I've been kinda looking around for a do-all rifle here lately, and have more or less narrowed the field to the Weatherby Vanguard S2, Ruger American or maybe a Tikka T3. The Tikka wouldn't be in the running as its priced well over the other two, except that I'm pretty sure I saw one on the shelf at the LGS for $619. It was a 7mm-08, which is one of the calibers I'm considering, and I saw it and thought to myself that it was cheap. It didn't really hit me till a day later that it was REALLY cheap.They generally go for over $800 here. The shop is in the process of moving, and won't open till tomorrow so I can't go and see if I'm delusional or if I saw correctly.
The Weatherby I can get for $650, and the Ruger for $500. I'm looking at either a 7/08 or one of the 6.5's. Shot a friends Tikka in 6.5x55 this weekend, and its pretty nice minus the chintzy mag. What would you recommend,and why?

Remmie 700 ADL, 7-08, Talley's, Leupie. Save your pennies for a McMillan. Live happily ever after.

Schit really is that simple.

No.

Those three...in the order you listed them.....

Interesting. Prices being even, what is it that you prefer in the VG 2 over the T3? Seems like a bargain to me too,accuracy guarantee and all that, but it doesn't seem to get nearly the press the Tikka does. Maybe just cause its a bit heavier?

If you like the Vanguard, and want a 6.5x55, you can get it in a Howa. It is the same gun, minus a different bolt shroud. Usually cheaper too.

I really like my Tikka SS lite.
If you're on a budget, look at the thomson center venture. Very accurate rifle, guarantee MOA. It's a little heavier than the tikka but shooter for sure.

+1 on the Howa

Good to know, thanks. I didn't realize Howa offered different chambering options than the VG's. I don't know of anyone around here who sells them, but I'll see if I can find one online.

What bullets are you planning to shoot? The Vanguard twist rates are rather unimpressive in most chamberings, so that may affect the decision.

I've really enjoyed the T3 as well as the RAR. The RAR is priced a lot lower and has very similar feel and function.

Not sure,never had a 7mm before. Was thinking maybe a 120gr TTSX might be a good all around bullet. Honestly the rifle will probably go on one elk hunt a year, and only get used if I can't get it done with the bow. Other than that, the wife might use it for whitetails a couple times. Heaviest I'd think about shooting would be 140's, can't see a reason to go heavier than that. Haven't checked the twist on them, but would 140's be an issue?

I put a Timney in my RAR and it goes from pounds to what feels like ounces, and anywhere in-between. Timney advertises 1.5 lb, but mine feels much lighter. Still need to get a scale on it.

I've had (5) Tikklers, all had nice trigger except one Super Light. Fired a bud's the other day and it seemed a little on the mooshy side. No comparison to the Timney I have in the RAR.

Nope. Any of those options would shoot most 120-140 gr bullets without issue.

I have no experience with the other two, but my Tikka is hands down the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. Not finicky either, it just shoots. I would be more interested in the RAR if the stocks weren't so flimsy.

Supposedly Ruger upgraded the stocks sometime this winter to make them stiffer. The forend now has a cross-hatch pattern of reinforcing.

I presume that's the Boyds stock on your RAR. Do you have any more photos, like of the whole thing?

Was it a good fit, or need a lot of work?

Thanks.

+1. My T3s are twisted right. I bought them before the prices started going up. I would go with a VG on anything not needing fast twist. I have no experience with the RAR, but it would be hard to beat for the $ from what have seen and read.

The Ruger is a true short action. Every T3 is the same action size.

Its the Prairie Hunter. Don't have a pic of the whole thing but you can see more of it below.

It was a little tight on the port side of the channel (might be the rifle), the mag catch needed a washer under it, the catch needed a trim, and the mag stops were more like splinters rather than stops. All easy stuff, and still a good deal for what you get compared to the milk-jug stock.

In hindsight, I should have gotten stippling added as its slick.

You asked for opinions and these folks will tell you what they think...whether it is right for you or not is something only you can decide.

I have owned damn near everything the VG and Tikka. Not the RAR as it felt like a POS. The VG shot great but never felt good and was toward the heavy side. The Tikka is cheap feeling but shoots great and is very light. I fixed the feel by painting the stock with the Tan flat stuf with grit in it. Now it looks, feels and shoots great. Put a good scope on and I'm happy. Pick the one that feels the best to you and spend your money. Good Luck!

It doesn't work that way.

OP asks question, gets suggestion (notice mine wasnt even on the list) then is shamed into buying what he doesn't want, and fits in with the crowd. Or what Stick says, which is generally well thought out, but against the masses.

You must be new.

Weatherby uses Howa actions to build the Vanguard. All parts interchange, but the Vanugard uses a different safety, barrel, stock and trigger. They are similar, but not the same. FWIW, I prefer the Howa. I like the rifles,had both, but they are overweight for my uses. Get one scoped and you are talking about 9+ lbs, maybe closer to 10 lbs depending on the scope and mounts.

