Would this load work on a hopped up, aggressive grizzly? Before he eats you? Assuming good shot placement, of course. Out of a revolver with a 4 inch barrel.

A friend of mine is saying a grizzly would laugh at this load. Says protection starts with a 44 Mag.

I am not an expert, just asking for opinions on the matter.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Unless the shot is in the exact right spot.

Yes it will work.


https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/d...97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/

My brother said exactly the same thing until we both shot into a 16" block of hard fir! My 357 out penetrated his 44 mag 300 grain hardcast lead bear loads by a minimum of 6" everytime and sometimes by as much as 10". Bear protection is a function of penetration and hitting CNS period!!! The 357 mag with Buffalo bore 180s does this function better than any 44 mag or 10mm for that matter. Please keep in mind however that you will get a lot of neighsayers who have never done it.....tested it......or know what there talking about. Buy yourself a box of 180 Buffalo bores and make your friend put his ass where his mouth is when you kick his ass good and hard shooting into a block of wood. Just be ready with a tissue to wipe his tears for him when your done

Does it come with a guarantee?

:-)

I'm not for or against. Probably a good load for that cartridge. Likely good'nuf the same way a seat belt is at 80mph.. Same as any other gun/cartridge combination.

You might Google "Phil Shoemaker 9mm charging Alaskan brown bear"....

A good load in a 357 sure beats trying to stick your thumbs in the the bear’s eyes.

I don't want to be snarky, but how many grizzlies has he run afoul of?

Nothing is guaranteed but a good shot would probably do the trick. Of course, that's probably true of anything in the wild. Whenever there's talk about bears, I'm reminded of this article.

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/be...-the-1953-world-record-grizzly-and-more/

So your 180s could work but...


Is it the best choice for a fast moving, angry grizzly? I'm pretty sure no matter what you have on hand, it will feel inadequate when you're actually facing an angry charge.

Shot placement with a good bullet design and plenty of them just in case my first couple of panicked shots don't have the desired effect. Remember, I won't have all day to make good hits.

So yeah, it could work. The rest is on You.

How many inches of penetration does it take to get to the CNS? How many inches of penetration does it take to the heart? Assuming frontal shots since this is a bear coming at us.

Hey @Earlyagain, haven't seen you around in a while. Probably because I haven't been around lately but I'm still here.

I would think a .357 Magnum with 180 grain cast bullets should provide some protection, especially if you can hit the central nervous system. It probably gets down to how good your hits are.

But I'll stipulate that I've never shot a grizzly or brown bear, although I've seem them when hiking and fishing. But I believe I read that Phil Shoemaker's daughter used to carry a .357 in brown bear country.

LeontP,

This is the only one of your previous very few posts that might have anything to do with this subject:

"No fearsome wild life around here except an occasional black bear or very rare mountain lion.

Mostly, it's white trash feral humans and their equally feral dogs that are used to guard the wild oregano that's popular out West. So to that end, it's a G23 loaded with 165 grain Gold Dots.

50 years ago, you only had to worry about the occasional black bear or rare mountain lion."

Have you actually ever seen a grizzly bear, outside of a zoo?

It would be very good if we uninitiated could just put Phil in a holster with whatever he had at the time. I’ve heard it’s not so much the arrow as it is the Indian.

Zero.

OK then.

I know what I choose to carry in bear country and why. I practice, practice and practice more. I’m rebuilding my “live action” target but training trumps super magnum-close-your-eyes-and jerk big bore handguns and bullet placement trumps all. I do my best to avoid them but I’ve been around them and watched them enough to have a fair grasp on their behavior and I know that no matter what I’m carrying it isn’t big enough when a real charge happens. 😉

I’ll take a .357 in well trained hands shooting 180HC but I want more than 5 or 6 shots irregardless of caliber if given the choice. When camping in brown bear country the 44 comes along. The 44 can be wielded easily in the confines of a collapsed tent and I don’t have to rely on the slide not snagging on nylon or sleeping bag in the dark confusion. When I’m doing anything else in bear country I carry a G20 with 200gr HC at 1300. I can easily control it and I have 15 total possible tries before I either get a fresh reload or I get to meet St. Peter. Luckily the good Lord has given the bears and I a tentative compromise whereby as long as I stay out of the grasp of their teeth and claws I’ll be perfectly fine. 😀

