I've been reading on some threads about how the .243 Win. is a better cartridge than a 25-06 and that a 25-06 with 120 grain bullets is as effective as a .270 Win. I've also read about how effective the .270 can be on grizzly bears. We all know that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .270 Win. and a 30-06 and the 30-06 is a supreme grizzly bear cartridge.
Ergo, the .243 Win is as effective as a 30-06, especially with the new magic bullets, and is a grizzly killer extraordinaire.
You must be bored. The 243 wouldn't be my first choice. Will it work? Yes. I'd want a good penetrating bullet and not terribly tight quarters. I'll take the '06 over the 270 any day for griz. Especially if using C&C bullets. The mono's certainly give the smaller calibers/lighter bullets a boost in performance on heavier/tougher critters. As always, placement trumps everything else.
I would suspect that if one could shoot and was picky about when to shoot and when not to shoot, I don't think you would have anything but a dead Bear. Mountian Grizzly taken in the course of a sheep hunt yea it would do, would it be idea, no I would want more bullet myself. My one and only grizzly I ever shot was on a stone sheep hunt way back in 1984, Killed it with a 270 and 130 gr bullets, the rifle was a push Winchester FWT M-70 and a 4x Zeiss scope on it. The guide use a 30-30 win for his main hunting rifle, all he cared about was that its light and short and easy to carry and the moose die just the same. He was happy I bought something just right.
Jordan says to shoot them up the snout. Can't do that from a tall tree. I need to practice sneaking up real close so I can put the end of the barrel up the bear's nostril.
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
I've been reading on some threads about how the .243 Win. is a better cartridge than a 25-06 and that a 25-06 with 120 grain bullets is as effective as a .270 Win. I've also read about how effective the .270 can be on grizzly bears. We all know that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .270 Win. and a 30-06 and the 30-06 is a supreme grizzly bear cartridge.
Ergo, the .243 Win is as effective as a 30-06, especially with the new magic bullets, and is a grizzly killer extraordinaire.
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
Mule Deer,did you ever write for Saturday Night Live,if not,you should.
Jordan says to shoot them up the snout. Can't do that from a tall tree. I need to practice sneaking up real close so I can put the end of the barrel up the bear's nostril.
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
AFTER the OP, which was TnC -
This post makes the most sense, is the most accurate, and most practical. Good Job MD.
We all like our Karamojo fantasies and I think (hope) you�re just indulging yours. This may be a little off subject and I don�t want to be a buzz kill, but I�ll relay a story.
Years ago while working in Kotzebue a friend who just starting to clear land and build a cabin across Kotzebue Sound pulled up with a four wheeler with a tarp covered trailer and asked if I knew where the Fish & Game office was. I didn�t and asked him why. He replied �Let me show you something� and peeled back the tarp to reveal a fresh (interior) grizzly hide and a flesh covered skull.
Note: In these days brown and grizzly bears were highly prized game animals that required a special tag and was generally restricted to one bear every four years. This was before the state ran into so much opposition (with calls for tourist boycotts) in their predator control program which was primarily focused on wolves. In response the state liberalized the brown / grizzly to one bear every year to help reduce caribou and moose calf mortality. (But I digress).
Anyways, my friend (a musher) was living in a wall tent while he had started clearing the cabin and dog lot site. At the time he had 20-40 huskies chained up in the yard and early one morning there was quite a ruckus from the dogs. He got up and grabbed his shotgun loaded with buckshot and stepped out of the tent to see what was going on. As he cleared the tent a grizzly step out from a brush pile 15-20 feet away facing him. I don�t recall if the bear stood or charged, but my friend was pretty cool under pressure and wouldn�t have shot unless he felt he had to.
The end product was there he was with the hide and skull to surrender to the fish and game as required by law when one shoots a bear in defense of life and property (now a days with the liberalized seasons and a resident no longer requiring a tag this would be a non-issue). The point of all this is that of all of the 00 pellets only one made its way up the snout producing a lethal wound, all the rest of the pellets just slid along the surface of the skull just under the skin with no penetration. It looked a lot like peeling the bark off a tree that has been killed by bark beetles where the larvae had burrowed just under the bark into the cambium but never cut into the wood.
Did he kill the bear? Yes. Would you expect that to be a consistent outcome, I doubt it.
We all like our Karamojo fantasies and I think (hope) you�re just indulging yours. This may be a little off subject and I don�t want to be a buzz kill, but I�ll relay a story.
Years ago while working in Kotzebue a friend who just starting to clear land and build a cabin across Kotzebue Sound pulled up with a four wheeler with a tarp covered trailer and asked if I knew where the Fish & Game office was. I didn�t and asked him why. He replied �Let me show you something� and peeled back the tarp to reveal a fresh (interior) grizzly hide and a flesh covered skull.
Note: In these days brown and grizzly bears were highly prized game animals that required a special tag and was generally restricted to one bear every four years. This was before the state ran into so much opposition (with calls for tourist boycotts) in their predator control program which was primarily focused on wolves. In response the state liberalized the brown / grizzly to one bear every year to help reduce caribou and moose calf mortality. (But I digress).
Anyways, my friend (a musher) was living in a wall tent while he had started clearing the cabin and dog lot site. At the time he had 20-40 huskies chained up in the yard and early one morning there was quite a ruckus from the dogs. He got up and grabbed his shotgun loaded with buckshot and stepped out of the tent to see what was going on. As he cleared the tent a grizzly step out from a brush pile 15-20 feet away facing him. I don�t recall if the bear stood or charged, but my friend was pretty cool under pressure and wouldn�t have shot unless he felt he had to.
The end product was there he was with the hide and skull to surrender to the fish and game as required by law when one shoots a bear in defense of life and property (now a days with the liberalized seasons and a resident no longer requiring a tag this would be a non-issue). The point of all this is that of all of the 00 pellets only one made its way up the snout producing a lethal wound, all the rest of the pellets just slid along the surface of the skull just under the skin with no penetration. It looked a lot like peeling the bark off a tree that has been killed by bark beetles where the larvae had burrowed just under the bark into the cambium but never cut into the wood.
Did he kill the bear? Yes. Would you expect that to be a consistent outcome, I doubt it.
Neat story. Keep in mind that a pellet of 00 buck weighs something like 54 grains, is traveling 1250 fps or so, and tends to behave a bit different than a 3000 fps expanding bullet.
I remember a few years ago I saw a video of Jim Shockey hunting polar bear with his muzzle loader. He asked his Inuit guide what was his back up rifle and the guide said a 243. According to the video Jim hunted for days for bear but at the end the bear found him. While camped in an igloo they heard a commotion outside and it turned out to be a polar bear trying to have husky steak. He did get his bear at practically point blank range with a smoke pole.
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
Awesome! I'm asking Rick to change my handle to "B.S. Daily" ASAP! I love it.
We all like our Karamojo fantasies and I think (hope) you�re just indulging yours. This may be a little off subject and I don�t want to be a buzz kill, but I�ll relay a story.
Years ago while working in Kotzebue a friend who just starting to clear land and build a cabin across Kotzebue Sound pulled up with a four wheeler with a tarp covered trailer and asked if I knew where the Fish & Game office was. I didn�t and asked him why. He replied �Let me show you something� and peeled back the tarp to reveal a fresh (interior) grizzly hide and a flesh covered skull.
Note: In these days brown and grizzly bears were highly prized game animals that required a special tag and was generally restricted to one bear every four years. This was before the state ran into so much opposition (with calls for tourist boycotts) in their predator control program which was primarily focused on wolves. In response the state liberalized the brown / grizzly to one bear every year to help reduce caribou and moose calf mortality. (But I digress).
Anyways, my friend (a musher) was living in a wall tent while he had started clearing the cabin and dog lot site. At the time he had 20-40 huskies chained up in the yard and early one morning there was quite a ruckus from the dogs. He got up and grabbed his shotgun loaded with buckshot and stepped out of the tent to see what was going on. As he cleared the tent a grizzly step out from a brush pile 15-20 feet away facing him. I don�t recall if the bear stood or charged, but my friend was pretty cool under pressure and wouldn�t have shot unless he felt he had to.
The end product was there he was with the hide and skull to surrender to the fish and game as required by law when one shoots a bear in defense of life and property (now a days with the liberalized seasons and a resident no longer requiring a tag this would be a non-issue). The point of all this is that of all of the 00 pellets only one made its way up the snout producing a lethal wound, all the rest of the pellets just slid along the surface of the skull just under the skin with no penetration. It looked a lot like peeling the bark off a tree that has been killed by bark beetles where the larvae had burrowed just under the bark into the cambium but never cut into the wood.
Did he kill the bear? Yes. Would you expect that to be a consistent outcome, I doubt it.
Neat story. Keep in mind that a pellet of 00 buck weighs something like 54 grains, is traveling 1250 fps or so, and tends to behave a bit different than a 3000 fps expanding bullet.
Thank you.
It might have been 000 buckshot (at 70 grains) for all I recall. And no I don�t mean to imply that buckshot has as good of properties as a .243 Win bullet. I have another friend (long story) that stopped an interior grizzly at 15-20 feet with a .44 Mag and hard cast bullets. My point is that when using marginal cartridges you can�t necessarily expect to replicate those outcomes consistently.
The .243 Win even with monoliths may deflect along the skull surface or on �up the snout� shots may bust out the sides or top of the sinus passage if the angle isn�t right.
All the animals we kill deserve a clean demise and I don�t think that can be done consistently with marginal cartridge.
I would agree wholeheartedly with you on the fact we all have a responsibility to dispatch game as humanely as possible. Given the parameters of the cartridge with a chosen tough bullet, I wouldn't be shooting to break down shoulders like I would with a larger caliber, but rather be looking to thread one behind the shoulder and through the heart/lungs. If close, I'd also not quibble about putting a solid or monolithic bullet between the eyes.
That said, I've had a big interior grizz (8 footer) stand up after an errant .338 hit him towards the back of the head from a quartering on shot at about 250 yards, shooting at a downward angle (no, not me, I just seem to always be part of the clean up crew). Of course we didn't know where that first shot hit him until we skinned him out. He dropped like a rock, but became rather reenergized when we walked up to him.
I think a .243 using that new line of "tracker bullets" from Nosler could be just the ticket. Why you could just follow the trail 'til you bumped into that wily ole griz! Just get out the digital and set up for those hero pics.
You must be bored. The 243 wouldn't be my first choice. Will it work? Yes. I'd want a good penetrating bullet and not terribly tight quarters. I'll take the '06 over the 270 any day for griz. Especially if using C&C bullets. The mono's certainly give the smaller calibers/lighter bullets a boost in performance on heavier/tougher critters. As always, placement trumps everything else.
.............For a grizz? A 243? Not my 1st choice by a longshot either.
Oh sure! The 243 will kill a grizz with a good bullet or bullets and with good placement.
Why not just try a 22 caliber too? Maybe a few have. And should that work well for some, then what the hell. Then they can graduate "up" to a 17 caliber for their next grizzly hunt.
