecutive strings of fire the 180�s printed groups of 1.5 inches from a completely clean bore. My panic over the accuracy of the 150 gr. load began to subside. So after 3 strings of fire, and without cleaning the bore before proceeding, I decided and give the 165 gr. Fusion load a try.

I was astonished when the first 3 shots with the 165 gr. load grouped at approx. 0.71 center-to-center. (group size estimated by holding a dime up to the group and aligning its edges with the centers of the three separate bullet holes.)

I decided to investigate further. I cleaned the bore and let it cool and decided that for the next course of fire I would fire 4 shots instead of three because the rifle had previously shown a propensity to throw the first shot from a clean bore approximately 1 inch high perfectly above center of aim. The first shot did exactly as expected printing 1 inch above the expected point of impact. The following 3 shots printed a perfect clover-leaf pattern with the center of the pattern being exactly 1 inch below the impact of the first �fowling shot.� I love it when a rifle is consistent and everything goes perfectly according to plan! The overall size of the 3 shot group was estimated at 0.80 from center-to-center by aligning the edges of a nickel with the center�s of all three bullet holes. At that moment, especially considering its performance with low cost ammo, I fell in love with the accuracy and consistency of this rifle.

There were a couple of things that I decided I should change about this rifle after shooting it. First, the trigger is set pretty heavy from the trigger and is gritty before the sear breaks. This made consistent shooting form from a concrete bench require diligent concentration. I cant imagine it would be very easy to achieve consistent form with this trigger while shooting in field positions. Therefore, the first thing I must do is clean up the trigger. Luckily the M1500 comes with a somewhat-adjustable trigger. So while I may be able to adjust it for weight and make it serviceable, it may prove more difficult to adjust to creep and seer engagement to eliminate the gritty take-up on this trigger. Ultimately I may have to go with an aftermarket trigger to achieve satisfactory results. The Second thing I am going to do is have the action glass bedded to ensure consistent engagement with the action and make the stock more ridged under recoil. I don�t think there is any way this could hurt and I believe it may actually even help make the rifle more consistent thereby shrinking the size of my groups.

One might argue that these two upgrades kind blow my budget minded justification for purchasing this rifle. But, when you look at it, for about $70 I can have both the trigger worked and the stock bedded, and after doing those two things the cost of the rifle is just now starting to approach that of an unmodified Remington SPS which would probably have to have those same things done to it also. Further, doing these two things is within my aforementioned spirit of upgrading the rifle as I go along and the budget increases.

In Conclusion, I would Highly recommend the Howa/Vanguard line of rifles, at the current price, to anyone who is either looking for an awesome hunting rifle for not much cash or anyone who is looking for a quality foundation upon which to build a high quality custom turn-bolt.

I�ll try to get some pictures of the rifle up as well as some pictures of the targets so that any skeptics can see the proof in the pudding

Cheer�s All.

UrsusFamiliaris -
First, welcome to the Campfire!

Congrats on your new rifle - it sound like it will shoot well with the proper ammo and it sounds like you've already found soemthing it likes.

Inexpensive guns that shoot well are always welcome and are much more desirable than expensive guns that don't.

A hardy welcome to you! Thanks for the review it was very interesting and well written. I have never owned a Howa, but have owned a couple of Vanguards that were great rifles.

Good review. I have never heard anything bad about the Howas. And though I don't own one yet, I have handled several in the guns stores. To my eyes, the workmanship/machining are a significant step above a 700.

John

Welcome to the 'fire!

Thanks for the review.

Great review, a good read. One of my hunting pardners bought a new Howa 1500 stainless/synthetic in 7mm REM MAG last winter (older version with two step safety). The rifle had a terrible trigger, but he had a local gunsmith adjust it (about $65.00 IIRC), now it shoots great and the trigger is excellent. You may be able to have it adjusted without buying a new trigger.

