300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag for LR deer

Which cal is best fro LR deer?
Recoil?
Bullets?
Powder usage?
etc

Thanks
Coach

7mag.

What He Said

7 mag will recoil less, and a 7mm bullet is plenty for deer, so....

I would use a 160-gn Accubond myself if I were doing that.

A 300 WM would work just dandy too, with a little more recoil.

If your question was about ELK it would be a little more debatable, but I can't see one reason to choose a 300 WM over over 7 mag for DEER.

7 mag with a premium bullet with high BC like the 150g Scirocco,Accubond 160g.
Go with a scope with the ranging reticle like the Leupold Boone&Crocket, zeiss Z600, Burris ballistic plex ect. so you don't have to worry about holdover or clicking up elevation for longer shots.

If you are going this far you may as well step up to an even flatter shooting caliber like the 7mm or .300 ultra, .300 weatherby mags. These calibers with the right loads and set ups can allow a 400 yard zero with no compensation needed at mid range (will keep all shots in vitals 0-400 yards with 400 yard zero) Just keep in mind you also need an accurate gun for long range, one capable of putting bullets into at least 2 inch groups or less at 200 yards.

I've been using the 7 rem mag(along with the 270 win and 300 mag) for deer hunting in the west and Canada since about 1979.In the 7 mag I've mostly used the 140 Partition at 3200-3300, and in the 300 win mag friends and I have used the 165 at about the same velocities.Both work very well, but the 7 mag can be bought(or built)somewhat lighter than the 300,kicks less,burns less powder,and kills about as well.

I am on my third"favorite" 7 rem mag,a M70 Classic action with Kreiger barrel and Brown Precision stock.With 2.5-8 Leup it weighs 7.5 lbs all up and carries nicely,shoots accurately,and does not knock you into next week.A 300 this light may be manageable by some, but not me.Recently I started working with a 7mm Dakota on a M76 action that weighs app the same and does the same thing as the 7 rem mag but with more velocity.Recoil is very manageable.

I'm of the opinion that if you can't get it done on deer sized game(or anything else the West has to offer,for that matter)with a 7 Rem Mag and good bullets,you're going to be hard pressed to do it with anything.

Slam dunk for me, one of the big 7's which in my case is the 7 Mashburn Super.

Dober

I'd forgo either cartridge and go with the .264 winny.

Man I didn't see that one coming...you must be a Hoosier...

Dober

Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski

you must be a Hoosier...

A replant Hoosier

another vote for the 7 here

Brett

How much LR shooting have you done? If you are not holding over, what exactly are you doing with the Leupold Boone & Crocket, Zeiss Z600, Burris Ballistic Plex, etc? How long does it take to "click up" for a LR shot?

For the original question- 7mm pretty much has it all over 30cals. Higher BC bullets, more MV, less recoil, less powder.

For deer, especially, at LR the bonded bullets probably aren't optimum. Much better would be the 162gr AMAX, 168gr Berger, etc.

Originally Posted by Charles_A

Hor the original question- 7mm pretty much has it all over 30cals. Higher BC bullets, more MV, less recoil, less powder.

For deer, especially, at LR the bonded bullets probably aren't optimum. Much better would be the 162gr AMAX, 168gr Berger, etc.

Agreed.

I was thinkin' AMAX myself.

BMT

But then you'd have to do the "Sierra Stalk" if you had the buck of a lifetime FIFTY yards away <g>!

I know the 7mm have great BCs and theoretically would seem better at long range. But most of the long range matches are won by .30 cal and 6.5mm, so that leaves me unsure!

Originally Posted by Jeff_O

But then you'd have to do the "Sierra Stalk" if you had the buck of a lifetime FIFTY yards away <g>!

Dude....

Originally Posted by StrayDog

I know the 7mm have great BCs and theoretically would seem better at long range. But most of the long range matches are won by .30 cal and 6.5mm, so that leaves me unsure!

I know that the stands are filled with bucks while a local match is going on... they know what calibers to shy away from. Maybe you could suprise one with a 7mm... they'd never see it coming!

Originally Posted by Jamie

7mag.

