I am debating myself on a cartridge for my 15 yr old daughter for her to hunt elk and plains game with. She presently shoots a .257 Roberts and shoots a .270 occasionally. I have stocks cut down that fit her on both rifles. I also have plinking loads for both guns that leaves the muzzle at 2000 fps. So she enjoys shooting and I just slip in a hunting load when we head to the field. In the excitement of a shot on game she never realizes the increase in recoil or velocity over her plinking loads.

One of her requirements with a rifle is that it does not weigh too much. Her .257 Roberts 700 Mtn rifle wears a Ti stock and the .270 700 ADL does too so both those guns are not too heavy. Since I shoot a .338 and I have a plinking load I use with a 180 BT and H-4895 that leaves the muzzle at 1950 fps I was thinking of picking up another .338 and let her use this. I could reduce hunting loads to .338 Federal or .338-06 levels? I thought about getting her a .338 federal but I am concerned with the lack of trajectory with that cartridge in making a 400 yd shot at an elk that is very possible where I hunt. The .338 federal would be fine in Africa for plains game. The other thought is maybe a .300 WSM? Maybe a 7mm Rem Mag?

Here�s the debate I keep telling myself the .270 she has will be fine and just let her keep shooting that rifle and gain more confidence and go hunting. But I personally would not choose to take a .270 on my elk hunts or on a trip to South Africa for plains game so why would I let my daughter do so? I�m stuck what would you do?

IIRC, Eileen Clark (JB's wife) is rather fond of a .257 Roberts for just about everything (including elk), as was Jack O'Connor's wife.

And, of course, Jack thought rather highly of the .270 for the same.

Personally, I'd much rather a good, familiar rifle in a capable cartridge than a new, unfamiliar, "more powerful" rifle. Either her .257 or her .270 fit the first category (to me) just fine.

I agree but she will be going on a mule deer and antelope hunt in 2011 and elk hunts in 2012 & 2013 and then the trip to Africa in 2014. Plus all the hog hunting and deer hunting she wants to do in the Carolinas. So she would have plenty of opportunity to get acquainted with a new rifle, if we choose to go that route.

I'd think the Bob for most of the stuff and a light'ish 7mm08 for the bigger stuff. It certainly kicks less than a 270.

+1 on the 7-08, especially stoked with premium boolits...

Load TSX/TTSXs in either of her current rifles, and I'll bet:

1) That they don't bounce off;

2) That a BUNCH of stuff gets very dead, very quickly; and,

3) That the guide(s) better have a sharp knife handy.

Of course, if the premise if to get her another rifle, well, that's another story all together...

You aren't stuck....the 270 has been rolling elk and plains game since 1925.....I would not allow my prejudices about what constitutes a good elk/plains game cartridge to interefre with what she is comfortable with. I would allow my daughter to shoot what she shoots best,give her good bullets and not allow my prejudices to interfere with what works well for her....and millions of other hunters.Many dead elk will testify on her behalf.JMHO

The more I think about it, a 270/08 makes even more sense.

AIed?

Don't be silly...


Honestly though, I can't imagine not having my daughter/son run a SA cartridge. I'm sure there is a benefit to having longer cartridges poke you in your pocket and burning more powder but I'm not sure what that benefit is.

She will do fine with the 270. I'd use it on elk, and it will do just fine on plains game, in Africa. Use quality bullets, and let her keep shooting. Lots of critters have been dumped with a 270. Besides, it's like everybody sez....it's the 1st shot that counts.


maddog

308 Win, 270 Win or 7-08 Rem would be my recommendation.

My to be 14 year old will be using an old Walther Mauser 7x57 and the 140 gr E-Tip on plains game in 2012. He shoots it well now so things should be fine and I have zero doubt with the cartridge/bullet combo. If buying new I suspect I would go the 7mm-08 route as well, same same.

Speak softly or we'll be in for more pages of 270/08

45-47 gr 4064 and a 130 gr bullet in the 270Win case,and you got one....course when we conjured up such loads, there was no 7/08.

