Anyone take any game with one?
Here a Canadian gentleman and his son have taken a Musk Ox and an eight foot Grizz with one shot each with the 6.8

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7621043/m/4191033741

I am interested in hear the bullet used and the results. I have one and thus far I have been favorably impressed with the cartridge

This cartridge seems like it would be a natural fit for youth rifles, a dedicated rifle for women and for making up into a lightweight "mountain rifle" for all-around use.

It apparently kicks less than a .243 but drives a 115gr, .277-cal bullet fast enough to be a good deer load out to 300 yards or so.

I hope it catches on as a sporting cartridge!

I was hoping it would "catch on" a lot more than it has, so far. Like LC brass being manufactured, etc.

It is currently a centerfire specialty cartridge, like a 250 savage or 257 Rob.

I wish they had brought it out in 6.5, so we could use the Nosler 100 gr partition. Might have had a squabble with Grendel over that.

Sycamore

http://www.ssarmory.com/success.aspx

JWP,

Check out the link above. There are some examples there.

The 110 AB the 85 & 110 grain TSX, the 95grain TTSX and the 110grain Sierra Pro Hunter are SSA's most popular hunting loadsm, with the Pro Hunter being the most popular.

I have taken a few pigs with the 6.8 SPC, and one coyote. It works very well indeed.

The bullets I used were mostly a prototype of the Barnes Tipped TSX bullet that weighted, if I recall correctly, 95 grains. It worked great.

I was hunting with Bill Wilson (Wilson Combat), who also makes pretty nice AR's, on his ranch in east Texas. Bill and his wife have shot a number of whitetails with the 110-grain Nosler AccuBond, and like it better than the Barnes for that purpose, because the AB kills quicker. For pigs Bill likes the deeper penetration of the Barnes.

My new AR is chambered in 6.8. It has a White Oak Armory 18", mid length gas, spec II, 11-twist barrel. It shoots 110s very well -- around .75 MOA. I've killed several feral hogs so far with the 110 Accubond with great results. All shots so far have been within 100 yards, but it's done the job quite well.

I like it!

Do you think the round's popularity with the black rifle set hurts it with "mainstream" hunters?

No idea, but I doubt it, simply because ARs have become increasingly more "mainstream."

Either way, as long as I can get brass, I don't particularly care how popular it is. I wouldn't choose it for a bolt action, but I think it makes a lot of sense in the AR15 platform.

what can the 6.8SPC do that a .223 with a 62 grain TSX cannot do? I think nothing except cost more, require costly special magazines, require a special bolt, and be a "specialty cartridge forever"

Where the rubber meets the road, prolly not much, but it will make a larger diameter wound channel and wreck more of a critter's clockwork while penetrating as deep, so I believe it's more immediately lethal on larger hogs. Having double the bullet mass means that the bullet can expand to larger frontal diameter and still penetrate as well as the 62 TSX. I've never not had complete penetration so far. It may be a "specialty cartridge" in a way, but now that I have brass and dies, it's no more "specialty" than anything else, since it uses .277" bullets. Magazines aren't that much more expensive, and you only have to buy them once. Bolts are readily available and work just fine with standard AR15 bolt carriers. You do lose 5 rounds on the largest magazines, but that's no big deal. Overall, building mine didn't cost much more than building a 5.56 out of the same brand components.

Plus, the biggest reason is I already have several .223's, and I like having something different just 'cause.

Fairly easy to say that the 6.8 offers nothing over the 5.56 from the comfort of our computers, but ask some fellas who's life depends on there weapons and most will tell you they will gladly take the 6.8 given the option.

People forget that the 6.8 was not made for hunting or long range shooting, its purpose is was short and midrange combat and at that it does very well and there is no question about it outperforming the 5.56 round in those categories. However you start putting the 6.8 to tasks that it was never meant to do and it falls short, but that is to be expected.

It is a legal caliber on deer in my state. The .223 is not.

It also was designed to perform optimally in a short, 16", barrel w/o overly loud noise and distracting flash.

It uses a wide range of bullets and factory fodder from 85 to 130 grs, including some of the high performance type, as MD pointed out.

Ruger makes it in its new AR and mini 14 Ranch Rifle. Ruger also made some in a compact 77. Many --most?-- AR makers now offer it.

The big strike against it is that Remington was the first to bring it out and, no surprise, Big Green cocked it up again. The original issued rifle and caliber design were wrong. The first bolt guns were made to ape full size rifles and were widely shunned by the buying public. Some weaker ARs blew up with high performance TAC rounds due to the orignal case design flaw. The new SPC II (no lnger designated Remington) chamberings took care of that glitch.

Rampant ignorance about the round continues -- largely because none of the major companies chamber -- or advertise-- the SPC II and thus gun mags ignore it.

1B

All things being equal, as far as the rifle/bbl length etc., the 6.8 spc will send an 85gr TSX at the same speed the .223 will send that 62 gr TSX.

Now add in the advantage that the 6.8spc can send a 110gr TSX at nearly the same velocity that the .223 can send a 70gr TSX and the potential uses open up further.

Your question is kinda like asking what a .270 Win can do that a .243Win can't.

Like most military cartidges, this one makes alot of sense for alot of people. That's no guarantee that it will be the next .30-06 or .308 popularity-wise however. Still, I think it's far enough along to say that it's an accepted and popular enough round.

That about hits it right there.

IF they had released it in the ADL and the model 7, in normal and youth versions, and made some very standard, inexpensive corelokt ammo, they would have had a winner.

Although, Rem is NOT in the business of supporting chamberings, they follow the money.

If I go to wally world, I see 22lr, 223, 243, 30-30, 308, 270, 30-06, 7 mag, 300 mag. (sometimes 22-250) in the ammo case.

Of those, I only shoot the 22lr and 223 regularly. BUT the rest of the world, in Arizona at least, can do fine with those, probably 90% of every rifle cartridge shot in AZ is one of those.

Another problem for Rem, was that the case head required them to carry 3 sizes of bolt(head) in the Short Action. Not good for volume business, or for wildcatters, hard to pick up a cheap 700 6.8 action.

Sycamore

The 223 can cling those bullets a might bit faster than your comparison.


Guessing don't get old around this place.

Most people who buy the 6.8 SPC do not buy them because their lives depend on it. Which begs the question: Why do they buy it?

The answer eludes me. There are plenty of other rounds who will do any job better. It must be a matter of preference, which is fine.

The way the round was marketed left a bad taste in my mouth. Clearly, it was aimed at the civilian market, yet posed as an alternative to the 5.56. The AMU at Ft. Benning helped develop the round, at least in the initial phase. The OIC of that unit spoke to its development at a meeting I attended, he had nothing negative or positive to say about it. When asked if it would replace the 5.56, he pointed out that we were in the middle (then) of two wars and to introduce a new rifle would be logistically and realistically unfeasible.

The hysterical gunwriter Lee Hoots, (the disparager of the .270) compounding his record of hyperbolic statements, said the US Government was contributing to the deaths of GIs by NOT adopting this round, thus doing his part to erode confidence in the 5.56. I don't know, maybe Hoots has a military record to bolster this claim, but I don't think he does.

Dissatisfaction in the 5.56 comes almost exclusively from gun writers and mall commandos. If there was a problem with the 5.56 from a military standpoint, it would be all over the media. Like it was in 66.

As for killing grizzley bears, I recall a Savage add that said the .303 Savage completely penetrated a griz, front to back. Hmmmm....Inuits kill polar bears with .243s and (I've heard) with .22 Hornets, but it's not a round I'd choose.

So it's a good round for...well...uh...coyotes? Pigs? So is about any other centerfire cartridge. I don't see a need this cartridge fills.

In an AR15, what are they?
...assuming by "any job," that includes big game hunting.

What this cartridge does is fill a niche in THE AR15 that wasn't covered already prior to its introduction. The cartridge size constraints of the AR15, which the 6.8 was developed around, don't apply to bolt actions. It never was intended for use in bolt actions at all, and there are dozens of better choices in a bolt action. If you're even thinking in terms of bolt actions, the 6.8 really should not enter your thought process in the first place, and Big Green would be foolish to chamber the 700 for it. It was developed for military use to provide more lethality than the 5.56 offers, within the dimensional confines of the AR15/M16. It does that. Despite that fact, it hasn't been adopted by the military for whatever reason, at least not on a large scale.

In civilian use, if one wanted to use an AR15 for hunting deer sized game, prior to the introduction of the 6.8 and other 5.56 alternatives, you had a choice of marginal chamberings in the AR15 or going to the larger, heavier, less standardized, more expensive AR10 platform for .308 based cases. In some states, .22 cal centerfires are illegal for deer hunting. The 6.8 (and the 6.5 Grendel and .264 LBC) allows you to use all AR15 components except bolt head, barrel, and magazine, so you get increased capability with a round that works within the confines of an AR15. Even in going the 6.8 route, you spend less $ and have a greater choice of compatible component parts with less overall weight with the AR15 vs. AR10. That's all the cartridge is really good for, and outside of that, there are much better choices. Every choice we make in rifles involves one tradeoff or another; this is no different. Within that framework, however, it makes a lot of sense for someone who enjoys shooting an AR and wants more power than .223 offers.

It will never achieve widespread popularity in the civilian market unless the military decides to adopt it in a large % of M16s. But, so what? It's at least a commercially available round at present, and many of us shoot wildcat cartridges that involve resizing some other parent brass to create, and somehow that isn't viewed as an obstacle. As long as brass is readily available and one handloads, that's no big deal.

You exactly highlight its weaknesses. The 30-06 was developed for the 03 Springfield, yet it has increased its capabilities in many other guns. This is true with virtually every round EXCEPT the 6.8, in fact. The only other I can think of is that FN round for their automatic rifle.

Limit a round to just one platform and it's not going to work for most people. Few people will buy an AR for hunting deer, although the .223 is legal in my state and a whole lot of folks use it, not many use the AR to hunt deer.

Not true anymore. ARs are wildly popular for hunting now, and 6.8 is a pretty popular AR chambering these days, as evidenced by the fact that Rock River, Stag Arms, and other AR manufacturers offer it as a standard chambering option. At last year's SHOT show it was clearly evident that ARs and AR-related accessories have been dominating the shooting industry for the past few years. There's nothing rare or exotic about 6.8 SPC. I can buy factory ammo for it at nearly every gun store in my area, plus Bass Pro and Cabelas.

When one discusses 6.8 SPC the assumption is that we're talking ARs, since that is pretty well where use of this cartridge is limited to. In that realm, it is a very useful, practical cartridge. Bolt actions will forever be my preferred hunting rifle platform, but ARs are fun to play with and they have their usefulness. As rampant as feral hogs are where I live, a 6.8 chambered AR makes a lot of sense. They are out of control pest animals with no bag limits, no season, and no limitations on time of day or means to kill them. The AR gives me much faster follow-up and higher magazine capacity than any bolt gun, so when hogs show up in large groups, I can take more of them before they leave.