It doesn't take much. I have personally been involved with two grizzly shootings with a cousin and one black bear shooting with a younger brother. All three bears were attacking and all three bears were killed with one shot to the CNS/Brain. The grizzlies ended up being a huge ordeal since the fish and game decided to try to push it. Since both bears were close enough to find powder residue on the point of impact the case was eventually thrown out of court but not until spending $10,000 in attorney fees.

I do not recommend a heart shot on a bear in a personal protection situation

I'd be curious about Underwood's monolithic philips head loads in both 120 and 140 gr.

some folks got alota bad bar experiences... glad i don't!... u skin thisn' pilgrim, an i'l fetch ye another...

When you "fetch ye another", what will you be a-usin?

whatever i happin' ta be a-carryun at the time pilgrim... just hope they don't find my scat residue on the bars face... only lesson i can give is, When in bar country, Load for Bar!...

I have never had a bad bear experience. A few bears have had a bad experience with me

There you have it, straight from the bear expert's mouth.

If I ever meet Phil Shoemaker, I'll ask him what I should carry for bears and such. If he's inclined to give me any helpful advice, I'll do whatever he says and consider myself to have been reliably informed.

Phil used the 147 hardcast lead load by Buffalo bore

I know Phil well, and have talked with him considerably about all of this. (I suspect he hasn't commented here because he has a new grand-daughter, and has had his fill of Campfire BS over the years.) But this is what he's said to me:

First, no repeating handgun round, whether for a revolver or auto, comes close to being a "stopping" round, despite what many apparently believe. By "stopping," Phil means a round which stops the bear long enough to put another shot into it before it continues charging. (This is also the the opinion of several African PHs I know.) Based on his experience, the minimum rifle round to start to do this is around the .375 H&H, but .416s and of course his .458 work even better.

But a 9mm or .357 with deep-penetrating bullets will indeed kill a big grizzly or brown--if at least one bullet gets into a vital area. And you can put more of 'em into a charging bear than with a far harder-kicking round. (Phil has also stated that he might have preferred his S&W .44 Magnum Mountain Gun, but even that has less recoil than a .454 or .500.)

He has also used as back-up rifle rounds up to the .505 Gibbs, which has so much recoil he couldn't recover from it quickly enough to put another round into the "stopped" bear before it started to come again.

Which is the problem with assuming the really big handgun cartridges will "stop" grizzlies. They are far less powerful than any rifle cartridge considered adequate for "big bears," even the
.30-06 with heavier bullets.

Sounds like you’ve got a good friend. You should listen to him.

I've watched a few bears, both black and grizzlies. Well adapted to their environment, and cagey, in their ways.

But they are not Einsteins and I would assume that their brain inhabits a smallish area in their skull. And that, particularly in a grizzly, the skull is well covered with fur, hide, and flesh.

Having hunted, hiked, camped, and slept where grizzlies roam, I've given thought as to just what to aim for from different angles on a bear, but I plead ignorance.
I've read that a grizzly skull is not all that heavy, or thick. But from a frontal angle it surely is sloped in a manner that might deflect a shot.
I would guess that the brain is located above and behind the eyes. Right where their heads begin to get thick and meaty...

Experienced advice appreciated...

In my experience things happen so fast when you have an actual problem with a brown bear that the best you can do is shoot the middle of the brown blur with something big enough to matter. The idea of aiming at a specific spot is often mere fantasy. There are some exceptions to this, such as when a bear is perhaps not being as serious about things as the person feeling threatened is and the bear gets shot for it. Another possibility is with the way involuntary human response to stress works, whereby you end up experiencing an event in slow-motion time. In that circumstance it can seem as though you've got plenty of time to sort things out, but that's beyond your control and is nothing to count on.