Well this may not make sense to you, but if your intention would be to have her shoot a 338 with practice loads at home and then when she is hunting to "slip in" full power or near full power loads thinking she will not notice may not go so well when you consider the increase in ft lbs of recoil from full power 270 to full power 338's.
You say you are doing the elk hunt's in the next couple of years and the Africa trip in 3 years so she will be 18 by then I presume?
In my own personal experience with female shooters recoil is a very big deal and if they sense any trickery on my part the firearm gets handed to me and that is the end of the session.
Now I have no idea of your daughters personality and maturity so I offer my observations out of my own experience only.

I have never hunted elk, but that is supposed to change in 2011 and dream of Africa, but from my research a 270 or something in the 7-08 class does the job with distinction.

Ron Spoomer has an article in either the latest Rifle or Handloader about his wife taking several species of plains game with a 7-08 and 140gr A-frames I believe.

Could be worth a read.

Absolutely!! Nothing against the .277's but in this case the 7mm/08 covers anything the short 270 would do and then some.Of the newer calibers on the scene in short action configs the 260 and 7/08 are great...IMO Flem

I'd buy a new rifle, make it a .260 Rem, stoke it with 140 gr. Partitions or 160 gr. Woodleighs or 130 gr. TTSX and get ready to see smiles on her face and meat in the freezer. European hunters have been killing "moose" (elk) with the 6.5x55 Swede for a century and didn't know they were under-gunned. Your daughter won't know it either.

I've killed elk with several different cartridges...they all died, haven't lost one....I've killed more elk with a .270 Win and 150 NPTs than any other single cartridge [I killed my first elk more than forty years ago.] While I use my 9.3X62 for plains game..I haven't killed any plains game in africa [including eland] that would not have died when shot through the chest with a .270 and premium bullet. The plethora of really good bullets today makes cartridges that forty years ago were marginal a whole lot more effective. I'm still a charter member of the good shot placement camp. And I believe that's easier done with a rifle we shoot often and are comfortable with.

Going this route I could just stick with her .257 Roberts. For hunting she presently shoots a 100 gr TSX but I could up that to 115 gr. TSX or go to a 120 gr. Partition or A-Frame. But again I am worried about a 400 yd shot at an elk and having enough velocity and energy to properly dispatch the elk. I have only shot a few anilamls at 400 + yds but where we hunt that is a very possible shot. Of course if a stalk lended itself to get closer that is exactly what we would do.

Energy doesn't kill critters; holes in votals do.

Put a good bullet in the vitals, with enough mojo to poke all the way through (over-penetrate), and it's a dead critter. Very few bullets dig through and punch out like a TSX/TTSX, and either of the cartridges she's currently shooting offer the horsepower to kick one of those bullets well enough to do the job.

The 7-08 suggestion for the SA (Kimber Montana?) is not a bad one at all.

308, totally elk capable. Mild recoil (given the right handle). Available world wide. 270 ditto, but more recoil.

Forget the Mag's...

7mm-08 w/ 150 NP's chuggin along @2700 and a good pad, will git it done for her.

Gunner

The only potential fly in the .308 ointment is that it might not be legal in the African country they'll be hunting (military round restrictions). If that's not an issue, then don't fret it.

Agreed on forget the magnums.

It is, however, rather amazing that hunters before our time, and older hunters, and women, and locals, tend to kill the absolute Hell out of critters with no difficulty using "marginal" cartridges...

Regardless of headstamp, good on you for doing all you are doing with your daughter. Enjoy!

It sounds like the folks here want to talk you into buying a new rifle, so they could then talk you out of these well-thought-out shooters! A 700 Mountain Rifle in a Ti stock is just about... perfect!




And there's your answer!

I can't argue with the suggestions of .260's, or 7mm-08's, or .308's. It's just that I'm too dense to sense much difference between those suggestions and the .270 when it comes to recoil or killing power. Gradually step her up into full power hunting loads, get into some 150 grain bullets, & let her shoot 'til she's proficient from field positions. And if you've got 2 or 3 years before the Africa hunt, let her be the one to come to you, say, "Dad, I think I'm gonna need a bigger rifle."

Regardless, you're on the leading edge of our culture to be investing in your relationship with your daughter. Kudos to you!