The Tikka or Ruger can come in under 7 lbs scoped if you choose carefully. Both are more accurate than the Howa/Vanguards I've owned. I like both for what they are, budget rifles that shoot very well. I'd save the money and buy the Ruger personally, but all 3 can be good rifles.

Ok, have it your way. You're the one sniping...I offered an opinion. The OP should buy what feels good to him. Took you so little time to offer your criticism of someone else...

50+ years of hunting experience say not new. But, I forgot that you really did not offer advice...

The wimpy bolt stop has kept me from owning Howa/VG, but many people never have a problem. I've asked around and more than a few here have pulled the bolt clear out of the receiver when running the action hard. When I run the bolt on game, my brass damn near goes into orbit

I've had Tikkler safeties click "off"... if you're prone to carrying one up the pipe its something to think about. Never had a case or primer let loose in one, but there isn't much in the Tikka design to contain or divert gas.

It was just a joke............

This is the Tikka gas system. What about it is inadequate?

"The receiver ring has a single gas port in the left side which aligns with a hole in the bolt head to vent escaping gas out to the side. The bolt body has no ports to direct escaping gas downward into the magazine well. Gas entering the firing pin hole that reaches the rear of the action is blocked by the solid rear wall of the bolt sleeve."

That just describes gas entering the bolt body and getting vented through a single port.

What happens when gas enters the left lug raceway? Pops the plastic cork?

Bullshit...the plastic "cork" as you call it is just cosmetic. Obviously you have not taken a bolt apart or you would not be spewing this nonsense.

Easy test... stick the nozzle from your compressor into the Tikkler muzzle and see where the air exits. It comes straight down the left lug raceway and around the plastic cork at the shooter's face and eye. Now this is only 120 psi and not 60k+ psi, so its not a scientific test but I suspect hot gas from a ruptured case will follow a similar path.

Better yet take the cork off the bolt, reinsert bolt into action and take a pic for us looking down the left lug raceway. Maybe shine a light down the bore. I don't own any Tikklers anymore or else I'd do it for you.

Even more better...

Tell us what stops gas traveling down the left lug raceway?

I'm looking forward to you educating us on the Tikkler gas handling. Or are you just going spew insults with no information?

And I agree that the cork is just cosmetic.

Looking forward to pics and explanation.

Thanks,

Jason

"The receiver ring has a single gas port in the left side which aligns with a hole in the bolt head to vent escaping gas out to the side. The bolt body has no ports to direct escaping gas downward into the magazine well. Gas entering the firing pin hole that reaches the rear of the action is blocked by the solid rear wall of the bolt sleeve."

It has been explained to you by another poster on this thread. Please provide proof of a Tikka injuring a shooter or blowing up because of action design.

Let me explain it again, that quote describes the gas handling for gas entering the firing pin hole. A ruptured case is going to send gas down the raceway.

How does it stop the gas going down the raceway, or are you just going to avoid the question?

No. A scientific test would be to do the same with an expanded case fired in that chamber and the primer pocket open, as would be in a over pressure situation.

Your "test" isn't testing real conditions.

Do the same "test" on any bolt action and the results will be similar.

And, a ruptured case will vent down the bore if the bore is not blocked.

Name a rifle other then a Weatherby Mark V that keeps gas from hitting the shooters face when sending gas down either one of the the raceways. The back of the tikka firing pin assembly fits in the bolt with minimum tolerance, that makes the bolt safer not the plastic shroud. You were implying that the Tikka design was unsafe, I asked you to provide proof.

Not quite David. If you put compressed air down the barrel of a Savage, the front baffle sends that air out the left and right ports.

Let me give you some examples of gas handling for the left raceway:

1. Mauser 98 - c-collar, and a 90-degree flange at the end of the bolt.

2. Savage - as mentioned front baffle, and a rear baffle on bolt.

3. Rem 700 - bolt nose inside of barrel breech.

4. Win 70 (newer) and MRC - baffle attached to bolt body that rests in left raceway.

If so, why do some rifles have designs to handle stray gas in the left lug raceway?

Again, I ask the original question, "What stops gas from traveling down the left lug raceway in a Tikka?"

Savage. And as stated, I'm not talking about the gas entering the firing pin.

Please answer the question,

"What stops gas from traveling down the left lug raceway in a Tikka?"

Comparing a Savage with a Weatherby Mark V in the gas handling department. That is quite rich.

There is no problem with gas traveling up the leftside bolt rail since there is a precise fit between shroud and the receiver. Since the cartridge is well supported in the chamber , the chances of a rupture are NIL anyway. Please list out all the Tikka failures you have found on the internet. While you are at it list out the Tikklers trigger failures as well.

What shroud?! Like I wrote earlier, take the plastic off and take a pic for us. I'm open to learning but want to see it.

And what does the trigger have to do with anything?

Go down to a dealer that sells T3's and look at them yourself.

Are you going to find a story about a T3 catastrophic event ?


