I'm seeking some expert knowledge and opions regarding the .25-08 or .25-308 wildcat cartridge. I'm considering converting my .308 Win. rifle to the .25-08 cartridge. I've searched this entire forum using "25-08" and got no hits, so I'm starting this new thread.

Please let me know if I should raise this question in a different forum or if you know of another source of information for me. Thanks

Jayhawk Dan

Jay: it's an old wildcat generally called the 25 Souper. Should be a fine little cartridge, but it, IMO, is so close to the 250 Savage on one side and the 257Roberts on the other, that it has never been very popular.

Might try in the Custom Rifles & Wildcats forum.

Whatever makes you happy, but you will be basically re-creating the .257 Roberts in a different shape, just as the 7mm-08 is a "new & improved" version of the 7x57mm.

For me, I can't see the point, but then again almost all wildcats are not really logical. Don't let that stop you...."cause I can" is enough reason for a rifle looney!!!!

Interestingly, according to Jack O'Connor, this was what Winchester first intended to produce, until they heard that Remington was coming out with the .244. So they followed suit and necked down their design to 6mm. Too bad, as I think the .25-08 would have been a slightly better duel purpose cartridge.

I think so, too. I think it makes better use of the short 2.8" magazine length than the .250 Savage but gives a little more length flexibility than the .257 Roberts.

That said, if I were rebarreling a short action with a .308 bolt face, I'd probably go with a .25x.284. I've done 6x.284, it doesn't feed real smoothly, but to me the performance gain over .243 was worthwhile and I think I'd find the same in .25 caliber.

Tom

Ahem... http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/25-308.htm

If you can't see the page, you are using Internet Explorer instead of a good browser.

Personally, I'd rather have a 250AI or 260 if I wanted to run something with that kind of case capacity in a 2.8" action. The 25-284 is just as easy as the Souper, but grants some real performance gains in a short action rifle. Mine does 3,650fps with a 75gr V-max and 3,300fps or so with 100gr bullets. While the 284 case can present some OAL issues with high-BC bullets in the 6mm and 7mm variety, most of the .25cal bullets have shorter noses and can make 2.8" without issue.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...0_savage_or_the_25_souper_ta#Post2009896

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...h/true/Re_Where_is_the_25_08#Post1940005

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...h/true/25_308_25_Souper_HELP#Post1928994

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...e/Re_what_25_cal_Shortaction#Post1888682

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...true/Re_what_think_you_25_08#Post1766068

Why?
I'd build a .250 Savage or a .257 Roberts.
The .250 Savage is a little less than a than the .25 Souper and the .257 Roberts is a little more and all three will fit in most short actions.
So flip a coin.

Whats improved about a loss of powder capacity and therefore velocity?

257 Bob and 257 AI are incredible, whether through a short, intermediate, or standard length action.

7x57 is the ultimate in versatility.



Amen there.

I have a 270 WCF barrel laying around that I may have chambered to 270-308 Win just because. Dumb considering the 7-08 Rem, but sounds interesting... .

efw, Hope you understood I was being sarcastic when I described the 7mm-08 as a "new & improved" version of the 7x57. I agree, the 7x57 is the ultimate in non-magnum 7mm cartridges.

Great idea on the .270-308....just because you can....but somebody already beat you to the punch. Created in the 1940's, it was called the .270 Titus (actually the Titus was based on the .300 Savage for use in Savage 99 rifles, but it's basically your .270-308 with a shorter neck).

Still.........why the hell not!!!

TR, don your asbestos undies. The 280AI guys will be around soon with their flame-throwers.

--Bob

Jayhawk,

Being a little different is what "wildcatting" is all about. Forget the comparisons of this vs. that as I think it would make an interesting build, especially seeing you already own a .308. Rocky's article is an interesting read. Good luck with your choice.


CLB

google search 25 souper, they already did it. Its spelled just like soup my opinion of the cartridge is that it is a waste of money and time. it cant do anything that the 257 roberts cant do. But if building wild cats is how you get your jollies go for it

I'm with Pacman I do believe your 25-08 is the 25 Souper. In Wayne Van Zwoll's book Deer Rifles and cartridges he goes in detail on one he built with some handloading data. If you google 25 Souper you can get some info. Depending upon what action your using you maybe better off with a 257 Roberts AI but again there is nothing wrong with being a bit different..Good luck with the build.