I'd heed this advice... I've seen Jamie in action with a 7mm Rem. Mag. and a 162 A-Max... I wouldn't want to be within a mile of this combo. I reckon at the end of the day either would suffice... but the Big 7's do it without all the ruckus of the big .30s. If elk were on the LR menu I'd step up to one of the big .30s... or BIG .338s.

Dober: TF!

High BC bullets in 7mm for me..... but high BC means 160 plus, I start at 168s and lean towards 180s or 200s even.

The comments on matches won... not that this is a match, but I did a LOT of communication with David Tubb and his peers for a few years trying to come up with the correct 1000 yard target round for highpower rifle matches.

The end reason of the 7s not being popular is due to documented fliers in 7 mags in matches. No one could ever say why, but that was a lot of the input I got.
That being said the 7wsm was holding the one mile record last I checked....
I'm not scared, I just had a 300 wtby rebarreled to 7/300 wtby.. 28 inch tube and I'm sure I'll be happy if I can ever get some JLK 168s to start with.

Jeff

Not so fast gents...

250 zero.

30 cal. 150 E-Tip .469 BC 3,400 mv, 500 yards -25.2

28 cal. 140 AB .485 BC 3,300 mv, 500 yards -26.3

28 cal. 150 Swift S2 515 BC 3,200 mv,500 yards-27.8

28 cal. 120 BT 417 BC 3,500 mv, 500 yards- 24.8

I don't see where one really outperforms the other except for recoil in using the 120's in the 7mm.

Quote

I just had a 300 wtby rebarreled to 7/300 wtby.. 28 inch tube and I'm sure I'll be happy if I can ever get some JLK 168s to start with.

Whats twist rate Jeff?

Looks like I am in the minority. 300 Win Mag 2ith 175, 176, 178, 180, 190, 200, 208, or 210 gr bullets.

SU-try putting up numbers for these combo's when you get a minute, (if you're really bored...<g>)

Use a NBT for all of the bullets that way they're all the same and then sight them all in dead nuts on at 100 and see where they go @ 500.

Just for giggles this is.

Thx

Dober

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(if you're really bored...<g>)

Yeah...

Mark,

I'll punch those numbers in if you tell me that you personally sight in your rifles for a 100 yards for deer hunting.

For where I hunt 3" high at a 100 is the norm.

I hear you on that, but IMO the only true way to judge how they compare from one to another is to start them all at the same place at 100. Too many times I've seen rounds that are sighted @ 250 be up and or down a bit from each other at 100 and it just isn't quite grapes to grapes.

And for my Minnesota hunting I always sight them in at 100 yds...<g>

Just more gun gack is all it is.

Dober

Hey bro, its fun.

I know I know, just waiting for bruins to start up here. Now that'll be fun!

Dober

Yeah, as fun as the last year of endless gakking with ya'll has been... I do believe that hunting will be just a slight little smidge bit FUNNER!

Id surley pick the 7mm but would much rather use the 7x57 or 7mm-08,Ive got a deadly accurate 7mm Rem. mag. and Id guess I have not shot this weapon in 15 years ,its just a lot more rifle than is nessasary for taking deer sized game at any reasonable ranges common to man...............

If you are using the ballistic plex ect. other reticle systems you are placing a aiming point on the target-not trying to guess how high to hold over its back ect.And at the same time maintining the ability to have a normal hunting zero with the first crosshair. That is what I was trying to say. And standard magnums like the 7mm rem sighted in at say 250yards would take a lot of clicking up on the elevation turret to reach your 350,400,450,500 setting and no it would not be a quick proposition. By going to the flatter shooting big magnums you can have a 400 yard zero with very little clicking up for 500 yards.

Originally Posted by Timberbuck

If you are using the ballistic plex ect. other reticle systems you are placing a aiming point on the target-not trying to guess how high to hold over its back ect.And at the same time maintining the ability to have a normal hunting zero with the first crosshair. That is what I was trying to say. And standard magnums like the 7mm rem sighted in at say 250yards would take a lot of clicking up on the elevation turret to reach your 350,400,450,500 setting and no it would not be a quick proposition. By going to the flatter shooting big magnums you can have a 400 yard zero with very little clicking up for 500 yards.