Due to the angles presented with the event and ranges at which they occur, defensive shootings of bears necessitate penetration through skulls, necks, shoulders, or all three before the bullet can drive through the chest. The best case is a mix of bullet expansion and penetration, but if I was forced to choose between the two I would pick penetration every time.

One thing that changed my thinking when it came to handguns and bears is actual experience. I've killed quite a bit of game with things ranging from 9mm to stoutly loaded .45 Colts, including various loads in the .357 and .44 special. I've also seen a number of deer killed by the .454 of a friend. As a result of this experience I decided that handguns kill stuff in a way more akin to a broadhead than a rifle. I also learned that out to about 75 yards there's not much difference in actual killing performance between something like a .44 special shooting 255gr WFN at 1050 and a .45 Colt shooting a 300gr LFN at 1250. Both penetrate sufficiently, and holes do the killing. The .454 with lighter bullets at greater velocity hit deer harder, but with the trade off of a heavier, higher recoiling gun shooting loads with less penetration than things going slower. As Mule Deer alluded to previously, no handgun round is going to solve problems as decisively as a rifle.

I've always generally been a revolver guy when it comes to my choices in outdoor handguns. A couple years ago my wife asked about getting a handgun for bear defense so her hands could be freed up while walking the dogs and dealing with kids during walks around town. She's never much cared for revolvers, so it was pretty obvious a 10mm would be a good choice for her. I'm not a bandwagon sort of person, the more popular something becomes the more likely I am to avoid it. So the more popular 10mms became, the more stubborn I became about liking my S&W 69 for my brown bear country handgun needs. But I yielded to what would work best for my wife and bought a couple 10mms for her to try out. In the process I did load development and shot them quite a bit myself.

The shot timer was a revelation. I discovered that at the distances where I'd most frequently sorted out charging bears with a rifle (2-12 yards), that I could get three hits with the 10mm shooting 200 grainers at 1150 in the same time that I could get one hit with the .44 shooting 300 grainers at 1150. I realized the following:

1.) I know for a fact the 10mm load will penetrate just as sufficiently as the .44 load will.
2.) Given the limitations of a handgun compared to a rifle, multiple hits quickly are a great idea.
3.) The 10mm lets me get more behavior changing goodness into a bear faster than the .44 does.

For bear defense, a handgun is a weapon of compromise and convenience, a get-offa-me gun, and a rifle's sidekick. A smart person would never choose to fight a bear with just a handgun but nevertheless carrying a handgun in bear country is a great idea for people who invest the time to be proficient with one. All of which is to say that if a person liked their .357, it might not be my choice but I reckon a good 180gr .357 load would have sufficient penetration to make it into a bear's vitals on a frontal angle.

If you put the bullet in the brain or have time to get multiple shots off it surely will work. If not make sure and file the front sight down so it hurts less when the bear inserts it.

Opinions on this?

Maybe I will file the front sight half-way. Sometimes compromise is the best approach.

Thanks for your sage advice!

Many years ago when I still lived in Nevada I used to go to The Aline reloading Room, an LGS with a couple of very knowledgable owners. My buddy and I were in twon so stopped by to pick up reloading supplies. I was getting stuff to feed my .44 mag Ruger Super Blackhawk.. Things were slow at the store so we were talking with thw owners One asked my why the .44 mag. and I said I was in the running for a job in Alaska and I bought it for bear protection. He told me that if I had to use it to fight a bear, shoot him five times. Save number six for yourself. You could take a long time dying with you guts spread out over the tundra while the beat eats you choice parts. Sad to say I didn't get the job so we'll never know if he was right.
PJ

What vel does BB advertise their 180/357 out of a 4" barrel??
Whatever you carry for griz, anything over 1250 fps is diminishing returns. If your load is running 1450fps, then use a heavier bullet until you are at 1200-1250fps. According the John Linebaugh's testing, 1200-1250 provides the best penetration w/o other trade offs. So if you are running faster, use a heavier bullet until you are in the 1250 zone. This is for handguns, I think 2000fps is the goal for rifles in Africa.