FC

C-Roy,

Try a .277" 130 grain Nosler E-Tip started at around 2600 fps (possible with H4895 - Hodgdon can help with more info). Based on Nosler's listed BC for the E-Tip, that 2600 fps muzzle velocity should give you 1800+ fps impact velocity out past 400 yards (Nosler's recommended minimum impact velocity is 1800 fps for the E-Tip). The nice thing is the recoil on that load would be around 13 ft-lb for a 6.5 lb gun. You could have her practice with 130 grain Ballistic Tips at even lower velocity.

You could also use a 130 grain Accubond or Partition, but you would want to bump up the muzzle velocity a little due to the lower ballistic coefficients for the Accubond and Partition (perhaps 50 fps for the Accubond and 100 fps for the Partition - check with an external ballistic calculator).

One word of caution - Due to the higher impact velocity needed for Barnes TSXs, I would increase the muzzle velocity by at least 200 fps if I was going to use a 130 gr TSX instead of an E-Tip (and I certainly wouldn't recommend using the TSX if you are trying to minimize recoil). If you REALLY want to use TSXs, talk to Barnes about minimum impact velocity for the bullet you are considering and then use an external ballistic package to see what muzzle velocity you need to stay above the minimum impact velocity out past 400 yards.

C_ROY----------You forget one important thing.....
What does SHE wanna hunt with???????laffin



George

my daughter uses a 7-08 to chase everything from speed goats to elk......

If you load the .270 down 100 fps with a good 130-140 grain bullet, such as a Barnes TTSX or Nosler E-Tip, it will kick like a 7mm-08 and neatly kill any elk or plains game.

The .270 Winchester is a pretty good version of the .270-08 AI. It's even popular in Africa!

JB, my girl shoots EXACTLY that load on elk (mild 270 with 130 TSX's), and the tenderloins last night were beyond delicious.

The only thing better would be if she could carry the HEAVY pack out next time..... LOL! Dutch.

Dang those lazy kids anyway! But congratulations are in order, all around.

Ok I am not calling anyone out because I know I am a hypocrite when it comes to these types of recommendations. I too have advised folks that they are better off with their deer rifle than buying a new magnum rifle before their first elk hunt but who here actually hunts elk with a 7-08 or .270?

I carry my .338 and will use it again next fall in WY and when I hunt caribou in AK just like I did this year in BC hunting moose. Granted these areas are grizz areas and I felt better with the .338 in tow than with my .270. When my daughter I and go to Africa for plains game I will be bringing the .338 as well.

So fess up do you practice what you preach?

C-Roy,

If you would feel better about your daughter using "more gun," then try a .308" 150 grain E-Tip out of a .308 Win or .30-06 (or .300 Savage) at around 2550 to 2600 fps or a 150 grain Accubond at around 2600 fps (again look at H4895 for your powder). The recoil would be around 15 to 16 ft-lb for a 6.5 lb gun, and those loads should be good out to a little over 400 yards. Even if your daughter is recoil sensitive, she should be able to work up to that level of recoil over the next two years.

I would suggest you look at a 6.5x55. I have one and they are very accurate with not much more kick that a .243. They are used in Africa a lot for Antelope up to and including 600 LB Antelope. They are also used to hunt Moose in Finland and the upper Europian countries. We have disregarded the metic calibers for the most part in this country. This is a .270 Junior or so to speak. Fun to shoot at the range. Bullets weights from 100grn to 160 grain. Mine really likes the 120 Barnes TTSX and a Max. load of RL-19. I have a Tikka T3. Buckfever1

C-Roy,

Going back and reading your post about your daughter's hunt schedule (mule deer and pronghorn in 2011, elk in 2012 and 2013, and Africa in 2014), I would recommend working your daughter up to something between a very mild and a full powered .257 Roberts load for your mule deer and pronghorn trip in the fall (let your daughter give you input on what she is comfortable with in terms of recoil), and then working up to the mild 2600 fps .270 130 grain E-Tip load for the first elk hunt, and then evaluate whether you want to step up to a mild .308 Win 150 grain E-Tip (at 2550 to 2600 fps) load for the second elk hunt and Africa hunt. You can evaluate along the way, and as she gets older and progresses in her shooting, she'll let you know how she's doing with gradually increasing recoil.