've had Tikkler safeties click "off"... if you're prone to carrying one up the pipe its something to think about. Never had a case or primer let loose in one, but there isn't much in the Tikka design to contain or divert gas.
Bullshit story by someone that never owned a T3, a waste of time.

4th finished his 5th, now he's ranting about 3's....





































Again.

Some are slow to learn

Mas Tikkuila....


Someone find a wind tunnel or blow smoke down the tube. Lotsa smoke blowers around.

I've owned (5) Tikka T3 rifles in the past and no longer own any.

I asked you "what keeps gas from going down the left raceway", as this has turned into a discussion of rifle "design". You come back with questions about internet stories of blown up rifles and trigger failure. And ramble on about Witherbees. Then you state that gas handling doesn't matter!

All to avoid the question?

Finally you answer, "the shroud". What shroud? The plastic one that you said was cosmetic?!

Come on, tell us what shroud you are referencing.

You're going to dig yourself a hole going 'round and 'round in circles avoiding the question.

I am sure the OP really appreciates ALL of this.

I know you're a Tikkler lover so I understand your frustration.

There are things to like about Tikklers. The single-stack feed is slick, generally very accurate, decent trigger, stiff stock for the price range, etc. Add Warne rings with steel lug and grooved receiver and you've got a decent rifle. Never said they were a bad rifle.

Do Sako's have the same/similar gas down the left raceway that bothers you thing?

No idea but have a co-worker that's been having problems with a newer 7RM Sako. When things slow down I'll help him get it dialed-in for medium range... if I can... and have a look.

Tikka gas handling isn't a deal breaker, just something to factor into the overall equation. Denial isn't the same as an informed decision though.

Just finished helping a bud with his 7RM Tikkler last weekend (168 Burger). T3 Lite with 3-9x Viper...

That buddy has been in the dumps over his T3 Tikkler so when we worked up that load and shot it at 490y he was thrilled. He owned that hillside that day

Ha! Well truth be told I'm not sure what to do now. The whole reason for this was that I have a .308 Vanguard of the old type that a friend gave me. He couldn't get it to shoot for chit, and said I could keep it. I cut and recrowned the barrel, as the crown didn't look good. Still didn't shoot. Tried a bunch of different loads without success. I determined I would get it to shoot at least halfway decent, to the point where I didn't feel bad about selling it to someone and send it down the road. Proceeds were to go towards one of the rifles in question.

I decided to try redoing the bedding,even though it looked good. I dug it out with a Dremel, and just for kicks I shot it. It shot better than it had been, by far. So, I dug out the remaining bedding and did a quick bedding job on it. Got home tonight and took it apart. Turns out PAM is not a great release agent. Had no ammo left, but had some Hornady 130's on the bench and some Varget handy, so real quick loaded up 4 rounds. I had a target set up at about 60 yards where I had been shooting it before, and the best it had done was about 2 inches. I fired one, tightened up the action screws and fired a quick 3 shot group, with all bullets touching. Sooo...now I have to get some proper bullets, mount a real scope and see whats what. I even skipped stopping in at the LGS on the way home so I could do some quick testing and verify that it had to be sold. Maybe it'll only shoot so-so with heavier bullets though, and I can still sell it and buy a new rifle...

Maybe that big hole where the bolt release sits will spew off gas......


Gosh.

I actually own one of each- a stainless T3 light in .270, a RAR stainless carbine in .308, and a Vanguard S2 youth carbine in .243.

The Tikka shoots 3 shots under 1" with almost any load. Spare magazines are expensive, and the stock is hollow and noisy in the woods. Great trigger, can adjust pull weight without removing the action from the stock. Inline magazine feeds slick as can be. Comes with rings, but the ring screws are not the best. Lightweight, but has I notice recoil even in .270.

The RAR .308 shot OK as received, but got even better after floating the barrel generously. It has done a 3-shot group around 1/2" at 100 yards. Nice trigger as issued. I'm not crazy about the rotary magazine. As light as it is, full power .308 loads are comfortable to shoot.

The Wby youth carbine has an incredible trigger. I loaded up some 85 gr Sierra hollow points to use this as a lightweight varminter. I did a 3-shot 1/4" group at 100 yards. Full size Vanguards can be on the heavy side.

So, it depends on what you'd like in a hunting rifle.

My 7mm08 Vg S2 weighs 8 lbs 10 Oz with a VX2 3-9X40 and Talley bases. My other rifles weigh 9 plus so I don't think it's that heavy.

T3 goes 7#, Talley's 3.5 Leupie
SA Faux Ti 6#12oz, Talley's 6x42
LA 24" 700, Mag, McMillan, Talley's, 6x42 8#

For reference.

My Tikka T3 Superlight 270 Winchester is 6 pounds 11 and a half ounces,unloaded ,Factory Rings ,Leupold VX1 3-9x40.

Loaded with 3 rounds 6 pounds 13 and a half ounces

Loaded with 5 round Magazine,7 pounds one half ounce.

.75 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards with Federal Fusion 130 grain

Mouser thumb-cut. Add one to your Finnish Tikkler.