I understand where you're coming from with this; the faster cartridges(than 7 rem mag,say)flatten things out a bit.There's more than one way to skin this cat,though.For years I've used the 7 rem mag and 300 win with 140's and 165's at app 3200-3250.With a 300 yard zero,these loads were down 8-10" at 400(about what you're saying)and only required a top of back hold on a good size buck;or high shoulder hold on elk.At 500 they hit about where the bottom duplex of a Leup variable set on 6X hits.That is pretty simple, too,and fast to get into action.No need to concern yourself with much out to 350.BTW the above was determined using Nosler Partitions,and Sierra's, pretty standard stuff.

The way I see it with the above set up,the dots, etc really do not make any difference till you get well past 450-500.The only real difference I have seen between the 300's and the 7's out to 600 in terms of trajectory,given roughly equivilent bullets,is if you don't play even Steven and shortchange one or the other from a velocity standpoint,and stack the odds with a tricked out bullet.Other than that, they are virtual twins to 600,as far as I have shot them.

Originally Posted by SU35

Not so fast gents...

250 zero.

30 cal. 150 E-Tip .469 BC 3,400 mv, 500 yards -25.2

28 cal. 140 AB .485 BC 3,300 mv, 500 yards -26.3

28 cal. 150 Swift S2 515 BC 3,200 mv,500 yards-27.8

28 cal. 120 BT 417 BC 3,500 mv, 500 yards- 24.8

I don't see where one really outperforms the other except for recoil in using the 120's in the 7mm.

Run those #s again... only this time lets see the wind drift. A well trained cockatoo can compensate for bullet drop using a rangefinder and turrets... but the wind is where you'll get beat up with low BC/high velocity bullets.

Originally Posted by SU35

Hey bro, its fun.

Couldn't agree more... proceed.

Out to just 500 yards I don't think wind is that much of a factor unless it's blowing really hard.

Also out 500 yards there's not enough difference between the 28 and 30 to call one better than the other.

Past 500 I'm going to use a range finder for either and use the best BC bullet in each caliber. I'll probably prefer the heavier bullet.

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they are virtual twins to 600,as far as I have shot them.

Yes!

Agreed... to a certain extent. Though, I tend to use the rangefinder anytime I think a shot is further than about 250 yds.

Here's a little eye opener though...

120 NBT @ 3500 drifts 17" at 500 yards... and has around 1500 fpe
168 Berger @ 3000 drifts only 12.5" at 500... and has 2000 fpe

That's a 30+ % reduction in drift... and a 30+ % increase in downrange punch. And, 4.5" of drift is enough to cause some problems... even on a pretty sizeable target.

You got it right, the drift is the biggest challenge not the up/down.

4 me, any rig that is gonna be used past 400 will have dotz/Bp and or turrets on it so that part is easy.

Dober

Originally Posted by Timberbuck

If you are using the ballistic plex ect. other reticle systems you are placing a aiming point on the target-not trying to guess how high to hold over its back ect"

So what are you doing when the target is 250, 350, 450, or 550 yards away?

"

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standard magnums like the 7mm rem sighted in at say 250yards would take a lot of clicking up on the elevation turret to reach your 350,400,450,500 setting and no it would not be a quick proposition"

How about a 243win? Care to time me? Time me!

So again, how much LR shooting have you done?

Originally Posted by SU35

Not so fast gents...

250 zero.

30 cal. 150 E-Tip .469 BC 3,400 mv, 500 yards -25.2

28 cal. 140 AB .485 BC 3,300 mv, 500 yards -26.3

28 cal. 150 Swift S2 515 BC 3,200 mv,500 yards-27.8

28 cal. 120 BT 417 BC 3,500 mv, 500 yards- 24.8

I don't see where one really outperforms the other except for recoil in using the 120's in the 7mm.

I don't see where Old Coach specified a max distance... About anything will work if your only shooting 500 yards. If that is the intended range I would scratch both and shoot a 243win.....

7mm's rock the 30 cals world in LR. Run your numbers to a 1,000 with like bullets and see the difference.