The first key is good accuracy from your daughter and her enjoyment in shooting and hunting. Diameter of bullet is less important than either of those other factors.

................After reading your post, you may be looking for problems where there may not necessarily be any?

Since its intro in the mid 20s, the 270 has taken ALOT of elk and over many decades, its been successfully used on small and large African plains game as well. One`s comfort level or lack of it with a certain cartridge is no doubt a personal thing, but I as just one observer, fail to understand why the 270 would not be adequate for elk or for African plains game.

But with that said, everything is going to have a tradeoff. If you go to say a 7 Rem Mag or to a 300 WSM for your daughter, you will have some increased recoil. And if any new rifle happens to be a lighter one for her to easily carry while on hunts as you indicate that you wish for, the field recoil and bench recoil both will increase.

Imo, I would simply keep her shooting the 270. It is an excellent cartridge which exceeds the 257 Roberts in power. And although it won`t quite have the ballistic power on paper of the 7 Rem Mag or the 300 WSM, it is nonetheless an excellent compromise between the 257 that you have now vs any proposed 7mm RM or 300 WSM.

No one with any knowledge should be telling you, that a 270 is not a sufficient elk round or is not a sufficient African plains round. If so, many would disagree with such an assessment.

C ROY
There are gobs and gobs of people here in Montana that hunt elk with a 7/08 and the 270. And, for what it's worth, there has NEVER, at least to my knowledge, been ANYONE killed or mauled by a grizzly because they had a 7/08 or 270 instead of a larger rifle.
With decent bullets, either of those cartridges would go end to end on a grizzly, I would guess, but it's kind of an educated guess from having shot a couple of animals with that class cartridge.

Fred

If she's running a 270 already, then just stick with that. Might toss in a little tougher slug for some of the heavier game.

Two 270's and a 280 in our family. I tend to shoot whatever gun I last purchased -- this year a 358 Norma -- but that's sort of like a 270, isn't it? Dutch.

Are you serious?

You will find more serious elk hunters in this country use .30 cal AND SMALLER rounds than those that use cals over .30

I bet your your daughter will kill just as many animals cleanly with a .270 as you will with your .338 win mag.

Subjecting her to more recoil is not going to kill animals any more "dead"(even Elk) and it's not going to help her place shots any better either.

270 sounds a bit heavy for elk. 243 kills 'em pretty well from what I hear.

If a .270 is not good enough for elk I am going to have to take the one out of my freezer and throw him back. It was a 1 shot kill (with a non premium bullet).

T'were it me I would find a good load for the .270 and practise, practise, practise. Might even bow to pressure & see what load would be accurate with the Barnes TSX.

She'll be 18 when she goes to Africa. I'd keep her with a 270 if she shoots one well now.


Okie John

How many deer, hogs, whatever has she killed so far with the .257/.270 ammo switcheroo trick?

Has she killed anything out to 400 yards? That is a long poke for anybody.

Might orta get her a .22-250 and spend some time prairie dog shooting, first.

If she likes her rifles light, a light .338WM would just hurt.

Of course, you could just rig her up her very own .257 Weatherby Ultralight zeroed at 300 and using dots...

C_ROY,

Evidently you somehow don't like the answers you're getting.

In answer to your "challenge" about who here has actually hunted elk with a 7mm-08 or .270, then I'm one. Well, actually not a 7mm-08 but a 7x57, which is the same thing ballistically. Have also watched my wife use the .270 on not just several elk but a medium-sized Montana moose. Never a problem.

I've also used the 7x57 on a pretty big Canadian moose and several of the larger African plains game species. I've never taken a .270 to Africa but have seen it used in the hands of other hunters to take a number of supposedly super-tough animals, including gemsbok, zebra, wildebeest, etc. Also never a problem.

I must also comment that the percentage of elk hunters here in Montana who use the .338 is quite tiny, at least in my experience. The number of hunters I've met who've actually used the .338 can be counted on one hand--and that would include myself. I have used the .338 on elk (and plains game), but don't much anymore.