Lanche has a Kimber with a milled slot in the left side of the receiver, but for different reasons.

Still waiting for you to "spew" the frijoles on this magical shroud. First its cosmetic, then its a safety baffle?

Amazing!

Or, just come back with more insults, assumptions, irrelevant questions, and worthless comments? We're a wealth of information and a class act OEH.

Did you get all skooled up after the 4th or 5th one you bought? Maybe post up some pics of what happened when you blew the bolt shroud off.

The magical shroud saved me every time but I'd be happy to test yours

Ditched (2) Tikklers to buy a Kimber and ain't looking back, but recommended the T3 to a couple buds. One of which was the 7RM posted above.

16B, since you're the only Tikkler aficionado still hanging around, do me a favor and pop the cork off your T3, close the bolt in the action, and post a pic looking down the left lug raceway. Maybe I can learn something

Below are pics of the RAR and its fat bolt. Wish it had the magical shroud?! Heard that Boxer "tested" the gas handling on his RAR without incident but I think it might have just been a pierced primer. Gas handling is SO overrated anyway and stray gas events NEVER happen to anyone

Maybe you could just check your other 3 or your "coupla buds" and find out about their gas stories. Kimber stories might be cute too. Or maybe the one about kouches and [bleep].

I might have you confused with someone else though....

Jason (4th point) may be right:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3467390/3

Interesting.

Jason

Oh boy. Sorry to hurt your feelers about your Tikkler(s)! Its hard to hide, isn't?

How about discussing "rifle design"? No... too much to ask? Gotta resort to worthless comments, avoidance, and re-direction. Classic, I love it!

I get it. You get annoyed if someone picks on the Tikkler design, but you're not willing to have a two-way discussion. You just want to dance around and make the other side provide the info.

Go back and read what I wrote. If you have a problem with my comments about Tikkler gas-handling, then come back with some information. I already stated that I'm willing to learn, but prove your point with something other than re-direction. Is it that freaking hard, really? And I mentioned that there are many good qualities about Tikkas. And... wait for it... gas handling might not be a deal breaker!

Prove me wrong 16B and I'll admit it. But if you want to go 'round and 'round with your silly game, I'll let you run yourself tired. The bail is open 16B. Run 16B, run!

This is great!!!

Jason

PS - all (5) Tikklers are gone. Since you're too shy to post pics of what lies beneath the magical shroud I'll see about borrowing a T3. But then what? Will you tuck tail and run away? PLEASE prove me WRONG!

This is too freaking funny!!!

Too much Tikkuila, sunshine?! We'll talk tomorrow after you rest.

I'm on pins and needles awaiting your knowledge of the Tikkler magical shroud.

This is going to be great!

What was your point again?

Here's an oldie, but a goodie. Not sure exactly what you want me to "prove", other than I have a Tikka. Never had 5. Still waiting to hear what you learned at Tikka #5 that didn't matter with Tikka #1 thru #4.



There is a channel on the left. Ok, now I suppose you're going to tell me the Ruger T-3 is better than the Tikka T-3. Got it. Probably easier to use the "search" function as anything you could possibly say about either has already been said. And most likely more than a few times.

Now get back to cutting and pasting.

Be sure to site your source.

You didn't like my comment regarding Tikkler stray gas handling in the left raceway. Your pic shows there is nothing there to stop the gas, other than the magical shroud.

So what issue do you still have with my comment, as you proved my point?

Of course, there is this. Watch the Tikka at 23 seconds. There is no gas escaping backwards. Period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AqMl1A4aQ

Not sure where I said anything about your comments on gas handling nor which point I proved, other than there is a channel on the left side of the bolt.

You're barking at a mailbox.

Hmm the shroud did not fly off the back of the bolt like our "Expert GAS Handler" said it would. Anxiously awaiting his/her explanation of why it did not, perhapshe/she does not realize it but escaping gas whether it comes thru a .050 hole or a 3/8" hole is still bad for the shooter. He/She might also realize that the design of the bolt is of paramount importance ie how much the rear of the cartridge case is exposed.

Appears to be a place on either side of the cocking piece of the RAR where gas could fly out of .

Good deal David. Can't watch it at work but will check it out later.

That was a great video David. However, that was an obstructed barrel test, not a case-rupture test. The brass would still act as a gasket and seal the chamber. And remember that chamber pressures dropped by the time the bullet hit the obstruction compared to a partially lodged bullet followed by a case rupture.

A bullet was driven 10cm from the muzzle to act as an obstruction, the rifle clamped, then fired. It showed the strength of the barrel from bursting. Its also unclear if the bullet dislodged the obstruction as the rifles that did not burst recoiled backwards. Notice that the ones that busted didn't move in the vise.

Still an interesting test, but not representative of a ruptured case and gas handling.

See explanation above. You should really "think" before you "write"!

Too funny!