I own no 7mm,and have a sentimental attachment to the 300win, but lets do a comparison-

a 7/08 with 162 AMAX's at 2,750, needs 29.9 minutes of elevation and 6.7MOA of drift at 1k, compared to the 190gr SMK at 3,000 out of the 300win needing 27 and 7.3 MOA respectivly......

So for 30gr more powder, twice the recoil, and half the barrel life, I get 3 minutes less drop and 1/2min more drift.

Run those #'s again with a 210 Berger, 208 A-Max, or even a 240 SMK... see how those work out. I love it when guys use the best case scenario for one round and the middle of the road for another... then compare the numbers. And, it doesn't take much energy to punch a hole is paper (7mm/08)... anchoring big game animals at longer ranges is horse of another color.

I've done quite a bit of killin with the 6mms and the .25s... but when rubber meets the road on a big buck (or bull, or bear), I'll take the extra clout the big 7s and even bigger 30s offer... even if I do have to stuff a little extra powder in the case.

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I don't see where Old Coach specified a max distance..

He didn't and I just picked 500 yards out of the blue as a medium range. Let's go 1000 if you wish.

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a 7/08 with 162 AMAX's at 2,750, needs 29.9 minutes of elevation and 6.7MOA of drift at 1k,

What exactly is your zero sir?

Also, I run 6.5 140 VLD's .640 BC's at that same speed.

These are both great paper punchers and will no doubt do the job on deer at a long ways.

I personally like 30 calibers holes and weight at long distance especially when elk are in the mix. I may put up with some more recoil as result but well worth it to me.

Ok...

At 1K-

300win/240SMK- 29.3MOA drop and 5.8 moa windage

300win/210 Berger- 28.3MOA drop and 6.3 moa wind

300win/208gr AMAX- 28.2MOA drop and 6.2 moa wind

Thank you for making my point....

"Energy" means dick when it comes to killing, and there isn't a buck, bull, or bear that will survive a 162gr AMAX impacting the chest at 1,495 FPS.

Fact is, it takes the 300win 80 grains more bullet, 30 grains more powder, twice the recoil, and half the barrel life to barely eek out the lowly 7/08 at 1,000yds.

100 Yrds.

The last animal I kill on this earth will be with a 300WM, and when a deer MUST die, the 300win/178gr AMAX combo, is hard to beat... That said, LR is about the bullet, and it takes a lot of .308 caliber bullet, to match the 7mm's.

Seems to me, caliber, bullet weight, and even BC is less important, than your shooting ability with a particular rifle. Having a rifle that is consistently accurate, a good LR scope, and the skill to use them will trump bullet weight, BC, caliber etc.

A deer hit well with any of the standard deer calibers (243, 270, 30-06, 308, etc.) should perform nicely if the bullet opens up correctly at the velocity your shooting at.

If you can shoot a .338 as well as a .308 than its just a matter of dealers choice.

Still its fun to opine about the best of anything.

Originally Posted by buffhunter

Seems to me, caliber, bullet weight, and even BC is less important, than your shooting ability with a particular rifle. Having a rifle that is consistently accurate, a good LR scope, and the skill to use them will trump bullet weight, BC, caliber etc.

A deer hit well with any of the standard deer calibers (243, 270, 30-06, 308, etc.) should perform nicely if the bullet opens up correctly at the velocity your shooting at.

If you can shoot a .338 as well as a .308 than its just a matter of dealers choice.

Still its fun to opine about the best of anything.

Spoken like someone who's never pulled the trigger on a critter at anything further than tree-stand range. To an extent, what you say is theoreticly true... however, anyone who's ever shot a lot at longer ranges knows that an accurate load with a high BC buller is much easier to shoot (once the range stretches into the 1/4+ mile range) than an equally accurate load with a lesser BC. Once again... WIND is the enemy... everything else is science.

One can as easily get a "rifle that is consistently accurate, a good LR scope, and the skill to use them" with the best bullet, as they can with the worst, so why would you would hamstring your efforts with a sup-par bullet....

Regardless, one would be better taking the rifle they have with a new scope if needed, and actually learn to use it, rather then spending thousands on the greatest round in the world and think they got it......