In fact, I would wager a considerable amount of money that that more non-residents than residents use a .338 when hunting elk in Montana. It's well-known fact that big game animals get harder to kill further from home.

The most popular elk cartridges in Montana are probably the .270, 7mm Remington Magnum and .30-06, but I do know several hunters who've killed over 10 elk apiece with the 7mm-08.

I'm another that has used the 7x57..on literal truckloads of elk and PG....

Take the 270 with some solid TTSX loads and all will die in short order.

JB,
I want to make sure I have vetted this topic to where I am OK with what I decide. Also I am sure the rifle loony in me is looking for an excuse to buy a new rifle.

Aha! The harsh truth surfaces!

C_ROY,
It's her hunt, let her choose. In southern Australia we hunt a large deer called Sambar. In my mind the ideal chamberings are the 35Whelen, 338WinMag and 9.3x62. A mate's son however started with his father's 270Win and never looked back. Kept borrowing Dad's rifle to shoot Sambar and Fallow deer ... lots of deer. Killing is about placing a projectile in the right place that penetrates to the vitals, not caliber. Let her take her 270Win that she is confident in, use a good projectile and then be prepared for her to out shoot you with it no matter the size of the animal.
Cheers...
Con

IIRC & FWIW, Ross Seyfried said that the fastest he'd seen a lion dropped was with a 270 Win and 150gr Partitions...

I can fully understand the looniness that can drive one to ask these questions, as I'm guilty. I don't quite know exactly how her rifle is set up, so what about loony-ing it up with some custom touches (ie swirly in her choice of colors) or getting some top flight glass put on it, etc? Just a suggestion.

Have her read Jack OConner's account of an older farmer, I believe hunting with Harry Selby, showing up with a beat up old 270 and a pair of dyed bilious green overalls. He proceeded to shoot the longest string of one shot kills the PH had ever seen on Safari. This included Zebra and Eland I believe.

Wait till she stops growing and get her a really nice rifle of her choice and chambering. A lightweight short stocked 338 could cause many people to lose interest in shooting.

Also those suggesting a 22 or some of some sort share my thoughts.

Get a 223 and load it to the same trajectory as the 257 & 270 and then try to wear the barrel out. This will do a lot more to insure confidence on a longer shot than some hard kicking medium bore would.

+1 here in Idaho although the .300 Win Mag is popular by alot of locals....

I have two daughters and I let them choose what they want to shoot..In fact my Wife had her choice of weapons for her Moose hunt and chose the 300 Win Mag over both my .270's and her beloved 8MM.She shoots it quite fine.

From experience,the worst thing you can do is tell any woman what to do or what to use,young or old.

Jayco

I have never been to Africa..but have been all over North America...with an ol' pre 64 Model 70 FW in 270 I have shot 26 of NA 29 big game animals using the 130 NP....the only animals I have not shot with my 270 are Polar Bear, Kodiak/Brown Bear and Grizzly..I have done the same thing with my pre-64 30-06...I'd say let her shoot the 270...

I bought a delightful Rem 600 as my wife and kids "big" rifle. It's in 6mm Rem and I planned to re-barrel to 260. I think the 260 or 7-08 or 308 for that matter are fantastic cartridges. The recoil to power ratios are outstanding as is their killing ability to 300 yards.

Problem is the 6mm has been such a sweet shooter that my wife won't allow me to touch it. No Elk but the 100 grain Nosler Partition or 115 grain Barnes originals shoot through big caribou and leave a good wound channel. In fact I have slipped down to 85 grain partitions for caribou and they work very well too and shoot 2 inch groups at 300 yards. Pretty good sheep gun for Dad when mom isn't looking as well.

My wife won't shoot over 200 yards because that's were her ability is right now. The 6mm has not been a handicap so far. In fact it has been a revelation. Maybe we have become a bit overpowered in our rifle choice? When we shoot the thing out it will likely become a 260. Until that unlikley day the little 6 serves surprisingly well from sheep to caribou to moose season.

