Some prefer Fixed,i.e.6X,scopes to Higher (Variable) X scopes.
I'm going to post 2 GOOD reasons for Higher/Variable X scopes.
This guy looks more than just legal to the naked eye or even at modest hunting ranges. However.....at some distance AND broadside
it's a LITTLE different. Those eyeguards can be ALMOST impossible to see.

I killed this guy Dec 4, 2014 at less than 200 yds. I had NO trouble seeing plenty antlers with the naked eye BUT broadside it was another story. In Ark. we have a 3 pt on 1 side rule to be legal.

I HAD to crank my scope UP above 8 X to see 1 eyeguard. He weighed 165 +lbs. He was completely healthy but had run ALL his fat off during the rut. IF you look at his LONG face and the mass in his antlers...he was an older buck.

With a 4 or 6 X scope I would have HAD to pass on him.

This next pic I have already posted in previous yrs but it was the SAME situation. This guy was pushing a doe in a cutover and I had to watch him for several minutes before I could see 1 eyeguard.


This guy weighed 170 something lbs. and at 389 yds you NEED some REAL glass!!!

As you can tell there is no problem in seeing and shooting a legal buck with 4X or 6X scopes. But there ARE times when you need HIGHER magnification to determine a LEGAL buck even when he has PLENTY horn!

i PREFER 4-12X or even 6-18X, although I don't own the latter. Also I have had ONLY 1 variable to puke. It was a 1.5-4X AND I put it on EVERY heavy kicker I played with for a number of years.

Good point, no pun intended. Completely agree.

......or you could just use binoculars to look at things instead of pointing your rifle at them.

CR

Yep.

If you have time to fiddle with scope magnification, or watch the buck chase a doe for several minutes, you have time to use binos.

Some might say that if he's inside 400 yards and it takes 20x to see if he's got 3 points on a side ...

Nice forked horns though-Muddy

I absolutely agree! Most of PA, where, we hunt, went to the same 3pt-on-one-side rule about 10 years ago. In thick timber there are many instances when you only get a quick look at a buck at 100-200 yards. You may only have a couple of seconds to judge the antlers and shoot. We previously used 2-7x scopes and have switched to 3-9x because we had to let so many bucks with lots of antlers walk because we just couldn't be sure at lower magnification.

Yep, I thought that was why we carried binos. I get real worried when I see people using their rifle to glass stuff.

There's a difference between glassing and looking at a deer that's already been identified.

Here is one for ya.

Once, when I was guiding hunters. I had this fella from PA, I was checking out his equipment. I said to him, that's a heck of a scope you have there. (hunter) I like a lot of magnification. "It makes the game closer" (me) Oh really, I didn't know that. (hunter) You should.

Life is such.

Big glass doesn't fit in a saddle scabbard very well.

Okay fellas, I'm going to be nice.
I'll not say how your statements show your ignorance and inexperience at WT hunting in the South or any thicker vegetation. I'll not mention how little time we have MOST of the time in an encounter with a WT buck.

I'll not mention how it takes longer to focus binos than to TWIST the adjustment ring on a variable scope.

Oh! the horror of pointing a rifle at a deer "DURING" deer season!!

WT hunting in many places is quite different than goat hunting on the prairie.

Some things can only be learned thru experience with WT in typical WT habitat.

Please give me credit, I could have been much more critical.

Spot ON!!!

It's easy to distinguish them "that has".....from
them "that has not!"



This man has B T D T !!!

You had several minutes to watch him ? A good 6X rifle scope can show me .30 caliber bullet holes at 200 yds. With a decent 8X binocular, you'd not only see them easily, if you used them right, you'd have had more time to look him over.
I've done lots of hunting in heavy cover for our Blacktails. Here he has to have at least two points in the upper 2/3's of one antler to be legal. You wouldn't believe how many spikes and tiny forked horn bucks we have in some herds.
I've used everything from 2.5-4X B&L's back in the 50's to the 6.5-20X40 Leupold. Trust me, a decent 8-10X binocular beats them all for such jobs. E

Plus a hundert gazillion!

Conversely, after years of nothing but fixed 6x's my last purchase was a 3.5x10 and I have fallen in love with staying well below 6x. Field of view is more of a benefit than higher mag in my woods. All about correct application.

Still love my fixed 6x's but there is room for both in my safe.


Others in your area agree with your logic and it is obviously paying off so by all means stick with it.

Really nice buck. Good shot. Congrats.

This is BS in the type of hunting the OP is talking about. Those bucks are dipping in and out of cover, you better be in the scope once the deer is spotted and ready to shoot when legality is realized or you can kiss that one good by.

Amen!

I just went through my safes of guns and I did find a fixed power K-3 on my single shot 22. Other than that I don't own a fixed power scope. I am happy for all you 4x and 6X users, but I have plenty of power on some of my scopes and more power on all of the rest.

I haven't ever found a situation where a variable was a disadvantage. I have shot 10's of thousands of rounds through variables and only had 2 issues with one particular scope. I haven't found the weak link to a variable and will continue to hunt and kill lots of stuff with them...

Guess I should have used the binos on these first and then shouldered the rifle.






WTH is that?



Or this:



Or this????




Hmmmm????

For further debate:



Didn't have time for binos on this fellow, but I was really sure he was a Deer.



This was in the backyard, but I think it was a Deer and if it was a legal Buck then Binos would have meant a lost opportunity.

Oh wait it was running, shouldn't shoot anyway.



Just for conversation:



Friend didn't use binos on this fellow either. I'll remind him next time.

If it's a question about legality, I'll use binos every time. 2 eyes trump one.