While bowhunting the Colville River on the North Slope of the Brooks Range in 1989, Mike the kid who ran the boat for OJ Smith out of Umiat had a grizzly tag. While we were hunting up river, Mike filled his grizzly tag with his Remington M600 .243 loaded with Coreloks. The carcass was close enough to camp that I checked it out and it was a decent barren ground grizzly. He hit it behind the shoulder and the bear was dead shortly as I remember the story. He went on to describe how the Eskimos were moving up to the .243 for polar bears after years of using the .222.
Mike also shot a nice bull moose and the .243 worked fine it too. Might not be my choice but experienced Alaskans who relied on their rifles to keep them alive were using .243s a quarter century ago.
yeah and the 06 is ALMOST as good as the 300 win mag. so the .243 is almost, almost...as good lol
I think you're pushing things there. The 300 Win. Mag. is much more powerful than the 30-06. In fact, the 300 Win. Mag. has such tremendous recoil that some hunters are replacing them with 7mm Rem. Mags. Now, since the 7mm Rem. Mag. can't handle bullets as heavy as the 30-06, it is potentially less effective than the 30-06. Also, we've established that the .243 Win. is roughly equivalent to the 30-06. Ergo, the .243 Win. is more effective than the 7mm Rem Mag.
The previous assumes you are using a 105 A-Max in the .243 Win. Also, all you guys that suggested using an 85 gr. Barnes TSX are deluding yourselves. I've read numerous times that it is the 105 A-Max that makes the .243 a great cartridge.
yeah and the 06 is ALMOST as good as the 300 win mag. so the .243 is almost, almost...as good lol
I think you're pushing things there. The 300 Win. Mag. is much more powerful than the 30-06. In fact, the 300 Win. Mag. has such tremendous recoil that some hunters are replacing them with 7mm Rem. Mags. Now, since the 7mm Rem. Mag. can't handle bullets as heavy as the 30-06, it is potentially less effective than the 30-06. Also, we've established that the .243 Win. is roughly equivalent to the 30-06. Ergo, the .243 Win. is more effective than the 7mm Rem Mag.
The previous assumes you are using a 105 A-Max in the .243 Win. Also, all you guys that suggested using an 85 gr. Barnes TSX are deluding yourselves. I've read numerous times that it is the 105 A-Max that makes the .243 a great cartridge.
I've been reading on some threads about how the .243 Win. is a better cartridge than a 25-06 and that a 25-06 with 120 grain bullets is as effective as a .270 Win. I've also read about how effective the .270 can be on grizzly bears. We all know that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .270 Win. and a 30-06 and the 30-06 is a supreme grizzly bear cartridge.
Ergo, the .243 Win is as effective as a 30-06, especially with the new magic bullets, and is a grizzly killer extraordinaire.
Sorry, I'm bored.
LOL.....so where does the .223 fit in here?......good humor indeed!
Frank Glaser, "Alaska's Wolf Man" who was a market hunter starting in 1915 and a government trapper/wolf control guy through 1954 said the killingest cartridge he ever used was the Swift... Except for big bears where he felt "those little pills" were just too small.
In the book he describes killing a couple bigger interior bears with the Swift and all the fun it was... The best c&c of those days versus today's monlithics would certainly not make the Swift any worse...
In 1907, when BC was 99.9% still raw wilderness, there was a young Englishman, who decided to "come out to the colonies" to live a life of adventure, as was quite common in the late 19th and early 20thC.s.
He settled up the Lardeau, north of Kootenay Lake and where the huge volume of the largest Rainbow Trout on the planet, as well as hordes of Dolly Varden Char, various Whitefish, Suckers and Kokanee Salmon, spawned every year. The area supported one of the largest Grizzly populations anywhere and still has lots of bears, as does the Kootenay region as a whole.
In those times, relatively few sporting rifles were available on the BC "frontier", the huge numbers of cheap, surplus Lee-Enfield, Ross and Springfield WWI and WWII sold post-war, were still in the future, so, the pioneers used what they could get.
Wm."Billy" Clark, this chap, bought an early Mannlicher-Schoenaur, chambered 6.5x54MS and used that and a cut-down Mauser, .43 for many decades while shooting scores of game animals and working his traplines and prospecting.
He shot a Grizzly,with the 6.5, that measured 8.5' from nose to tail and that is a BIG bear, especially in the interior, even in those days of salmonid protein available in abundance.
This, would have been with factory ammo of that time and it did the job, the bear was mounted and displayed for many years in a museum in Oslo, Norway.
I knew Billy, stayed with him in his camp the year before he was flooded out when the accursed "Columbia River Treaty" hydrodams were built/flooded and he was a very pleasant, polite and highly knowledgable man and a real "mountain man", a term often used now by many urbanites.
So, seems as though the .243 might well work, but, I doubt that many Alaskan-BC bush workers would choose one.
Well, maybe that "famous" all-around hunter-master outdoorsman, who used to write for, IIRC, "G&A", his name was "Clay" somebody?
I know of zero professional guides who recommend .243 for these large bears. A professional guide's experience and knowledge should be respected for it's worth.
I know of zero professional guides who recommend .243 for these large bears. A professional guide's experience and knowledge should be respected for it's worth.
Sherwood
Hear! Hear!
I'm not saying the big bears can NOT be killed with small or diminutive cartridges. They obviously have. The 22 LR has killed more than its share of Wts. Does that make it a good or reliable deer hunting cartridge. NO
POACHERS like to use it because of so little noise but they don't care if or how many deer RUN OFF and die a wasted death.
I really don't think 'some' have given serious consideration to what is said on forums like this. I don't think they have thot about others w/o knowledge or experience who might read their 'recommendations' and proceed to hunt BG or DANGEROUS game and RISK their lives and may get killed & eaten.
This is an 'open forum'. Anyone could 'google' cartridges for big bear and NOW consider what they 'might' read.
I've been reading on some threads about how the .243 Win. is a better cartridge than a 25-06 and that a 25-06 with 120 grain bullets is as effective as a .270 Win. I've also read about how effective the .270 can be on grizzly bears. We all know that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .270 Win. and a 30-06 and the 30-06 is a supreme grizzly bear cartridge.
Ergo, the .243 Win is as effective as a 30-06, especially with the new magic bullets, and is a grizzly killer extraordinaire.
Sorry, I'm bored.
The 243 is indeed a great grizzly killer, the trick is to let the griz get real close before you pull the trigger. I'm pm'ing a short list of guys to take with you griz hunting.
One of my 1959 timber-cruising partners in Alaska was Fairbanksan "Big John," 6'10" with IQ in inverse proportion. He carried a .243 and vociferously ridiculed my .35 Whelen � swore that the .243 was all that anybody needed in Alaska, even when the big bears charged.
One evening after work, he grabbed his Winchester and plunged into the brush. After a while, we heard Bam1! Bam! Bam! � Bam! Bam! and wondered what "Big John" had run into. Just as we were about to go see, he rushed out of the woods, grabbed some more ammo, and headed back into the brush.
Frank Glaser, "Alaska's Wolf Man" who was a market hunter starting in 1915 and a government trapper/wolf control guy through 1954 said the killingest cartridge he ever used was the Swift... Except for big bears where he felt "those little pills" were just too small.
In the book he describes killing a couple bigger interior bears with the Swift and all the fun it was... The best c&c of those days versus today's monlithics would certainly not make the Swift any worse...
I was just about to mention old Glaser til I got to your post. Its amazing how the men of today are so fearful and lack confidence to do things that men did 50 years ago without even thinking about it. And men like Glaser who encountered some of the worst situations imagineable.....ALONE. That guy killed truckloads of Grizzlies with calibers that most here snub their noses at.
I know Alaskans in the interior of the state who use nothing bigger than a 22-250 for everything, and if a .243 were all I had, and it was loaded with TSX, Swifts or Partitions, I certainly would not be afraid to shoot a grizzly under good conditions - but I certainly would not want to follow up a wounded brown bear in thick cover with one like this one
I know Alaskans in the interior of the state who use nothing bigger than a 22-250 for everything, and if a .243 were all I had, and it was loaded with TSX, Swifts or Partitions, I certainly would not be afraid to shoot a grizzly under good conditions - but I certainly would not want to follow up a wounded brown bear in thick cover with one like this one
damn, i would love to hunt one of those beasts but i doubt my bank account will ever allow it.....
Wouldn't bother me ,I've shot to much with mine to ever doubt it. 100 gr Horn SP's or 100 gr NPT's and a max dose of IMR 7828, double lung the turd and let him die. If Shrappy can get'em with a 25-35 a guy is probably over gunned with a 243 and I don't doubt that he did it. It's all about shot placement.There are better choices though. Magnum Man
I'm trying to figure out why I'd even want to formulate an opinion on the subject....or concern myself with it.
Unless I were an unfortunate Alaskan, Montana,or BC native who happened to bump into a grizzly while out after deer with a 243,the only grizzly I am likely to encounter will be on a long and expensive once or twice in a lifetime hunt,while looking for one....(well maybe hunting deer in parts of bush country Alberta).In which case,whether native or visiting hunter, I'd never have a 243 in my mitts anyway.
I could never figure out the fascination people have with how far they can creep down the caliber/bullet weight spectrum while trying to kill bigger and bigger animals......it's almost like they are trying to prove something not really worth proving and to what end I have no idea.......seems there are tools for the job and common sense should dictate using something completely suitable,rather than hover on the ragged edge of adequacy.
I saw the same mindset with ultra light tackle in fishing circles,where the line tests got lighter;tippets were gossimer,and people would brandish catches of outsized fish on hair line and and tiny rods....."Look what I did! It's more sporting, and fun.." the advocates said,as they peered down their noses at naysayers.
Not for the fish it isn't(I found out),especially if it were to be released,but almost exhausted to death in the process,barely able to swim away after a long and arduous battle.
Other than mild stimulation,and that for a brief moment,what a 243 will do to a grizzly isn't of much interest.
I will hunt deer and pigs all day with a 223, maybe even a black bear. On the other hand only a fool, a daredevil or a man with nothing better would take up against a large dangerous animal as closed range with something less than his maximum shoot-able cartridge. I think the X games would be safer for the daredevil.
I'm trying to figure out why I'd even want to formulate an opinion on the subject....or concern myself with it.
Unless I were an unfortunate Alaskan, Montana,or BC native who happened to bump into a grizzly while out after deer with a 243,the only grizzly I am likely to encounter will be on a long and expensive once or twice in a lifetime hunt,while looking for one....(well maybe hunting deer in parts of bush country Alberta).In which case,whether native or visiting hunter, I'd never have a 243 in my mitts anyway.
I could never figure out the fascination people have with how far they can creep down the caliber/bullet weight spectrum while trying to kill bigger and bigger animals......it's almost like they are trying to prove something not really worth proving and to what end I have no idea.......seems there are tools for the job and common sense should dictate using something completely suitable,rather than hover on the ragged edge of adequacy.
Other than mild stimulation,and that for a brief moment,what a 243 will do to a grizzly isn't of much interest.