What a great first post.
I know of a guy that bought one of the Howa's in 243 for his son and liked it so much he kept it for himself.
Another guy bought one of the Weatherby Compacts(two stocks come with it and has a 20 inch barrel) in .308 for his small frame son equipped with managed recoil ammo.
This kid is deadly with that rifle!!
On the topic of that Bushnell Trophy scope.
My brothers wife bought one three years ago for him and i warned him repeatedly about using a cheap Asian scope on his only hunting rifle but so far his 30-06 has not croaked it yet.
He liked his so much he ordered one and put it on his old Mossberg 800 in 243 as a back up deer rifle.

Oh yea..Welcome.

Welcome - One lesson here is Federal Fusion ammo. I have tried it in 3 calibers and all three shot MOA or better.

Dave

Dave, I've had quite a few friends buy a new gun, come to my house with a couple boxes of Fusion shells for practice purpose's and get acquainted with the new gun. After shooting, most don't switch from the Fusions as the accuracy is very good. I've obtained much once fired brass this way as most don't reload.

Rob

Where did you find the H1500 for $399, my brother in law is looking for one in TX. Thanks for the help!

Well I have seen Weatherby Vanguards in Walmarts for that price and Howa M1500's at Academy Sports and Outdoors Shops in Lubbock and Abilene.

The rifle I picked up was from "The Shootin' Shop" in Abilene, gunsmith's name is Doyle, but I think it is a state-wide promotional offer. However a lot of smaller privately owned local gun shops don't seem to be taking part in the promotion, which is a shame because it means that big coorporations will get the buisness rather than them. I just got lucky that my local shop was taking part in the promotion.

Here's another Howa fan. I watched a barely used 1500/tupperware stocked .338WM for several months at an area Gander Mountain a few years ago until it dropped to $199...after which it came home with me (grin). I restocked the rifle with a Boyd's "JRS" laminate, mounted an Ebay Leupold M8-4X, and, after a lot of bedding experimentation, full-length bedded the rifle. With near max loads, it will put 3, 250 gr. Hornadys into about an inch @ 100 yards. (Only a little larger groups with 250 Nosler Partitions). Haven't had the opportunity to shoot on a range with longer targets. The trigger on my rifle is nice enough to preclude replacement.

Mine's a Vanguard .257. I put it in a Bell & Carlson Medalist that had two TEETS in the forward barrel channel, I thought about removeing them but figured I could always do that later if needed. I also put a Timney on it along with a "cheapo" Nikon buckmasters. The rifle shoots well under moa with the factory TSX's. It's the first time I've shot factory rounds out of any of my rifles in a loooong time. I was & am impressed.

IMHO they are the best value out there for the $$.I own 5 Vanguards and 1 S&W...always on the lookout for more.

Here is another long post. A forum member messaged me with a simple question, to which I gave an answer which was much too complicated. Without disclosing the identity of the gentleman who messaged me, I have included some pertenent parts of my response. It is pretty much a ramble on capitalistic production theory and why I wound up buying the Howa instead of the Vanguard. In it there are also some mysteries which some of you here might be able to shed some light on. So if you are interested, here it is, for your reading pleasure, feel free to respond with your wisdom or correct me where you see fatal flaws.

Back when I worked at a gun shop I heard all sorts of stories about how the Vanguards were supposed to be more accurate than the Howa's. None of them were ever substantiated though. One of the stories was that the regular production Howa barreled actions are taken of the line and are then put through a regimine of barrel straightening to ensure they meet the accuracy garuntee. Another was that only those Howa's that exibited 1.5 moa accuracy after test firing were taken and to have the bolt fluted and marked weatherby. Whether those stories are true or not is a mystery to me.

What I did know though, is that Weatherby and Howa are both marketing their rifle for $399. So what I had to do to justify buying the Howa was invest a little faith in capitalistic theory. My theory being that if two companies are going to market an almost identical product for the same price, one should be of the same quality as the other. Otherwise Howa would risk creating a bad reputation for themselves and would loose profit in the long run because if the Weatherby's were really that much better nobody would want to buy a Howa for the same price. If the Howa's were inferior then Howa would have to run a promotion running the M1500 for say $50 less.

So here is basically why I bought the Howa instead of the Vanguard.

1.Faith that for a similar price Howa would produce a comodity of similar quality as the Vanguard.