Example (no cal or specific bullet weights given because it applies across the board)

80% weight at 1500 fps = 75% penetration
100% weight at 1250fps = 100% penetration
125% weight at 1000fps = 85% penetration
100% weight at 1500 fps = 102% penetration

You do gain a small amount of penetration with higher vels, but you have to increase the vel exponentially to get more pen.

I have chronoed my 357 180 Buffalo bore hardcast out of a 6" barrel. Velocity was 1465 fps.

Phil Shoemaker performed extensive penetration tests with the Buffalo Bore 9mm 147-grain load before he used it in the field--and if I recall correctly the fatal shot on the 9-foot brown bear was through the shoulders. The bullet was found under the hide on the far side. (Will recheck that from my info on the incident, but am very sure.)

A 180-grain .357 would obviously penetrate at least as well.

Every shot that Phil fired made it under the skin on the far side. Phil knows bears that is for sure and certain

Which is why its always amazing to me how many people who have never even seen a grizzly, much less a big brown bear, know so much about "adequate" handgun cartridges....

Maybe think about a 200 gr.

Maybe middle ground is the answer.


Big bullets, like the same caliber that the revolver fires, only in a semi auto and driven by a high performance load.

While the 10mm is super popular, lots of people overlook (a big mistake in my view) the heavy .45 ACP loads. When loaded properly, they are extremely impressive and very deep penetrators.


I may know "a guy" who loads them. But I also know that Buffalo Bore, who this thread originally talked about, also loads a 250 grain +P 45 load. Either way you are getting very impressive performance that should not be overlooked, if you are up in the air between 10mm and a .44 or .45 caliber revolver.

I tend to carry a Glock 21 or 1911 quite often, loaded with heavy loads when in Grizzly country, and have zero concerns about the load's ability to penetrate.





As much as I love my revolvers, and I am a died in the wool large bore fan. I have been shooting .44s and .45s since a teen. That said, these days I tend to carry a lighter weight, higher capacity, easier to shoot, semi auto, when it comes to protection against large animals.

Was always amazed at how much critter a 200 gr .45 SWC penetrated, although i never put one into bear...

Moose and large bull elk are harder to penetrate than a bear in my experience which were 2 artic grizzly

Never did that either. I did have a 200 SWC from my 1911 go through a deer shoulder and lodge in the big rolled roast portion of it's hind quarter.

That's a good idea about the 45 ACP, didn't think about that. I see that Buffalo Bore make a 255 grain hard cast +P load that clocks about 900-950 fps.

I have a Ruger P90 45 ACP with three 8 round magazines. I'm now thinking that might be the way to go instead of my Ruger GP 100 .357 with 180 grain pills. I may have to change my slide spring in the P90, but I can test that out.

Lost River Ammo produce near identical loads at a much more attractive price point.

Thanks, will check out Lost River Ammo.

I don't believe Buffalo bore has a 200 grain offering. I'm not sure the velocity rule your refering to applies to hardcast lead since hardcast lead doesn't expand.

I've been carrying Buffalo Bore's 180 grain cast 357's in my 3" Model 60. It's pretty doggone brutal to shoot. I was impressed with the accuracy.

Buffalo Bore rates it at 1300 fps from a 3" barrel and my chronograph confirmed that. Haven't personally done any penetration testing, but I believe that this ammo will penetrate sufficiently.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=396



I've shot a few bear, one grizz, but all with rifles. Only saw one black bear shot with a 44 handgun - it was at quite close range and my hunting pard dropped that bear instantly with a 300+ grain hardcast.

Regards, Guy

I carry a GP 100 for bear defense and have never had to use it in that capacity. HOWEVER, I recently picked up some of the Lost River .357 hardcast and tested it out on a number of things, from plain old stumps/firewood to carcasses, and it is my new go-to. I used to use 180 gr Buffalo Bore (and still have it around), but Lost River is what I'm using from here on out. Shoots great in the GP 100 and it also seems to perform at least as well (in my tests) as the Buffalo Bore did.

How would these run in an Shield 45? Picked one up awhile back but have only tried fmj and self defense HP so far.