When the day comes that my life will suddenly end if I miss an opportunity at 3x2, I'll take up golf.

So jwall what did you use to dispatch those deer?

Kinda agree on the first point when distance comes into making the decision. Totally agree on the second.

I understand putting a scope on a deer and following him through the brush, whatever, till a shot presents itself.

I don't live in a place, nor have I, that has point restrictions. If I HAD to decide if something was legal or not, I'll always use binos.

I can PROMISE you that 'here' you would NOT get to shoot more than to shoot.

We all can't be great hunters.

Bangeye - the second buck pictured was shot either in 09 or 10. I used a 300 WM with 180 gr bullet

The buck shot this Dec, I used my Tikka 270 Win.

I also used YOUR/my 6.5x55 this year on a doe. Bang flop! I also killed 1 or 2 last yr. with the Swede.

Man, and I thought this thread would go so smooth....

I meant no criticism. We must learn to adapt to conditions/circumstances.

And if your own eyes made the decision for you?

I had to use binos on this guy due to him being out a bit and lighting.



I didn't on this guy, again due to distance-close-and lighting.



My beef is with those who say one must always use binos first.

Just because we disagree does not mean things are not going smooth. I've gained more from this forum than I've given.

At one time I would have argued .223's were inadequate for Deer. However, I saw enough people use them successfully that I thought it best to shut up and read. Learned I was wrong.

Sure, if they are close enough to use my eyes, that works too. I assumed that was obvious.

I'd rather a peep sighted rifle and first rate binos, then a rifle with 6-18x and no binos. By a goodly margin.

Used a peep last year on a rifle and really enjoyed the challenge that came with eyes that no longer focus on the sights that well. Had more than a little confidence out to 75yards or so. Meant to upgrade the system for this year but never did.

Open to suggestions on a better brand of peeps that may make it easier and I still would be satisfied with 75 and under.

Addition: Personal thoughts are that if one has a rifle that fits like a good shotgun, and one has their mount down, that you could pretty much ignore the rear sight and shoot off the front bead for stuff relatively close.

Right or wrong?

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I've seen simple tasks befuddle some people and others become so stuck in a particular way that their head would explode if they had to do it slightly differently.

I've lived in a LOT of places and the constant has always been the 'That won't work here'. Sometimes are obviously right, but sometimes not.

All I'm saying is there are different ways, just as you are saying.

Don't know what you used nor on what?

I've gathered one mistake often made is to use too small an aperture on a hunting rifle.

Point restrictions on deer are proven NOT to work for quality management. Why do states continue such a stupid attempt at controlling hunters and limiting their opportunities?

Pre 64 Model 70. Lyman rear. Front I think was a Lyman also that I had to buy that was a little higher than the original. The rifle was shooting high with the original and I had it turned all the way down.

Apertures make good sense on a pre-64, brings them down to a nice manageable 9 1/2 pounds...

XS sights are good. I like the biggest hole and their front sight with the white line.

https://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8501

I've seen people spend too much time trying to concentrate on the hole instead of the front sight. Forget about the hole being there, the eyes will line that up.

I watched a guy fumble [bleep] one and asked 'What the hell are you doing'

He said he was trying to make sure the front sight was exactly in the center of the aperture. Just let the eye take care of that, it will do it naturally.

That said, don't underestimate opens either. I've been hunting them quite a bit of late, they work just as well.

Thanks,

I called them and told them it was a pre 64 Model 70, but they insisted I send them the hole spacing distance for the rear. Never got around to doing it.

Different hole spacing with them, though the majority are .86 I believe.

If you had time to take a dang picture......you had time to look through your binoculars! LOL.

The model 70 pre 64 standards definitely handle better with open sights. Still a leetle heavy, but the improvement in handling is easily felt.

No [bleep], but not the point.

Unless you've gleaned more information somehow from the OP......he doesn't say that. On one, he said he had to turn his scope up with deer at 200 yards - so I gather that he had more time than you put on.

The other, he said he watched it for several minutes. More time than you put on. Every situation is different. But it sounded to me and several others that he had time.

So go ahead and call "BS".......but from what I read and re-read, he had time.

In his situation, it seems he most certainly did.

All situations are different. But the OP said it was a question of legality. AND it seems that he would have had time to use binocs to make sure it was legal. Not criticizing and NEVER said that all hunters absolutely have to use their binoculars before they shoulder their rifle and shoot. That's absurd to the one hundert gazillionth degree.

Was tongue in [bleep] cheek. Damn!

Missed it.

Guys, I don't know JWP, never talked or PMd him or anything else. He and I must hunt in similar WT habitat. His description is SPOT ON for the majority of my deer hunting.

Seriously....most of the time I don't have time to use binos AND then get a shot.

Before I moved I was hunting large cutovers and I OFTEN used binos. Many times I could see over-thru-around 120 acres from 1 box stand.

The last 3 seasons I've been hunting on my Uncle's property, 70 acres of mixed pasture, thickets, hardwood, and small plots of pine. I can't remember once when I would have had time to use binos.

Where you hunt and the conditions determine what's good or best for you.

Walking around and sometimes bouncing them out changes things from sitting up on the poop deck.

I can't remember when I OWNED/USED a fixed X scope. I DON'T own/use a fixed X even on a 22 rf. I have a 2-7 on my Mzldr. NOT ONE time have I ever felt I would have been better served with any fixed scope.


edited to add >>>Good Night, Catch up tomorrow!

I've been using high powered variables for decades for the reasons mentioned. Different strokes I suppose.