As a deer hunting rifle, a 6.8 SPC AR has very mild recoil. That, combined with the adjustable stock on mine means that I can easily adjust the LOP to fit my 13 year old daughter so she can use it while hunting with me. I can't do with any of my traditionally stocked rifles without buying a "youth" stock or cutting off one of my existing stocks. The adjustable buttstock also allows me to move the stock down to its shortest length, making it more compact and take up less room in cases.

As a nighttime predator & hog hunting rifle, the extra picatinny rails on the AR are handy to mount lights to enable me to light up the target and see through my scope in total darkness. It is legal to hunt predators and hogs at night where I live because they are considered non-game species.

That's not true either. There's a whole slew of cartridges developed specifically for the AR besides 6.8 SPC... 6.5 Grendel, .264 LBC, .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, and probably many others I'm not thinking about. They were developed to provide additional capabilities while still working within the physical size limitations of the AR15 operating envelope. All of these rounds can obviously be used in other action types, but there's really no point because you'd be giving up performance in other actions free of the AR's cartridge size constraints, and there are much better rounds to choose from. Yes, the .30-06 was originally developed for the 03 Springfield, but it cannot be used in all other action types because of its length; the AR family being a good example. Just as pistols involve making concessions in cartridge OAL, case capacity, and performance vs. rifle cartridges, choosing any firearm class always involves one compromise or another. Just as .40 S&W is a pistol cartridge, 6.8 SPC is an AR cartridge, and within their intended use and limitations, both work well.

None of the above named cartridges could be called a commercial success, could they. The "SPC" does stand for something. I know why it was developed, to complement the AR platform. Your comparison reminds one of the .35 Whelen or the .270, cartridges developed from the parent round not rounds developed for the 03 rifle itself. Don't know what the 6.8 will spawn.

Given that the AR platform is over 50 years old and is, itself, getting a long in the tooth, I would think all that development could go to a platform a little more forward-looking.

The 6.8SPC didnt last long in a bolt action, but I think
in an AR it will be around for awhile.

It never was intended for bolt actions. I think Remington chambered it for a short time just for kicks, but something like .260 or 7-08 makes infinitely more sense in a bolt gun.

In the AR, most of those have had some degree of commercial success. The 6.8 has been more successful than all but the .223. It has only been commercialized since 2004. "SPC" stands for "special purpose cartridge." It was developed specifically for the M16 (for use by the US Army Special Forces) from the .30 Rem case, not a modification of another existing AR case. The whole reason for its development is because the Army wanted something that provided more lethality than the 5.56 that would still work in the existing M16, while still providing very close to the same magazine capacity and not much more ammo storage space. It has a larger bolt head diameter than .223 -- .422 vs. .378. It is an entirely new cartridge, not spawned from the 5.56 case or from anything else previously used in ARs.

You obviously haven't kept up with the AR world. Despite the basic age of the design, Eugene Stoner's invention is showing no signs of slowing down. If anything, it's more popular now than it's ever been in its history. Witness companies like Remington, Ruger, and S&W getting into the AR game just in the past 5 years. The AR is here to stay well into the foreseeable future. ARs are arguably the hottest selling long guns in the firearms industry right now. It's so modular, with more aftermarket parts than any other single firearm design. There is an entire thriving industry on aftermarket parts for the AR alone. The 1911 and 10/22 are the only firearms that come close to this, and even they are in distant 2nd and 3rd place behind the AR.

If a manufacturer is developing a new cartridge for a military style semi-auto, it makes no sense to develop them for any other platform because the AR outsells everything else. It's simple, easy to work on, and easy to customize. It's gas impingement design enables it to have a higher degree of accuracy than some other semi-auto designs because there's no moving mass of parts (op rod, gas piston, etc.) surrounding the barrel during firing to impart vibrations to the barrel. It's easy to rebarrel and there are tons of match grade barrels for it. It's popular in High Power competition.

You're making the mistake trying to draw correlation between 6.8 SPC and typical bolt action rounds and in the process not giving it credit for doing what it does well. Just as .45 ACP or .40 S&W aren't well suited to bolt actions but are great defensive pistol rounds, 6.8 SPC is good for its intended purpose -- expanding the usefulness of the AR15. It is a great AR round, but AR round it is and will forever be.

and the answer is 99% nothing more! What would you shoot with a 6.8SPC that you would not shoot with a .223? Why nothing more! Deer, hogs, black bear, aardvarks, armadillos, fiddler crabs, clams, mussels ...

Nothing. Postulate as you may want to postulate and be happy with what you have, despite 300ACC, 6.8SPC, and etc. its another .223 for me, I will not emulate swampfool in which I say with the authority and certainty that the good Lord reserves for nincompoops that "this" cartridge is not good, and that one "sucks" simply that logic steers me in a certain direction over another and my needs may be different than yours!

Your claim wasn't that it could kill any animal a 6.8spc could, you claim was:

"what can the 6.8SPC do that a .223 with a 62 grain TSX cannot do"

Obviously any cartridge within a certain caliber/power range is capable of killing the same animals, but that doesn't mean that a .243Win can do everything that a .270Win can do or that a .221 Fireball can do everything a .243Win can do.

By you logic we should all hunt whitetail and lesser animals with a .221 Fireball since it is capable of such. Why go with a harder hitting cartridge?

No, the .223Rem can't do everything the 6.8spc can do. There are certainly angles and distances that a conscientious hunter might take with a 6.8spc on a deer or hog that he might not take with a .223Rem. And if the target is a human, there are types of cover at distance that a 6.8spc will punch through that a .223Rem may not, that is after all WHY it was developed.

So in the end, both will kill a 300lb hog, but if there were 50 300lb hogs in a field 300 yards off and we both got paid per head that we dropped in that field without tracking, you would be foolish to choose the .223Rem over the 6.8SPC.

That is what it WILL do better.

RifleDude has it figured out and is right on. The 6.8 gives more oomph and killing power in the AR15 platform and has a more practical and sensible reason for being than many of the scores of cartridges available in bolt rifles. It is small enough for predators but big enough for deer. I am getting a 6.5 version because I like that bore size. The AR platform in general has been and is enjoying a remarkable surge of interest-- long in the tooth or not. And that interest is well deserved. PH

The place I do most of my hunting is infested with feral hogs. Over the past 5 years, I've killed well over 150 of them. Again, where I live, hogs are pests, not considered game animals and you can kill as many as you wish, by any means you wish, anytime you wish.

I've killed them with numerous cartridges ranging from .22LR to .300 Win Mag, depending on what I happened to have with me when I happened to encounter some hogs (often when I wasn't actually hunting them). What I've discovered is that a large hog (over 300 lbs) is a very tough animal, much tougher than any deer. Some of the longest blood trails I've followed had big hogs at the end of them. I would liken them to elk in terms of toughness.

Although I've never killed them with the .224 62 or 70 TSX, my buddies and I have killed quite a few (over 30) with the .223 with various 55 gr bullets, and the results have been pretty underwhelming on hogs weighing over 200 lbs. Yes, it will kill them. For that matter, so will a .22LR... eventually. If you shoot them in the brain, it will kill them instantly. Shoulder shots are a different matter altogether. We've had many hogs run off and never found after a hit in the vitals with .223s. Although I haven't killed as many hogs with the 6.8, the terminal effects have been night and day different than the .223, with better penetration and larger wound channels. Bullets that create larger wound channels and still penetrate sufficiently kill faster. Maybe the TSX would have evened the comparison more, but the fact is, the 6.8 hits harder and penetrates better, given bullets of equal construction.

Newton's 2nd and 3rd laws of motion dictates that greater mass at a given acceleration produces greater force, and it requires more resistance to stop the motion of an object with greater mass... ergo, greater penetration. This assumes bullets of equal construction. Larger frontal diameter creates more drag and reduces penetration, but greater bullet mass allows a bullet to expand wider and still penetrate as well or better than a lighter bullet with less frontal diameter.

Since .22 centerfires are illegal to hunt big game with in many states, the .223 isn't even a consideration in some parts of the country.

If someone wishes to hunt big game with an AR15 platform, the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel will help the hunter meet legal requirements. When hunting elk or moose in Colorado, a bullet must have a minimum caliber of 6mm, a minimum energy of 1,000 foot-pounds at 100 yards and weigh at least 85 grains. 223-caliber ammunition is not permitted for big game hunting.

For military use, there is a tradeoff. While the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel have advantages in energy, these new cartridges have larger diameters, are heavier and fewer rounds can be carried in the same volume magazine or ammo box. More fire discipline may be required when carrying fewer rounds. Unless the newer cartridges provide a clear advantage, it is likely that 5.56x45mm will remain the NATO standard.

Given that a lot of guys have backed off of more powerful cartridges to stuff like the .257 BOB or 260 Rem, the 6.8 should be the bee's knees for Whitetails unless you are shooting over a soybean field or some such. I didn't get to hunt much during our short season this year, but I alternated my 6.8 with my .257 ROY. Totally different cartridges, but whatever is fun to tote. Wish I'd have even seen a deer on the four or five little hour jaunts that I got to take. Spent some time with my kids in the outdoors though. That makes me think the 6.8 is all right.

I have the option right now to buy either a Noveske 6.8 upper, a Noveske 300ACC Blackout upper, or a Noveske 5.56 Mod 0 chambered upper. After serious consideration of all of these posts many of them reactionary in nature as I made the bold attempt to state what was obvious to me I will just do what I plan to do! Which is have an upper that shoots inexpensive military surplus ammunition that can be purchased in large quantities for little money, have an upper that was designed for the cartridge that I intend to use, have an upper and barrel that does not require a special separate bolt and magazine, have an upper with a cartridge I already reload for, have an upper that will shoot a 62 grain or 70 grain TSX through anything I will point it at. I will avoid buying an upper that uses a Special Purpose Cartridge that has never really gained much ground in popularity and for very good reasons. There is only so much you can do with cartridges this size and the 6.8SPC is just not that much more. Finally I will not shoot pigs with varmint bullets, thanks for that tip.

we are back to how many angels are dancing on the head of my favorite cartridge.

There's knowing and there's guessing. You've shown yourself to be strong on the latter.

Leave the knowing to those of us that actually kill shyt with the 6.8 AND .223 on a regular basis.

How did the 556/223 get to be such a deer slayer all of a sudden? Here in Kayansizzz you ain't supposed to use something that small. Ostensibly, there is some real-world backing for the reasoning of the F&G. Of course, I don't want to go too far down that road. I mean, seein's how it is so hard for them to just locate a stinking mountain lion. I know a lot of folks here like the 223 for Whitetails, but I don't see the point. Unless that's all you have or all you have in a certain platform you want to use, I don't really get it.

At the risk of touting guesswork, the 6.8 and its ballistics look really sweet for Whitetails as long as the distance ain't too much.