Good post BobinNH, I not sure that is all there is to it though. Seems like to me we see more and more posts about rationalizing small rifle use because someones 7 year old who just has to go hunting can't tolerate anymore recoil. Yeah, I don't get that either but you read all the time about people trying to get their single digit aged kid with a small rifle that is marginal out to kill their 1 st deer.Must be part of the more money than sense syndrome or the " my kid is special crowd" . Seems to me kids need to wait until they can handle and shoot well enuf with an adequate cartridge than to get them an outfit chambered for a small cartridge that only a really good shot can make work under ideal circumstances. Who knows, flame away. Magnum Man '
First off when you look at the pic of the brown bear up above I hope that's not what you guys are imagining when you think Grizzly, cuz they are two very different animals. For interior Alaska anyway Grizzly bears are on average not all that big. I have seen over a half dozen dead grizzlies and none of them were as big or much bigger than the biggest black bears we have killed. Have I seen big grizzlies well yeah but even they werent all that big, nothing like the bears I have seen on Kodiak or the Pen. I have chased dozens and dozens of grizzlies with a bow where you are inside 60 yards of them, and have seen and bumped into quite a few while sheep hunting and I think I have only gotten close to 1 bear that I would say was pushing 8 ft and say 500 lbs, the average was between 6-7 ft and no more than 400 lbs. There is this imaginary vision of huge vicious grizzlies and I just haven't seen any of them. Now when you get closer to the saltwater and the bears begin to grow to true big bear sizes they are disproportionately bigger. I think these which caliber is the best or will work on x or y threads for many are a chance for some to share real world experience and for some to express their imaginations, in the end there is no right or wrong IMO.
I'm trying to figure out why I'd even want to formulate an opinion on the subject....or concern myself with it.
Unless I were an unfortunate Alaskan, Montana,or BC native who happened to bump into a grizzly while out after deer with a 243,the only grizzly I am likely to encounter will be on a long and expensive once or twice in a lifetime hunt,while looking for one....(well maybe hunting deer in parts of bush country Alberta).In which case,whether native or visiting hunter, I'd never have a 243 in my mitts anyway.
I could never figure out the fascination people have with how far they can creep down the caliber/bullet weight spectrum while trying to kill bigger and bigger animals......it's almost like they are trying to prove something not really worth proving and to what end I have no idea.......seems there are tools for the job and common sense should dictate using something completely suitable,rather than hover on the ragged edge of adequacy.
I saw the same mindset with ultra light tackle in fishing circles,where the line tests got lighter;tippets were gossimer,and people would brandish catches of outsized fish on hair line and and tiny rods....."Look what I did! It's more sporting, and fun.." the advocates said,as they peered down their noses at naysayers.
Not for the fish it isn't(I found out),especially if it were to be released,but almost exhausted to death in the process,barely able to swim away after a long and arduous battle.
Other than mild stimulation,and that for a brief moment,what a 243 will do to a grizzly isn't of much interest.
First off when you look at the pic of the brown bear up above I hope that's not what you guys are imagining when you think Grizzly, cuz they are two very different animals. For interior Alaska anyway Grizzly bears are on average not all that big. I have seen over a half dozen dead grizzlies and none of them were as big or much bigger than the biggest black bears we have killed. Have I seen big grizzlies well yeah but even they werent all that big, nothing like the bears I have seen on Kodiak or the Pen. I have chased dozens and dozens of grizzlies with a bow where you are inside 60 yards of them, and have seen and bumped into quite a few while sheep hunting and I think I have only gotten close to 1 bear that I would say was pushing 8 ft and say 500 lbs, the average was between 6-7 ft and no more than 400 lbs. There is this imaginary vision of huge vicious grizzlies and I just haven't seen any of them. Now when you get closer to the saltwater and the bears begin to grow to true big bear sizes they are disproportionately bigger. I think these which caliber is the best or will work on x or y threads for many are a chance for some to share real world experience and for some to express their imaginations, in the end there is no right or wrong IMO.
true most interior griz are not that big but some are.....this one was hit by a pickup outside Lincoln Montana.....just over 800 pounds....granted its an exceptional animal outside the norm....
First off when you look at the pic of the brown bear up above I hope that's not what you guys are imagining when you think Grizzly, cuz they are two very different animals. For interior Alaska anyway Grizzly bears are on average not all that big. I have seen over a half dozen dead grizzlies and none of them were as big or much bigger than the biggest black bears we have killed. Have I seen big grizzlies well yeah but even they werent all that big, nothing like the bears I have seen on Kodiak or the Pen. I have chased dozens and dozens of grizzlies with a bow where you are inside 60 yards of them, and have seen and bumped into quite a few while sheep hunting and I think I have only gotten close to 1 bear that I would say was pushing 8 ft and say 500 lbs, the average was between 6-7 ft and no more than 400 lbs. There is this imaginary vision of huge vicious grizzlies and I just haven't seen any of them. Now when you get closer to the saltwater and the bears begin to grow to true big bear sizes they are disproportionately bigger. I think these which caliber is the best or will work on x or y threads for many are a chance for some to share real world experience and for some to express their imaginations, in the end there is no right or wrong IMO.
true most interior griz are not that big but some are.....this one was hit by a pickup outside Lincoln Montana.....just over 800 pounds....granted its an exceptional animal outside the norm....
I would`nt be afraid of that Bear as much as the guy who lifted him on the back of that truck.
Oh I know theres some big ones out there but the chances of an old mature bear messing with anyone are pretty slim, they don't get big and old by being stupid. Most of the bears that cause problems are younger and much smaller than 800 lbs. This is a 6ft ish sow that charged my neighbor and was killed by his 30-06 at about 20 yards , she wasn't young either and wasn't much more than 300 lbs. This is the average size bear for interior Alaska.
Oh I know theres some big ones out there but the chances of an old mature bear messing with anyone are pretty slim, they don't get big and old by being stupid. Most of the bears that cause problems are younger and much smaller than 800 lbs. This is a 6ft ish sow that charged my neighbor and was killed by his 30-06 at about 20 yards , she wasn't young either and wasn't much more than 300 lbs. This is the average size bear for interior Alaska.
i agree with you 100%, just like dragging out that photo cause it surprised the chit out of the experts that there was even one that big in the state....
An even bigger grizzly was trapped by Montana FWP biologists about 10 years before along the Rocky Mountain Front. He was 20-something years old and bottomed out their portable 800-pound scale IN THE SPRING. They figured it would easily top 1000 in the fall, and had never been trapped before, or gone after any livestock--proving once again that really big, old bears don't get big and old by causing trouble among humans.
An even bigger grizzly was trapped by Montana FWP biologists about 10 years before along the Rocky Mountain Front. He was 20-something years old and bottomed out their portable 800-pound scale IN THE SPRING. They figured it would easily top 1000 in the fall, and had never been trapped before, or gone after any livestock--proving once again that really big, old bears don't get big and old by causing trouble among humans.
i completely missed that one, just remember a number of biologists surprised at the size of the Lincoln bear....
I have a folder full of grizzly bear stuff, and the story about the Front bear is in there. You probably missed it because you were in your early teens at the time.
Oh I know theres some big ones out there but the chances of an old mature bear messing with anyone are pretty slim, they don't get big and old by being stupid. Most of the bears that cause problems are younger and much smaller than 800 lbs. This is a 6ft ish sow that charged my neighbor and was killed by his 30-06 at about 20 yards , she wasn't young either and wasn't much more than 300 lbs. This is the average size bear for interior Alaska.
These posts by "AC" pretty much show the situation as it exists now in BC, with our growing Grizzly population. I have had maybe 60 encounters with these bears since my first in spring, 1956, and while the largest I have ever seen was in 1974, in the West Kootenays, even it was maybe 700-800 lbs, and this animal was MUCH larger than any other, even northern BC coastal specimens I have seen.
It seems to me, that IF one always carries a reasonable rifle when hunting in BC or AK or even where Grizzlies exist, but, are not numerous, as in Alberta or Montana,(relatively), there is really NO issue. If, I am hunting, as I usually do, in Grizzly country, I simply carry one of my .338WM-250NP rigs, or one of my 9,3-286NP rigs and am content with my "firepower" for that situation.
I am buying an "ultralight" PF (horrors!) Remmy Mod. 7 sts 7-08 for trying to do some backpack hunts I have wanted to for some years. I am no longer "young" and my injured legs are getting worse, so, I am cutting weight, training and hope that this will all make it possible for me to continue this hunting which I love.
Will THIS be a "Grizzly buster" if attacked in my backpack camp....wellllll, I am going to also carry some bearspray as I have asked and will take the advice of one here and some others whom I regard as true experts on Grizzlies and the combo SHOULD work....the .243, well, I ain't THAT "brave"........
An even bigger grizzly was trapped by Montana FWP biologists about 10 years before along the Rocky Mountain Front. He was 20-something years old and bottomed out their portable 800-pound scale IN THE SPRING. They figured it would easily top 1000 in the fall, and had never been trapped before, or gone after any livestock--proving once again that really big, old bears don't get big and old by causing trouble among humans.
JB (and any other Montana guys) -- how many times have you actually crossed paths or even spotted a grizzly while afield? I know you and several others have spent lots of time in grizzly country over the years.
IMO, even spotting a grizzly would be quite an experience. We don't have many in KY! I'm asking about Montana spottings. Just curious...
An even bigger grizzly was trapped by Montana FWP biologists about 10 years before along the Rocky Mountain Front. He was 20-something years old and bottomed out their portable 800-pound scale IN THE SPRING. They figured it would easily top 1000 in the fall, and had never been trapped before, or gone after any livestock--proving once again that really big, old bears don't get big and old by causing trouble among humans.
JB (and any other Montana guys) -- how many times have you actually crossed paths or even spotted a grizzly while afield? I know you and several others have spent lots of time in grizzly country over the years.
IMO, even spotting a grizzly would be quite an experience. We don't have many in KY! I'm asking about Montana spottings. Just curious...
ive seen one at long distance but i dont live in grizzly country and only hike in it maybe twice a year on average.....dont even have black bears where i live....guys like MD, ingwe and Dober that live and do a alot of hiking on that side of the state would know much better how thick they are on the ground....
First off when you look at the pic of the brown bear up above I hope that's not what you guys are imagining when you think Grizzly, cuz they are two very different animals. For interior Alaska anyway Grizzly bears are on average not all that big. I have seen over a half dozen dead grizzlies and none of them were as big or much bigger than the biggest black bears we have killed. Have I seen big grizzlies well yeah but even they werent all that big, nothing like the bears I have seen on Kodiak or the Pen. I have chased dozens and dozens of grizzlies with a bow where you are inside 60 yards of them, and have seen and bumped into quite a few while sheep hunting and I think I have only gotten close to 1 bear that I would say was pushing 8 ft and say 500 lbs, the average was between 6-7 ft and no more than 400 lbs. There is this imaginary vision of huge vicious grizzlies and I just haven't seen any of them. Now when you get closer to the saltwater and the bears begin to grow to true big bear sizes they are disproportionately bigger. I think these which caliber is the best or will work on x or y threads for many are a chance for some to share real world experience and for some to express their imaginations, in the end there is no right or wrong IMO.
true most interior griz are not that big but some are.....this one was hit by a pickup outside Lincoln Montana.....just over 800 pounds....granted its an exceptional animal outside the norm....
So what size pickup is the right size for griz? Do we need a American made 1 ton or can a grix be taken with an old datsun pickup?