To Mrs. Oldelkhunter and 16Bore,

Since you wanted me to do the searching, snipping and pasting for you, I found a few posts regarding the magical shroud. I admit that this first one is lame, but better than the busted barrel test!

Link

To Mrs. Oldelkhunter and 16Bore,

This one is better than the last one. "Snip and post", at your request

Link

To Mrs. Oldelkhunter and 16Bore,

These get better yet. The posts below come from The Kid, a gunsmith and sponsor at the Alaska forums. Snip and Post, at your request.

Link1

Link2

Yet you had 5 and recommend them to your "buddies". Don't drool on the red one, you ain't gonna find any.

Don't trust the factory magical shroud, 16B?

You should not post on a subject you have zero knowledge of. The Kid is that another name you post under?

LOL ....and I hit the power ball 5x

Getting this back on track

Tikka T3... light, accurate and trouble free ..best trigger of the trio and barrel

Weatherby Vanguard..heavy,consistently accurate ..needs trigger IMHO factory 2 stage is not my cup of tea













Ruger American...Machine made and that is not very impressive,too much effort to cam the bolt,lousy trigger,great magazine design and otherwise a great value. Ruger ended up with the best gun at that price point over the Savage and Mossberg entry level stuff.

Oh, you're not getting off the hook that easily by changing the subject. Good try!

Still waiting for you to tell us which is the "cosmetic" shroud and which is the baffle.

When in doubt, change the subject!

$380 rifle
$100 Boyd's stock
$300 SWFA 10xMD
$50 Mounts
$40(?) Mag ass gaskets

$870 puts the package $170 over the cost of a Tikka SL.

Now, do I agree that its a steal and a half, especially for a 1:8 223? You bet your ass. Ruger had to somewhat reverse engineer a Tikka because I think it shares a lot of the same design features. They have second mover advantage up one side and down the other. Eventually someone will get one to shoot as well as a Tikka, there's no denying that Tikkas shoot.

Business decision-wise, I give it to Ruger and its a proven good call. Schit, if I were still in college I'd do a thesis on it.

As a dedicated hunting rig, I'll take what's listed in Reply #1 over anything else mentioned in this thread, including the Kimber.


But I do like my T3.

When have I ever said the shroud was anything but a cosmetic feature. Your baffle comment has me baffled, have you shown me visual evidence of a ruptured cartridge case in a Tikka ? No you have not , but you have mentioned plastic,triggers ad nauseam.

Show me a pic of a bolt shroud on a T3 blown off by a ruptured cartridge case.

$380 rifle
$100 Boyd's stock
$300 SWFA 10xMD
$50 Mounts
$40(?) Mag ass gaskets

$870 puts the package $170 over the cost of a Tikka SL.

Now, do I agree that its a steal and a half, especially for a 1:8 223? You bet your ass. Ruger had to somewhat reverse engineer a Tikka because I think it shares a lot of the same design features. They have second mover advantage up one side and down the other. Eventually someone will get one to shoot as well as a Tikka, there's no denying that Tikkas shoot.

Business decision-wise, I give it to Ruger and its a proven good call. Schit, if I were still in college I'd do a thesis on it.

As a dedicated hunting rig, I'll take what's listed in Reply #1 over anything else mentioned in this thread, including the Kimber.


But I do like my T3.



I would have to replace the factory trigger with a Timney

If I did get the American, I'd likely leave it stock. It looks like most of them shoot pretty well right out of the box, so I can't see adding weight and money to it. The SWFA would be nice, I'd opt for the 6x myself, but neither is an option since they won't export to Canada.
If I was looking for a rifle that was going to see a lot of heavy duty use, the custom route would be a nice option. Right now though I'm just looking for a decent, all-round beater rifle, something that'll do whatever I need to with a minimum of fuss.
If this Vanguard shoots well now, then I'll scope it and try to be happy...if I can't be happy with it, I'll look for a Howa locally. The local gun shop just moved location and is reopening today, so I have to stop in and see what they have. Never know
what might happen...

The only change I would make on a Howa/Vanguard it would be the trigger. My brother snagged an absolutely beautiful 300 wby mag blued with the deluxe stock from gunbroker for 5bills delivered. It has a great trigger and stock. I have never seen a rifle line that was so trouble free aside from the trigger.

Bottom Line after all the banter back and forth is this,
IN the event of a ruptured case in the Tikka T3 how will the Tikka handle the Gas?
Is it safe?
This is of major concern to me as I recently bought a Tikka Superlight 270 Winchester and have liked everything about the rifle . Till now. Now I am concerned about the safeness of the rifle.

Let's be clear about the Vanguard trigger. The issue was limited to the original Vanguard, which had a truly terrible trigger. Lots of people, including me, complained about them for years. The standard cure was to drop in a Timney and make a small cut or dremel out a small channel inside the stock to allow for the greater forward travel of safety lever arm, or whatever you choose to call it. The Timney is an excellent trigger that updrades to a three-position safety on the original Vanguards.

The S2 Vanguards have -- wonder of wonders -- a very Timney-like, three-position safety.