Finally, another grizzly handgun thread. Not being funny here, I enjoy seeing the opinions

Wife just went for a walk in the neighborhood and a 10 year old her there was a Black Bear up the street and a Brown Bear down the street pretty typical this time a year. Here in Eagle River AK, she has a Ruger SP 101 with 180 Gr BB loads or a XDM 10 MM with 220 gr cast loads. Which are usually at home! Shooting my S&W model 29 44 mag that I bought around 1980 and my Springfield XDM 10 mm both with heavy cast loads, the 10 mm was more accurate and easier to shoot fast.

Much more important than the cartridge that is used for bear protection is the ammo that you use. If your useing the wrong ammo I don't care what your shooting your odds drastically go down of being successful. Shot placement is also vitally important IME. It's almost laughable when people recommend aiming for the chest area since it's the biggest area to aim at. As stated in this thread. The 9mm is capable of getting the job done however the feela that was successful with that operation was using Buffalo bore bear ammo and used a head shot to kill the bear. Two extremely important details

IME, full house 180’s in a .357 require a taller front sight to adjust for POI. Easy to do with a Freedom Arms. FA has the taller sight; they know what you need. Swapping FA front sights is easy with an Allen wrench.

Not too sure about light weight .357 guns with full house 180’s. Those heavy loads may not be too easy to handle and POI probably needs adjusting.

DF

After living in Alaska and then reading all about Mr. Shoemaker’s experience with 9mm, If I head into grizz country again, I’ll have my 10 mm loaded with the Double Tap hardcast I have or Buffalo Bore. Might even carry a 9mm if that’s what I have handy. I have 44 mag and 357. Great guns, but when you get that heavy, its hard to get more than one shot on target. Personally, I want as many on target as I can get.

Here in Arkansas with black bears, I’m good with my Glock 19 or CZ 75C with 147 grain Buffalo bore hardcast.

I am not much of a handgun guy.
I carry a 5 shot S&W with a 3” barrel loaded with old Federal 180 hard cast ammo.
Simple and easy to operate under extreme stress. I am focused on hitting a target around 10-12’ away so regard sights as superfluous.
It is compact and acceptably light which means I am more likely to have it when needed.

I see just as many Yetis as most of these folks see grizzlies. Any suggestions as to a handgun that will stop an enraged Sasquatch?

All sarcasm aside, Phil wrote a great article on this subject years ago in Handloader. As he has been there and done that, I would heed his advice. IIRC he was advocating a 4" .357 with heavy, nonexpanding bullets that would penetrate and allowed quicker repeat shots if needed.

I look at the box and my 357 is a model 60 which I really like.

^^^^^^???

Underwood Extreme Penetrator

I've never used and do not intend to use them because of the high cost.
They don't do anything that a hardcast flat point can't accomplish

With correct shot placement they will work perfectly, so will many other calibers including all the heavy recoiling calibers . But if you are worried about maybe, possibly, not placing your fist shot exactly correct then You will need to rely on a quick second or third shot and for that the lighter calibers are defiantly superior.

Perhaps Phil will comment since he’s here; I don’t recall a head shot in his description of the incident - but it’s been a few years.

Phil did not shoot the bear in the head. He hit thebearfin the chest each shot until the last one and the bear was running way at that point

What about handloads? What powder and weight for 180's in a 357?

If you're handloading then I'd look at 200gr hard cast.
2400, 4227, H110/W296, maybe Blue Dot are your friends

I believe, and carry:



Regards, Guy

I'm a believer.

180 grain HC in the S&W when I'm calling black bears.

I never carried for brown bears. But carry all the time when I'm in the swamp lands where black bears will regularly go to 500+ lbs and it's eay to encounter an unseen bear within 30 feet which I've done on several occassions (though 2 legged critters are likely far more dangerous).