I live in TN but have a friend that lives up the road from Dober a Lil piece(he was here this weekend)...I have been out with him a few times and on a pack in fishing trip we did we was able to see a mamma Griz and her cub. My horse sorta looked to our right like he noticed something. They was about 100 yards or so. They looked at us about as long as any other animal and ran off. Seemed just as leery as any other animal I've been around?
I kinda forget where this was but I remember starting at a scape goat trail head and riding into the bob. Words like south fork of the flat head was mentioned.
So what size pickup is the right size for griz? Do we need a American made 1 ton or can a grix be taken with an old datsun pickup?
A 95 Tahoe nearly worked for me.
I was headed up over Beartooth Pass towards Cooke City to look for an unlimited Bighorn several years ago, late at night. Lo and behold there was a Grizz trotting down the highway in front of me. He kept this up for a hundred yards or so, seeming loathe to abandon his path. Of course he took off before I could procure a camera.
Good thing I was headed up the switchbacks really slow. I don't know what I would've done had I run over him, and got stuck on top of him, especially if he was still full of snarls. Would've been interesting for sure.
I don't know how many grizzlies I've seen in Montana over the years, but the majority were seen In Glacier National Park.
Have run into a few when out hunting, especially in the spring when black bear hunting. In fact came around a bend in a trail one evening while spring black bear hunting, to find a big boar maybe 20 yards away, grazing away in a small clearing on the trail. He picked his head up and looked at me and my companion, and we slowly backed up the way we'd come. Pretty soon we heard him moving off uphill, and continued on our way.
Outside of the Glacier Park have seen far more tracks than grizzlies--though sometimes the tracks were in camp, made during the night. In fact in one camp had two separate bears (a big one and a middle-sized one) coming in to investigate each night. They didn't cause any trouble, though.
Probably the closest I've had to a serious encounter was when pheasant hunting on the Flathead Indian Reservation north of Missoula 25 years ago. Grizzlies often come out of the Mission Mountains on the eastern edge of the rez and end up in the creekbottom brush and timber out in the valley--which is also often where the good pheasant hunting is. Was hunting the edge of some creekbottom timber with my Lab one time, when he suddenly came running back to me, looking over his shoulder with the hair on his back standing up. About that time I noticed some bear tracks, with very long claw marks in front of the pads. A few bird hunters have had serious encounters with grizzlies in that country, including at least one getting mauled, so we decided to hunt elsewhere!
A lot of it depends on the part of the state where you're hunting. Right around where I've lived for the past 23 years, grizzlies have only been around for the past few years, after a long absence. I haven't seen any yet, but have seen one pack of wolves, and the wolves haven't been around as long as the grizzlies.
Montana hunters tend to run into more grizzlies around the fringe of Yellowstone and Glacier Parks and in the Bob Marshall Wilderness complex than the rest of the mountainous western third of the state. In fact the encounter with the boar while black bear hunting was in the Bob, and the camp where the bears came visiting each night was in the Great Bear Wilderness, a smaller area on the edge of the Bob. But grizzlies are showing up in more parts of the state as their population expands.
I saw two separate grizzly bears this spring down by the front. The first one was on a trail rounding a curve not unlike what Mule Deer described above. He turned and hauled ass and I would say he was about fifty yards from us. BillyGoatGruff was with me (of course.)
The second one was probably about 150yds away when we saw him and we were about 4 or 5 miles from the previous encounter. He was running right toward us which caused me to hide behind BGG. But I don't believe he ever knew we were there because as soon as he was in line with our scent cone, he turned 90 degrees and ran. I was able to snap a pic of him (or her?) running. I would guess him at about 200yds when I snapped this.
I've seen a bunch more in Glacier but I don't really count those. They were all from considerable distance.
I'm not a native of Montana, and you are correct. They are really cool to see in the wild.
An even bigger grizzly was trapped by Montana FWP biologists about 10 years before along the Rocky Mountain Front. He was 20-something years old and bottomed out their portable 800-pound scale IN THE SPRING. They figured it would easily top 1000 in the fall, and had never been trapped before, or gone after any livestock--proving once again that really big, old bears don't get big and old by causing trouble among humans.
JB (and any other Montana guys) -- how many times have you actually crossed paths or even spotted a grizzly while afield? I know you and several others have spent lots of time in grizzly country over the years.
IMO, even spotting a grizzly would be quite an experience. We don't have many in KY! I'm asking about Montana spottings. Just curious...
21 grizzlies feeding in a wheat stubble field west of Dupuyer while I was archery elk hunting in 2006
Thanks for the replies. I visit Montana yearly to bust a few prairie dogs, but have not been on foot much in bear country. We've driven through the right country, but we've yet to see a bear there (or even the Yellowstone area) of any kind -- black or griz. I know there are bunches. I've just not been in the right place at the right time.
Maybe someday they'll have to open season back up and I'll see a few pictures of you guys posing behind a griz...
Maybe it's just me but unless I had a Guide backing me up I'd carry my 9.3x62 rifle because it's the biggest caliber that I can shoot accurately. I've no doubt that a Grizzly will die from a 243 wound. I just prefer I don't die first. But I've never hunted a Grizzly so this isn't a decision based on experience.
So this Frank Glasser who started hunting in 1915 through 1954 used a 220 swift which was invent in 1935 to hunt grizzlies instead of a 375 h&h invented in 1912? Even picked it over the 30-06?
So this Frank Glasser who started hunting in 1915 through 1954 used a 220 swift which was invent in 1935 to hunt grizzlies instead of a 375 h&h invented in 1912? Even picked it over the 30-06?
Must of grown them stupid and lucky back then
I bet there were lots of inexpensive Holland & Holland rifles floating around the bush in those days
Once again, another thread that I'm amazed has gone on so long, especially since the original poster was obviously trolling.
I've been reading it since the beginning and NOBODY has advocated the .243 as the ideal grizzly round, though a few have said they wouldn't stay home if they suddenly got a chance to hunt grizzly and a .243 the only rifle they had.
Apparently there are lot of people in the world who like to get upset when something upsets their view of the universe, whether theorertical or real. But that's apparently been the state of humans since they moved out of caves, and maybe before.
Of course, a lot of the posters never read beyond the header before responding, which has apparently been the state of humans since Al Gore invented the Internet.
Heck I never even commented regarding the caliber in question, I just cant help but comment when guys on here draw this picture of Huge Grizzly bears hiding behind every tree just a waiting for a hunter to walk by that cant be killed with anything smaller than a Abrams tank .
First off when you look at the pic of the brown bear up above I hope that's not what you guys are imagining when you think Grizzly, cuz they are two very different animals. For interior Alaska anyway Grizzly bears are on average not all that big. I have seen over a half dozen dead grizzlies and none of them were as big or much bigger than the biggest black bears we have killed. Have I seen big grizzlies well yeah but even they werent all that big, nothing like the bears I have seen on Kodiak or the Pen. I have chased dozens and dozens of grizzlies with a bow where you are inside 60 yards of them, and have seen and bumped into quite a few while sheep hunting and I think I have only gotten close to 1 bear that I would say was pushing 8 ft and say 500 lbs, the average was between 6-7 ft and no more than 400 lbs. There is this imaginary vision of huge vicious grizzlies and I just haven't seen any of them. Now when you get closer to the saltwater and the bears begin to grow to true big bear sizes they are disproportionately bigger. I think these which caliber is the best or will work on x or y threads for many are a chance for some to share real world experience and for some to express their imaginations, in the end there is no right or wrong IMO.
true most interior griz are not that big but some are.....this one was hit by a pickup outside Lincoln Montana.....just over 800 pounds....granted its an exceptional animal outside the norm....
What an impressive set of claws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So this Frank Glasser who started hunting in 1915 through 1954 used a 220 swift which was invent in 1935 to hunt grizzlies instead of a 375 h&h invented in 1912? Even picked it over the 30-06?
Must of grown them stupid and lucky back then
Just eactly how do you suppose an individual gets the experience to support a statement like Frank Glaser's? Should he only shoot stuff with really large calibers to determine the Swift was the right medicine? Maybe limit himself to the 06?
He hunted for a long time in tough country and developed an opinion based on a tremendous number of trigger pulls.
So this Frank Glasser who started hunting in 1915 through 1954 used a 220 swift which was invent in 1935 to hunt grizzlies instead of a 375 h&h invented in 1912? Even picked it over the 30-06?
Must of grown them stupid and lucky back then
Maybe the era has nothing to do with it. I don't recall seeing any dead grizzly pics, but a well-known poster here has shared a lot of pics from some pretty wild country that I assume has grizzlies which he took while carrying a 220 Swift...
The largest grizzly shot in the Peace Country of BC was with a 243.Terry's father was hunting moose over a lick and the grizzly was hunting him. He turned and got the grizzly in the neck.
Okay, the OP said he tossed the topic out because he was bored. I guess that does qualify as a troll. But there are a lot worse topics than bears and firearms. I don’t think I want to know someone who can’t get a lot of entertainment and maybe some enlightenment from a bear thread.
When I was a young man (I’m eighty now) a along time ago, I spent quite a bit of time working and living in sometimes very close proximity to brown bears out on the Alaskan Peninsula. Never shot one, never had any desire to shoot one, but always found them extremely interesting. Had the stuffing scared out of me a couple times to add to the interest/excitement.
Loved to hear the old-timers tell bear stories. They ranked right up there with scary bush plane stories for bunkhouse entertainment. Anyway, maybe it’s just me, but I found this old thread very entertaining. Always love discussions of bears and bear guns.
FWIW, from a guy whose never killed a bear, I would want a partner or guide backing me up if I only had a .243. And I wouldn’t want that light a cartridge for sloshing around on salmon streams or thick brush. I came to favor a Remington pump in ‘06 for when bears were expected up close. Grizzly’s may be a lot smaller than brown bear, but from what the more experienced say, probably more truculent. A .243 would be probably be just fine for an unsuspecting bear seen at a distance, but up close and personal, I’d want something with a bit more poop.
Great thread, great fun, glad to see it resurrected.
Often when I was stationed in Kodiak, I'd go afield hunting for Blacktails armed with nothing but a 243. It'd be stoked with 100 grain Partitions. I had confidence that they'd discourage a bear if needed. Glad I never had to find out.
I worked/hunted with a guy that got in a deal, down in a gorge one time, bumping mama griz and 2 year old twin cubs. They were trying to post-haste exit the gorge, the only way out - a span of 20 feet or so. He was in it....
Had 10 rounds with him for his .243, and had to climb back up to the top of the hill to get more from his 3-wheeler to finish the last wounded bear still alive.
He was still pale 2 weeks later.
I helped butcher the meat, which proved inedible. They had been heavy into the wild leeks or onions. Not even my saltwater aquarium crab and starfish would eat it. The crab actively spit it out, the starfish worked it up an arm to it's mouth, dropped it, and crawled into the farthest away corner, which was rather funny.
I have never had any desire (nor been forced) to shoot a griz or brown bear in 55 years up here, but I'd certainly choose something a bit heavier than .243 if I had the choice.
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
I've been reading on some threads about how the .243 Win. is a better cartridge than a 25-06 and that a 25-06 with 120 grain bullets is as effective as a .270 Win. I've also read about how effective the .270 can be on grizzly bears. We all know that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .270 Win. and a 30-06 and the 30-06 is a supreme grizzly bear cartridge.