Yes it is a vast improvement over the first go around...I just do not like 2 stage triggers

Hmmm, looks like someone did the carve-out-the-underside-of-Tally-rings treatment there, which appears to nicely get around the chitty screw issue with factory rings. Please share some info on your modifications. Inquiring minds want to know.

16bore handles that and it is very nice. That said I would use optilocks only on a Tikka and have.

Yeah, I'd like to know more about his modifications.

Re. optilocks, I'm not crazy about any ring maker who can't be bothered to supply their product with decent screws. Penny wise, inch-pound foolish.

Ask him

Decent screws really? You have to use a carbon steel allen wrench or torx wrench(current production) and I can guarantee you will not have an issue. I don't like ringmarks on my scope and I like them to stay in place.

Just a little nip and tuck. There's a post around here with the story on the mods, but "MY STUFF" isn't working on the iPhone.

Next project is drilling vent holes in the bolt. Was going to monkey with 2.5" 223 mags but what a pain in the ass.

I've had a 7mm08 and 7mmRem Mag T3's for almost 10 years now, and have fired hundreds upon hundreds of rounds through them, including what my nephew and son have shot. They both wear the original T3 rings and plastic shroud. We've killed countless animals with them as well, never one single solitary problem of any kind, any form or fashion out of either of them. They're ridiculously accurate.

The schittty shroud and schittty ring problems are way overblown IMO, unless a guy likes to torque rings with a cheater pipe.

Read your quote above... you wrote, "There is no problem with gas traveling up the leftside bolt rail since there is a precise fit between shroud and the receiver."

First you write that the shroud is cosmetic, then say it stops gas moving rearward! Which is it?

i am not going over this again ever. The Bolt shroud is cosmetic, name how many times you have seen one blown off because of gas traveling up the left lug raceway ? If this is such an issue where are all the pic's? Oh I know....................there are none.


P.S. I don't believe your little story about the 5 tikkas or the trigger issue you had with one. Not even a little.


Now time to putt your azz on ignore

Or reads stuff on the innerweb and imaginary pretends to own said equipment like one of my ignored posters.

I've fired, conservatively, 50,000 rounds of center fire rifle in my life and have had zero ruptured cases. Why are we even discussing this?

I did ask him, thank you very much. That's why I responded to his post. And FYI, I always torque to spec. You don't have to react like someone is beating your dog because they noted a commonly reported issue. I didn't criticize the rifle. I actually own one. I criticized the rings.

You don't like two-stage triggers. I don't like optilocks.

Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing.

I have a little first hand experience with this. I'm not proud of it,but I broke the number 1 rule of safe shooting practices.

Boiled down,I had 2 types of ammo on the bench at the same time. 280 Remington and 7 Rem Mag. I was shooting my T3 7 mag. I had left a box of 280 Remington open on the bench alongside the box of 7 mag. I had been shooting the 280 just mins before. Well,I reach over and pick a 280 out of it's box and chamber it in the 7 Remmy,and pulled the loud lever. I want to tell you I was very lucky to be wearing glasses. I put a 1" long longitudinal split in the 280 case. I got fragments above and below my right eye. HURT like [bleep] too. I can also tell you gas will follow the feed ramp,just like a GLOCKand blow the mag. Not the whole mag.Just the bottom out of it in 2 pieces. $70 mag ruined. The chamber is fine. My dignity is bruised,along with my ego and face. I took the bolt apart when I got home and all was well within. Just a little sooty.

So,there you have it. Fresh from the trenches first hand experience. DON"T KEEP MORE THAN 1 TYPE OF AMMO ON THE BENCH! Especially when they look exactly alike sitting there bullets up and both loaded with 150gr Ballistic tips.

The secret to using those lousy sako screws is to use a chrome moly wrench not the stainless allen wrench that Sako provides. It will gall your screw heads like no tomorrow. That issue is reported by people that have no business working on a gun. If there is anyone overreactiong just look in the mirror.

Good thing you were wearing glasses . What happened to the shroud if you don't mind me asking?

Not overeacting at all. You're saying the manufacturer is supplying the gun with a tool that will screw up the screws while at the same time dismissing anyone out there who has a problem because of that as someone who "has no business working on a gun."

That's not exactly a ringing endorsement -- of either the product or your logic.

Nuttin. It was just fine and wasn't even sooty.

What are we talking about Tikka or Sako? I use Talley or DNZ and lately Optilocks on Tikkas. Out of them all the Optilocks are my favorite. There are people here that like the stock rings and I don't have a problem with that. I would just rather not have my scope tube slip or get marred.

I do not use the Sako allen wrench supplied with the rings , the torx wrench is fine. I bought a used pair of optilock rings a long time ago, the previous owner destroyed 80% of the screws and it cost me 4 bucks per screw to replace, Not only was he dishonest he did not know how to use an allen wrench properly. Someone on the fire told me to use a chrome moly allen wrench at the time and I have had zero problems since. No ring marks and no slippage what is not to like?

You were Lucky.