I did get a kick out of the comment on time adjusting the mag. I leave my scopes on 6-8 power and can max them in about one second, usually while in the process of shouldering the rifle.

Different areas call for different tactics. Binos aren't needed here at home, I only carry them because I can see down lanes better during the last few mins of legal light. They will flat cost you a deer if you dick with them when a deer is present as you usually have about 3 seconds from first seeing a buck to never seeing him again. OTOH when I hunt in TX, CO, or WY, I use them all day long as it seems one may have minutes + to take the shot.

As far as judging deer in mere seconds, it's comes from lots of encounters over the years. It mostly boils down to the oh schit factor

Exactly. I believe that's been said several times.



I guess that was a stretch. Had to come up with something. LOL.

Lol, I hear ya.

Yep, easy to spot those that don't hunt in theses conditions.

That's funny

I hunted in North East Pa. for 25 yrs. and in no instance would the use of a big power variable helped or hurt my chances at a shot. I used all kinds of guns and scopes. On deer drives( before point restrictions or does only) a running shot was the best you could expect. Nowadays counting points and checking for houses, other hunters and parked atvs before you shoot makes quick shots a thing of the past....... at least in my humble opinion.

Shrapnel....I have rifles with......both!

I prefer lower magnification scopes and I like fixed power scopes on many of my rifles - mostly light rifles. I have two 3x-9x scopes on rifles that might be used for pronghorns.

Many rifles that I buy have 3x-9x scopes on them and I sell those scopes cheap at gun shows.

I do not like variables and high power scopes for several reasons. But the main is they are an abnomination on light rifles. I do have a couple fixed high power scopes for heavy barrelled prairie dog rifles. You can have your 4x-12x and up scopes. They would be on my table at a gun show no matter what brand they are.

My binocs don't require focusing.

I use binocs to judge all deer before shooting.

I DO like the extra X on the scope at times though, it helps threading the needle with the bullet on 300 plus yard shots into the brush that I often have chances at.

If it were all wide open, iron sights could be more than enough.

The only issue I had once, with 0X on a red dot, was not seeing a small hard vine in front of a buck in a swamp... For the life of me I could not figure out why that buck didn't just run a bit and fall over... had to back track after about 150 yards to figure things out, found the vine that I"d never seen, clipped in half... and after quite a ways started finding bone fragments that indicated probably deflected from heart to a low leg shot. Followed that trail and that deer for over 7 hours before we lost the trail... he was still going last time I got a glimpse of him.

But even him, I'd glassed as legal when he was walking up.

I won't use the scope to judge whether big enough or legal but I sure see the use of larger X on scopes at times...

And I do get your area vs time. I have lost shots due to glassing with binocs.... just my choice I guess.

Was reared not to pick the gun up until I knew I was going to shoot. I guess it stuck and there isn't anything wrong with that.

And as long as you identify the game as game and know what it is and choose to "glass" it with the scope, who cares.

But I've also lost shots just becuase I wasn't fast enough to chamber a round and get on the deer.

Wasn't a big loss though.

I wish I knew when/where your shows are!!

The reason I prefer light weight rifles is that it allows room for a somewhat LARGER scope and still maintain reasonable weight overall.

As y'all know we don't have time/space to include every detail.

On no.1 I did not have time to use binos and THEN get the shot. It takes LESS than 1 second to crank up the variable.

On no.2 I COULD have used binos BUT my scope is 4-12X and I don't use 12X binos. Most of the reading I've done indicates that more 8 or 10 X binos are used than those larger than 10X. I've not done any survey per bino power, just my impression.

Yeah, I've HAD my share of those moments.

I was brought up with the rule that you don't point your gun at anything you don't want to shoot. How many times have you seen a flash of color in the woods and leveled your rifle on it only to find out it's Billyjoejimbob your neighbor out walking his dog. I'm sure he appreciates you turning your scope up to verify that he wasn't a deer. I've had a firearm leveled at me by a numbnut that thought it was a good idea to verify what he was looking at through his gunsight.

Your assumption that someone doesn't have any experience with hunting WT is absolutely laughable just because they can find fault in your methods.

The antler restrictions you're throttled with surely suck ( I witnessed it first hand in Pennsylvania) but that isn't an excuse for poor gun handling.

CR

I've dealt with antler point restrictions in my home state of Missouri for the past several years (at least 4 pts on one side). Best thing to happen to our deer hunting in my opinion. Has significantly improved the quality of bucks in my hunting area. If you want one to eat, there's plenty of does. Wouldn't think of going deer hunting without good binoculars. Probably as important as the scope.

Some don't get it. One knows it is a deer before he goes to the scope. Duh.

Tell that to the families of those hunters killed or injured because the shooter just knew he was shooting at a deer.......

Duh.....indeed.

CR

Obviously he did not know if he shot someone. DUH! Identify first DUH!

Good, I knew you'd eventually get up to speed. Absolutely correct, identify first before leveling your firearm on the target.

CR

To answer your ?.

I have NEVER repeat NEVER scoped 'something' to find out it was a PERSON!!

I was raised and taught proper gun handling and hunting 'ethics'. I would NOT like being scoped nor 'ironed'...so I don't do it !!

Your ASSumption that I have is too, laughable.

Guys let me remind us that the theme of MY thread is using scopes for DEER.

There are many tangents we go off on but those are not the subject!

No you just caught on.

Good, glad to hear it. So, what will your position be if and when it does happen?

CR

Personally, I think threads about,good reasons to shoot an uber-magnum are much more useful.

What part of this post did you not get? "one know it is a deer" too complicated?

What part of this statement didn't you understand?