Having loaded for and shot the 250AI, 257Roberts, 257RobertsAI, 25/06, 25/284, 257WSM, 25Souper and the Souper AI, I prefer the plain Souper. I have killed a lot of deer with mine. I use necked up 243 brass.Rick.

One might argue that the 257 Roberts won't do anything the 25-06 won't do, and the 25-06 won't do anything the 257 Weatherby won't do, and THAT won't do anything the 25 STW won't do ...

So are all but the biggest case per bore size worthless? Nope.

There's a niche for "justenuf" that can't be filled by something that's "modanenuf." The 25-308 fills that particular niche just fine. And for all who worship the 250 Ackley: surprise! The 25-308 is exactly the same, but without the case-forming hassles.

Except fit in a short action properly which it does better than a 257R.


.

The .257 fits fine in a short action. I have owned,shot and hunted with a bunch of 2.8" magazined .257 Bobs and it does indeed do anything the .25-08/.25 Souper will do, though I guess it won't do it "properly," whatever that means.

There is a gunsmith in Tappen ND by the name of Duane Spooner who has developed a cartridge with Hornady dies that he calls the .257 DGR. It is based on a .260 Rem case necked down to .257 caliber and the neck slightly lengthened. I had him make me one a few years ago on a Rem 7 action. It is virtually the same as the .25 Souper or 25-08. Really like mine and case forming is very easy by just necking down .260 brass and shooting. He calls his business Duane's Gun Repair (DGR). Google him if interested. He has some load data from his load development tests and others posted on his web site. Good luck with your project.

I knew I'd get someone with that troll. <g>


.

The same comments could be made for the .25WSSM. The 50.0 grains of water case capacity makes the WSSM precisely the same capacity as the basic .308 case.

Just a shorter, fatter format.

Steve

While we are on this topic, which of the 2(257R or 25 X 308) would fit better in a Ruger tang safety short action? I have just such a gun that will be made into one or the other one day and honestly I don't care which. Regards, John.

They would both work equally well.

Having three 257 Roberts rifles on short actions, which I like a lot, as well as one short action 250AI, I can see me getting a 25 Souper on a short action just because....

I forgot the 25 Wissississim, Steve. Thanks. Of course, most of the shooting world has already forgotten it, also. Perhaps I may be forgiven.

Friend Rocky,

Heck, I've forgotten it!!!!

I have to giggle every time I see one of Winchester's advertisements. The .25 WSSSSSM equals the .25-'06. Not in a pig's eye.

Fifty-grain capacity gives basic .308-case performance. Period.

In my opinion, the WSSM is the answer to an unasked question.

It also screwed the possibility of Winchester ever bringing out the .25 WSM, which would have been a HUGE financial success. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb. Just imagine a wonderful modern, low recoiling cartridge with performance between the .25-'06 and the .257 Weatherby ... it is the answer to a prairie hunter's dream and it would have sold like hotcakes.

You'd be surprised at how many of Winchester's execs and retired execs shoot .25 WSMs on a personal basis. They never talk about it, but it was a missed opportunity.

Beancounters SUCK!!!!!

Steve

25 WSM? 25 Souper?
Don't forget the 25BR.
As for me, the winter project this year is gonna be a 25 Better Bob.

May you enjoy it to no end, Dave.

But remember that cartridges are like laundry soap: just because the packaging is "Improved" doesn't mean what's inside is any better!

DS,

Great choice. I'm getting 3320 fps from 100 gr bullets w/out going over max listed charges, and getting pretty little clover leaves from said load.

I'm still planning to build myself a nice compact and light "standard bob" though. I don't think you can have too many 257 Bobs, 7x57s, or 30-06s, personally.

Keep us updated on the status of the project; I for one would love to see pics.

There is no such thing as a BAD 25 caliber

Except for the 25WSSM of course..

Couple of more questions. Except for the obvious(factory vs. case forming) is there any good reasons to pick a .257 over the 25 X 308 or vise versa? Also, when making a 25 X 308 case, is it better to use .243 and go up or .260 and come down? Thanks, again, John.

When I made mine, there were no 260s so I used 7-08 cases. One regular sizing pass is all it took with no rejects at all. The 260 would be even easier. You can use some 308 cases, but it is wise to use the seater die first as an intermediate form die (the neck are is larger on the seat die to allow room for a seated bullet). You might have to turn some necks because they'll be too thick.

I went down rather than up from 243 cases for the simple reason that it is very difficult to tell a 25-308 round from a 243 by sight and with the 243 headstamp it might be possible to get the wrong round into a rifle. That could be a problem.