I have only had a primer leak on a Rem700 that burned about a .030 hole in the bolt face on the rifle, I felt a puff on my cheek . I had to have the bolt replaced. A fellow at the gun club shot a 308 accidentally out of his 270 and cracked the stock on his 700 forward of the magazine well.

I've had a couple. A face full of extremely hot gas and small brass particles will make it important to you.

Mrs. Oldelkhunter,

You can't remember very well can you? I never mentioned a "trigger issue". 4 of the 5 triggers were great, one had some creep. Now I did have a problem with the safety. But not the trigger. First you couldn't remember what you wrote about the shroud, and now you're making stuff up about the trigger. You haven't been able to put together a rational defense during this entire debate and I'm sorry to put you through this.

Mrs. Oldelkhunter, I will believe whatever you say from now on. Please accept my apologies. Get some rest and be well. Is there anyone at home that can help you if you have problems? Someone to tuck you into bed and wipe your bottom?

Get well,

Jason

All,

If that nutty old bat really has me on ignore she'll never see this post or my last...

If anyone knows Mrs. Oldelkhunter or her family, then get a hold of someone in her family that hasn't gone senile. At first I thought she was just argumentative, but looking back at her responses makes me wonder if she actually understood the questions I've asked. Got to give the old bird credit though, she's a fighter!

Anyone that can check-in on her? Not a joke, I'm being serious.

I agree. Lucky it was the same caliber,and actually chambered up decent. The thing ALMOST fire formed a new 7 Mag. Just not enough material to get the job done.

I think the synthetic stock on the Vanguard S2 is head and shoulders above the other two. The trigger is also excellent. The Tikka and Vanguard come with the same accuracy guarantee. The four Vanguards in our family shoot sub-moa and it is well established that Tikka's are super accurate out of the box. I would not put the RAR in the same class as the Tikka and Vanguard, not even close. I prefer the Vanguard over the Tikka because for me they are just as accurate, have a much better stock that won't bend if you are using a sling for support, cost less and I'm recoil sensitive so Tikka's are too light.

I also cannot stand factory Tikka rings. Whenever a customer buys a Tikka and I mount the scope I suggest they purchase Warne Tikka rings, or if they are a Leupold freak I suggest the Leupold Tikka base and standard rings. Much as I hate the factory rings I've never had a customer that used them come back and tell me they failed so they must work.

Your name calling and rhetoric is getting old. Why not just STFU and let it go.

He's still thumbing through the Stickionary for more to say. Should be a "bless your heart" coming along anytime now.

Otter6,

That was one heck of a "test". Luckily you were shooting a 7mm in a 7mm, as a bore obstruction would have been even worse. Thanks for sharing and happy to hear you made it out with your vision.

Interesting link:

Getting it Wrong

Jason

Don't be such a cry baby. Who started the name calling, accusations, and assumptions? Mrs. Oldelkhunter! We're just having some fun.

Oldelkhunter asked for info on Tikka shrouds getting blown off, and I provided the links. But rather than discuss them, or rifle "design" the subject got changed or dismissed. She even stated that I was the gunsmith sponsor at the Alaska forums bad mouthing Tikkas. WTF?!

Defend your hero as you wish. But when someone does hit-n-run with name calling, avoidance, and accusations I'm not going to "STFU" because you don't like it.

Jason

Ahhh, no. That's been your forte for quite awhile. But I love how you roll Stick into the equation.

So why the metal shroud 16Bore? If the OEM co-polymer is sufficient, why upgrade? Just paint the plastic 'red'.

Should I collect photos of the (5) Tikklers and describe why I bought each one? I know you'll divert to this instead of answering the above, or discussing the "design" of a rifle.

Thanks!

Why the Boyd's on the RAR? Keep digging.

So now you attack me for suggesting you do what you should have already had the sense to do, if you were even half as smart as you seem to think you are. Guess you are wrong. Really not very smart. Give it your best and don't let me get under your skin while you do. At least you can spread the name calling around and give someone else a break while you gain more respect and integrity... Congratulations?

Big Stick, AKA Boxer is a real PITA with his constant, foul, diatribe (you can google that word), however, to his credit, he has forgotten more things rifle than you will ever dream of knowing.

To fix the flop. Some are worse than others. Have a look, as this has already been posted...

Link to Floppy

But also to add some mass to the system. This was the first Prairie Hunter for me, and truth be told, I was hoping for a chunkier stock. But for $113 I can't complain too much.



But what does the Boyd's have to do with the red metal shroud on your Tikkler?!

So, why the metal shroud?

J

And what is a "Mag ass gasket"? The extended mag by Cotis and Shortactionsmoker? If so, its a dang nice option for the 223 RAR.

The more you write, the better it gets. You've dug a hole so deep that you need to type louder so we can hear you! Be careful as you're one of the very few that can hang them-self from the thinnest of spider threads in that deep hole

Why not paint the plastic shroud red?