2.It comes equiped with a free floating Houge overmould stock. Vanguards I believe are not free floated. The houge feels better to me than the Vanguard stock because it is lightere, has crazy grip (almost sticky) and doesnt have a monte carlo cheek peice. Also, I know the length of pull is the same on the Howa and the Vanguard, but for some reason any time I shouldered a vanguard I felt stretched way out of my normal shooting position, like a kid holding his dad's rifle. I cannot however quantify why I had this sensation.

3. It was available in my Local Gun Shop in the caliber I wanted, whereas to get the weatherby I would have had to pay more to have it special ordered.

4. I got to stimulate my loal economy rather than a corporate one.

It may be that I just got lucky and the rifle I picked up just happened to be one of those that offered incredible accuracy even in the absence of extensive quality control, accurizing, test firing, and a garuntee.

However, it may also be possible that Howa makes such a quality product that it is easy and economical for Weatherby to contract the production of their rifles from Howa because a large majority of their product consistently produce small groups. If so that would mean that it is easy for Weatherby to garuntee accuracy, and would have a minimum of products rejected for being unfit for the garuntee. This would make test firing only a formality to assure that the product fit the garuntee. It would also mean that Weatherby would not have to incurr extra cost for the price of accurizing, quality testing, hand picking exceptional specimens, etc. It might neccisarily drive the consumer price up if they did have to take those measures. This may also explain why they are marketed for the same price.

It's kinda like the question of how many licks it takes to get to the centere of a tootsie pop. "The world may never know." My mind (as all men's) may go to incredible lenghts to justify itself, but to me,the latter theory seems more inline with the kind of Japanese capitalism and production theory Americans have become familiar with in other areas such as the automotive industry.

However, there is something very reassuring about a garuntee and a factory test group though.

Even for all my rambling about capitalistic production theory, If I had it all to do aver again, and I had the choice between a Vanguard and a Howa in the same caliber setting right next to each other for the same price, I probably would have walked out the store with the Vanguard instead.

For whatever it's worth.

The only difference is the name on the side of the receiver. This may become an issue if you ever decide to part with your rifle as some folks have heard or weatherby rifles, but have not heard of howa. I would hazard a guess that most all folks who mess with guns know they are the same, but there are the folks who go out to buy themselves a deer rifle with little individual knowlege of the products available. They have seen a few hunting shows on television, and maybe read a magazine at a barber shop. They stand a better chance of having heard of a Weatherby than a Howa.

Name recognition is all it comes down to.

Welcome to the 'Fire, and congrats on a fine new rifle. I have never owned a Howa, but I'm going to try one some day. I continue to hear good things.

I'll second the Fusion quality - this is fantastic factory ammo - I've never had it fail to shoot accurately, and use it in 243, 25-06, 270 Win, 300 WSM, 7-08 - it is submoa in Remingtons, Tikkas, Winchesters and Kimbers for me in these cartridges.

One other note on the Howas - along with the good things I hear elsewhere, Steelhead is building lots of his rifles on Howas, and he has a rifle or two and has burned some powder playing and hunting, and hasn't babied them (understatement...grin) - I believe he's pretty sold on them, and that's a pretty good recommendation in my book.

DJ

I think they are great rifles. I have a vanguard 22-250 that will do between .5 and .7 groups 4,000fps at a time.

while watching "the hunting channel" i saw a national (as opposed to one of my local advertisers) tv commercial a couple hours ago hawking weatherby's at 399.00 in selected calibers. i'm sure it was for the vanguards, which i think are good rifles. i remember reading an article in a gun rag maybe 2 years ago which tested 5 different factory rifles (all in 30-06). i believe the author also shot 5-6 different factory loads. seems the article was "best factory rifles for under 500.00" or something along those lines. the vanguard shot the best groups, fwiw. while i have never owned a weatherby, i am sure one could get a vanguard in 30-06 and hunt all of n/a for the rest of his life. ymmv............

I think the Howa 1500/ Weatherby Vanguard is one of the great sleepers out there. I am a lefty, so I don't own any. However, my father in law and several friends have them (some on my recommendation). All are tack drivers with preferred ammo.