Ergo, the .243 Win is as effective as a 30-06, especially with the new magic bullets, and is a grizzly killer extraordinaire.
Sorry, I'm bored.
In my opinion it's more effective than the 44 mag. Food for thought and my flame suit is on
Often when I was stationed in Kodiak, I'd go afield hunting for Blacktails armed with nothing but a 243. It'd be stoked with 100 grain Partitions. I had confidence that they'd discourage a bear if needed. Glad I never had to find out.
An uncle grew up in Alaska and was on Kodiak before Alaska was a state and one year went deer hunting in late November when the bears should’ve been denned up for the winter. He was carrying his 25-06 and his friend Niles was (thankfully) carrying the big gun…a .270Win. Long story short but Rick got 3 from his 25-06 and Niles got 1 .270 into the bear before Rick started running and shooting…running and reloading thru the thick alders. Luckily Niles’ shot hit the bear in the lower spine and paralyzed its hind legs which it was dragging behind itself faster than Rick could run. Every time the bear got hung up on a tree Rick said it snapped it off with its teeth…2-4” alders snapping like pencils as Rick turned to fire. Finally Rick said F&$# it and with his last 25-06 round he stood his ground and put it between the bears eyes. The bear literally fell at his feet.
The skull still sits proudly front and center in the entryway of his house with a nice clean 25 caliber hole almost dead center between the eyes.
Rick said that after that he started carrying his 30-06 for deer on Kodiak irregardless of the time of year.
Often when I was stationed in Kodiak, I'd go afield hunting for Blacktails armed with nothing but a 243. It'd be stoked with 100 grain Partitions. I had confidence that they'd discourage a bear if needed. Glad I never had to find out.
An uncle grew up in Alaska and was on Kodiak before Alaska was a state and one year went deer hunting in late November when the bears should’ve been denned up for the winter. He was carrying his 25-06 and his friend Niles was (thankfully) carrying the big gun…a .270Win. Long story short but Rick got 3 from his 25-06 and Niles got 1 .270 into the bear before Rick started running and shooting…running and reloading thru the thick alders. Luckily Niles’ shot hit the bear in the lower spine and paralyzed its hind legs which it was dragging behind itself faster than Rick could run. Every time the bear got hung up on a tree Rick said it snapped it off with its teeth…2-4” alders snapping like pencils as Rick turned to fire. Finally Rick said F&$# it and with his last 25-06 round he stood his ground and put it between the bears eyes. The bear literally fell at his feet.
The skull still sits proudly front and center in the entryway of his house with a nice clean 25 caliber hole almost dead center between the eyes.
Rick said that after that he started carrying his 30-06 for deer on Kodiak irregardless of the time of year.
...did Rick ever trip over his enormous balls...? Lol
That’s an old one! Really stirred some schitt with it. Nice going Mr. Mule Deer!! 😂😂😂
Somewhere in there I said heck ya. My partner and I actually chased a grizz up in the Brooks Range. Me with a gay .270 and my buddy with a .243. It had trashed another hunter’s camp & equipment so we ran him out of the area.
People shot grizzlies with muzzle loaders over a century ago..........
They shot them with muzzleloaders over 200 years ago. Lewis and Clark's military exploration of the West from 1804-1806 involved a number of grizzlies shot with .50 caliber muzzleloaders. You can find plenty of information on how well that worked just by Googling, of you don't have a copy of their journals.
People shot grizzlies with muzzle loaders over a century ago..........
They shot them with muzzleloaders over 200 years ago. Lewis and Clark's military exploration of the West from 1804-1806 involved a number of grizzlies shot with .50 caliber muzzleloaders. You can find plenty of information on how well that worked just by Googling, of you don't have a copy of their journals.
A 243 wouldn't be my first choice but if you want to pay for the hunt and let me work up a good handload with Barnes TTSX bullets I'll do the trigger work. I'm betting a 100 gr TTSX put in the right place will turn any grizzly alive into a pile of meat and a rug on the wall.
I was alone and saw a large Grizzly on a heavily brushed ridge across a flooded creek about 100 yards wide, normally about 10 yards wide and easy to get across. I had a 257 Ackley and was trying to figure out if it was do-able remember thinking I was glad the creek was so high as I would have gone for it. Heavy brush and no back up would not do it if had the opportunity again. Open country and back up no issues. Dont like trailing wounded Grizzly in heavy brush, not any more it gets exciting. Prefer my 35 Whelen.
My daughter has taken a moose and caribou with the .243. Her cousin shot a moose with it as well, and I've knocked down a couple of wolves and a few caribou with it too. I love that caliber, but for larger bull moose and grizzly/brown bears, I'd be reluctant to take it. You can get some good use with that caliber in Alaska.
Often when I was stationed in Kodiak, I'd go afield hunting for Blacktails armed with nothing but a 243. It'd be stoked with 100 grain Partitions. I had confidence that they'd discourage a bear if needed. Glad I never had to find out.
An uncle grew up in Alaska and was on Kodiak before Alaska was a state and one year went deer hunting in late November when the bears should’ve been denned up for the winter. He was carrying his 25-06 and his friend Niles was (thankfully) carrying the big gun…a .270Win. Long story short but Rick got 3 from his 25-06 and Niles got 1 .270 into the bear before Rick started running and shooting…running and reloading thru the thick alders. Luckily Niles’ shot hit the bear in the lower spine and paralyzed its hind legs which it was dragging behind itself faster than Rick could run. Every time the bear got hung up on a tree Rick said it snapped it off with its teeth…2-4” alders snapping like pencils as Rick turned to fire. Finally Rick said F&$# it and with his last 25-06 round he stood his ground and put it between the bears eyes. The bear literally fell at his feet.
The skull still sits proudly front and center in the entryway of his house with a nice clean 25 caliber hole almost dead center between the eyes.
Rick said that after that he started carrying his 30-06 for deer on Kodiak irregardless of the time of year.
...did Rick ever trip over his enormous balls...? Lol
Lolol….he sure could. He’s done so much in his life but when he was a kid of 14 he took his 14 foot skiff from Shilshole in Seattle to Ketchikan. He made that run several times before he was 17. He literally grew up on the fishing boats in Alaska. My father in law told me how he was in charge of watching him onboard when Rick was only 3 or 4. The 2 of them made great money and kept a room in Fairbanks above one of the “saloons” where they’d stay for awhile and “blow off some steam”.
I’d loved to have been apart of their group back then.
I would do it if that was the only weapon I had. Bullet choice would have to be an expanding mono metal. WTS the one and only time I been around where I knew there was a grizzly bear close was in AK, a stream filled with salmon and a fresh, like really fresh tracks in a small sandbar. Those tracks looked to be the size of a dinner plate. Made the hair on my neck stand up my 325WSM Montana felt like a Daisy Red Rider in my hands.
Having just seen my first real live griz last week in Glacier, I'd consider myself an expert, by Campfire standards. Under the same circumstances that I was in, I'd certainly hunt a griz with a. 243 and a good bullet. (BTW, I was watching from the window of the truck!)
I've never shot a grizzly bear, hell the only one's I've ever seen were in zoos. I really have no reason to stick my nose in here except to comment that this thread is highly reminiscent of cartridge debates over lunch in my high school cafeteria 54 years ago. Very entertaining!
I've read enough on page 1 to convince me that there ARE crazy people in this world - ANd in the woods! I wouldn't want them in MY woods or anywheres near me - and I don't care WHO they are or the reputation THEY claim to have for themselves!
I've read enough on page 1 to convince me that there ARE crazy people in this world - ANd in the woods! I wouldn't want them in MY woods or anywheres near me - and I don't care WHO they are or the reputation THEY claim to have for themselves!
My quote: "I wouldn't want them in MY woods or anywheres near me" - the interior grizz that was claimed to "fall" to a 95 grain Partition was NOT in my woods but in open tundra where a precise shot could be made... from what range, how much time and where hit was NOT given! A 45-70 in a close encounter where I hunt is a far better choice! They're not grizz, but potentially as big, strong and as fast! And they kill moose, just like grizz!
I know a guy who deliberately took a .260 Remington to Alaska to hunt grizzly, and got a big boar with one chest shot. Can't remember the bullet, but know it wasn't a monolithic, and might even have been some sort of target bullet. But he's a professional hunter and very fine shot.
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned that Bella Twin, a Canadian woman, shot what was then the B&C record grizzly in 1953 with a .22 rimfire rifle, and she used .22 Longs, not even Long Rifles.
Twenty years ago I hunted musk ox with an Inuit guide in the Northwest Territories named David Ameganik, and he regularly killed polar bears with a .22 rimfire--though he stepped it up a notch and used a .22 Magnum (which he pronounced mag-a-num). He would sneak up within 50 yards amid jumbled ice-pack, and shoot them behind the shoulder once. He said after 10-15 minutes they'd "go to sleep." He didn't want to shoot them with his "big" rifle, a .30-30 Winchester Model 94, because the holes it made were too big, which lowered the value of the pelts.
I read an article about Bella Twin several years ago. It impressed me she did it but just goes to show the value of marksmanship and knowing how to use the rifle and cartridge you have. You forgot to mention the rifle she used was an old beat up single shot! As for the 260 on bear in Alaska, not in my future. I recently got a 260 but going to Alaska I have better medcine. Last time up there I had my 308 and loaded it with 200gr bullet's. My 30-06 I never hunted with back then, to nice and was afraid of scratching it up!
Thing about the 260, while I think it would work, I think I have better option's that will work as well. But a 243? Well if that's all you have then it's all you have and I suggest you get into position and place the bullet very carefully!
No. I carried it in fishing for salmon just in case with friends. I figure the range if needed would not be that far off. If I were actually hunting grizzly I'd have taken the 30-06 with 200gr bullet's and look for a shot maybe 100yds or even less. I have to admit carrying it fishing I did get an eye opener. Out on a bar and found a bear print. It was fricking huge!
My first trip to Alaska around 30 years ago was for fishing on Kodiak Island. Found a set of pretty fresh tracks on the muddy shore along a river. Could place both my feet in hip boots inside one of 'em and see the edges of the track all around the boots....
This is one of the front feet of the interior Alaska grizzly I took in 2009. It was a mature boar but not exceptionally large, with a hide that squared 7-1/2 feet and a 22" skull.
This is a good and well written primer on Grizzlies, in the September/October issue of RMEF “Bugle” magazine by a knowledgeable and seasoned grizzly veteran…
I know a guy who deliberately took a .260 Remington to Alaska to hunt grizzly, and got a big boar with one chest shot. Can't remember the bullet, but know it wasn't a monolithic, and might even have been some sort of target bullet. But he's a professional hunter and very fine
I believe he used an A-Frame.
I have killed 2 interior grizzly with a 6.5x284 and 135 bergers…they worked just fine though they were incidental opportunities when sheep hunting. When deliberately after grizzly I feel better with a .30 cal of some sort but am not terribly experienced with them and am a huge .243 proponent on fairly big, non dangerous critters. Though this is an old thread and made in jest, I’d still be curious to hear from someone who has actually killed a few griz with a .243 and get their thoughts on particular bullets.