I am choosing the most logical cartridge. No one said the .223 was the most powerful only that the power range between the two does not justify to me the added expense and difference of the 6.8SPC. How much powder can you cram into the small cases anyway? Buy what you want I will shoot what I want in the end what you do with your 6.8SPC will be no different than what I do with a .223. I have owned a bolt .222 Remington and 8 .223's in my lifetime of shooting it at paper and animals. I admit I probably do not have your vast experience with the cartridges. An intellectual decision based on experience and the factors I have already listed is my decision, its probably many other peoples decision.

My friends neighbors wife shoots doe's out of her garden with a .22 Hornet, any center fire .22 is legal in GA.

Jimmy,
I don't see that any of this is worth getting worked up over. I say shoot what you like. Sometimes a chambering choice is based on little more than you don't already have a rifle so chambered. That's justification enough for me.

You asked me what the 6.8 does better than the .223 and I told you what I think based on owning and shooting both. You're free to accept or discard what I've said, but I spoke honestly and without any antagonism, so I hope you will return the favor even if you disagree with me. But, understand that what I've told you is not based on what I've read; it's based on my first hand experience. I've enjoyed our conversations on scopes and I would like to continue with that level of civility.

You can do a lot of the same things with .223 as you can with 6.8. But to say the .223 will do everything just as well as the 6.8 is just not true, as it depends totally on what you're doing. For larger animals, the 6.8 will be more immediately lethal. Bullets that create larger wound channels kill faster. Heavier bullets that stay together will penetrate better. The 6.8 is not just a nominal step up in power level from .223; it's a pretty significant difference. 6.8 shoots 100 gr bullets at the same velocity that .223 shoots 75 gr bullets. Besides using significantly heavier bullets, the 6.8 case has 15% greater volume than .223 (36 vs. 31 gr water). With a high BC bullet, the .223 starts to narrow the gap at longer range, but the 6.8 is a moderate range cartridge, and does its job well within those limitations.

Whether the difference in cost to get that is worth it to you is always up to the individual. However, the cost difference to build one vs. the other is greatly overstated. I didn't buy a complete upper or lower; I built my AR entirely from parts I selected. The honest to goodness difference in cost to build my 6.8 vs. a .223 using the same brand components... comparing apples to apples... was a whopping $25 more for the 6.8! I bought the bolt head from Stag Arms. Their 6.8 head costs $60.00 vs. $45.00 for the .223. Their .223 magazines cost $20.00 vs. $30.00 for 6.8 magazines. I bought my barrel from White Oak Armory. There was no difference in the cost of the barrel for either, depending on which barrel profile you want. All other parts are the same, whether you go with .223 or 6.8. If you plan to buy a complete upper, Rock River's and Stag's 6.8 uppers are no more expensive than their .223 uppers. I've seen the same hold true with other uppers as well. At best, there isn't a huge difference in price, though that undoubtedly varies depending on whose upper you buy and how you have it spec'ed out.

Yes, ammo is more expensive for 6.8 than .223, as you can get cheap mil surp brass for the latter, but the price difference wasn't that big a deal for me. Cost to load 6.8 is not that much more expensive than .223 after you have a good supply of brass. In factory ammo, 6.8 is really not that expensive, maybe $5/ box more than equivalent .223. Shooting the 6.8 is quite a bit less expensive than shooting my 6PPC, all of my big 7's and .30's, and most everything I have except rimfires and .223's. But the fact is, to say a 6.8 cost way more to build is a fallacy, and although it does cost a bit more to shoot, not by a huge margin, comparing bullets of the same pedigree.

I freely admit I haven't stoked the .223 with 62 TSX or any "heavy" bullet and gone after big game with it. The reason I haven't is because I have too many other rifles that are way better suited to big game to press the .223 into that role, so there has never been a need. My .223's are used for zapping prairie dogs, and in that role, they are sublime. If .22 centerfires were all a shooter could ever need for big game then why would anyone shoot anything with more horsepower and pay more in ammo cost and recoil?

Ordered a couple more C-Products 6.8spc magazines two nights ago. Man those things are expensive at $11.99. laughing...

Sounds like we have the same barrel from WOA if you went 18", Rifledude. And yeah, there is zero difference in cost for uppers and rifles between 5.56 and 6.8spc with the major manufacturers.

One thing to keep in mind on this:



In order to seat those higher BC (heavier weight) .223 bullets for an AR, you start eating into case capacity because you're OAL is limited to the magazine.

There is simply no .223 bullet appropriate for Deer or hogs that will match the ballistics of the 6.8spc 100-110 TSX or Accubonds. The .223 bullets have a lower BC and considerably less powder capacity.

To top off the cost portion of the entire thing SSA is going to be producing a plinking round very soon that will have the retail price point of $12-$14 per box.

I see the 5.56 remaining the NATO standard, but think the AR/M 16s days are numbered.

I don't think the .223 will do anything the 6.8 will do, but I also don't think the 6.8 will do anything the 5.56 will do. They're two different cartridges. In a Varmint configuration, the AR 5.56/223 is capable of whacking p-dogs out to long ranges with little recoil. I don't think the 6.8 will do that. Also, while the 6.8 is a good deer cartridge, (if the range isn't too great) so is the .223 (if the deer isn't too large.)

Were I going to buy an AR type rifle, which I won't since I've had one since 1972, I'd without hesitation get a .223. If you only have one, that's the rifle to get. If you already have a /223, maybe a 6.8 for reasons still unclear to me.

Yep, I have the same 18" middie barrel.

And, you're right about using heavier .223 bullets in ARs. You have to seat them deeper to function in the magazines.

rifledude you are right my apologies. What do you know about those quick change barrel nuts? For the same scope, same upper 2 barrels with separate bolts and buffers?

Yes, the 5.56 will undoubtedly remain the standard NATO round for the simple reason that there are too many rifles already so chambered to make such a wholesale change and you can carry more 5.56 ammo at a given weight and space requirement. The 6.8 was never meant to completely replace 5.56, but to add a better penetrating option for Special Forces use.

The M16's days may be eventually numbered in military use, but the AR's days is in no way numbered in civilian use. Even then, I highly doubt the M16 is going anywhere in military & LE use anytime soon either. If you think that's the case, you simply haven't been paying attention. There are more AR manufacturers today than ever in the platform's history. Remington offers no fewer than 8 different models of their R15 and R25 rifles, and Ruger offers 7 variations of its R556 rifle, including 2 chambered in <SHOCK!> 6.8 SPC! Ruger even offers a 10/22 conversion with the same look and ergonomics of an AR. S&W added an AR to its M&P series. All of this has transpired just in the past 5 years or so. Why would they do something so stupid if the AR isn't selling like crazy? Are you aware of the staggering number of manufacturers getting into the AR and AR component parts business, seemingly on a weekly basis?. There are more aftermarket parts available for ARs than any other 5 firearm platforms combined. It isn't even close, in fact. If the ARs days are truly numbered, the overwhelming evidence in the industry certainly doesn't bear this out.

Yes, .223 is a much better choice for a varmints just as 6.8 is a much better choice for big game animals. But if the reasons for why someone would go the 6.8 route is "still unclear to (you)" at this point, then you either haven't paid much attention to this discussion, or you have firm preconceived notions that prevent you from considering alternatives.

I live in a state where .22 centerfires are legal for deer. But in many states, they're illegal. That simple fact alone is reason enough to choose 6.8 over .223 if you happen to live in one of those states.

I have taken only one coyote with the 6.8 SPC and I believe it shines brightest in the AR-15 Platform. I really like this little cartridge and believe it will become very popular as a light kicking medium game round.

I've seen discussions about it on the net, but have never given it a try or know anyone personally who has. Looks like an interesting idea. You'd need to get some headspace gauges to go with it to verify headspace every time you change barrels. Or, at least I'd think you would.

I guess it would all depend on how often you switch between calibers as to whether it's a good option or not. It would certainly save a lot of $ if it works well and doesn't sacrifice any rigidity.

Are you thinking about trying it out? If so, I'd like to hear your impressions of the system.

Now, let's have a beer, shall we?!!!

OK a beer it is.

This one does not mention headspace.

http://www.m-aparts.com/productsDetail.asp?id=1415

Nice! The outer nut stays put, and only the inner nut is removed. Quick and easy. I'm actually surprised it has taken this long for someone to come up with such a simple idea!

Don't know what I was thinking on the headspace gauge thing. Once headspace is verified on an AR barrel, it seats against the barrel extension flange the same every time b/c, unlike on a bolt action, the threaded portion is on the receiver extension and barrel nut, not on the barrel extension.

So you think the chief reason for bying an AR in 6.8 is for deer hunting?

I personally don't use my 6.8 for deer hunting. That's not a statement on it's potential effectiveness, merely I have 7-08's, 6.5 Swedes .270's and .280's for that job.

My 6.8SPC is my dedicated hog and coyote rifle and is set up for that purpose. The 6.8spc is in my opinion, about as good as it gets for hogs. A little extra for those big boys than a .223 and yet in the AR, the recoil is practically non existant and you can tear up a group in short order.

I have used my 6.8 on deer just to see how it would do. Worked great on two big does at 100 yards using 110 TSX SSA loads. But, I still prefer my .308 and 7STW.

The chief reason for me was fun. I hunt mainly with bolt actions and always will; the AR was just a fun diversion. Because of the Magpul CTR adjustable buttstock I chose, along with the mild recoil, my daughter can use it for deer hunting. It's an excellent mild recoil deer hunting round with about the same capability up to medium distances as .257 Roberts.

But, I mainly use it for hog hunting. It works very well for that. It's just powerful enough to be quite effective on hogs without having so much muzzle rise that I can't get rapid follow-up shots on other hogs in a group.

The 6.8 is no joke and allows the AR-15 platform to put its best foot forward at normal hunting ranges

Checkout this thread the opening poster took a Musk Ox with 1 shot and an exit and his son took an eith foot Grizzly with 1 shot and an exit

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7621043/m/4191033741

interesting! The 6.8 looks very interesting. I did look at some ballistics and the 77 Sierra Match King from a .223 started at 2700 FPS, the 85 grain TSX from the 6.8SPC started at 2800 FPS, and the 130 grain TTSX from a 300 ACC blackout started at 2100 FPS all have about 850 foot pounds of energy at 200 yards, funny the 223 77 grain matchking based on the program that I ran had more energy from 300 out to 500 yards.

The SSA 110 grain 6.8 cartridges which I assume are the SPCII variety launch this bullet at 2650 which is a big difference with 1150 Ft/pounds at 200 yards.

Silver State sells the 6.8spc 85gr TSX starting at 2920fps to the general public and also sells an LE version at 3000fps. Plug that into your program and see how it compares.

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo_85gr_Barnes_TSX.aspx

Here is a good article on the history and capabilities of the 6.8 SPC for those still asking "why bother?"

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-...velopment-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/?p=1

Most everything pertaining to 6.8 SPC is Spec II these days. If you get a barrel, make absolute certain it has a Spec II chamber and 11 twist, both of which allow higher pressures. 11 twist has shown to provide the best accuracy for the typical range of bullet weights appropriate for AR magazines -- 85 - 110 gr. I'd be surprised if anyone is currently offering 6.8 AR barrels in any other config than SPCII / 11 twist.