"Tell that to the families of those hunters killed or injured because the shooter just knew he was shooting at a deer......."

CR

You get dummer with every posts. Still not getting "ones knows" the only way to know is to "identify" first.

Geez!

One more time and I am typing slow, if some one shot another for a deer then they did not "know" their target. That is very simple to understand. No where did I post "if you think it is a deer" get in the scope. No where was that even implied except by you.

Every year there are reports of accidental shootings because they just knew they were shooting at a deer. When the trigger is pulled they're sure they identified their target as a deer. What part of that eludes you?

CR

No "they just thought" that is obvious that they did not identify the target first. You keep missing this obvious point. The obvious eludes you again.

And the answer to your ? is.......


Ain't gonna happen, " I DON'T DO IT"

You need reading COMPREHENSION therapy!!

Somebody gets it!

No one has advocated determining if it is a deer or not with the rifle scope, but once one has identified a deer, it is cool to get in the scope and prepare for a shot if it is viable.

I�ll give you credit for being a complete fugging idiot. I knew there must have been a reason I had you on ignore. Shouldn�t have toggled.

What makes you think I don�t hunt whitetail in the brush?

Yep.

I don�t think anyone here said that binos needed to be used on all game.

Then how would you know that a variable is superior?

I�ve seen deer lost because people were dicking around adjusting their scope magnification when they should have been shooting. That is, multiple persons. People.

That being said, if a guy has time to adjust his scope magnification, he has time to transition from binos to his rifle.

Try stamping your feet and typing a little louder, you just about have me convinced...

No arguments on that statement here, it's the people that are too lazy or can't figure out how to focus binocs that use their rifle scope to determine what they're looking at that I have issue with.

CR

COMPREHENSION !!

I did not say "I've NEVER used a fixed X scope" !

I said I can't remember WHEN I did!!

I also did NOT say the variable scopes were "superior".
I feel they are better FOR ME !

As hard as it is for you to say, think, or accept, you are WRONG in that conjecture. Is your name 'Fonzy'?

What don�t you understand?

Trying to conduct a meaningful conversation about guns and hunting with you is like talking about particle physics with a retarded 6 year old. It�s just not worth the time and effort.

I'd take a 2x - 7x over a 3x - 9x on almost any application unless I knew I'd be shooting at long distances or small targets in particular prairie dogs come to mind. If I needed 9x to hit a deer, I think I'd need to learn some hunting stalking skills.

Actually, check that. A thread about good reasons to drive an Uber-Avalanche would be more useful.

That was my first thought. I agree there isn't always time. But I have done well without high powered scopes for a long time......

Wow good job. That one needed out of the gene pool really badly.

Don't know about you Bob, but I do know that you've hunted whitetails quite a bit here and in Alberta too and what I've found is that the big boys don't get big by being stupid meaning they don't generally enter into open areas (say like crossing from one thicket to another) and offer you much time at getting a shot off. That's been my experience when hunting in Sask as well as with most other areas I've hunted big whitetails which also includes Maine, Nova Scotia, Cape Breton Island and NYS as well. Not saying that I glass with the scope, but I am saying that when you see one it's time to start shooting and stop star gazing. Otherwise, it's usually an empty season gone by. It's one thing to "glass" areas to locate/spot deer and yet another once you see them and have to decide whether or not to shoot. One thing about Sask whitetail's (and Maine and Nova Scotia) that I've rarely seen a whitetail buck who's rack had to be evaluated to see if it's big enough legally to shoot. I think those northern bucks are born with visible antlers...........

Come on folks. I have seen where bow hunters killed hunters and am sure shotgunners have done it too. Guys writing on this forum talking about taking shots at multiple football lengths, and producing proof they pull it off are the least of my worries in the woods.

On the subject of simplicity I have kept to close shots, fixed x and #4 reticles as a rule but as stated I am liking my new variable a lot. Just applying it a little differently.


One serious question- because I don't have any 20x scopes. I get why you may not have time or need for binos (pics made it clear) but has anyone lost any deer dickin' around with parallax settings? An honest question form one with extremely limited long range pull time.

Speaking only for myself--- no because I set the P A at 200 yds and leave it there.

Bear in mind that 400 yds is the longest opportunities I've had and the difference is close enuff for Deer Hunting.

So I don't mess with PA WITHIN the distances I hunt. At extreme range it probably makes a real diff. but I haven't needed to experiment beyond 400 yds.

An honest answer.

2muchgun -


Good job! Great Punch line!

What's the 200 yd trajectory?

I don't use binoc's for horn or sex determination on a deer I can see is a deer, I put my scope on the thing cause I might want to shoot it.

It takes less time to "dick around" with a scope than to switch from binoculars to a scope.

If they "should have been shooting", they shouldn't be "dicking around" with binoculars

Oh I guess they should have been spotting the countryside with their rifles then.

What part of......

..."IF THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN SHOOTING"...don't you understand??

NO ONE but YOU say anything about 'glassing the countryside with a scope' !!

Are you naturally adamant or have you gone to school in 'hardheadedness'?

Are you so tunnel visioned that you can't see the difference?

Maybe you are naturally 'anal'!!

Someone tell him that he made my day.

You had to know you'd get some flack making this thread..Lots of us dont fret dinks getting away, and more X's aint gonna factor into the "shoot that fugger now" type bucks.

I do prefer variables,but it aint to judge antlers with..Of course your needs are different..Two totally different approaches as lots of guys aint scrutinizing a dinks antler points and salivating over putting a bullet in the first legal buck they see..Not that theres anything wrong with that, but hardly a reason for a call out thread.