Lots of KS farmers have a .270 or a .30-06 as their only centerfire rifle. It is used for coyotes, both deer, and goes elk hunting, when they go. If she has a .257 and a .270, I can not imagine any short action, non mag cartridge, that will improve on the two of them.

I have a .338-06 that is a nice bigger bore. I really do not notice that much recoil difference between it and my .270, but I am big and heavy, and I only seem to shoot with lots of clothes on. Good luck.

Alot of good advice here and if its a need to buy a new rifle then go ahead but stick to a cartridge she is comfortable with. Remember most say the 270 has been doing it since 1925, add another 30 yrs on to that for the 7x57 and that was with big, slow slugs. With today's bullets a nice Kimber Montana in say a 7mm-08 will have her punching her tags regularly.

By the way, you want to adopt me, those are some great hunts you have planned

Precision not power kills, have her keep at it with the Roberts and the .270 and she will rock the world and will fill up a few arks.

From where I sit she needs more trigger time with those two combo's and not a new rig. I've used the .270 for a long time now and believe I've seen more elk taken with it (and it is a lot of elk) and it's never failed to take the elk cleanly from close to far.

From where I sit there's only a couple of animals in this world that I'd prefer not to take on with a .270. And if I was taking those critters on it'd be with a .375 of some sort.

Lots of good rounds out there that will handle her needs however I feel she's already there. So I don't feel that getting her another rifle will be doing her any favors.

Side note, this last year I was around 2 youths (12/13) and my wife shot them as well and all 3 of them thought that the .270 was easier on them than the 7/08's they were shooting...and the 7/08's were not light weights (about 8 lbs with scope, no sling and or rounds). Guess my point being the 7/08 doesn't have enough less recoil than the .270 does to worry about. Or at least that's how I see it.

Seriously, come on out to Montana this summer. Hit the rivers a bit and we'll take her to the the Dober Dog school of shooting for a few days and you'll find out quickly that she doesn't need anymore gun.

Now if you wanna buy a new gun, then do it for yourself. But for the young lady just buy her more bullets/powder etc and have her get 500 rounds per year thru each rifle from field positions.

Best of luck to ya.

Dober

If I was going to do anything other than the .270, I would jump up to the 30-06. It is very tractable with reduced loads--you can take it all the way down to 30-30 equivalents, if you want. It can give you any performance characteristics you want, from .270 to 7-08 to 7x57 to .308 to 30-06 all through your choice of bullet and velocity.

C Roy, confidence is a powerful thing. Keep what you have in the .270, if she has confidence in her ability w/ it.

If you must do something different, and I take it from your notes here that you want something else, definitely make it the 7x57. The gods will smile, stars align, and luck will be upon her.

+1 with Dober...the 270 will handle anything in North America with the exception of the big bears...

C Roy:

If you need a little more convincing that the 270 is all she will ever need for elk or African plains game, read this from Ross Seyfried:

"The most successful African Safari I ever guided was shot with a .270 Winchester loaded with 150 grain Nosler Partition bullets. The rifle was ancient and worn, a pre-war Model 70. The �driver� was past 70 years old and this was his only rifle; a rifle that he has used for many decades in most of the hunting grounds of the world. He shot two extremely tough animals, a zebra and a wildebeest, first. Each fell to a single shot, as did a huge lion. He broke a sitatunga�s neck (that was the only target) offhand, in the wind, at 300 yards. An elk-sized kudu bull tumbled when the bullet hit the point of his shoulders. There was no real magic; just a great rifle, fine bullet and unimaginable skill on the part of the rifleman."

"Over the last dozen years my son and I have guided for more than 100 elk here at Elk Song. They have been taken with a remarkable spectrum of rifles ranging from 4-bore to 6.5 mm, with a good selection of .577s, .416s, .375s, 338s and .300s in the middle. Many of them have been taken with .270s and I can tell you that no cartridge puts an elk on the ground more quickly than the .270 Winchester loaded with the magnificent (and now non-existent) 140 grain Winchester Failsafe bullet. (Some of the Barnes X designs are producing similar results.) The reason for the grand success is twofold, and returns us to the beginning: first the hunters hit very precisely with the gentle rifle and second, the bullet performance is off the scale."