Yep, but remember both could have been killed with a 223 too...

Nice to have a 6.8, and you know I have one necked to 6mm.... but there isn't enough of an advantage to be realistic at normal ranges IMHO. IE if stepping up I"d rather make a noticeable move than an almost noticable move.
Just my take on things.

SSA differentiates between Spec II chambers and Spec I chambers with the "tactical" reference. If the ammo is listed as tactical it is for a Spec II chamber gun......

And don't be surprised because there are companies that still offer a the 6.8 with a Spec I chamber because the bean counters have determined that the Spec I chambers are "SAAMI", Ruger being one such company.

I read somewhere that the 6.5 Grendel was a better round than the 6.8 Spec. The tests ran by this gunwriter said it had more downrange energy retention and matched the .308 at around 300 yards. I think the 6.5 Grendel has a larger case diameter than the 6.8. It is like the Winchester short mags, short and fat, but can only single stack in an AR size magazine. It also requires a new bolt and upper.

I think this is it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_mm_Grendel

If you reload, this may be a better route than the 6.8 Spec.

If you like more expensive everything (uppers, brass, ammo, magazines) since it's a proprietary round and all the major AR manufacturers have avoided it like the plague. Well, Sabre makes it, but they're only semi major.

It does have better 300+ yard ballistics since it can seat higher BC bullets, but inside 300 yards it has no advantage. Like the .300 Whisper it's likely to die eventually because Alexander held the licensing rights too tight.

You also have reduced mag capacity with the Grendel since it's based off the fatter PPC case. It's a fine round in its own right, but it does nothing the 6.8 SPC won't do within normal hunting & shooting ranges you'd use an AR for.

6.8 has achieved pretty good commercial success given its recent introduction, so it's much better supported and much cheaper to shoot.

Mag capacity has no impact on a hunting rifle, since 5 rounds is the maximum allowed just about everywhere. Except for hogs and such in some states. Still, a few rounds less in a magazine can't have much practical influence.

Since you got a 6.8 for fun, is it more fun than a .223? If so, how so?

I get the impression from reading these posts that 6.8 fans have bought a bad mule and want to increase the validity of their mules by influencing others to buy the same mule.

yes interesting, the 85 TSX started at 2950 is 940 Ft/pounds at 200 vs 850 or so from the 77 SMK in .223, but at 300 they are about the same and at 500 the .223 77 SMK actually is better at 442 Ft pounds and 1600 FPS vs 360 and 1382 for the 85TSX.

Just noticed that SSA also sells the 77 grain SMK out of a 16 inch barrel they claim 2750, so maybe 2780 out of an 18 inch I don't know?

Laughing....

I don't get that impression from anyone who has said they have a 6.8spc in this thread.

My first 6.8spc was a Rock River 16" 1/10 twist. I hated the 6.8spc so much, I sold it and paid $250 more for a custom built 18" 6.8spc 1/11 twist.

I'd sell one of my .223 AR uppers before I sold my 6.8spc.

I haven't really read this whole thing so forgive me if I missed this but...

What barrel length does SSA use to get 2920fps cause that's faster than most peoples chronographs say at least for 16-18" barrels.

My 18" 223 barrel will get 2800 fps with the 77gr SMK but it's too much ressure for my 17" Krieger with it's match chamber so I load them at 2700 fps. MK262 ammo does a bit over this.

The only 6.8 I have been around belongs to a buddy of mine and he got bored pretty quick with it while working on loads.

The question was asked "what made the 223 such a killer?" simply put, better bullets.

What killed the 6.8 as a military role? Simply put, better bullets namely MK262 and M955AP.

The 6.8SPC is a great round, when necked down to 6MM...

What velocity, not claims are ya'll getting with the 110's and heavier bullets?

The velocities for the round in questions were shot through a POF 18" and were also duplicated with a Noveski 18" and a Stag 20" barrel.

I can also assure you that all the velocities that SSA has posted were shot through barrels that are withing the 16-20" range, on a AR that is readily available to the public, and are the actual velocities that were observed.

I agree I like the 6.8 in the AR platform for hunting a lot more than I do in 5.56/223. The 6.8 hits with enough more authority as to certainly be quite noticeable

It's alwasy amazing how any question about any cartridge on the Campfire always ends up in: "You're nuts. The XYZ will do everything the ABC will, so there's no reason for the XYZ."

Any new or different cartridge is automatically put down because, well, it's new and different. Generally the attitude is that we should be limited to cartridges introduced before 1980, or 1950, or 1925, or.... Well, I have never been able to figure the cut-off date, though we probably could come up with an approximate answer by finding out the poster's birth year and adding 25-30 years.

The 85gr 6.8spc round is small for caliber though and not the best choice for longer distances IMO, because of the lower BC.

You're also comparing a hunting bullet (TSX) to a match/varmint bullet (OTM). Far better to compare apples to apples. 70gr TSX in .223 versus the 85gr or 110gr TSX in the 6.8spc.

If you want to compare the .223 77gr OTM, then perhaps the 110gr Accubond is a better comparison since both have similar BC's.

As you can see below, the best energy at 400 yards from the two .223 bullets you selected was 594ftlbs.

The 6.8spc 110gr Accubond was 707ftlbs and is a far better hog/deer round than the think skinned hollow point OTM.

Comparing apples to apples, the 6.8spc 110gr TSX beats the .223 70gr TSX 623ftlbs to 461ftlbs @ 400 yards.

100 yard zero, 400 yard target:

.223 77gr OTM @ 400 yards. 1864fps; 594ftlbs; 33.6" drop.

.223 70gr TSX @ 400 yards. 1723fps; 461ftlbs; 36.2" drop.


6.8spc 110gr Accubond @ 400 yards 1702fps; 707ftlbs; 40.5" drop.

6.8spc 100gr Accubond @ 400 yards 1709fps; 649ftlbs; 37.4" drop.

6.8spc 85gr TSX @ 400 yards 1608fps; 488ftlbs; 35.8" drop.

6.8spc 110gr TSX @ 400 yards 1597fps; 623ftlbs; 43.0" drop.

Now lets compare apples to apples at a more conventional hunting distance.

@200 yards:

.223 70gr TSX @ 200 yards. 2202fps; 753ftlbs

6.8spc 110gr TSX @ 200 yards 2029fps; 1016ftlbs

That's a 35% increase in energy in the 6.8spc over the .223 in about as apples to apples a comparison as we can get.

I agree, and just don't understand why all cartridge discussions new or old have to be about what other cartridges do better. If the only criteria for owning a gun is that it MUST do everything better than all other cartridges then we wouldn't own any guns and there sure as hell would never be a new cartridge introduced. That and by the same logic if a new cartridge came out that was better than something else production of the old cartridge would have to stop immediately.

The 2920fps 85gr TSX was achieved with a 16" 1/10 twist bbl. SSA sells a lot of LE ammo and they have spec sheets on most of their ammo right on their site.

If you do some research, you would find these velocities aren't remotely out of the ordinary. Hell, Hodgdon shows 2929fps, 2970fps and 3012fps using larger 90gr bullets and we all know Hodgdon isn't about to publish hot loads. In fact those 3 loads are well below the SAAMI max.

Foxbat is most likely right on the barrel length the testing was done a while back and I may be getting the barrel lengths mixed up and either the POF or the Noveski has a 16" barrel..... regardless they are actual velocities that were observed.

Heavywalker, here is the spec sheet on the 85gr LE load (which is faster than the commercial load I quoted) along with the ballistic gelatin image from the test.

http://www.ssarmory.com/images/SSA6.8SPC_85gr_BarnesTSX.pdf

Like I said that is right, I believe what they did is post all velocities out of 16" barrels even though the rounds were tested in 16, 18, and 20" barrels. When we did the load development the loads were tested in a ton of AR's and we just picked the POF, Noveski and the Stag to do the velocities with. I was just not certain about barrel lengths on the guns. Once we gave the data over to Art and Jeff I did not know what they did with it but it looks like they took the velocities for the 16" guns. I also have data on 18" and 20" for their loads as well but not sure exactly where it is.

Thinking it might have been the POF because the Noveskes are 1/12's and the Stag's have been 1/11's since they came out. If I am not mistaken. Does that make sense?

Yep makes since I will try and dig up the notes tonight when I get home. But that sounds about right I know that the POF velocities were what they were mainly concerned about.....

"Bad mule?" If that's what you've gleaned from this discussion then you either haven't paid close attention to what has been said, or you refuse to consider that your preconceived notions of something you've never tried may, in fact, be incorrect. If you don't like the idea of the 6.8 SPC, then I would strongly advise you not buy one. But, I would also suggest that if you're going to engage in a discussion about something you know nothing about, that you listen to those who do with an open mind. Otherwise, you're not adding anything of value to the discussion and not helping anyone.

I'm not trying to influence anyone to do anything they don't want to do. But, if folks ask questions about something I have first hand experience with, I'm going to try to provide answers as honestly as I can.

You are totally misconstruing my "for fun" comment. All of the guns, and for that matter, all of the gear I buy for my hobbies are "for fun." That's all the justification I need to buy anything I like. Isn't that why we do any of this stuff? If I'm not having fun, I need to find other hobbies. What I meant by that in this context is I bought an AR for fun, not for any real "need" that wasn't already covered by another rifle. I was never into ARs in the past, but when I started shooting some of my friends ARs, I got hooked. I don't need any more guns. I can get by with a .30-06 and a .22LR for all the hunting and shooting I do. But that wouldn't be any fun. I chose 6.8 over .223 in my AR because the 6.8 will do the thing I wanted an AR to do -- hog hunting -- better than .223 will. It provides a very nice compromise between effective terminal performance, recoil level, and mag capacity... absolutely perfect for the hog killin' role I indended it to fill. I explained this in great detail several times.

Your mag capacity assertion is absurd. First, there are no magazine capacity laws for big game hunting in my state, and the same is true for many states. Second, feral hogs aren't considered game animals in most states, so even if there were mag capacity issues, it wouldn't apply to hog hunting. Third, I don't use the AR just for hunting, and I suspect that's true with most AR owners. As with any other new guns I buy, it's something different that I enjoy shooting because I enjoy variety. It's fun to shoot, period. Fourth, although magazine capacity isn't the only reason for selecting one round vs. another, it's one of many considerations. If magazine capacity wasn't a consideration and nobody was allowed to use them, suppliers would only sell 5 or 10 round mags and nothing else. One of the main attractions of an AR in the first place is that it allows high cap magazines.

Amen!!!

Using that logic, there's no purpose for most cartridges under the sun. We could all just own a 12 ga. shotgun, a .22LR, a .30-06, and a .416 Rigby and be done with it, and there'd be no need to buy any more guns.

nope the .416 rigby kills elephants better than the 30-06 therefore there is no reason for the 30-06.