Antler restrictions + woods hunting = variable

Although my 3-9 mostly stays on 3, the 9 is there if I need it.

To be technical not that much time really. Its getting the gun up that takes the time. If you have the gun ready, but are glassing, dropping binocs, I use a harness, and looking into scope doesn't take much time.

I often feel that the ability to see even with a few X less on the binocs is better since they have two tubes.

There is an area there though where about 14-16X starts to trump my 10X binocs.
Generally at that point I reach for my 25X spotting scope though.

Rosco - - ( upper case type used for emphasis only)

I totally agree that BOTH of those bucks are 'dinks' in that they had small racks for their age. That's another part of the subject that I did not use the time nor space in discussing.

I don't object to discussing it either. It is IMPORTANT to me to CULL these inferior 'breeders'. They were 'legal' and NOT trophies in most considerations.
OTOH - Both were not young and were breeding. IMO they were worthy of being removed. I used my legal tags to CULL them.

The one this year WAS using my Uncle's place and surrounding property and breeding as much as he could. Therefore he was spreading his inferior genetics.

The second buck pictured was a mature buck weighing 176-178 lbs and had a 17 1/2" INSIDE spread. He was breeding, I watched him pushing a doe and actually there were 2 or 3 does. Also I had killed 2-3 younger, legal bucks with the SAME frame structure from the same stand AND on less than 40 acres for all 3.

So, no. 1 I wanted them removed from the gene pool.

And no. 2 to the point of this thread, OP, without the ability to determine 3 points on 1 side, I would have HAD to pass on them, therefore allowing them to continue spreading their inferior genetics.

As mentioned earlier, there are most of the time other aspects (tangents) to our threads and it's impossible to cover all of them w/o writing a book.

jwall

I have had issues too, with glassing up a legal or trash buck, that was barely legal, in a gropu of bucks, and then have them meander in and out while trying to shoot, and realized that if I didn't have 8X on the one gun I couldn't pick it out..

Don't sweat all this...

I still glass with binocs, as if i miss killing a deer its not that big a deal.

But as I've indicated there has always, at least for me, been a use for higher X.

Its why I won't anymore use a fixed 1 or 2 or 2.5x scope or a non mag red dot. I even like to see tall grass thats in the way.

And since some of the holes I shoot through are 2-3 deer wide, and over 300 and up to 400 yards away, its nice to be able to see if you can thread it or not.

I still wont' glass for deer with a scope but thats not at all what you did.

I don't envy folks who don't have long to look at deer though, its just not fun if you have to make a quick decision and shoot the first legal one you see so to speak. At least thats not why I hunt, simply to shoot one. ITs a byproduct of what I enjoy.

Of course there is still the 23-24 inch wide 8 I let walk opener here, thats been haunting me.... I don't know why I didn't shoot, and now I have looked for him for the last 6 weeks or so...but I digress... I looked at him with binocs for probably 2-3 minutes at 50 yards and never picked the rilfe up deciding he was not what I thought he was...

+1

That puts it about as simply as possible! It seems this is breaking down into an East vs. West thing. What many don't realize is that in the places and at the ranges WE hunt, when you see a deer, it is already OBVIOUS that it is a deer. It's just a matter of deciding if it's legal and making the shot before it disappears. Based on observations in nearly 40 years of hunting, I doubt if 1 hunter in a 100 in PA carries binoculars.

When people may only get 1 or 2 days to hunt, they might only get one chance at a legal deer and aren't trophy hunting. To the point of the OP, variables can help decide if a marginal deer is legal when there isn't time for binoculars.

In places like PA, a 3-9 is about perfect. 3x can be used in brush and when following up shots. 9x can be used from stands. I wouldn't want anything much larger than a 3-9 though as they aren't wide enough at the low end and make the rifle heavy and unwieldy.

Fixed 6 would be pretty good for all.

If you are going to shoot it the rifle has to be pointed at it. As soon as a "deer" is located I get in the scope.

Not in my experience. I used a Leupold 2-7 Compact for 30 years and thought it was the perfect scope. But, with antler restrictions, a little extra magnification enables me to see a lot more detail in antlers. With the 2-7, I had to let some big bucks go in low light. I knew they were big and almost certainly legal. But, unless you can count the points you don't dare shoot.

JWall: I am inclined to agree with you. I have shot with mostly 1-4.5x and 3-9X variable scopes, but I keep a 4-12X40 on at least one rifle for shots out past 100 yards at last light.

This year, I was trying out 2 new rifles and it just so happened I had the 3-9X Bushnell Elite on it. A "doe" came out at 150 yards with her backside to me, and started munching with her head down. I followed her with binos for a while before bringing up the rifle. I finally closed the deal at 165 yards.

What the 3-9X scope did not pick up were the spikes. Here is the result:


The good news is I finally got to enter the 24hour Dinkathon, and got an admirable mention for the "Monster Dink." However, this is my first spike, and I burned my one KY buck tag on him. Those willowy spikes were impossible to pick up against a background of broom sedge at 165 yards at 10 minutes after sundown.

I'm 56 years old and have bad eyes. Binos or not, it still helps having some magnification on the subject.

BTW: The binos I use in the blind are these:

msq. richdhunter, jwp, rost. etc.

Some things just have to be experienced to be understood.

Words, descriptions, & paragraphs can't make reality, a reality to others!

THANKS
Jerry

Shaman -

Understand!

That spike (doe) IS illegal in Ark.

Thanks for the visual.

I'd much rather go hunting with an iron sighted revolver and decent binoculars than a scoped rifle (no matter the scope) and no binos. Binoculars are for ID'ing and counting points, rifle scopes are for directing bullets. Period, end of story.