You get an amen to that. The 257 SM should have been. Maybe Ruger can come up with a 25RCM.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that one of the biggest pooch screws ever by gun makers was Win's choice to not do the 257 WSM...

And, even though the 325 WSM has done better than I originally expected. I do feel that if they'd of done the 338 WSM it'd of had more staying power and a higher piece of the pie chart.

Dober

No doubt a 25 Wizzum was the way to go.

Dober +1 on the 25WSM idea...the boys in the back have literally built more of them, than we have sold of the 25WSSMs...oughta tell the marketers something, but if they were listening I'd have a rack full of Super Grade .300 H&Hs....
Ingwe

This is why I choose to neck brass down instead of up. There is also the tendency for necking down to create slightly thicker necks and maybe provide a bit tighter fit in the chamber.

I read a write-up on the 338 Fed in PS in which the guy said he gets less run-out when he necks cases down rather than up?

In that case, he said that he was necking match-grade 308 Win cases up to 358 and then back down to 338?

This was of interest to me, cuz I had a huge stash of 270 Win brass I've been using through my 338-06 with a single pass. Curious, since it has come up here, if you guys have an opinion on this?

FWIW, I've been running the 270 Win brass through the (Hornady) 338 die which seems to over tighten the necks, then through my Redding neck sizer to make 'em "just right", then annealing the cases before fire forming.

Thoughts?

Yes! 257 Bob case is larger, therefore more powder capacity.

Also, there is TONS of reloading data out there for the Bob.

Those who have built .25-308s seem to have had an easy time working up good loads quickly.

I would build one on a 20-inch full stock short action Model 70 if I ran across the action.

Short action model 70?

I own several short action Model 70s, but I don't want to tear them apart to build anything. I would rebarrel a .243 if I found one.

And awaaaaaay we go !

I don't believe that real short actions were built in Model 70 until FN started production. The rest were long actions with a wall set up to shorten the magazines.

When were the "several" that you own built?

There have been short-action Model 70's since the 1980's, even before the CRF action returned.

84 or 85 IIRC

Ah, ok... I guess I'm thinking "pre-64".

Thanks for taking me to school gentlemen!

..and I beg your pardon for the doubt there, Lee...

"Ah, ok... I guess I'm thinking "pre-64"."

Not just pre-64. 64 to 84 also. I have a 22-250 push feed built the way you described the magazine block. I am in the process of converting it to a long action.

My short action M70, a compact Classic .308, is now a .250AI with 22" Pac-nor barrel, all courtesy of the Free Classifieds.

Jayhawk, go for it I love mine. Mine is built on an old Remington 722 action Hart bull barrel and stocked in a HS precision stock. It is the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. If you want I can put you in touch with the guy that put mine together. Really nice guy and likes to build .25 wildcats.

arky65

Third biggest screw up was Remington not doing the 25-08 over the 260...

Also, despite my love for the Roberts, it's not a true, modern, SA round that fits a 2.8" magazine with minimal bullet jump to the lands... just can't agree a Roberts is ideal in a SA even though it works...

Ideal no... intermediate Mausers are their "ideal" home, but with a cartridge as ideal as the 257 Roberts is in and of itself regardless of action size, I am happy to take one just about wherever its chambered!

I need another SR'98 action to build "The Ideal Ideal Bob" .

Now that I've got a name, I HAVE to build it, right?

Danged 'fire keeps costing me more and more money...

I'd agree, Brad, 'cept I'd argue that it was Winchester who dropped the ball back in the 50's when they had the 25-08 in mind and changed at the last minute to .243. What a shame to have the 243 and the 260 when the 25-08 would do the job of both (and in an American, non-metric kind of way!).

Winchester built short action Featherweights in post-1964 push feed actions, and later in CRF actions in the Featherweight Classic, Classic Compact, and in the last two years before shutdown, the Custom Shop Short Action. I have some of each.

I would like to find some of the push feed or CRFs to cannibalize and build a .25-308 and a .358 Win in a 20-inch or 21-inch full stock, but haven't made any effort to look for candidates. I wouldn't want to pay much, because I would be tossing away the stocks and barrels, anyway. If I do these, they are more likely to end up in a Remington 700 SA, Model 7, or a Yugo 24/47 Mauser action with a butterknife bolt handle.

A Ruger No.1-A in .25 Souper would be a nice deer rifle.