You can see the entire article at www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-busting-the-magnum-myth/

7-08 with 120 gr TSX or if you're (she's) more comfortable with a heavier bullet, then the 140 Partition.

No recoil, lots of good packages, the Rem 700 Mountain LSS being at the top of the currently available list.

MM

This is just me..but if I had a Roberts I was liking I'd use a 115 Nozler in it b4 I bought a 7/08 and ran a 120 in it, Course me being kind of odd I see having the .270 in the same manner. Point being, if I had one already I wouldn't be for buying a 7/08 and running a 140 in it..grin

Guess I'm just trying to say they already have a Roberts and a .270 so why purchase a 7/08?

Just my way I guess.

Dober

Agree 100%... if you have a 257 Rob, the 115 Partition is potent.

If you want more...

Get a 270... uses the same powders as the 257 but with a heavier payload.

You're gonna get me to build that dang Roberts yet aint ya..

Thinking it'd be about perfect for old Longball (can u belive he'll be 12 this Aug)for this fall eh??

Dober

I'd sell them both, buy a 7mm08, which will easily do what either of the aforementioned cartridges can do and take the extra loot left over and spend it on hunting.

That pretty much sums it up....

I'm a .270 junkie and always have been owning two and the one time I strayed from the 130 Nosler it was to use the brand new at that time,140 grain Fail Safe.The absolute worst bullet I have ever used in the .270..Penciling through game without opening up evidently by the holes I saw and no recovered bullet.

The first opening morning a fine bull hit solidly behind the shoulder area with little showing of being hit and he was gone with the rest.I new I hit him and gave him sometime then went after him with little blood to see.Found him later quite aways from where I hit him down hill as usual with a very small entry and same sized exit.

The second the very next day was a nice 4X4 Whitetail and I wanted this baby.Took my time at 200 yards and saw hair fly.I new bu the time I got around and over to him,I had my Deer..NOT..Same thing...Small hole in and small hole out with little apparent expansion and another blood hound search and rescue operation to find it also at the bottom of the steep canyon... .

I have the other 15 Winchester loaded 140 grain Fail Safes somewhere around here I will never shoot again.That batch sucked big time.I remember reading in Petersons Hunting Boddington had the same problem in Africa with the "new" Fail Safe...

Noslers or Trophy Bonded for me..Period.

Jayco

This is the route I have went. I have bought a 700 sps in .223 for all of us to shoot more. This will scratch my itch for a new rifle and she can keep shooting her .257 and the .270 for hunting.

OK this .223 has a 24" barrel on it. One thing I have noticed that turns off my girls on a particular rifle from the first time the pick it up is if it feels heavy and awkard to them. I think the 24" barrel is too long. Her .257 and the .270 both have 22" barrels. This rifle will be used exclusivey at the range maybe some varmint hunting but not likely as it is hard to get in big game hunting time with their school & athletic schedules. So what should a cut the barrel back to 21" or 22" probably either one would work.

Thanks for all the input guys.

22, 23, 24... all are good on the 223. If the barrel contours of all these rifles are different (.55 at the muzzle vs. .6) it's going to be hard to get them to feel the same. Assuming they're close to the same, with the same action make, a 23" barrel on a Short Action will feel pretty good compared to a 22" barrel on a Long Action...

So I guess the answer is "it depends"...

Can't speak to the .277/140 Failsafe, but there was a batch of bad .308/180 FS's I used... never had an issue with the 308/165 FS though.

I think all the "expanding monolithic's" have issues from time to time... one thing they generally will do though is penetrate like heck.

I like all the suggestions....but why not fit a rifle first? Daughters...girls...women...come in all different shapes & sizes, why not tune the rifle? Her results will be legendary with the correct fit. As to cartridges, most shorter actions likely will fit & feel better. So for cartrige selection, I'd go with the 308 class...260 my fav, but let the rifle pick her options.

That Seyfried article is one I have in the file and reminds me again what a great writer he is. Put Ross, Mule Deer, Eileen and few others together in a monthly publication and you'll have a winner!