Anyone who can't transition from binos to rifle AFTER a decision has been made to shoot in a matter of seconds needs to spend more time on the range, off the bench from field positions, learning to run their rifle and less typing on the internet.

No one said they hunted without bino's, unless I missed it.

The OP sure never suggested it.

Seems like he did to me. He may carry them, but he absolutely stated he doesn't use them. He uses his rifle scope to ID legal deer.

I do not take his post to mean that he does not use bino's. I believe that he uses bino's just as I do, to locate a deer and then get into the scope ready to shoot if further observation deems a shooter. I believe he means he doesn't do final determination with the bino's. I hunt in my home area in a lot of cut overs and one better not be dicking with bino's after the deer is located. Hunting in different areas I have and often do the final detemination in bino's or spotting scope. He could have done a better job of explaining.

Maybe I am wrong, but I used my own experience to interpret intent.

Not directed at anyone specific, but spike vs doe, I"ve always been able to look at the head coloration and be suspect.
That and the hocks on the hind legs, they are just different doe to buck, even if the bucks are not tarry yet or have washed out.

I'm not saying its not possible to make a mistake but there are other things to look at when trying to make the decision at longer distances on male vs female.

Just an FYI. Look at the large picture sometimes helps. We can all get somewhat tunnel vision at times.

LOL, different areas. If I did that, I'd mount the gun 20-30 or even 40 plus times per hunt as bucks come in and go out of my area.
One morning I had 17 differetn bucks out trying to shoot a doe. Talk about a disaster.

But when we are talking decision made to shoot, rifle comes up.

So many different areas and ways to shoot deer, it gets crazy when discussing it.

I even disagree with fixed 6x as being perfect, for some of our scenarios at home, and some of my shots over 300 yards, it won't tell you enough difference sometimes if they are mixed in the bunch.

I make it work with use of binoculars and patience but as noted not everyone has the time or ability IE if you want a deer you have 5 seconds to ID, judge legality and shoot. Or you won't get anotehr chance.

I read often here of folks going days without seeing a deer sitting and waiting.

I'd be duck hunting instead by far. And if the ducks ain't flying I'd be at home working on projects.

For me, I'm still partial to the 3/4-12/14 X area for some reason even though they are a bit bulky...

Jeff

I do the same as you when I hunt in Texas, the deer here give you very little time and you do not see that many normally. They stay out of sight for a reason, once season starts.

In the 10 days hunting this fall, 4 point or better mule deer, I never saw a hunter with binoculars.

Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about what those other hunters used to ID you, don't it?

In Canada we can tell the difference between a human and a deer with the naked eye, nor do we need the requirement of blaze orange apparel.

Different strokes for different folks. I grew up hunting public land back east; at that time the deer density was low, the cover they could disappear into was virtually unlimited, and the feed was (still is) plentiful enough that they didn't need to leave cover for it. Getting an opportunity at a buck was a big deal, and putting one on the ground was an achievement. Still is, but the density has improved in lots of those places.

If I hunted an area where I saw 20-30 bucks every time out, I'd grow bored pretty quickly. That holds no excitement or sense of achievement for me. And yes, I've done it.

People tend to think that their way is the best way based upon their own experience and situation, whatever that might be. But, what may be the best technique for one area may not work in another. I would never want a house without a basement. But, I'd probably change my mind PDQ if I moved to someplace like New Orleans!

Listen, I'd be the first to admit I probably missed cues. On the other hand it was getting dark on an otherwise dark day. I might have held up, but this was my new rifle, my new scope, and dangit! I wanted some venison. Some days you feel like a nut and sometimes you don't.

The problem is if I've got astronomical binos and a $300 scope cranked down to 9X, I still have to be dang careful with my old eyes. I can't imagine trying to pick up a 1 inch point on a buck in those conditions.

Have you considered stepping up the quality of your bino selection?

What would you suggest? These are 25X70 astronomical binos. I use them on a tripod or hand-held during the year to scout for deer and turkey. Normally I can count points on a buck at 450 yards, but that's usually before sundown.

What I'd really like is my eyes rolled back to about 1975.

You've got a lot of magnification, but at their price point I can't imagine the clarity is on par with "serious" binoculars. Also, at any quality level, that much magnification would be useless to me when hand held.

I use Meopta Meostars.

I use Lieca UltraVid bino's and S&B scopes.

Yes ! I have and keep with me a pair of compact binos. Doesn't mean I've had time to use them BEFORE shooting!!


REDUX !!
jds44>>this is for YOU!

I'm 65 yo, and you have a way to go to catch up with me using firearms.

I need to find SLOW bucks. <G>

Thanks again JWP.

Smoke, I"m glad I have not gotten bored. its really interesting to see which new bucks show, when, which ones aren't there. Which ones show for a day or two or a week or two never to be seen again, or to not be seen for 2 or 3 months...

That part keeps it really exciting for us.

Not to mention looking for the right buck.

While I do have feeders out, I'm doing good hunting any year regardless of if they eat or not at feeders, and many years I go a few hunts or more without ever having one come by a feeder, but I'm set up on an intersection of trails basically a funnel thats also a mini saddle if you will.

Now if I was after only a legal buck it would not get real boring either, I can make that happen before sunrise almost any opening day... Hence it can't get too boring in the matter of 20 minutes or so.

And bottom line, we can only hunt what we have access to and should be happy with that.

Hey, I wasn't taking a poke at you, only a general suggestion for those that may not realize that different areas on deer of different sexes appear different once you get used to looking at them.

As to 1 inch.... the ONLY way you can see that is side profile with the head up. You don't always get that.