But a .17HMR could do the job on that elephant if you held it up to it's eye and caught the right brain angle. So technically, the .416 Rigby does nothing the .17HMR can't do...

[quote=FoxbatNow lets compare apples to apples at a more conventional hunting distance.

@200 yards:

.223 70gr TSX @ 200 yards. 2202fps; 753ftlbs

6.8spc 110gr TSX @ 200 yards 2029fps; 1016ftlbs

That's a 35% increase in energy in the 6.8spc over the .223 in about as apples to apples a comparison as we can get.

[/quote]

Which is exactly the reason I set up an AR-15 with a 16" barrel in 6.8SPC last year after back surgery for deer hunting at woods ranges. Old school says 2000fps and 1000ft-lbs for deer at impact.

The 6.8 is beginning to look more and more like a modern day .30-30, both because of how well it works and the lack of respect it generates.

'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink' is an old saying that comes to mind here. Or maybe you can show a horse water and he will not drink. No amount of logic or real info will affect someone with a preconcieved notion and biased opinion who hangs on to a notion like a tick on a rhino. No sense in trying after a certain point. TTT

Sorry I found my mistake.

so am I looking right, the 6.8 is basically a 250 savage?

I could really go for that in an Contender carbine.

I would guess bullet B.C. being somewhat different but out to 250 yds or so are the 6.8 and 250 Savage nearly identical?

If so sounds good to me.

TWR, try this:

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

6.8spc 110gr TSX = 110grains; 2550fps; .323BC

I'm getting 2039fps and 1016ftlbs at 200 yards.

Funny you mentioned that. I was thinking the same thing earlier today comparing Hodgdon reload data. They are real similar in some listed loads.

well in any case .277 85 tsx at 2900+ should cover a fair amount of ground as a hunting cartridge.

We cant use AR's to hunt in PA but a 6.8 in a contender may do for PA deer and maybe even Back bear.

I forgot to change the weight of the bullet but got it fixed, numbers are correct.

Au contraire. I'm a fan of the .223 not because of my age, but because it's saved my ass more than once. If the 6.8 had saved me, maybe I'd be an advocate of it. And as I said before, the 6.8 seems a one-trick pony. Deer, coyotes...wait...the .223 can do that. HAS done those. I may be wrong here, but I don't think the 6.8 kills a coyote any deader than a .223.

If I had a few ARs and was looking for something unique, I might get one if the ammo was cheap. Or, I might just paint my AR in a camo pattern for the uniqueness.

I wonder if the matchking would work as well as the Berger's do on WT deer? Most of my shots are under 200 yards? I am going to look into that switch barrel nut but for deer I shoot under 200 its hard to start out with the 6.8 for me.

I'll say this, I've been around alot of AR's in calibers ranging from 17 Rem to 308 Winchester. They all have their positives and some have their negatives as well. The 77gr SMK has negated the need for anything other than 223 in an AR.

Certainly not saying the 6.8 isn't better, needed or wanted, it just don't kill anything any deader than I need it killed.

Well, it can't spawn a whole slew of lightweight bullets in .277 caliber, which can now be put to good use in a 270 Winny!

Thank goodness we got some light bullets. Long live the SPC!

No, it won't kill a coyote any deader than a .223, but nobody said otherwise, and the discussion on 6.8 usefulness has centered around deer, hogs, and larger stuff. As has been stated multiple times and you keep ignoring, it has more lethal terminal performance on larger animals. That is not theory; it is fact. Using your same generalization, .17 Mach 2 will technically kill all the animals mentioned just as dead (eventually), but it isn't an ideal or smart choice on anything larger than small varmints. .22LR has killed tons of deer, but that doesn't mean it's a good deer round. If you compare the performance numbers of .223 and 6.8 with even an inkling of objectivity, you'll quickly see that the latter offers performance that the former cannot duplicate. That either will kill some of the same animals is beside the point.'

And again, the simple fact the .223 or any other .22 centerfire is ILLEGAL for big game hunting in many states is reason enough to choose something else for deer hunting.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that you probably have more than 1 rifle and that they aren't all chambered in .223. If so, then why not, since the .223 will do everything you need?

I have a question. If you shoot a SSA 110 grain bullet loaded cartridge at 2550 out of a 6.8 SAAMI chamber will it be over pressure?

I looked at both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel and chose the Grendel. The reason is simple enough - the 6.5 Grendel does do something that neither the 6.8 or the 5.56 do very well, perform at long range.

At close range the Grendel has plenty of terminal effect, so the argument that the 6.8 was developed for "close range knockdown power" is moot. From a 20" barrel you can hit right at 2600 FPS with a 120 gr bullet, which I think is about the sweet spot weight for the round. For hunting a 100 gr mono bullet is absolutely not without interest either though. At the mild velocities of the Grendel the 120 gr Ballistic Tip makes for some inexpensive hunting ammo.

With a good 120 gr bullet, consistent 800+ yard accuracy is possible from a 20" tube. I don't think anyone will argue that the bullet selection at 6.5 mm is lacking. That was the main reason 6.5 mm was chosen for the round. Note: I'm not advocating the Grendel as a long range deer round, 400 yards is probably a good guideline for that - but for humans or coyotes it'll work fine at extended ranges. ;-)

Another plus is Hornady is now loading affordable factory ammo with the 123 gr A-max.

The Grendel isn't perfect. The factory mags still sometimes require tweaking for perfect function, although I heard a new first-tier manufacturer was about to come on the scene. I do think the Grendel is very close to an optimal round for the AR platform in terms of killing power, small to medium game hunting, and long range capability.

Yep, and I've never heard anyone claim that a 250 Savage wasn't a step up from a .223

jimmyp,

I don't knpw the numbers and the recommended pressures vary from brand to brand. The SAAMI standard -- offically the 6.8SPC Remington -- will blow up some of the weaker ARs IF TAC loads are used. The newer 6.8 SPC II -- same case body dimensions, slightly longer leade -- will shoot everything safely with a slight increase in velocity and, some say, accuracy.

1B

the 6.8 is not without interest to me, if you go buy a Ruger Ranch rifle is 6.8SPC to shoot at close range deer, or even at the musk ox can you just buy 110 grain Accubond loads at 2550 FPS from SSA and they will function just fine with no problems?

I like that 110 grain tactical load at 2650 FPS, how will that work in a Ruger Ranch rifle?

I have a ranch rifle in in 6.8 SPC Remington and there is no warning in the Ruger paperwork regarding that round. If any rsik at all was there Ruger's lawyers would have it carved on the barrel!

I do plan to stick with the Hornady's in mine. The max MOA I expect from it is 1.5 so there would be little point in higher performance rounds. Now in my accurized custom Ruger #1...

By the way, I came across a Rem 700 tactical rifle for a good price last week and held my nose long enough to buy it. Hope the bolt handle stays on. (grin)

1B

The 2550 load is the commercial load, it is made for the SAAMI chamber. I would not personally use the 2650 Tac load in an old 6.8 chamber.

most of my deer are shot at 20 yards

Do not use SSA Tactical loads in a Ruger Ranch Rifle. They will be over pressure. Ruger chambers for Spec I and Tac loads are for Spec II chambers. However you can use the commercial loads in Spec I chambers.

I agree it's reason to chose something else for deer hunting. However, where we disagree is you seem to think the 6.8 is the better deer rifle.

And I have more than one rifle, and while 3 are in .223, the remainder are not. The ones above .223 give a lot more versatility than the 6.8 OR the .223. The lesser ones (.22 Hornet, for example) are best choices for quiet rounds that will do the job in situations not mandatory for the .223.

I've never said the .223 will do everything I need, neither that it will do everything a 6.8 will do, I've only said it will do mostly what a 6.8 will do. The difference isn't enough to blow my skirt up. Certainly not enough for me to spend my hard-earned specie for an insignificant difference.

Your position is based sometimes on using a high-capacity weapon for legal deer hunting, an advantge negated because of 5-round mag restrictions in most areas. That's one argument, which you abandon immediately to say the 6.8 AR is used for hunting hogs, where no restrictions apply and where a .223 is just fine.

I will go out on a limb here and suppose you own a 6.8 because you wanted a 6.8, a perfectly valid reason. You are now scrambling for reasons to justify your purchase where no reason is needed. Your fault is claiming that one fun gun, yours, is superior to another fun gun, mine.

Looky here.....


http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

Well, Gene, I believe you've convinced everybody to get rid of their 6.8's, especially after all your stories of hands-on experience.

Seems to me a .223 is a darned marginal choice for hogs. Just my $.02.

On the other hand, I'm planning on doing some hog hunting with my Grendel this spring. :-)

I might even carry it some deer hunting this year. If I do, I'll probably leave the 26-round mags at home, even though they're legal here. ;-)

Ten should be plenty.

Yep them hogs is tuff! This one made it about 40 yards before he ran out of gas. Oh and it was a 50 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. I asked him where he shot it and he said behind the front shoulder with his 223 at 80 yards or so.

I don't think anyone is saying sell your 6.8's but don't expect me to believe how much better you think it is.

And a woman died from a BB gun shot to the heart a couple years ago. Anecdotal stories and $4.00 will buy you a coffee at Starbucks.

I've killed hogs with .223, 6.8spc, .270Win, 30-06 and 7-08 as well as watched them shot with .243win and .44mag. Shot placement is #1 always, no matter what the target and no matter what the cartridge, but I have shot enough hogs over the years to know that some cartridges work better at distance or with a slightly less than optimal shot placement than others.

You want to believe a 77gr matchking is an optimal hog round at 200 yards angling toward you? Be my guest and when he runs off into the palmettos and cypress, YOU can go in after him.

I have no qualms hunting hogs with a .223. My night hunting rig is a .223 with a 2x aimpoint. But I am telling you right now, personal experience dictates that a heavier better constructed bullet works better in certain situations, especially punching through a big one's shield at distance.

110 grains traveling at the same speed as 70 grains, with equally constructed bullets, hits harder, that's just irrefutable physics and personal experience.

Once again, your assumptions couldn't be further from the truth, Gene. I'm not scrambling to justify anything to anyone. I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else to spend money on anything either. I'm simply answering your misguided assumptions, all of which are false. You're the one who chose to enter this discussion without knowing anything about the topic. Yet you're quick to dismiss hand-on experience with same. I assumed by the questions you were asking that you actually wanted to know the answers, but it appears you already have your mind made up. Since you do already have your mind made up, I'm puzzled by why you're so insistent on criticizing something you haven't the slightest clue about. If anything, it's YOU who are doggedly "scrambling to justify" that you already know all the answers.