I actually bought one for my pastor as a Christmas gift from the church a couple of years ago. It was a closeout a WalMart for $250 while they were closing a small store and opening a Super WalMart. I bet you don't see many churches doing that today.

Leon

I have a standard vanguard in 257, like it lots, and the only thing I would wish for from that package, would be is less weight.


Later

Good thread, I always appreciate a good value. I see that Joe's Sports has the blued Howa with a Nikko Nighteater scope on sale for $399. I don't know much about that scope but I am curious about the Howa's Hogue Overmolded stock. Is it the pricier model with the internal aluminum frame?

Good question olywa, been thinking of getting a 22-250 Howa 1500 compact model. Any one know about that one?


Later...

I took mine apart the day I got it. It does not have the internal frame but it does have alluminum pillars around the stock screws.

The only complaint I have is about my stock. It seems to be pretty loosly inletted. But I have a gun smith that will glass bed it for $35. So I plan on fixing that problem here really quick.

I mentioned earlier that my rifle didnt like 150'gr bullets. I'm thinking now that it might be because when I shot them the rifle was brand new and not seated itself well into the stock. After firing 180' gr. bullets I noticed the tang had set farther back firmly aginst the tang inlet in the stock. When I took it apart It would not set back into the position it was in after firing. So I, next time I fire, bet my first few groups will be a little erratic until it settles back in. Like I said though, once I glass bed it that shouldn't be a problem. Even though I have nothing to complain about, I think it will likely improve my accuracy overall.

I have 3 Howa's, 2 SS/syn, a .22-250 and a 7mmWSM, one Blue/syn in .300 Win and a Weatherby Vanguard, Blue/wood in .300WBY. All are fine, accurate rifles and all were bought new except for the scoped .300 Win and it was like new. The most expensive was the WalMart Vanguard at $379. Without out a doubt, I believe that the Howa is the best bang for the buck that is available out there today. Good luck.

Howa's and Vanguards may be good rifles for cheap but a Smith & Wesson bolt action will shoot circles around any Howa or Vanguard.

FVA:

Hmmm, I have a Heavy bbl. Smith & Wesson 1500 Deluxe in 22-250. After glass bedding the action, and free floating the bbl, it shoots sub 1/2" groups.

Strange thing though, it's made by Howa,

Richard

I shoulda added a (grin)

My brother has a 1500 Howa,.30-06, wood stock model that is scary accurate with the Federal Fusions, as well.

I got my son a Vanguard in 270 that Walmart was closing out for 250.00. It had the tupperware stock, wasn't floated , and had a heavy trigger. He loves it and shoots 3 shoot 1MOA groups with it. I got him to reload for it and it shoots the same 1 MOA groups. I want to float the barrel, bed it and adjust the trigger. He doesn't want me to mess with it, unless I get him a new thumbhole stock. He saw the add for the 1500s with the boyds thumbhole. It kills deer with his longest shot at 275 yards. It shot better out of the box than my M70 30-06.

I bought a HOWA in .270 for a friend who I owned a favor a few years ago. Only paid $310 back then. He loves the accuracy and carries it 90% of the time. I personally would remove the plastic and find a nice stock, but if it ain't broke . . .

stumpy

reminds me of the t3/fusion thing

add basic no frills T3 or 1500 in any caliber and add fusion ammo...

accuracy promises are great if you invested 2k in your gun. however, i feel that if you popped 4 bills for a budget rifle with a promise that is all you can hope for. add shipping it back and forth and time lost to find out anything is a PIA and not worth the effort.. i have not heard of a problem with 1500's or the t3's shooting excellent out of the box.. however! i do know of at least one brand of rifle costing more than TWICE as much with NO promises (k#%&%r)(i wont say what brand ) that wont function, much less shoot.

there are buys out there and i think you scored one of them..

congrats and welcome to the fire.....

woofer

also, for anyone interested in one of the vangaurds they did a special run for the northeast which gets you green stock with webbing, blued standard 20 " config for $499. 308, 7-08, 243 and 22-250. the stocks are supposedly higher end stocks that weatherby used on a more expensive model a few years back and decided to package them for a northeast only run.... you can call weatherby to verify, i am just saying what the rep said at the shot show....

ffl pard wants $25 to ship.... just an FYI.....

woofer

The Northeast edition handled well to me, and I almost purchased one in .308 when I held it!