I tend to carry 158 - 180 grain SJHP loads, but have fired the Buffalo Bore 180 grain hard cast, and carried them when I've hiked deep into the swamp with my camera. The SP101 cylinder is long enough to accomodate and function with them, but they are a handful in that gun. Easier yet is the GP100, and still more the Ruger Redhawk 8-shot .357. The Redhawk a pussycat with the hottest loads which make rapid, accurate fire failry easy. All these wear Hogue rubber monogrips at this time which, while not to pretty, make shooting hot loads easier.

The 180 gr hardcast .357 bullet from Cast Performance I believe is the same bullet used in the Buffalo Bore cartridges. I handload it to just under 1200 fps with 2400.

It is easy to shoot a string relatively fast, and my rudimentary penetration tests through wood have been impressive. I carry it frequently in a 6” S&W 686 in black bear country. I’ve never shot it into a bear of any sort.

'I could get three hits with the 10mm shooting 200 grainers at 1150 in the same time that I could get one hit with the .44 shooting 300 grainers at 1150."
Pa: Why is the first shot with 44 slower than the first shot with a 10mm?

Another perspective:

It's that the recoil effects of the .44 mag make follow ups that much slower. Truth be told for myself, with equivalent holsters I'm fastest on the first shot with a 1911, then a striker fired gun, then a Kahr or a revolver. I'm no Jerry Miculek, triggers matter for me.

I'm shooting a 200 WFN H-C at 1,200 out of a 5" 686.

Lotta good stuff in this post. IMO. Especially the part about stuff happening quickly and unexpectedly.
Ive seen very frightened brown bear and very pissed-off brown bear cover ground so quickly that it makes your jaw drop. Never had to shoot to stop one, but I've always thought afterward that it would have been very difficult to hit the bear AT ALL, much less in a vital. They are a big target for sure, but they can move so darn fast.

This is a good thread and fun to read the stories from you guys way up north who deal with Earth's biggest land predators. Lots of interesting perspectives and experience.

It seems to me that practicing with some kind of moving target that simulates a charge is a great idea. It was mentioned in the thread earlier and I have seen that suggested before on forums and in at least one article.

I'll relate what I have to offer regarding Buffalo Bores Heavy Outdoorsman round in .357 Mag.

When I lived in Arizona I used to like taking solo bowhunting trips all over the Mogollon Rim country and up on the north rim of the Grand Canyon in the Kaibab strip. I had a 4" S&W 686 and always kept it loaded with the BB Heavy Outdoorsman rounds. I didn't know squat about bears or how good they would work but I figured they were about as close as it would matter to whatever the best black bear medicine out of a .357 Mag was. Since I was always alone and far from immediate help I thought it was prudent to at least carry that.

I shot that gun a lot with other loads and sometimes tested the BB loads but I did not practice as much as I should have and never had a moving target to simulate a charge. But once I set a large Gatorade bottle that I filled with water and froze in front of a phone book and shot it with that round from my 686. I thought the phone book would catch the round but it just exploded the bottle of solid ice and penetrated through the thick phone book. I guess it buried in the dirt bank I leaned it against, I never found the slug.

I shot them over my chronograph and got an average just below 1500 fps from that Smith. It was an older one and someone told me they had fast tubes.

The only time I ever saw a bear in the woods was a day I had gone up to Knoll Lake to visit a buddy who was camping there with his wife and we did some fishing. I just had my XD9 Service that I carried in Phoenix with 124 grain Federal HST +P hollow points. I was heading home and saw a bear about 100 yards away. Even though it was far it looked big and needless to say I was feeling really undergunned!

I have an SP101 .357 Mag now with a 3" barrel that I carry with BB Heavy Outdoorsman rounds when I'm in the northern Michigan woods, if I'm not carrying a rifle. I also have a Blackhawk in .41 Mag and I have some 265 grain WFN rounds from Grizzly Cartridge Company that I carry in a Diamond D Guides Choice chest rig.

[quote=Cascade]I've been carrying Buffalo Bore's 180 grain cast 357's in my 3" Model 60. It's pretty doggone brutal to shoot. I was impressed with the accuracy.

Buffalo Bore rates it at 1300 fps from a 3" barrel and my chronograph confirmed that. Haven't personally done any penetration testing, but I believe that this ammo will penetrate sufficiently.