The 6.8 is a far superior round for dispatching deer, pigs, and any other medium sized game in a quicker, more humane manner than .223. I didn't confine my points to deer hunting, or dismiss the same by focusing on hog hunting either. I'm saying if one is planning to use AN AR for big game hunting, whatever the species, 6.8 is an infinitely better choice than .223. You seem to forget the AR employs this handy little detachable magazine feature that allows you to use a variety of magazines of different capacity. If you happen to be deer hunting with an AR and you happen to live in a state that has a 5 round max law, guess what?... you can switch out the magazine to a 5 rounder with a press of a button. Magical! Then, when you aren't deer hunting, you can go back to a high cap magazine just as easily. Remarkable! So, for the times you aren't deer hunting, magazine capacity concerns are just one factor to consider among many others for selecting a cartrige. I didn't "abandon" your mag capacity argument, because it was a silly argument. The magazine isn't permanently welded to the lower receiver. You can switch out to a 5- round magazine. I do own multiple magazines of different capacity.

I agree if we're talking about bolt actions there are plenty of rounds that offer more versatility than either .223 or 6.8, but since we aren't, that's a moot point. Just as the .454 Casull is a great hunting round for a revolver, yet would be a poor choice for a bolt action rifle, so 6.8 is a great hunting round for an AR15. The merits of any cartridge should always be considered in light of the platform it was designed to be used in. When you select any firearm, you always give up one thing to gain another. It's just the way it is. Having .250 Savage performance in an AR15 is nothing to sneeze at. I was originally planning to get an AR10 clone in .308 or 7-08. But, when I looked into the increased cost, weight, and less component compatibility of the larger AR10 based rifles, in combination with studying all the chamberings available for both AR15 and AR10, the 6.8 simply made the most sense for what I wanted to do. It bridges the gap nicely between .223 and .308, providing the controllability of the .223 with a larger bullet diameter and better penetrating ability. I'm not into wounding and tracking animals. If you have better tools available to you for a given task, why not use them if you don't have to give up anything in return? The 6.8 is neither "proprietary" nor expensive to shoot.

To each his own.

Please don't patronize me, John. My hands on experience is with the 5.56, and I know what it will do. Being an excellent gunwriter does not make you a final authority.

The internet hunting crowd is at it again. Comparing the "on game" killing power of a .223 against a 6.8. What a joke.

Get away from the computer, and get out in the field. Line up on a group of 150#-200#er's angling every direction as they are feeding at 60-100 yards. After the first shot, and they start running straight away, pour the lead to them with your .223 at 100-150 yards, and see how many drop.

Several " I don't own one, but my .223 will do the same thing". Ya, right...You are not always presented with a standing, broadside shot, at 50-80 yards. There is this thing called "real world hunting".

Shoot at 20 200# hogs with your .223, then do the same with a 6.8, in hunting situations (between 50 and 150 yards), then report back. I think you'll have a different opinion.

I'll offer a first hand report--I just got back from TX, and killed 13 adults in two days with a 6.8 (110 AccuBombs). Only 2 were standing broadside. One was killed at 200 yards running, and DRT, after killing 3 before him, out of the same bunch. The other 10 were shot at every distance and shot angle inbetween.

Can you look me in the eye, and seriously tell me your .223 will do the same thing? Proof, not speculation, is what carries weight.

A member of the spray and pray school of hog eliminating (not hunting). I'm sure the 6.8 does an adequate job, but unless you've tried the same with a .223, you're also talking out your hat.

How many hogs have you shot with a 6.8spc?

Shot them DEAD with a .223. Any further proof needed?

P.S. I think you 6.8 guys got bit by a dog and now you're asking others to pet the same dog so you can share the scars.

That flew right over his head....

Never even knew it was there... Dutch.

I"m with Gene on this one. There isn't enough difference there that I"d be bothered by grabbbing either one. Hence if I had a 223 the only reason I'd buy a 6.8 is because I wanted to.

I've shot plenty of pigs with 223 and 77smks to know that a frontal shot at 200 yards wouldn't bother me in the least.

Now if I had a choice between a 223 and say a 308 or such, then I might well choose the 308 for certain issues. But recoil( and I've shot both 223 ARs and 7.63 M1As in competition more rounds than most would dream of) would hinder me on quick follow up shots on moving targets...

My choice on a bunch of moving hogs would be hands down a 223 with 62 tsx or 77/75 bthps. I can literally kill more of them than with the 6.8 before they get away.

And no I don't own an 6.8 but have one necked down to 6mm that I love the little round, but to be honest it sits in the safe more often than not when going for pigs. Plus I havea 50 beowulf that sits in the safe when going for pigs.

If bigger is better, then we don't need to stop at 6.8.....

Of course its fun to argue all the points. Bottom line in the end, bullet choice and shot placement trump them all. To that end I"ve always been able to get off the most rounds with the 223 over my 6/6.8. A full on 6.8 with a 110 would be even less talking about controlled aimed fire.

Why do I pick bigger rounds at times, especially for deer? First if I'm seriuos, I don't want to have to pass up the only chance I get. That means pick a round that gets the job done regardless of distance or angle. That leaves out the 223 at times on deer. Second I need to be able to find my deer. The pigs are a nuisance and while I prefer to salvage everyone I see, I don't have to recover every last one. I'd rather shoot more pigs, than find every last one.

Deer turn into the issue that I would rather never loose a deer ever. That changes choices. And it also changes caliber choices if I"m trophy or meat hunting... meat hunting, while I do it with mags at times, I am just as likely to grab the 223 and realize that I may have to pass up a shot.

Gene,

I don't believe anybody here cares how much experience you have with the .223. This thread started out as a question to people who have had some experience with the 6.8, and you don't. All you've contributed is becoming the main "haven't" voice in yet another lengthy thread between people who have used something and those who haven't.

There are endless threads like this on the Campfire. It's always puzzling exactly why people who've NEVER used whatever the thread is about seem to know so much. Even more puzzling is why they're so insistent on telling us how much they "know" over and over and over again.

People feel that their reason for not using something holds more weight than other peoples experience using that same thing.

It mostly comes down to people being insecure with themselves which makes them feel the constant need to be right on every subject. They constantly want to prove themselves right to justify their choices or beliefs if they can get just one other person to agree with them then in their mind they are right. This allows them to feel more secure about themselves. Obviously the internet is a perfect environment for such behavior.

But I am not a trained psychologist. I just made this schit up, its easy, but hey, someone will probably agree with me.

Arguing with someone like Gene on this subject is like trying to nail jello to a tree....

I hunt with both, 62 TSX in the .223. Speaking from EXPERIENCE WITH***BOTH***the 6.8 is more effective.

Not too hard to understand why, it's stuck up his azz.

The puzzling part isn't.... at least to me its really clear, hogs ain't hard to kill, i've killed many with an MK2 and 22 hps. A 223 serves that purpose and standard deer purpose just fine. Now large deer or trophy deer as I"ve mentioned... different story. But anything 200 pounds and under is gravy.

The otehr point I see, the 6.8 is simply not a large enough step up from the 223 to make it totally different. I agree on that to.

Does the 6.8 work? Oh hell yeah. But for me... once I leave the 223 realm, PERSONALLY... I"m thinking 7.62x39 as the next step up OR one of the 243 or 25 wssm... as a minimum step up.

I know this much, the 6.8/necked to 6, running 85 tsx doesn't do anything much any better than the 223 running 62 tsx.

BUT I don't mind having a myriad of calibers to play with.

I suspect, just checking GeneL's Ranger tab there.... he may well be tired of folks saying the 223 isn't enough on the battle field either... when he realizes it is fine. Like most of our AMU competitive friends said when shooting for real life... its not that the 223 is lacking, its that the shooters are lacking. To the trained shooters I've talked to, unless you are talking beyond midrange, none have wanted anything more than a 5.56 round for combat use. Though they were very happy when the 77smk was allowed for use.

To add one more comment, reading all this... I'll have to grab a full on 6.8 and toy with it some. No direct need, but if I can see that it flattens animals that much harder from just a bit of ballistics improvement, then I'll agree, but from my wildcat off it, I just don't see that happening.

Isn't this what you do for a living?

Well... in theory, yes. BUT, when we're talking about AR15's, which obviously we are here, there's an inescapable cartridge size limitation we're stuck with in order for the cartridge to function in the platform. The 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and similar cartridges represents a nice balance between providing significantly greater terminal performance than .223 offers while not producing much more recoil, not over-gassing the DGI system, having reasonably good high cap magazine capacity, and still functioning flawlessly in an AR15. In order to meet all those requirements without having to significantly modify the basic components of the rifle, fit within the diameter limitations of the AR15 bolt head and the COAL limitations of the AR15 mag well, you end up with a case dia and length in the ballpark of the PPC or .30 Rem case. Given a case of that size, if you then want reasonably good retained velocity at medium distances along with reasonably good bullet mass, that pretty much dictates you end up with a cartridge very similar to if not exactly like the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel is superior at long range, but 6.8 is less expensive to shoot and just as effective at short to medium range. Take your pick.

Now that's truly a mind boggling comment.....

Kinda like saying a Porsche ain't enough nicer than a Vette to bother with, but you would step up to a Ford Taurus.

Come on, Rost, just admit what's you've admitted a 100 times on the AR board, you are an avowed hater of all things .277.

Read the link I posted earlier. It explains what SOCOM found when it tested various bullet diameters in developing this cartridge. They found through extensive testing that 6.5 - 7mm was the "sweet spot" for maximizing the performance of what that size case was capable of yielding. They found that 6.8mm was the best compromise between the attributes of 6.5 and 7mm bullets.

7.62X39 is a step DOWN. 6.8 outperforms it.

Again, read the article in the link I posted earlier.

I've shot hogs DEAD with a .22LR, a .380 auto, a .40 S&W, a .204 Ruger...

In most cases, they ran off to die a lingering death, but die they did.

What does that prove?

Should I then conclude from that that you don't need a .223 for critters of that size when a .22LR will do?

Technically, no they ain't hard to kill.

They are hard to kill quickly without having them run a long distance, however. If you dispute that, that only tells me you either haven't killed very many hogs or you haven't killed very many large hogs.

I've killed somewhere north of 150 hogs, ranging in size from 5 lb piglets to 380 lb boars. The small ones die pretty quickly. The big ones don't give up the ghost so easily unless you shoot them in the brain. They are extremely tenacious!

I think you hit the nail on the head with "bullet mass". I've shot adult hogs from every different angle, at various distances, and the 6.8/110 AB plain FLATTENS 'em.

I was at the gun store this afternoon looking at rifle scopes, I really like the Leupold 1.5 x 5 IR with circle dot that thing is really a nice rifle scope! I asked if I could look at some 6.8 Cartridges while there. They are sure bigger than a .223, then the 25 year old kid behind the counter told me he had killed over 300 deer in his life and that he would never shoot a deer with a .223 as a .223 would not even take down a 150 pound man which was why the army was dumping it. He told me that if I knew anything about deer hunting I would never consider a 223 for the job. These were all good points I thought.

maybe I need two new toys a ranch rifle in 6.8 and a .223 upper for target practice.

If you didn't buy anything you should have at least paid him for the advise

Advice like that is hard to find.......




fortunately.

jimmyp, after using a 3-9 Trijicon the first day, I swapped it for a VX-III, 1.5-5 Circle Dot the second day. It is an awesome hunting scope. Very fast to get back on target after the previous shot. I'm going to leave it on for good. No problem on that 200 yard running shot.