Using max-power handloads is what nearly killed them.
Yep…that was my first thought when watching the video and I’m glad they discussed it at the end. Probably the worst situation for that hunt that could happen.
Jordan says to shoot them up the snout. Can't do that from a tall tree. I need to practice sneaking up real close so I can put the end of the barrel up the bear's nostril.
Works every time!
I could just imagine being attacked at 15yds of so and trying to bring up the rifle and hit the nose bouncing atound!
It seems silly but I’m one that when limited to 50 pounds and being flown out and dropped off in the middle of nowhere I only have my rifle and whatever handgun I’m carrying (G20 or S/W 69) but in those cases I have a partner with a rifle, usually on those trips my partner and I carry the same caliber which is usually a .338wm and often we’re sighted in using the same exact ammo. I’ve been the “victim” of my own stupidity or carelessness too many times not to plan for contingencies and I try to eliminate as many as I can anticipate but sometimes you just gotta say…”that’s good enough” and go hunting. I figure that if the good Lord calls me home when I’m hunting or fishing I’ll already be in his neighborhood and as “close” to Him as anywhere else I might be so I’ll go willingly. I’ve told the family to not worry about me at all on any of my solo fishing and hunting adventures and to know that I’m always right with my Lord so if I’m called “HOME” then that’s where I’ll be waiting for them! I don’t want to die on concrete or surrounded by concrete in some city…
I could see myself being in his situation since the 10+ pounds of an extra rifle can mean some extra comforts…it’s a crapshoot no matter what. I do not hot rod my reloads because what happened here is the type of mishap that keeps me awake at night. A “simple” problem can sure compound itself into a life or death situation and a blown primer can mean a terrible death at the hands of a wounded Brown Bear.
Sure as heck will never trust my life to a Remington 700. That whole situation was a comedy of errors.
I killed the grizzly in the photo posted earlier with a Remington 700, and had to shoot rapidly a couple more times even though the first shot was fatal--going through both lungs and the top of the heart. But had used that action (a stainless "short-action magnum") for close to 1000 rounds, and it had already proven itself on a couple dozen big game animals, from above the Artic Circle to dusty Texas. Oh, and I always made sure it was well-maintained.
Might also mention that Ross Seyfried, who I got to know pretty well when he was still in the gun-writing business, used a 700 .416 Remington Magnum as PH in Africa....
I've shot my 700 fast at elk escaping in fog. It was more of an excited mistake than skill, but the rifle ran like a Singer. The trigger froze up once in freezing rain, but it was fixed in the field. I think I read the extractors rarely fail if kept clean.
I'd not choose a 243win for bears, but it does make a good read :-)
I've shot my 700 fast at elk escaping in fog. It was more of an excited mistake than skill, but the rifle ran like a Singer. The trigger froze up once in freezing rain, but it was fixed in the field. I think I read the extractors rarely fail if kept clean.
The big trick with 700 extractors is to clean brass particles and other gunk from under the extractor. I do it every time I clean the barrel, which is usually every 25-50 rounds, depending on the rifle.
Sure as heck will never trust my life to a Remington 700. That whole situation was a comedy of errors.
I killed the grizzly in the photo posted earlier with a Remington 700, and had to shoot rapidly a couple more times even though the first shot was fatal--going through both lungs and the top of the heart. But had used that action (a stainless "short-action magnum") for close to 1000 rounds, and it had already proven itself on a couple dozen big game animals, from above the Artic Circle to dusty Texas. Oh, and I always made sure it was well-maintained.
Might also mention that Ross Seyfried, who I got to know pretty well when he was still in the gun-writing business, used a 700 .416 Remington Magnum as PH in Africa....
There are easy fixes to prevent a 700 bolt handle from breaking off--though I've fired over 20,000 rounds from various 700s and never had it happen.
Have also been with other shooters who fired around 80,000 rounds. Now, most of those were smaller cartridges, often 223s and similar stuff. But perhaps amazingly, have never seen a bolt come off or an extractor break. On the other hand, have seen "controlled-feed" extractors jump over the rim of fired cases and leave 'em in the chamber.
Almost anything can happen with ANY bolt-action, but have found well-maintained (and tested) push-feed actions to be very reliable. As did Ross.
The biggie is to thoroughly test 'em beforehand, and keep 'em clean.
Using max-power handloads is what nearly killed them.
Yep…that was my first thought when watching the video and I’m glad they discussed it at the end. Probably the worst situation for that hunt that could happen.
The rifle was the backup for the bow, when the bear got out of bow range they decided to take it with the rifle. I got the impression the first two hits were into vitals.
I suppose one could make the argument that a 243 with factory ammo would have been a better choice.. grins
Yet you listen to some knuckleheads here on the fire and every Remington they’ve been around has extraction issues and they are tripping over 700 handles in the woods.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Whatever.
There are easy fixes to prevent a 700 bolt handle from breaking off--though I've fired over 20,000 rounds from various 700s and never had it happen.
Have also been with other shooters who fired around 80,000 rounds. Now, most of those were smaller cartridges, often 223s and similar stuff. But perhaps amazingly, have never seen a bolt come off or an extractor break. On the other hand, have seen "controlled-feed" extractors jump over the rim of fired cases and leave 'em in the chamber.
Almost anything can happen with ANY bolt-action, but have found well-maintained (and tested) push-feed actions to be very reliable. As did Ross.
The biggie is to thoroughly test 'em beforehand, and keep 'em clean.
keep your ground gun, i'll use either a TC Encore with a 23" MGM barrel in 444 Marlin with 280gr WFN GC and Reloder 7 or a Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 with 275gr WFN GC and IMR 4895.
I know a guy who deliberately took a .260 Remington to Alaska to hunt grizzly, and got a big boar with one chest shot. Can't remember the bullet, but know it wasn't a monolithic, and might even have been some sort of target bullet. But he's a professional hunter and very fine shot.
Around the same time, that particular fella also killed a pronghorn with a .338LM.
I seem to remember an Outdoor Life writeup 10-20 years ago of an impressively tough female hunting guide in Alaska named Heidi Gutfrucht (sp?).
I vaguely remember her favoring a 25-06 as a Grizzly cartridge although she switched to a 45-70 lever gun when she was backing up clients later in her career.
The upshot of her experience, which was wide and decades long, was that most common deer cartridges could kill a Grizzly, but stopping one that was intent on killing you was an entirely different matter.
I seem to remember an Outdoor Life writeup 10-20 years ago of an impressively tough female hunting guide in Alaska named Heidi Gutfrucht (sp?).
I vaguely remember her favoring a 25-06 as a Grizzly cartridge although she switched to a 45-70 lever gun when she was backing up clients later in her career.
The upshot of her experience, which was wide and decades long, was that most common deer cartridges could kill a Grizzly, but stopping one that was intent on killing you was an entirely different matter.
BC.
Only know that because I remember her name from when I was looking at stone outfitters.
WTF I had done that one when I first started looking 15 years ago. 😬
Sure as heck will never trust my life to a Remington 700. That whole situation was a comedy of errors.
I killed the grizzly in the photo posted earlier with a Remington 700, and had to shoot rapidly a couple more times even though the first shot was fatal--going through both lungs and the top of the heart. But had used that action (a stainless "short-action magnum") for close to 1000 rounds, and it had already proven itself on a couple dozen big game animals, from above the Artic Circle to dusty Texas. Oh, and I always made sure it was well-maintained.
Might also mention that Ross Seyfried, who I got to know pretty well when he was still in the gun-writing business, used a 700 .416 Remington Magnum as PH in Africa....
I seem to remember an Outdoor Life writeup 10-20 years ago of an impressively tough female hunting guide in Alaska named Heidi Gutfrucht (sp?).
I vaguely remember her favoring a 25-06 as a Grizzly cartridge although she switched to a 45-70 lever gun when she was backing up clients later in her career.
The upshot of her experience, which was wide and decades long, was that most common deer cartridges could kill a Grizzly, but stopping one that was intent on killing you was an entirely different matter.
I met Heidi and got to talk to her quite a bit when I spent time in rifle maker D'Arcy Echols' booth at the Federation of North American Wild Sheep convention over 20 years ago. She used her .25-06 as her personal hunting rifle for everything, including grizzlies and bull moose. But she was thinking about getting a bigger rifle for grizzly back-up even then, after a couple of clients proved they couldn't shoot very well in the field, though they did OK when check-shooting their rifles before the hunt.
I seem to remember an Outdoor Life writeup 10-20 years ago of an impressively tough female hunting guide in Alaska named Heidi Gutfrucht (sp?).
I vaguely remember her favoring a 25-06 as a Grizzly cartridge although she switched to a 45-70 lever gun when she was backing up clients later in her career.
The upshot of her experience, which was wide and decades long, was that most common deer cartridges could kill a Grizzly, but stopping one that was intent on killing you was an entirely different matter.
I met Heidi and got to talk to her quite a bit when I spent time in rifle maker D'Arcy Echols' booth at the Federation of North American Wild Sheep convention over 20 years ago. She used her .25-06 as her personal hunting rifle for everything, including grizzlies and bull moose. But she was thinking about getting a bigger rifle for grizzly back-up even then, after a couple of clients proved they couldn't shoot very well in the field, though they did OK when check-shooting their rifles before the hunt.
I read a story years ago and it seems she was the one who said she didn't know why anybody would shoot those darned Partitions. Claimed they ruined too much meat.
Whoever it was did shoot a 25-06 with 120 Core-Lokts.
Lmao Better to be lucky than smart. Just like duffus in the video.
Phil wasn't lucky. He'd tested the ammo thoroughly for penetration and knew the bullets would do the job. He also knew where to shoot the bear, because he's stopped a bunch of brown bear charges during half a century of guiding.
I know a guy who deliberately took a .260 Remington to Alaska to hunt grizzly, and got a big boar with one chest shot. Can't remember the bullet, but know it wasn't a monolithic, and might even have been some sort of target bullet. But he's a professional hunter and very fine shot.
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned that Bella Twin, a Canadian woman, shot what was then the B&C record grizzly in 1953 with a .22 rimfire rifle, and she used .22 Longs, not even Long Rifles.
Twenty years ago I hunted musk ox with an Inuit guide in the Northwest Territories named David Ameganik, and he regularly killed polar bears with a .22 rimfire--though he stepped it up a notch and used a .22 Magnum (which he pronounced mag-a-num). He would sneak up within 50 yards amid jumbled ice-pack, and shoot them behind the shoulder once. He said after 10-15 minutes they'd "go to sleep." He didn't want to shoot them with his "big" rifle, a .30-30 Winchester Model 94, because the holes it made were too big, which lowered the value of the pelts.
The problem with waiting 10-15 minutes for the bear to go to sleep is what he could accomplish in that 10-15 minutes if he smelled breakfast.
Which is why the guy was careful to stalk into the wind, like you're supposed to, and hide in the crumpled ice-pack after he shot. The rimfire round didn't make much noise compared to the creaking and popping of the ice, and the bears didn't even notice the bullet hitting them very much.