I was going to mention that in a post but you beat me to it woofer!

FMP

Thanks all for your responses. I am going to try to go to the range this week and get some good pics of the rifle and to try some different ammo types. Hopefully the results will be as pleasing as last week's. I'll post the pics for your viewing pleasure.

The troubling thing is that this rifle seems to have inspired me. All of a sudden I find myself considering downsizing or doing away with other hobbies, in which I have a lot of interest but only minimal participation, in order to finance handloading and regular practice with this rifle. I also keep contemplating future upgrades in optics, stock, etc. and Have already blown my budget by replacing the stock trigger unit with one from Timminey (Excelent BTW). I even find myself hoping that I am able to shoot enough to wear out the barrel so that I can justify putting a a premium grade barrel on it in the future. When things all shake out I would probably have been better off to just buy a custom rifle but my budget wouldn't have allowed that.

I don't think these feelings are so much a product of the rifle itself, but rather the cartridge it fires. It's simply that this rifle is just a lot more fun, and consistent to shoot than my 7mm magnum. Even though and am no whimp and Im good with my 7mm, the 308, because it is so enjoyable, has inspired me to shoot any time I get the chance rather than just when I am preparing for a hunt. Hopefully this will make me a better marksman no matter what rifle I have in hand.

My vision for this rifle in the future is a Custom Heavy Sporter with components of high enough quality, and with which I have practiced enough, that I can reliably and ethically engage targets out to 600yds (maybe further) and game out to 350.

Disclaimer: I hunt mostly white tail and the reason I don't really want to shoot much farther on game than 350 is {1} ethics and {2} I have found from past experience that judging deer much past 300 yards gets to be a bit unreliable for me unless I have a spotting scope; which I am definately not going to be toating around in the field unless I have a partner to serve as a spotter and help carry gear.

Anticdote: The my 350 yd maximum is a product of an experience that I had. I once wasted a buck tag on a spike I thought was a doe after watching he/she/it for ten minutes at 300yds. Turned out those ears were really good at hiding spikes at that range. That was years ago and I am a lot more careful now, but still It made an impression that things arent always what they seem at longer ranges. Conversely, you can tell a monster buck from 1000yds and I have been able to identify them that far away. But even then I feel that I should make sure to show respect by getting close enough to make a reliable shot. 300 yards seems to be a good number for me right now given my skill level, the accuracy of my 7mm, and my ability to judge game at extended distances.

Good choice, good buy.

Awe...the Smith is the same rifle as the Howa.

LOL

Is was good enough for Nosler to build a custom rifle around.

Then I'll never own a Nosler rifle either. Who would pay that kind of money for a Howa?

I wouldn't but that weren't the point.

When the Howa/Vanguard topic was discussed previously on here it was mentioned that the Vanguard is made from a slightly different type of stainless steel, one which is more rust resistant.

I have a Howa SS with the Hogue stock, and it shoots very well indeed but its not very rust resistant in the wet weather. In fact my rifles with blued barrel / actions are actually more rust resistant..

Howa's are made from stainress steel.......

???

Some are blued.

Just to be clear, I have a Howa in stainless steel and I have noticed its not particularly rust resistant when compared to say a Ruger M77 Allweather or a couple of blued CM rifles I also own..

As I said, apparently Weatherby specified a different grade of SS for their Vanguards and its supposed to be more rust resistant. Its not a huge issue, but were I buying another 1500 rifle, it might sway me to go the Vanguard route...

Didn't weatherby stop making stainless vanguards?

If you are willing to take the Vanguard instead of a Howa Academy keeps the blued ones in stock for $399 year round and normally will put them on sale (at least here in TX they do) in the spring after hunting season around February each year.

I bought one last year for $299 in February.

no they have not stopped making them permanently. just catching up to blued model orders, so they put the SS versions on hold for now.