This. I carried the exact 3" M60 a bit until my hands, wrists needed some maintenance surgeries for arthritis. Even with heavy 38 Specials it was a handful! Gave it to my Marine SIL. As a compromise, I now carry a 6 shot, 4" SS Ruger Security Six ( one of the first made in 38 Spc only, #160-***** , very accurate) with DoubleTap ( Mostly Buffalo Bore) Outdoors 38 Special 158 HC. I can shoot it very fast and very well ( if I say so myself! ha) In that slightly heavier SS Ruger recoil feels like Target loads, but they do penetrate! Any handgun, to me, beats having to use my Cold Steel Outdoorsman.


P.S. I have been lusting at the S&W Mod 69, but would only use Buffalo Bore .44 Special 255 HC for the recoil reduction. It may be heavy enough to counter the recoil generated by the 44 Special. Oh well, it is a beauty at any rate, that Mod 69. I have had two Mountain Guns (.44 Mag and 45 Colt) but I couldn't shoot them well with the arthritis (stiff knuckles, painful palms/wrist) Right before my hands/wrist started acting up. I had a Freedom Arms Mod 97 , 45 LC I loaded the 270 Keith HC to a tad over 1000fps. It just became too hard to shoot well, so the surgery eat it up, had to sell. But it was a Bank Vault! A beautiful thing.

No that I have to worry about grizzlies, but I ordered a bunch of the hardcast GC 180gr bullets from Midway when they had them on clearance. Plan is to load them around 900fps to shoot out of a 4" Ruger Security Six, although I may hot rod them out of a .357 Max in a 14" Contender.

I clocked both of DoubleTaps 38 Special 158gr ( Hard cast and all lead Hollow Point) right at (CORRECTION: The DoubleTap do exactly 950fps in my 4" bbl, NOT 1250fps.) The Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 Spcl 158 Keith do right at 1150 out of my old Ruger! Found my note last night! Either load beats "a Ranger Thumb to the Eye" for old mama Black bear! ha

If anything, I think this video shows that the three most important aspects of any chosen bear defense round are 1, practice. 2, practice again. 3, practice some more.

You bet!

Short answer
YES !

In fact it has some genuine benefits over larger, heavy recoiling magnums. Primarily adequate penetration and lower recoil which allows for quicker repeat shots.

You could have said that on page 1 but I guess we wouldn’t have 5 pages of replies. 😀

I don’t think people fully understand what equals stopping power when it comes to handguns and bears but your input is fairly definitive. 😉

Tagged, and not for bears either.

At least I hope not.

What ever you shoot you have to make hits with it, fast hits which usually rules out the really big bores for most guys. It's better to use a lesser caliber with a heavy bullet & get your hits in fast because a bear isn't going to wait once he decides to come & talk to you. Phil Shoemaker is one of the most experienced & respected bear guides in all of Alaska & he stayed in the fight. The bear was focused on the two clients allowing Phil to pound lead into the bear that was trying to find the two clients.
I talked to him about this a little bit this summer at Raton, New Mexico & he knew he was in it until the finish. Good bullets in good places carried the day. A bear isn't impressed with shots in the mud! I don't think a 15 round mag has ever saved anyone, that's probably false insurance.

Dick

A very close friend was forced to kill a grizzly a few years back up in the Brooks range. He was carrying his sheep camp outfit on his back and the bear closed so fast he didn’t have time to drop the pack.

He told me as he drew his S&W 396 he told himself it had to be a head shot if it came down to time to shoot. Said when the bear came he focused on his head and as time slowed down it looked like his head was as big as a pencil eraser and his paws were the size of frying pans. His first shot at 25’ was a complete miss. The second at 10’ hit right above the left eye and the 250gr Keith bullet shattered the skull and penetrated on into the neck. He was using more or less the Skeeter Skelton load that probably goes 900fps + or - out of a 2” barrel.

Your handgun load doesn’t have to be a fire breather. But you have to be capable of shooting it.

Pretty sure that applies to all animals in all hunting and defense situations. Kind of a given, but maybe not.