I'm lucky though, even though I've had corrected vision since 15 and probably needed it sooner than that, I have no distance vision to speak of, can't see a deer at 200 yards in the wide open if I take my specs off....And I'm 31 days from being 50, I can still see nubs with 10X Zeiss most times even if they are facing me.

But that ability along with a few others, is starting to slip away.

I totally hear you on nut and not nut. There are some days I go with a mission in mind. Went one day at the house after getting back from the deer lease. Really wanted to test a new bullet in the 32-20... had to reload some that afternoon. Got it done later than I wanted, kissed the wife after checking the sights, and walked to the south end. Got in pop up, zipped the back door up and looked up to see 3 bucks standing there in the brush. They were not there when I got in. Guess we got there at the same time so to speak. Nice 10, decent 8 and a spike.
Waited a minute or so until the spike stepped out. Cocked and shot him. Unzipped the back almost literally as he was running off, walked home.
Wife asked what I forgot. I said we need to go get a deer. She was in disbelief. Said that was as fast as she'd seen me "finish" ever. LOL...
I think she actually thought I was fooling her until we foudn the blood trail...
Hmmm, come to think of it, that was a good deer trail, no binocs, no scope... just irons an an 1892...

Just because you've been doing something a long time, doesn't mean you're doing it right. I would not knowingly hunt or allow my kids to hunt anywhere around you. Anybody that uses their rifle scope to ID their targets ain't safe to be around. Don't know how much plainer I can put it.

I've run into one of those guys. I watched him scope 'something', I came up from behind him on an ATV and he was stopped scoping something. I pulled down his rifle and I asked 'Deer?'

He said no, it was a tree. I asked WTF are you using your rifle to identify, as I hunt these areas too. He said he could tell the difference between a person and a deer.

I said REALLY, you couldn't tell the difference between a tree and a deer.


Many people are kid themselves. Lots of folks around here with 1 year of experience 65 times. Lots of 'You can't do that here' type of provincialism.

Lots of simple things baffle lots of people and because so they assume no one else can do it to.

It's evident in a bunch of these posts. Funny stuff

Let's say I had a Doe tag. I wouldn't be using my scope to ID these two at around 50 yards and I don't know how much plainer I can put it.



And yes, if I forgot my binos I would go back home to get them.
That being said, they are there and I appreciate what they can do. But it doesn't mean they are always needed for every situation.

Another poster mentioned hunters using Binos in Pa. He is correct, damn few have any. I wish more did.

jwall I agree with you.
For someone to say that you are an unsafe hunter based on using your scope to determine legality has serious reading and comprehension skills.

IF a Hunter KNOWS for sure it is a deer then no harm nor foul has been done to determine whether it has enough points to be legal or not.

IF a hunter was pointing a rifle at something to determine WHAT it is that would be unsafe.

BUT that is not what you are talking about.

Pay no attention to anyone that tells you that they would not feel safe hunting around you nor let their kids hunt around you based on your use of a rifle scope to identify legality of a deer in the MANNER in which you presented.

Who cares whether they FEEL safe??

Personally I would not feel safe hunting around anyone who didn,t have the reading and comprehension skills to understand what you are talking about.

Yes I own and use binos often BUT I do understand what you are talking about.

I KNOW when I am looking at a damned deer and there is NO problem using the scope to make sure it is legal.
IF I have ANY question as to what I am looking at, I will use the binos.

Go back and re-read the OPs posts on this thread. He can't remember once in the last 3 years that he would have had time to use binos. He's not just using his scope to determine legality, he's using it to ID targets too. Someone's got a comprehension problem alright, but it ain't me.

Just because he doesn,t use Binos to Id target doesn,t mean Jack Squat.
IF he KNOWS its a deer and turns his power ring up to make sure it is a LEGAL deer to shoot what friggin difference does it make !

Time to use Binoculars to see if there are enough points to be LEGAL does not equate to needing Binos to determine that it is in fact a deer.

Yeah the Comprehension problem IS YOURS.

I'm beginning to understand why the people of Arkansas thought Bill Clinton was such a smart man...

bcraig -

Yes, it's pretty simple>>with reading AND comprehension skills.

When you can SEE deer DURING GUN deer season, it is NOT unethical NOR unsafe to point a rifle at it. It's kinda hard to shoot or kill a deer without pointing a GUN at it.

I don't know how much simpler or plainer it can be.

Thank You

Jerry

jds44 Try just TRY to read this and comprehend !!

I'm sure I'm wasting my time but here goes ONE MORE TIME!!

jds - this quote is from PAGE 8

Now where are your reading & comprehension skills?

jwall I have my serious doubts jds44 is going to get it !

That line is an admission you've scoped things you didn't know what they were. So far, you've been lucky that none turned out to be a person. So far.

You boys just keeping doing what you do. Hopefully you'll never make a fatal mistake.

jwall,what did I tell you !

No, I think I'm starting to see the light: A deer, no matter how close or obvious, is not really a deer unless viewed with binoculars first. Now, would this principle also apply to things like bird hunting? After they flush, to be ethical should I also look at grouse and pheasants through the binoculars before I point the gun at them? Just checking for clarification.

Al gore is from where?

It's okay. I make fun of myself for taking that shot. Truth is, I'm lost without a scope anymore, and been that way since about 2001. Prior to that, I probably could have seen those spikes at 150 yards. I had to put scopes on my rifles then, and now I am going back and replacing all the 1.5-4.5X with 3-9X. Prior to this year I had to stop shooting about 10 minutes after sundown. The new scopes-- Bushnell Elites, Trophies, and Banners, are letting me hunt until an extra 10-20 minutes on each end.

Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTcBgs2huRo

Now, before you jump on my a$$: where I hunt binoculars in possession is mandated.

Very funny stuff.

I've been reading back over this thread and scratching my head. If see movement, or something doesn't look right, I'll throw up my binos and have a peek. I'll probably also use the binos for a quick scan of things every once in a while.

However, if I see a deer that LOOKS shootable, I put up my rifle and look through the scope, and make the final determination with the scope.

YMMV and all, but 90% of my shots are inside 150 yards and the animal has open field or leave-covered ground behind them.

I can't see why there is so much fuss over binos vs. scopes. I'm wearing enough orange that I appear to other hunters as a second sunrise. I can be seen well into the next county distances that would have a 30-06 round bury itself in the dirt rather than make the whole trip. You can see the glow on the horizon 10 minutes before I come into view. If you put your rifle scope up to me, you could permanently damage your retina.

Common sense is in short supply it seems, don't use your rifle scope to figure out what something is, use your binoculars, don't use your binoculars on a deer you can clearly identify as a deer when you have 5 seconds or less to make up your mind to shoot or not. If you don't have a reasonable binocular buy one, if there is a message here its buy and use a decent binocular. If your sitting there with one magnified optic your bound to misuse it.

The real solution is to use camo duct tape (or maybe the versatile blue tape) to attach binoculars to your scope. The best of both worlds!

And so it shall be done!

Just another way to"look" at things. These days, unless I am glassing w/ binocs, when I spot something interesting I look at it through my 6x rangefinder. If it may be something I want to shoot I range it and prepare to shoot. When I put the scope on target I check for a clear background prior to shooting.

I never did get the impression that the OP was glassing through his scope.

mike r

Shaman - JimmyP - lvmlker -

You guys got it right!!

I have tried a few times to just let this thread DIE, but keep getting dragged back into it.<GRIN>

THANKS for voicing your opinions and observations.
I've had numerous PMs and 1 pone call in support.
THANKS to all of you! !


Mule Deer - Great IDEA, will try to perfect it before next deer season. lol

Jerry

Seems there are several that didn't share your impression.

.......and thanks Shaman for providing a beautiful example of a hunter knownig what he was shooting at only to find out he was wrong.

CR

I have not had a pair of binoculars in the deer woods in over three years. Rarely ever take them. It is just extra baggage. There are some areas I hunt in NC that I do use them and certain areas in other states where they are essential. I have been huntin whitetails for 40 years and have yet to put a scope on a person. I guess I am a bad teacher cause my wife and daughter rarely take them either. They are just not needed in most places we hunt.

Funny stuff ! Yea those 6 electoral votes did it. The only folks I know here who voted for him are Minorities and dead people, but there are alot of dead people in this area.Kinda like Memphis mayors.

Sir I understand! For the same reason I started not to get into this one, but from your OP onward I totally understood where you were coming from.The safety patrol posts don't fit here at all, as you knew it was a Deer and a Buck at that, seems as though some just want to get a rise here.
I likely have hunted within 50 miles of your area at one time or the other.
I hunt out West also and yes I use binos alot, esp. in the West but often in AR as well. There are times in the thickets though when I don't use them much, depends on the situation.
But in the cases you mentioned you had a situation where you KNEW it was a Deer & also KNEW it was a Buck. What some don't understand I guess is in this king of veg. if you look with binos, then see it not only has 3pts. on one side but is a
good Buck and it steps into a small spot where you can "thread
the needle", you drop your binos, raise your rifle & by the time you have done this, the Buck has taken 1 step & now you cannot shoot, BTDT.
And back to the intent of your thread, I have not experienced any problems with a v-scope in years, I would like to rig up a classic 30-06 with a 6x42 but I probably won't.

I was thinking that too. Some very dogmatic opinions based, it seems, on particular conditions, legal restrictions and so on, specific to each poster's own hunting.

FWIW here where I hunt there are no restrictions on how many points or what gender or any of that. No bag limits either, and for most game there's no closed season (fallow and red deer are exceptions, and for them the season runs from 1 March to 31 October in my state - the beginning of Autumn to past mid-Spring. Other deer are year round). For that reason I have no real need to scope out such details as whether it is a doe or a button, for example, or count points.

That doesn't mean that others don't have that need, and it does seem that some at least are thinking that what they need - or don't need - is what others should too. Conditions, and opinions, clearly differ.

BTT!

I agree with you on this one. The only disadvantage is a slight reduction in the field at any given power vs. a fixed power scope of the same magnification. I haven't witnessed a failure since my brother had a couple of old Weavers fail after being mounted on slug guns.

The Leupolds I prefer have plenty of eye relief, varying by about a half inch from low to high power. I have a couple of 3-9s, but the 2-7 is my favorite on a deer rifle as it gives plenty of field, even very close up and 7X allows me to better evaluate loads at the range. The 2-7 can usually be mounted as low as a 4x. All this does not apply to the compact models, as for me they give up too much eye relief to save a little weight.

One good reason to use a high power scope for close range work is because.......
























.......its the only scope you have and you can't afford to go out and buy a new one. Grin

Shod

Another good reason.....

Your down to your last dollar and you can't afford binos so you use your last few dollars to buy a half a box of ammo from a friend so you can still hunt.

Shod

No problem. You know, I've been at this now close to 35 years. It is truly never too late to start being stupid, optics and all aside. In all that time, I've shot exactly 1 spike. I still haven't managed a forker. I'm just glad this was #1 for the year and not the second. KY only allows one buck.