But unfortunately, all to common behind the gun counters at the large chain stores...

I was flat sold when I looked through it! The 2 x 7 VXR is OK but that 1.5 x 5 circle dot IR is better.

Gene,

The difference is that when I write about some aspect of shooting or hunting, I have some experience with the subject.

Rost, agree like you I suspect GeneL's ranger tab there means he has shot more than hogs with the 223.

I am also sure it does, and we appreciate his service!

But how it pertains to the OP is another question.

You imply that I should accept your experience with the 6.8 when you won't accept mine with the .223. That's a a one-way street I won't travel.

I don't question your experience in shooting or hunting, but wondert why you question mine. Or dismiss it entirely: "No one cares how much experience you've had with a .223." That statement shows an unfortunately petulant side of you I wish I hadn't seen. I guess it pays to separate the man from his writing. As for experience, does the fact that I have a LOT more experience with the .223 render your experience less valid? No, of course not.

I hope you haven't been lulled into a sense of infalability the billet-douxs you get from your adoring fans here. Me, I would blush.

I never overstated my experience with the 6.8. I have no experience. I don't own one, will never own one, and don't want one.

Gene L---here is the original question. Since you have NO experience, if you had just kept out of it, there would have been alot less bullschit to this thread. I thought the question was pretty straight forward...

Gene,

I apologize for the "nobody cares" crack.

My point was, however, that your experience with the .223 didn't address the original post.

I also never expected you (or anybody) to accept my experience with the 6.8. I just stated what I have done with the round, and in fact haven't totally made up my mind about it. But my previous experience with other rounds suggests that there is an advantage to heavier, wider bullets at the same basic velocities as the .223. I do, for instance, see a difference in performance between the .223 and the .250 Savage, which is very similar in ballistics to the 6.8. (For that matter, I see a definite difference in performance between the .223 and the .22-250, whether on coyotes or deer, but that isn't relevant to this discussion.)

Also, the guy I did all my 6.8 SPC hunting with was Bill Wilson, of Wilson Combat Firearms. Bill is no longer competing in handgun shooting, but is a hunting nut, to the point where he bought a ranch in northeast Texas so he could hunt pigs and deer. Bill has shot a LOT of pigs and a considerable number of NE Texas whitetails, as have his wife and his guests. He definitely sees a difference in performance between the .223 and 6.8, and has enough hands-on experience that I take his opinion seriously.

What is so difficult to understand that most of the people in this thread have experience shooting BOTH and you only have experience shooting one?

Your own statement:



You seem to grasp the concept briefly when preaching to others, but then for some reason cannot wrap your head around the fact that this also applies to you.

We all respect your experience with the .223. Why do you refuse to give others the same respect for the experience they have with the 6.8SPC, or even more applicable, their experience with BOTH cartridges, which would actually allow someone to make an educated comparison rather than just "talking out their hat".

The hypocrisy is deafening.

Killing [bleep] is the easy part. I'm just guessing that a guy might could kill a critter or three with either.

Of course. But that wasn't the original question.

Just keeping up with the turns.

Gotcha!

I am trying myself....

I wonder if the 300ACC blackout might be a better choice?

Then why do you go out of your way to disparage something you know nothing about and presumptuously assume that those of us who actually use and like the 6.8 are only trying to justify a bad purchase? Why do you condescendingly discount the experiences of those who do have actual experience with it yet offer nothing but negativity in return?

I probably pop more .223 caps annually than any other cartridge, but this thread isn't about .223.

I want one just because it's .277" and we all know that means it's the best

Mike

Hey MD, you said you hunted with Bill on his TX ranch. The land I hunt is about 50 miles from Bill's place, with similar river bottom habitat.

So, judging by what you saw there and the fact the feral hog population has exploded throughout TX, you can imagine how infested with hogs my place is.

Oh, man, you have piggies! Which direction is your land from Cuthand?

That was my first time hunting in that part of Texas, in a dozen trips to various parts of the state. Nifty country, with the big oaks and all the streams.

It's south west of his place, not far from Greenville, TX.

My brother owns 300 acres about 3 miles from his place, near Bogata, and I grew up about 25 miles south of there. I met Bill at last year's SHOT show; we have a mutual friend. He's a nice guy!

I take your opinion seriously. And of course, accept your apology.

Will a 6.8 perform "better" than a .223? Certainly it should, delivering a heavier bullet at a good (although sometimes over-reported) velocity. That's just physics.

The question for me (and I assume others) is: If the 6.8 is far superior to my .223, should I sell my 223 and buy a 6.8. Well, no. I like the .223, and have other rifles if I need something else, and Im not wedded to the AR as a hunting firearm. Sights are too high up off the barrel. The .223 v 6.8 begs comparison because the platform popular for both rounds, the AR. And ARs figured prominently in the discussion as a main reason for choosing the 6.8.

The predominate argument from the 6.8ers seems to be that it's a better performer IN AN AR. OK, I agree in somem ways, it's better. In some ways, it's a lot worse...varmint hunting, for example.

Thus endeth my discussion on the 6.8.

And if anyone thinks my Ranger tab is fake, I invite that person to come remove it from my tattooed back.

Gene,

I take your opinion seriously too.

If I lived somewhere pigs were regularly hunted, I'd probably get a 6.8. But the best use for an AR where I live is for shooting coyotes--which is why my own AR's a .223.

Good hunting!

IF i"m moving up, the next stop for me from 223 is 30 caliber. I don't typically mess with in between. I do have the 6mm one though...

And yep, I HATE .277 calibers. 270 allen mag one day maybe at the outmost.

I don't like Porsches either, just the way I am. Of course I don't care much for vettes either, but 442s.....

Of course back to the 7.62 statement, that one I've SEEN good results on 200 yards and in on pigs. Yet as much as I've shot my nephews one.... I still have not bought one because I don't see a particular need.

I read that article. Bunch of writing in there pumping up a round. IF its so dang good why don't we have it yet? Heck I think the 6.5 grendel is a better round than the 6.8 by FAR and I shot one a LOT in its testing stages as a 6.5 ppc before Alexander got involved. Even tweaked the mag lips for some of Arne's mags to make them function better when accuracy testing at 600. But I don't own one because I have no use for them at this point.

RifleDude,

That's a nice part of Texas, but then I have been to several nice parts of Texas--all of them outside of the big cities.

Bill is a really nice guy, and a pig-hunting fanatic. We had a great time hunting them both day and night.

150 hogs I passed in my 20s..... Whats a matter with em running a bit? I was a big bowhunter, they always run then. Just gotta go look a bit.
As to killing em quickly, I honestly can't recall lately when I've not shot one in the head. Its the way to fly. And even as they scatter I try for the heads. But front shoulders work too. And as I've said, the 223 and select bullets have not let me down. If I feel the need for more, Its almost always reach for my 308s and sometimes my M1 Garands.... 06 semi auto works wonders.

They all die if you put a good bullet in a good place like I said. As to size.... we've only killed a few over 300, but all with bows, and all have been down in less than 50 yards. The ones with my 22, generally at feeders and let someone else shoot first, I let em scatter a hair and when the first one stops I ding em in the lungs with the 22 and then go look later after we get the first ones on the truck.. mostly 150 and under. But 150 and under with a 22 HP to the lungs they don't go far. That was when I only carried a 22 pistol as a backup years ago. I haven't shot one with a 22 in a long time. Most all have been either 223 AR or happenstance with a deer rifle.

I'd be glad to come up and try my 223 on your pigs though to see if they are tougher. Grins. And once again, if they are tougher(they could well have russian in them and almost all I've shot have been straight feral) we could try the 6.8 and see the difference for myself.

Though thankfully I have NO experience at all, I highly suspect it should be harder to kill a 2 legger than a 4 legger..... that would be pertinent to the discussion IMHO.

Ted, you should save this quote for the optics forum.

Nobody suggested anyone should sell their .223s, only that it wasn't as effective on larger critters than 6.8. That has been the point all along. Of course the 6.8 is not better at all things than .223, and nobody suggested that either. The same can be said for just about any 2 other cartridges you can compare as well. I too would pick .223 over 6.8 if the quarry was coyotes. I don't see where that was ever in dispute either. Since the topic of the thread is "6.8 SPC" and the OP asked about the merits of 6.8, not .223, it follows that the resulting discussion would center around the applications where the 6.8 IS superior. I think .223 is a far superior varmint cartridge, and I buttress that assertion with the expenditure of some 5 - 8,000 rounds of .223 every year at my favorite prairie rat town.

Now that I"ve been back from a school meeting and answered or commented enough

I'd like to say... I appreciate this mostly staying civil. One can always learn.

AND.. bullet choice makes a world of difference as does shot placement. Shoot em in the lungs with a tsx and expect em to run. Ding em in the lungs with an accubomb and more likely to fold. Use an accubomb to make long penetration might be a mistake.... but a tsx otoh... Similar to this past weekend.... BIL decides to shoot ttsx... in his 308, dings a javelina and I'd told him to break bones if he wanted it to stay were it was... as it was shot it in the heart and it ran. I asked him why he didn't stick with 125 BTs like he usually used....said he hear the ttsx was better but the dang thing ran off... bleeding... and dying quickly....

Its all in what you expect too.

Among the reasons Bill Wilson likes the 6.8 for pigs is that in his particular part of Texas the brush under the oak trees is very thick, and the rain comes down regularly, about 60" a year. When I hunted with him, last February, it rained a lot more than it didn't. So a blood trail doesn't help a lot, much of the time.

He likes the 6.8 with TSX's because even a really big pig can be shot where it will drop right there, even from odd angles. He not only shoots a lot of pigs himself, but has many guests. His preferred placement (which I have also heard from other Texas pig hunters, including many professional guides) is right in the middle of the neck, just in front of the shoulders. If placed right it gets the spine, but even if it misses the spine gets major blood vessels. Obviously, depending on angle this can require some penetration of bone, aside from the spine.

So far he likes the Tipped TSX in the 6.8 a lot, because it expands wider than the standard TSX, and hence cuts a bigger hole.

What are you talking about? We do have it, in spades. There are tons of commercial rifles chambered for it right now. If I don't choose to roll my own, I can buy factory ammo for it at 90% of the gun stores in my area.

If you're talking about military use, it's being used in Special Ops right now, but it probably won't ever totally replace 5.56 for economic and political reasons... though the Jordanian military is adopting it.

The same can't be said for 6.5 Grendel, though you'll get no argument from me that it's a fine round. I even said it's a better LR round, and it's probably inherently more accurate by virtue of its PPC lineage. I debated between it and 6.8. I chose 6.8 only because it's much cheaper to shoot and they both do virtually the same thing at the short to moderate distances where I typically deploy an AR.

I bowhunt hogs quite a bit as well. Incidentally, all the hogs I've killed have been just in the past 7 years! I've hunted every year since I was 7, and for whatever reason, I never saw the first wild hog in these parts until I was in my mid 30's. Since then, it seems their numbers have exploded all of a sudden!