Pete E. - I own Stainless HOWA's, Vanguards, and Ruger All Weather's while living in South Florida. While not "rust proof" they are "rust restistant" to a far greater degree than blued chrome moly steel. Despite the specific SS formula they do need a rub-down, every now and again , with an oily rag. When Hurricane "Andrew" blew thru here in August 1992 I was without power/AC for a very long time. You could watch the mold grow on leather (and bread), rust on steel. IF intended for use in the Southeast, I use SS no matter the formula. Believe this true for any humid clime i.e. Alaska coastal, Everglades, etc. Regards, Homesteader.

Bugger! Perhaps I was sold an unblued CM in error??

The only other thing I can attribute its tendecy to rust is was to using Wipeout Patch Out and Accelerater for cleaning..

Still use it, but now wipe metal work down thats it's touched with a rag or patch covered in solvent, and then wipe over with an oily rag/patch..Patchout is supposed to contain a rust inhibitor that means you don't need to oil your barrel; with the Howa this approach was fatal!

Regards,

Peter

PeteE - Thanks for your comments concerning Wipeout. Perhaps a chemical reaction between a product component and the steel. I've just recently purchased Wipeout and will pay attention for side effects when using it on the SS rifles. Presuming HOWA notified of this incident, I'd be curious about their response. Putting myself in HOWA's shoes...I would want to know about it i.e. steel not to spec. etc. You may re-call SAKO having SS issues years ago. Regards, Homesteader.

This is making me think about going to the local big name sports store that has single .257 Bee Vanguard. Be a hard sell around here. Maybe if I was 3 $100s under the manager's nose he might move up the spring sale.

BTW to the OP. Try the vanilla Powershoks again. I didn't try them until I'd shot 100+ rounds of Fed GM and other premium ammo in my LTR. But when I did, cuz they cost $13.97 a box at Wally, they consistently put 3 in .5.

Coldcase1984 - your idea is worth the shot. Amazing how the sight of those bills, just sooo close, exerts influence. Especially, this close to months end. Regards, Homesteader.

Hoping to show one of those 150s to the ribcage of a whitetail this afternoon...

The Vanguard is simply a rebadgded Howa. Made on the same line, with the same components different roll mark on the barrel is all.

There is something physically different on the Vanguard.

At one point I believe they used different safeties but I think they use the same now. Might have been slightly different fluting on the bolt body too.

There is something else...but let Swampy answer...he's knows all about it.

Price

Nope...and by-the-way...the rollmark is on the action...not on the barrel.

That's important

It really is. It's evidence that one does not know which end is up. And is very factual about it.

If you feel that I care what anyone thinks....think some more.

I have no feelings vested in the matter...and rational thinking is not your strong suit.

My only vested intrest is truth. On some Howa/Vanguards the safties are different.

The Vaguard has an different bolt shroud than the Howa. It is solid at the back. This adds more weight to the firing pin assembly (a disadvantage) but it gives it a clean look (if you like that).

Because one cannot tell the Vanguard in is the cocked position by looking at the back of the bolt assembly (because of the different shroud), the Vanguard has extend metal on the "cocking" piece (different in it's length to the Howa) so that one can visually see that the firing pin is in the fire position.

Minor differences are the fact that standard barrel length on the Vanguard is 24" vs 22" on the Howa, the Vanguard has minor fluting on the bolt, and the fact that the Vanguard uses slotted head actions screws whereas the current Howas use hexhead. Not to mention the fact that the rollmark is on the action not on the barrel.

I'm sure your're a great guy Swampman...(in person)...but you really come of as someone talking above his intelligence on the board. Not that you care.

Welcome and great post. I too have found the Federal Fusion ammo. to be very accurate in all my .308's (except one). I use the 150 gr. loads and have gotten exceptional accuracy except from an old Mossberg 800 that I bought for giggles.

Years ago I bought some "Monarch" 150 gr. .308 loads. This is a store brand for Academy in Texas. They shot so bad, I used them for plinking and for fouling shots at the range just to clean the barrel. They were absolutely terrible for accuracy in both my other two .308's and I considered them trash. The 150 grain Fusions shined. In the Mossberg, the first three times I shot the Monarch loads they clustered in a nice little 3/4" triangle and the Fusions scattered all over. I guess I am a liar about the Monarch stuff. Go figure!