At the time David was in his 50s and had killed a lot of bears. He and his wife lived in Gjoa Haven, a tiny town on an island north of the Canadian mainland, and she had a sister who lived in Rankin Inlet, another small town on Hudson's Bay. After the Arctic Ocean froze they'd take a snowmobile towing a sled with a bunch of gas cans over the ice, then head across the mainland for Rankin. They'd shoot caribou and polar bears on the way over, stowing caribou meat and gas cans periodically under rockpiles. They'd sell the bear hides in Rankin, then head back, stopping at the gas/meat caches for fuel and food.
I seem to remember an Outdoor Life writeup 10-20 years ago of an impressively tough female hunting guide in Alaska named Heidi Gutfrucht (sp?).
I vaguely remember her favoring a 25-06 as a Grizzly cartridge although she switched to a 45-70 lever gun when she was backing up clients later in her career.
The upshot of her experience, which was wide and decades long, was that most common deer cartridges could kill a Grizzly, but stopping one that was intent on killing you was an entirely different matter.
BC.
Only know that because I remember her name from when I was looking at stone outfitters.
WTF I had done that one when I first started looking 15 years ago. 😬
No kidding. I hunted moose and elk with Stone Mountain Safaris in 08 and a stone was $32k IIRC. Today that hunt is ~$70 with them (they have been sold in between).
I met Heidi and got to talk to her quite a bit when I spent time in rifle maker D'Arcy Echols' booth at the Federation of North American Wild Sheep convention over 20 years ago. She used her .25-06 as her personal hunting rifle for everything, including grizzlies and bull moose. But she was thinking about getting a bigger rifle for grizzly back-up even then, after a couple of clients proved they couldn't shoot very well in the field, though they did OK when check-shooting their rifles before the hunt.
“If you want to demonstrate your skill as a rifleman, long range precision shooting is not the way to do it. Though it has become the dominant trend in shooting, the exercise is more a validation of gear than evidence of shooting skill. To quote the great African professional hunter Philip Percival, ‘I don’t care a damn about these people who can split a pea at three hundred yards. What I want to know about is how good he is on a charging buffalo at six feet.’ Admittedly, charging buffalos and similar treacherousness are limited to safaris and rare occurrences, but mostly what Percival was saying was that he wanted to know what a man could do with a rifle while standing on his hind legs and while under stress. This, not shooting from a solid rest while using a ballistics calculator, is the mark or a real rifleman. Jeff Cooper suggested this with his Scout Rifle Concept, which was an attempt to codify the requisite skill of a true rifleman as much as it was to create a weapon that would allow the best expression of general purpose rifle application…. Cooper was a staunch advocate for the mastery of field shooting positions and placed no emphasis on extreme long range rifle application...”
I enjoyed this Richard Mann quote (quoting Philip Percival) in the most recent Rifle Loony News. He may be short-changing the whole PRS thing but, he has a point. Being the armchair grizz hunter that I am, I'd want a big nasty, fast shooting rifle but, even more I'd want Heidi backing me up with whatever she wanted - .243 or .45-70. The closest I've come to a grizz was a set of fresh tracks in the snow while backpacking above tree line in AK many years ago. Looking at that track which dwarfed my booted foot, my can of bear spray all of a sudden was alot less reassuring! I'm also, a believer in Cooper's scout rifle. I'm of the vintage that read his back page column when his go-to was a 45-70 WWG peep-sighted Co-pilot. I wouldn't feel too skeery with my .30-06 pump carbine with the right bullets for following up wounded grizz in thick stuff which is the real problem here.
I dunno why you fellas are all riled up over this. Can you put bullets where they need to go? Well, there's your answer.
Lost a bet once with a platoon Sargent who said he could kill and elephant with a M16. One shot in the temple at about 50 yards cost me a case of beer.
More to the point, I use .22 CB shorts to kill pigs.
Bella Twin used a .22 to kill a grizz some years ago.
Here's a photo of a brown bear sow I took in 2008, when Eileen and I went fishing and hunting ptarmigan with Phil, Rocky and their kids Tia and Taj at their lodge on Becharoff Lake.
Phil and Eileen and I were fishing on of the streams flowing into the lake, and if I recall correctly it was the one where he had to kill the charging boar with his 9mm. We'd been fishing a while, and seeing some bears, and Eileen was maybe 75 yards farther downstream from me and Phil.
Suddenly we heard a woman shouting from upstream--but she wasn't getting charged by a bear. Instead she was "charging" one. The first thing we saw was a good-sized sow bear emerge from the streamside brush maybe 100 yards upstream, and then a tourist woman with a point-and-shoot camera came running our, hollering at the bear: "Stop! Please stop! All I want is a picture."
The bear would pause now and then to look behind at the woman, then started loping again. It entered another streamside patch of brush 30-40 yards upstream from us, whereupon the woman quit running, apparently tuckered out, and turned back. Phil and I heard the bear moving slowly through the brush, and then it emerged about 20 feet from us, took a few steps and stopped, head pointed left but eye on us.
Phil slowly drew his revolver (as I recall a DA .357 Magnum) with his right hand, and a can of bear spray with his left. I took a couple photos with the point-and-shoot digital I carry in a shirt pocket in the field, but then quit, staying very still. We waited, and in what seemed like an hour and was maybe a minute, the bear turned and went back into the brush, where we heard continuing downstream.
Here's one of the photos, taken at about 15 feet with my little camera. Phil said later that if she'd turned her nose toward us, she was going to charge. But she didn't....
Now, that's funny: "Please stop. All I want is a picture!"
Really - the only thing to carry for bears is a .338WM.
About the 4th or 5th time, while moose hunting in thick stuff, that I stepped through a screen of brush to find about 2 gallons of steaming bear poop at my feet, I upgraded from the '06 I'd been carrying for several years.
That was over 30 years ago, and I've never had to shoot a bear.
I guess the word got around in the bruin bunch.....
I'm carrying the .260 out there until season ends in a few days, actually. Not hunting griz tho.
I imagine this thread was primarily inflammatory in nature, as the subject ‘how small can you go?’ always gathers attention.
Still, it brings to mind a friend of mine who has made a living as a hunting and fishing guide his entire life on Afognak island. His father was a seal hunter and the boys learned to ‘aim small’ from a heaving skiff. This individual uses a 325WSM as a backup rifle but prefers a 243 for all personal hunting including brown bear. And he has killed more than one with it. X, TSX, or TTSX bullets exclusively since they were introduced.
Brown Bears are different in different parts of Alaska and I believe that they are different in areas of BC and probably in the L48. I have killed Grizzlies with a 44 Rem Mag in a Ruger Super Blackhawk when I was a teenager. I have also killed them with my old pushfeed XTR 300 Win Mag. I greatly prefer the later to the former. The Brown bears and they are classed as Brown Bears in the in the Copper River Basin seemed to be very spooky and not aggressive at all unless they were injured or had something wrong with them.(starvation). They still took more for killing than the smaller Arctic grizzlies in the Kobuk River drainages.
I will never forget during I believe it was my second day in Ambler when three 13 and 14 yo boys came up river to show me a grizzly that they had killed. The big thing was the first Jurassic Park movie and the boys described that they had gone out to get a caribou and had found the bear near the river bank. They explained to me that they all jumped out of the boat and approached it like velociraptors. They each had a 10/22 rifle with extended magazines. They shot the bear a total of 109 times. They said the bear did not react to the first three or four shots except slap at them but soon realized it was a goner and tried to retreat. There was not much that could be salvaged from that bear. It probably was 350lbs and was maybe a three or four year old bear. I thought that the local hunters would get on the boys but one of the elders there told me. Bears have to be scared. So we keep them scared. The bear may have had a desire to hunt near the river but by being out there during daylight it was in a place that it shouldn't of. I later during my second year, shot a small grizzly that had been wounded with my Remington 788 in 22-250 with 50 grain corelock right behind the should. It had several severe injuries and was covered with puss and mange. One of the old ladies in the village wanted the gallblader and the sinews from the bear and I kept the claws. I had them in a jar in my cabin and they were stolen during one of the cabin breakins that would happen out there when I would go into Kotz. They took my old baikal 12 gauge shotgun but left the 22-250 because there was no place for them to get ammo. About two months later I found the shotgun propped up against the side of the cabin by the front door. The buttstock was not designed right on that shotgun and it literally kicked like someone hit you between the eyes with a two by four. A big rifle up there was a 243 winchester. Most people used 223 AR15s for everything. The old former owner of the lodge explained to me that the animals up there died more easily because of hydrostatic shock impacted the animals there more. That might be bullshit but it might also be that with so many targets of opportunity that you could get pretty close to animals.
I moved from Ambler to Nulato and it was different. People hunted along sloughs and had fish camps that were still heavily used. Grizzlies generally were not problems. They kept to themselves. Rare was it to have a bear become rogue. There were people in the villages that had the role of hunting bears who were problem bears. Nulato had areas where you might have a longer shot. Most had bigger rifles. There were many 7 Rem mags, 300s and 338 Winchester Magnums. People might also have an old Winchester 1886 in 45-70 for camp.
My guess is that if I was hunting on Afognak Island or in the ABC islands that I would probably take a larger rifle. A 458 Win checks a lot of boxes. It may not be necessary but it is comforting.
The Brown bears in each of these locations has a different relationship with humans that they interact with. The tools that people use vary with their geographic setting and the full size of the bear in that area.
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
I am not so sure I would not prefer the extra 70 grains of bullet weight and the larger frontal area the 30-30 and 32 Spl provide in this case, especially if the bear was eyeing me up for dinner.
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
Doubt it
Take a look at the Mason Leather video over on youtube where he tests the new 190 gr. Barnes .30-30 factory load. It out penetrates the 220 gr. core lokt .30-06 in ballistics gel by a bunch.
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
Doubt it
Take a look at the Mason Leather video over on youtube where he tests the new 190 gr. Barnes .30-30 factory load. It out penetrates the 220 gr. core lokt .30-06 in ballistics gel.
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
Doubt it
Take a look at the Mason Leather video over on youtube where he tests the new 190 gr. Barnes .30-30 factory load. It out penetrates the 220 gr. core lokt .30-06 in ballistics gel.
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
I am not so sure I would not prefer the extra 70 grains of bullet weight and the larger frontal area the 30-30 and 32 Spl provide in this case, especially if the bear was eyeing me up for dinner.
I know I would. I used the 30-30 all my life. On game up to Moose. I tried several times to switch to the 243 but it just kept failing to impress me so I'd go back to the 30-30 which I felt had a real edge
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
Doubt it
Take a look at the Mason Leather video over on youtube where he tests the new 190 gr. Barnes .30-30 factory load. It out penetrates the 220 gr. core lokt .30-06 in ballistics gel by a bunch.
Thanks. I just watched it. 37 inches of penetration in gelatin at 100 yards!
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
How heavy is the bullet in the 2431?
Probably too heavy like most people want to use in the 243.
If I want a 100 in a 243 or 6mm it better be fairly soft. I think the stout 100 grain bullets are why people aren't impressed with the way it kills deer.
No reason for railroad spike tough bullets on a 250# or smaller animal.