There's nothing really wrong with them running. I just like the more immediate hit confirmation I get with DRT so when they scatter, I can tell which among similar looking pigs I've already hit. The way I see it, if I have a better mousetrap available to me, I'm gonna use it.

With rifles, I try to take head shots when I can as well, but that shot isn't always available and isn't practical in target rich environments when they scatter after the first shot.

We have a pretty good mix of the ferals and the more Russian / European variety on my place. One of my hunting buddies shot one a tad over 400; it was the largest one we've killed on the place so far that I'm aware of. Most of the adult hogs we kill weigh between 150 - 200. I've killed several that have topped 300, but they are far less common. A 300+ lb boar is a really tough, mean critter. I could tell you some stories about their toughness that I wouldn't believe myself had I not witnessed it!

Absolutely! You're welcome to come visit sometime!

Maybe we could arrange some sort of "hunting exchange."

Just so I understand your point, are you saying that a human can take more damage from a bullet and survive or flee than an animal such as a hog or deer?

I've found the 223AI to drop deer far quicker than a 30/06. Stands to reason if the 6.8 is better at slaying larger critters than the 223 than the 30/06 should be twice that effective.

Just ain't so.

The 5.56 is very capable of killing folks.

The 6.8 is probably better at shooting thru stuff and killing folks.

JM

where is our resident Dink shooter Ingwe with his 22-250? This discussion is the same as our 308 vs 30-06 or 270 Win vs 243 etc. There are people who own 243's that do not own 30-06 rifles while those that own 30-06 rifles have both and claim far better results with the 30-06 over the .243 on 150-200 pound animals and yet somewhere in the back of our minds we all remember that dead is dead, a hole thru the vitals with even .17 caliber produces that results.

I apologize for any antagonism that I generated in this thread, I really want to try the 6.8 in a short handy deer hunting rifle, that's a project for this year as well! In the gun shop I was in yesterday there were literally hundreds of 223 AR type weapons, many in boxes stacked on the floor, the place was full and people were spending money.

Count me in for two deer and a antelope in 2010 all one shot.Kawi

Count me in for two deer and a antelope in 2010 all one shot with the 6.8

Yep, which is a big part of the reason those SOC and AMU folks spent the time developing it.

My first cusins son has completed 3 combat tours in Iraq and he said that unless one hit them in the head or the heart they never found a body, just blood and they were gone. He shot one once and he could see the clothing move with every upper body hit, but the insurgent kept on going and got away

But, the question is do you know what the 6.8 wil do?

I don't want to keep dragging this out but do you know if anyone is using the 6.8 now? I have read that the 6.8 was dropped by everyone including SF and they have gone to MK262.

Of course this doesn't mean the 5.56 is better, worse or as good, just wondering if it really is dead or not.

I believe SOCOM is still using it.

The Jordanian military has adopted it.

It definitely isn't dead in the civilian market. Far from it.

Given M855 ammo and a 14.5" barrel with the resulting velocity loss, I can certainly understand a fringe hit not being lethal. But that goes with any bullet that won't open up or fragment regardless of caliber.

The MK262 is able to adapt to different calibers from 5.56 NATO, 7.62X39 as well as 6.8 SPC11 depending on the mission requirements

-----------------------------------------------------------------


http://militaryvids.wordpress.com/2...forces-combat-assault-rifle-usa-belgium/



The US Special Operations Command (US SOCOM) issued a solicitation for the procurement of SOF Combat Assault Rifles (SCAR) on October 15th, 2003. This solicitation requested a new combat rifle, specially tailored for the current and proposed future needs of the US Special Forces, which are somewhat different from latest generic US Army requirements, which are being fulfilled by the newest Heckler-Koch XM8 assault rifle. The key difference in basic requirements between XM8 and SCAR is that, while XM8 is a single-caliber weapon system, tailored for 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition, the SCAR should be available in various different calibers. Initial SOF requirements included two basic versions of SCAR system � the SCAR Light (SCAR-L), available in 5.56mm NATO, and the SCAR heavy (SCAR-H), which should be initially available in significantly more powerful 7.62�51 NATO chambering, and should be easily adaptable in the field to other chamberings. These other chamberings initially include the well-spread 7.62�39 M43 ammunition of the Soviet / Russian origins, and probably some others (like the proposed 6.8�43 Remington SPC cartridge, especially developed for US Special Forces). The key idea of SCAR rifle system is that it will provide the Special Forces operators with wide variety of options, from short-barreled 5.56mm SCAR-L CQC variation, tailored for urban close combat, and up to long range 7.62�51 SCAR-H Sniper variant, as well as 7.62�39 SCAR-H, which will accept �battlefield pickup� AK-47/AKM magazines with 7.62 M43 ammunition, available during the operations behind the enemy lines.

MK262 is ammo loaded by Black hills with 77gr SMK's.

My cusin uses an M-4, acctualy on his last deployment he was issued 3 weapons the other 2 were a 12 guage and an M-9. He had the options of selecting which weapon to use based on the mission

The Military is using a multitude of different bullets inorder to help the effectiveness of the 5.56 in todays battle fields. The Marines recantly purchased 2 million rounds of Open Tip ammo for thier troops. Even Barnes bullets have been or are being used by some

I'd be interested in a link to back these claims of "multitude of different bullets" up. The open tip ammo is Mk262 and has been cleared with JAG. I know of a report on Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (sort of) bullets being tested but have not seen any info on Barnes being used. Although if they could be cleared by JAG would help them go "green" which is in their plans.

I just purchased and shot some Remington Premier Match 77 grain Matchking BTHP, my 16 inch Noveske really likes them, and it should at $28 a box. SSA has them for $18 a box IIRC.

The author of this thread originally asked about killing game with the 6.8 SPC. Predictably, perhaps helpfully, a discussion of 6.8 versus 5.56 in the tactical role followed.

I found myself thinking that, perhaps, we need to remember is that SPC stands for "Special Purpose Cartridge". The 6.8 seems to perform well in several number of roles, but it was developed for one special purpose. A link to a fine document explaining that purpose can be found at http://www.68forums.com/articles.php, and the document itself at http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. It is a fascinating piece of writing, well worth your time to peruse in depth. The author seems to have "street cred" when it comes to wound ballistics.

I cannot argue with those who have faced the enemy and found the 5.56 adequate. (Thank you for standing between America and the monsters who would kill us all.) It is pretty clear that enough trigger pullers have had unsatisfactory experiences to justify looking for an alternative.

In the Roberts document is found the following: "During SPC development different bullet diameters of 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 6.8mm, 7 mm, and 7.62 mm were tested, using multiple bullet types, shapes, and weights from 90 to 140 gr--the 6.8 mm was selected because it offered the BEST combination of combat accuracy, reliability, and terminal performance for 0-500 yard engagements in an M4 size package."

And, "6.8 mm offers superior terminal EFFECTIVENESS compared to 5.56 mm in all environments, including CQB & Urban, especially when fired from short barrels. Unlike 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm continues to demonstrate good terminal performance even after defeating common intermediate barriers, such as glass, walls, and automobiles, as well as loaded AK47 magazines, like those frequently worn in chest pouches by terrorists."

The enemy is incapacitated via broken body parts, period. If a .277 bullet of modest weight provides a better broken parts factor in a wider variety of circumstances, by all means give our warfighters that which works. That the 6.8 is a fine low-recoil cartridge for training new shooters, and that it works well on deer, hogs, and coyotes is great, and appreciated. It's special purpose, however, is busting bad guys. It appears to do that more consistently than available 5.56 loads, and (important!) is available at minimal procurement cost. A switch of uppers and magazines on the standard M4 platform will get you rockin' and rollin'.

Again, I suggest you read the well-illustrated document. The author makes a convincing argument.

So, with its superior ability to incapacitate soldiers, do you think that it will have a strong following in the military, or are they avoiding it?

Thanks for the links

One reason that inhibits the acceptance of the 6.8 (if it were ever to be considered) is the fact that the change would not be just for the US, it would be for NATO. That ain't gonna happen given today's economic reality.

Testing conclusively demenstrates that the 6.8 is by far the better performing round as evidenced by this work


http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

A very good link indeed. I've seen this one from "Doc" it's interesting as well.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/5_56mm_military_info.pdf

both of these links are interesting. Me I would shoot the bastards with expanding softpoint ammunition and be done with it. To hell with some stupid convention. The 6.8 is better how can it not be? On the other hand if you have invested in .223 and have multiple platforms that shoot that caliber, should you invest in 6.8 and wind up stuffing a magazine loaded with 6.8 into a .223 gun during while in a tight spot then you are pretty much screwed. KISS Keep it simple stupid, is a good rule to live by. So go shoot those bears with the 6.8, I will shoot the deer with the little underpowered .223 but using softpoint ammunition and buy the 55 grain FMJ surplus to practice with.

Why would one have a magazine stuffed with 223 when carring a 6.8?

why does anything happen in the real world? Mistakes happen. As diligent as we try to be, mistakes happen. Thus KISS.

If i get a 6.8 it will be in a non AR platform, well at least until someone loads the 6.8's in enough quantity that there exists cheap surplus military practice ammunition.

The 6.8SPC is a better cartridge, but right now I will stick with the 5.56 in the AR platform.

Why not have both? It gives you an excuse to buy another rifle -- always a good thing!

It is a truism, you notice everything wrong with what you have, but cling to it because it is what you know.
The 5.56 has proven to have some weakness in urban type combat and the smart enemies that face it know them. So our troops get engaged from settings that the lighter bullet isn't as good at handling. Incentive to go to the higher energy round for the reasons already noted above. But what about what it won't do as well as the 5.56? Don't know all those things yet and some worry about what might go wrong, more then what will go right. Besides, any transistion costs money and the bean counters get all tight-azzed when that comes up.

But the US military has changed before, and if they see the future of warfare as urban based, with firefights in close quarters and the enemy behind barriers that need more punch for rounds to get home, then they will likely push for the change. The bean counters will push back. The innovation crowd will push for it, just because it is change and therefore better. The status quo crowd will fight it because it is change and therefore bad.

Deer don't know these issues, and therefore both rounds are pretty effective, if you can shoot them well enough.

no doubt! that is the plan.

and yet we insist on shooting terrorists with FMJ Geneva Convention, Marcus of Queensbury, Nevil Chamberlan, Sessame Street, Politically correct bullets.

The Marines recently purchased 2 million rounds of open tip ammo for their troops

God Bless the US Marines. I could never figure why we were using warfare techniques designed for human battle against rabid animals that murder infants, children, innocents, anyone and anything that does not bend to the will of their god.

I see Ruger offers their little compact rifle in 6.8SPC.

jimmyp,

Also in the mini-14, and the new Ruger SR black rifle! But I think Ruger is the only major gun maker offering that caliber right now.

For a few dollars more I got a custom Ruger #1 in the caliber.

Don't own a .223 rifle black or not -- so no mixups likely here. (grin)

1B