I don't recall addressing you, or calling you out directly in this thread or any other. I do recall you starting the conversation with me,in this thread, using "STFU".

Perhaps give me a sermon on casting stones and such?

Actually, I'd appreciate a sermon on "catching stones thrown" from such a righteous man such as yourself.

Thanks.

PS - "STFU" isn't the best way to start a dialogue, but I could be wrong!

And good dialogue does not include name calling, thus the obvious I pointed out. The advice was, and remains, sound. Care to voluntarily provide more proof of your character, or are you finished?

Please address my concern of using "STFU" in your initial dialogue with me as this hurt my feelers. Then, I will comment on your comments.

Or, do the "ends Justify the means" in the Righteous-World?

Please give me some time as I'm formulating my response to your next question, as I know you will not address the original question about "STFU".

Actually I did. Syndromic intellectual disability? Possibly I should apologize. Take all the time you need.

Because it's red, stupid.




Because plastic is inferior and it's red, stupid. Same reason you bought the Boyd's. Same reason I put a McSwirly on my 7mag. Same reason I have a Ti take-off on my 260. Nothing new with replacing inferior parts with better. It happens.

What's funny is watching a little poodle bark his ass off at a mailbox and think he's a pitbull. You ain't. You're a jumpy little punk that thinks he's going to "skool" somebody because he copies verbatim what's already been said over and over again. Your (5) Tikka story (notice the parenthesis a la a Stick post, which I'm sure is where you came up with it) is pretty funny. Reckon you sold them once you lost out in the "cool" club 'cause Tikka's ain't cool. But wait, you did buy a Kimber. Good boy, that's a gooood boy. I don't think much about them. Whoops? Did I really say that? OH SCHIT. Damn, now I guess I have to explain why didn't like it. I'll let you just wallow in "16B doesn't know nothing about rifles". Shucks, I got punked by a poodle.

Keep yapping at the mailbox and thinking you might just grab a pant leg and hump a little. Or better yet "keep going on with the vagina monologue and don't let the couch get your kkunt"

(I figure you would probably understand Stickenese a little better)

Hope so. Seems to be lost on clear English.

Thank you and thanks for the link. That's a big read. I'll hit it in the morning with a cup of Java.

Thanks for answering the question. Now, it wasn't that hard was it?

I agree, the metal seems better than the plastic.

16Bore-d,

Poodle here. We can keep discussing "me" instead of rifle "design" if you want. Or, you can keep mentioning Stick... as you insist on rolling him into the equation. Perhaps he will come to your rescue? Seems that you bite the hand that feeds you though, no?

I can see that you don't like getting shhit flicked at you. Its starting to get uncomfortable watching you unravel. You really need to have more self-confidence. I never wrote that, "16B doesn't know nothing about rifles". Never even thought that. You have a good deal of rifle/reloading knowledge. Just giving you a hard time for flickin' shhit at me for bitchin' about Tikklers!

Now toughen up a little bit. And get your mind out of the couch.

J

Plastic trigger guard on the RAR shhit-the-bed on the Boyd's...

Took the plywood off and put the OEM milk-jug stock back on. The white epoxy near the lug captures the receiver but the barrel is allowed to float.

Some observations regarding gas entering the firing pin hole on the RAR. There are (3) holes (qty=3, or 3, or three) between the lugs on the bolt head. Two are directed towards the vent holes on either side of the receiver, the third vents to the thru-hole for the front action screw (i.e. blind hole and blocked), but there is a larger hole in the bolt body that vents to the magazine.

The pick points to the "functional" vent holes.







It seems that gas entering the bolt body would be vented well. The tail end of the bolt appears to be sealed. I had (2) pierced primers (qty=2, or 2, or two) and never felt anything, but have never experienced anything worse.

Next, observations regarding the RAR and escaping gas "around" the bolt...

The fat bolt on the RAR "seems" to act as a baffle. OEH had a good point about the gaps between the bolt body and rear of the receiver (first pic below). These gaps could still allow hot gas to sneak past to the shooter. But it still seems much more substantial than the T3 in regards to blocking the flow of gas in this area. RAR has the fat bolt, the T3 has a gap covered by the plastic shroud. No scientific proof, just an observation.

With the bolt inserted and closed, there is a vent pathway from the locking area to the magazine as indicated by the pick in the pic...

I don't know if it was intentional on the part of Ruger (or if all RAR models are like this), but the fit between the fat bolt body and receiver near the vent directed towards the magazine is very TIGHT. I put sharpie on the bolt, cycled the bolt a few times, and the shiny areas can been seen in the pics below.

It appears that the bolt-to-receiver fit provides a seal from rearward gas flow. The path of least resistance appears to be the vent directed towards the magazine, but it seems that anything can happen when things go wrong...

One place that gas from the locking area can go is to travel down the groove for the bolt stop. However, this groove is open to atmosphere at the ejection port on the right-hand side of the receiver.

The fat bolt body also has close contact to the receiver, aft of the groove as well. I put sharpie marks and cycled the bolt several times to show the shiny metal.