The OP might of been bored , here's some spice. The .243 wcf is not ideal for dispatching an Grizzly...but with a good bullet it is a better choice than any 30/30, .32 Special ever made. The model 94 has surely killed lots of Game, but I bet it has wounded an equal amount. If stats were kept on this the .243 vs 30/30 , the former would have a superior kill/ wound rate. I would probably use a mono bullet. There you go, folks....my little old opinion
my own experience with the 243 is that is a great groundhog rifle, but with deer or bigger, i'd say its dismal with a mono or cup-n-core. i haven't shot a 243 for 25+ years and i see no need to do so. my friend may argue with me, because the 243 Win has killed many deer for him. he has a Rem m788 in 243 Win with 100gr whatever is cheaper factory ammo. he has been killing deer up close for about 38+ years. i had a Rem 700 BDl and m7 in 243. i used a 100gr Hornady RN, 105gr Speer RN, 100gr Hornady SP, 100gr Seirra SP and 85gr Barnes X bullet. i have killed about 10 -12 deer with them and the deer were only 30-40 yards away from me. in every shot, the deer ran away me for about 50 - 100 yards. the 85gr Barnes X bullet deer would go further, 225+ yards away from me. i found out that the 85gr didn't expand, instead it was a pencil sized wound thru the lungs (behind the shoulder shot). that was the last time i ever shot a 243.
i had (well, it is now a 35/30-30) a Winchester m94 (1972) in 30-30. i haven't wounded a deer with the m94. 1 shot = 1 kill, my drill segreant would say. as a matter of fact, the deer never ran after the shot. several times the deer would drop in their tracks. a time or three the deer would go only 10-20 yards from the shot. i think you have a problem with the 30-30. i have a problem with the 243.
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
How heavy is the bullet in the 2431?
Probably too heavy like most people want to use in the 243.
If I want a 100 in a 243 or 6mm it better be fairly soft. I think the stout 100 grain bullets are why people aren't impressed with the way it kills deer.
No reason for railroad spike tough bullets on a 250# or smaller animal.
I would have to disagree. I have killed deer with 3 different 100 grain softpoints and never did I feel the bullet was too hard. 2 handloads, one using 100 gr Hornady Interlock and the other was a 100 gr Speer GS. One factory load using 100 gr Federal blue box. IMO they all worked ok. Maybe 3/4 inch exit wound on pretty much broadside shots.
They certainly do not create damage like a 270, 308 etc but you cannot expect that from a much smaller round. Yea shoot them in the lungs with an 85 gr Sierra BTHP and they drop pretty fast but I would not want to trust that bullet on a steep angling shot.
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
How heavy is the bullet in the 2431?
Probably too heavy like most people want to use in the 243.
If I want a 100 in a 243 or 6mm it better be fairly soft. I think the stout 100 grain bullets are why people aren't impressed with the way it kills deer.
No reason for railroad spike tough bullets on a 250# or smaller animal.
I would have to disagree. I have killed deer with 3 different 100 grain softpoints and never did I feel the bullet was too hard. 2 handloads, one using 100 gr Hornady Interlock and the other was a 100 gr Speer GS. One factory load using 100 gr Federal blue box. IMO they all worked ok. Maybe 3/4 inch exit wound on pretty much broadside shots.
They certainly do not create damage like a 270, 308 etc but you cannot expect that from a much smaller round. Yea shoot them in the lungs with an 85 gr Sierra BTHP and they drop pretty fast but I would not want to trust that bullet on a steep angling shot.
I once shot a doe broadside through the lungs with a 12 gauge Foster slug as she stepped out into a field 30 yards in front of me. I could see the thumb sized hole in her side gushing blood at every bound as I watched her run 250 yards across the field and die draped over the barbed wire fence on the other side. Another time I shot a doe coming straight at me square in the center of the chest from only 10 feet with a 12 gauge Brenneke slug. At the shot, I instantly saw a fist sized hole blow open in the front of her chest. She reared up on her hind legs at the impact and when she came down and her front feet hit the ground, I saw a huge gout of blood gush out of that gaping hole. She whirled and ran 50 yards before she went down. When I dressed her out I was dumbfounded as there was not a speck of heart left in her chest cavity. I went back to the spot where she stood when I shot her and there laid her entire heart on the ground in a pool of blood. I say all this to point out that I don't believe there's anything you can fire from the shoulder that will dependably put deer on the ground instantly with anything short of a shot that disrupts the brain/spine/CNS. I have shot them with big and heavy and very fast and fragile bullets that turned their innards to soup or literally blew them out on the ground and still seen them run. Folks who say this or that cartridge with this or that bullet will do it dependably either haven't shot many deer with that combination yet or are FOS.
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
How heavy is the bullet in the 2431?
Probably too heavy like most people want to use in the 243.
If I want a 100 in a 243 or 6mm it better be fairly soft. I think the stout 100 grain bullets are why people aren't impressed with the way it kills deer.
No reason for railroad spike tough bullets on a 250# or smaller animal.
I would have to disagree. I have killed deer with 3 different 100 grain softpoints and never did I feel the bullet was too hard. 2 handloads, one using 100 gr Hornady Interlock and the other was a 100 gr Speer GS. One factory load using 100 gr Federal blue box. IMO they all worked ok. Maybe 3/4 inch exit wound on pretty much broadside shots.
They certainly do not create damage like a 270, 308 etc but you cannot expect that from a much smaller round. Yea shoot them in the lungs with an 85 gr Sierra BTHP and they drop pretty fast but I would not want to trust that bullet on a steep angling shot.
I once shot a doe broadside through the lungs with a 12 gauge Foster slug as she stepped out into a field 30 yards in front of me. I could see the thumb sized hole in her side gushing blood at every bound as I watched her run 250 yards across the field and die draped over the barbed wire fence on the other side. Another time I shot a doe coming straight at me square in the center of the chest from only 10 feet with a 12 gauge Brenneke slug. At the shot, I instantly saw a fist sized hole blow open in the front of her chest. She reared up on her hind legs at the impact and when she came down and her front feet hit the ground, I saw a huge gout of blood gush out of that gaping hole. She whirled and ran 50 yards before she went down. When I dressed her out I was dumbfounded as there was not a speck of heart left in her chest cavity. I went back to the spot where she stood when I shot her and there laid her entire heart on the ground in a pool of blood. I say all this to point out that I don't believe there's anything you can fire from the shoulder that will dependably put deer on the ground instantly with anything short of a shot that disrupts the brain/spine/CNS. I have shot them with big and heavy and very fast and fragile bullets that turned their innards to soup or literally blew them out on the ground and still seen them run. Folks who say this or that cartridge with this or that bullet will do it dependably either haven't shot many deer with that combination yet or are FOS.
They can and will do some silly schitt with lung or heart shots. Pure heart shots have made the longer track jobs for me and the quartering away liver/lung/heart shots have yielded the shortest and easiest tracking jobs.
CNS are DRT right where they stand.
My .54 with a round ball has made some very short trails and I had one that I walked up on still alive, high lung shot that never touched a rib. Ended up shooting him again.
I like an exit but like blending em up on the inside really well too which is why I like a softish bullet regardless of caliber or cartridge.
I think the 243 makes a great coyote cartridge but, given a choice between the 243 and a sling shot to use on a charging bear, I think I'll take the 2431
How heavy is the bullet in the 2431?
Probably too heavy like most people want to use in the 243.
If I want a 100 in a 243 or 6mm it better be fairly soft. I think the stout 100 grain bullets are why people aren't impressed with the way it kills deer.
No reason for railroad spike tough bullets on a 250# or smaller animal.
I would have to disagree. I have killed deer with 3 different 100 grain softpoints and never did I feel the bullet was too hard. 2 handloads, one using 100 gr Hornady Interlock and the other was a 100 gr Speer GS. One factory load using 100 gr Federal blue box. IMO they all worked ok. Maybe 3/4 inch exit wound on pretty much broadside shots.
They certainly do not create damage like a 270, 308 etc but you cannot expect that from a much smaller round. Yea shoot them in the lungs with an 85 gr Sierra BTHP and they drop pretty fast but I would not want to trust that bullet on a steep angling shot.
I would consider those fairly soft. I probably should have said stout jackets/hard lead and never mentioned the 100 grain or "heavy" weight.
I have used a lot of 100 grain Sierras whether SP or BTSP and been pleased but those aren't what many consider a tough bullet. Used 3 of the Hornady BTSP on my first 3 deer I shot with a 243, acted about like the Sierras.
As far as that 85 BTHP I wasn't a fan. Not as much damage as I liked to see. Tough little bullet. Now the Sierra 85 grain SP Varminter really turns their lights out and will exit most of the time.
Me again, i am confident with the new 30/30 bullet options it is far more capable- every chambering is. Used in a model 94( or other tube fed magazines) the advantages are minimized. Used in a single shot or box fed magazine it is maximized. I stand by my original statement though, the Winchester model 94- 30/30 has wounded more Game than any other rifle/ rifle chambering in history. I own two 243 wcf's and not especially wowed by them, but I would choose either over my 30/30 for bull Elk. As well I have experience in this situation, folks
According to the WRAP (Whopping, Range And Power) formula devised by well-known ballistician, free-hunt scammer and bourbon tester B.S. Daily, the .243 Winchester with a 100-grain bullet would be adequate for grizzly bears weighing up to 327 pounds at ranges under 143 yards. If the bullet weight is dropped to 85 grains the maximum bear weight would drop to 254 pounds but the range would increase to 178 yards, due to flatter trajectory.
Of course, all of this depends on precise bullet placement, defined by B.S. as "1/3 of the way back from the grunt-hole to the fart-hole." Mr. Daily is also known for his frequent use of warm gas references.
Mule Deer,did you ever write for Saturday Night Live,if not,you should.
Okay, now inquiring minds want to know....What would the weight and range parameters be for grizzly bears using a .257 Roberts with 100 grain monometal bullets? With 117 grain cup-and-core bullets? And your choice of propellant and charge weight, of course.
I've been reading on some threads about how the .243 Win. is a better cartridge than a 25-06 and that a 25-06 with 120 grain bullets is as effective as a .270 Win. I've also read about how effective the .270 can be on grizzly bears. We all know that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between a .270 Win. and a 30-06 and the 30-06 is a supreme grizzly bear cartridge.
Ergo, the .243 Win is as effective as a 30-06, especially with the new magic bullets, and is a grizzly killer extraordinaire.
Sorry, I'm bored.
Overkill. Recommend a 22-250 with premium bullets.
The 243 wouldn't be my first choice. Will it work? Yes. I'd want a good penetrating bullet and not terribly tight quarters. I'll take the '06 over the 270 any day for griz. Especially if using C&C bullets. The mono's certainly give the smaller calibers/lighter bullets a boost in performance on heavier/tougher critters. As always, placement trumps everything else.
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this one isn't too far off.![[Linked Image]](http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/Canazes9/223AI%20-%202/cute-smiley-tongue-in-cheek-emoticon_zps871d76e8.gif)
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my 325WSM Montana felt like a Daisy Red Rider in my hands.
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![[Linked Image from ammoland.com]](https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/CIL-22-Long-1950-1956-Bella-Twin.jpg)
![[Linked Image from ammoland.com]](https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Bella-Twin-is-shown-with-the-hide-from-the-world-record-grizzly-bear.jpg)
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