I would start cutting the 223 back an inch at a time, setup the way you plan to shoot it, to test the balance. When it gets to where they like it, put a crown on it and shoot it.

A 223 does just fine with a 20" barrel.

Yeah, I've owned .223's with everything from 16" to 26" barrels, and they've all killed stuff out to at least 400 yards.

In teaching kids, I feel it's important that the practice gun is set up just like the 'big gun'.

I'd have a gunsmith play with the 223Rem to match weight and feel as much as you can, but most importantly, get the trigger weights set up identically.
Cheers...
Con

IMHO have a 7mm-08/7x57mm Mauser with 140 grain bullets, or a 270 Winchester shooting 130 grain bullets.

Have a gunsmith make the buttstock length of pull and the barrel length short enough to fit her. And set the trigger for three pounds. Make sure that the set to where she can easily see the sight picture with.

the scope

My 10 year-old has killed kudu, zebra, black wildebeest, nyala, black bear, and dozens of deer, hogs, and smaller plains game with his .260 and Federal's 120-grain Barnes TSX load. My daughter also killed a kudu with one shot from the same gun. I Like the .260 because it has just a hair more recoil than a .243 but kills and penetrates so well. All his big animals were one-shot kills, and we got exit wounds with most of them. Several of my clients have gone to the .260 for their kids as well and have similar success with them in Africa. Because it has such mild recoil, you can also build them a gun that's light enough for them to carry comfortably that won't beat them up.

That's not an issue in any African country I know of.

I've used a .270 to take several bull elk. All were one-shot kills, including one at 396 yards. I've also used a .260 once with similar results. That said, I prefer a .300 with good 180s for elk. However, I've trained lots of youth and lady shooters. They are often very recoil sensitive and weigh a heck of a lot less than we do. If she shoots a smaller cartridge well, stoke it with good bullets and turn her loose.

I've seen lots of animals lost that were shot poorly with big guns, but I can't recall seeing a heart-shot animal lost no matter what it was shot with.

Let her continue to hunt with what she is comfortable using.

Spend the $$ you would spend on a rifle, on some steel plates that will keep her enthused with practicing from field positions. Kids and adults alike love to hear steel ring. It is a great motivator. Find a female friend she can shoot with too. Keep it fun for her.

I have no doubt the .270 with a deep-penetration bullet will kill any Elk in NA with a proper shot. I feel the short action bullets have merit in ballistics, and rifle characteristics so if you're getting something new I'd say the .270 WSM, 7mm WSM (since you reload) or the 300 WSM all excellent choices in that order.
One merit the .270 has; easy to find ammo and it's usually relatively cheap, why spend extra dollars unnecessarily?


For Africa - I've got no idea why you'd want to go there anything they have in Africa you can legally shoot I'm pretty sure we've got in Texas.

I killed my elk with my 270/150gr. Partitions. 'Nuff said.

My son in law, who has a beautiful .270, just got the hots for one of the Super Whomper .30 caliber short magnum cartridges.

No way he was going to listen to anything but his "extensive research".(he is a teacher) Yup, yup! Just t'other day he was telling me he "missed" 2 coyotes at no more than 200 yds, and a mule deer at~400. (He and his buddies all have those little rangefinder thingies, and think they are some sort of laser-eyed supermen.) I admire my son-in-law, who is a quadraplegic, and hunts from his wheelchair, or off a 4 wheeler, but he is no way a marksman! Wasn't before his accident, either,but his condition makes him more susceptible to heavier recoil, IMO.

Shots he could make easily with his 270, he misses with his monster masher! He, and most anyone else who shoots the larger calibers, IMO, is overgunned! The resulting flinch is causing his misses.

Your daughter will probably be the same...we shoot best what kicks us least...and, as the majority of people have said, if she is comfortable shooting the .270, it will probably do all she may ask of it.
If it doesn't have a good recoil pad, put one on, or better yet, replace the existing one, because they do harden with age.

I haven't tried the lower-velocity rounds, but they wouldn't make them, if there wasn't a market! How many times have you heard lately of a business doing something "just because it's a nice thing to do"?

Anyway, good luck to you and your daughter.