Originally Posted by Charles_A

One can as easily get a "rifle that is consistently accurate, a good LR scope, and the skill to use them" with the best bullet, as they can with the worst, so why would you would hamstring your efforts with a sup-par bullet....

Then why in the hell do they make long range bullets... if you can shoot them just as well as the "worst" bullets?

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"Energy" means dick when it comes to killing, and there isn't a buck, bull, or bear that will survive a 162gr AMAX impacting the chest at 1,495 FPS.

I have never been an disciple of energy and pretty much what else you say is pure bovine puckey.

I've killed up to 40 elk in the 50 years of my life including using the then new 708 to know it's not a round I fancy for killing elk at any distance. Using it and seeing it's lack of performance pushed me into the 30 mag camp of which I was never a member till the mid 90's. I also will never go back to the 08 size elk mentality.

You can qoute all the paper stats you want.
I KNOW what a 30 caliber 180 or 200 grain bullet will do to an elk in comparison to a 708 will do.
I don't trust the Amax for angle shots on large mule deer let alone elk. Anybody that does for my money doesn't know what they are talking about. Show me proof, video or witness that you personally have killed elk out to a 1000 yards with the 708
using the Amax. Please show me.

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Fact is, it takes the 300win 80 grains more bullet, 30 grains more powder, twice the recoil, and half the barrel life to barely eek out the lowly 7/08 at 1,000yds.

Fact is,

It more like 40 grains of bullet and 20 grains more of powder.

And this bit, "half the barrel life"?

Your smoking wild mountain honey.

And btw, I saw the picture of the buck you killed with an Amax.
Dude, i'm not impressed at all.

I think you reach a point in the ballistic scheme of things where the numbers simply don't tell the whole story. I am a very big fan of "sorta" large capacity 7mm's like the 7 rem mag and the STW-type cartridges, and have shot a fair amount of game with 7mm's from the 7/08 to the 7 rem mag,and they work really well on about anything.I've also used the 300 win mag and the 300 Weatherby(never any faster 30)and my general impression has been that big 30's with bullets of 180-200 grains seem to impact animals harder,penetrate deeply,break up a lot of bone and do a lot of damage.

My general impression has been that they are "more gun" than the 7mm's,especially as distance increases. That said, I feel that fast 7's are very good and I like them because the rifles can be built lighter than big 30's,recoil less,and are flat shooting and very lethal;but I do not think they are as powerful as a big 30.I know the numbers don't bear this out but IMO this is where the numbers and reality part company.

I think much the same thing can be said as you move up the caliber ladder to the 338 and the 375,both great,but again I think 375's are more gun.

None of this means I'm trading my 7mm's for 30's.Just an observation.Both work really well.

Originally Posted by Charles_A

Ok...

At 1K-

300win/240SMK- 29.3MOA drop and 5.8 moa windage

300win/210 Berger- 28.3MOA drop and 6.3 moa wind

300win/208gr AMAX- 28.2MOA drop and 6.2 moa wind

Thank you for making my point....

"Energy" means dick when it comes to killing, and there isn't a buck, bull, or bear that will survive a 162gr AMAX impacting the chest at 1,495 FPS.

Fact is, it takes the 300win 80 grains more bullet, 30 grains more powder, twice the recoil, and half the barrel life to barely eek out the lowly 7/08 at 1,000yds.

What point is that??? ohhh... it's that you have no idea what you're talking about. Your welcome. Eeeking out the 7/08 on the target range is one thing... but it doesn't mean dick when bullets are pointed at furry stuff.

Once again... the paper ballistic expert Idiot Card trups the actuall field experience. It's amazing to me how many internet long range experts there are. I watched no less than 5 guys, just like you Charles, try to hit a 20"x18" gong at 600 yards last night. They talked a lot of ballistic gobbledy gook, two of them even had "Ballistic Reticles"... three of them eventually hit the plate, but they couldn't do it consistently. These guys are pretty successful hunters... and I know they can shoot good groups at 100 yards with their rifles (one 7/08, two '06s, two .270s). But, even knowing their guns, loads, and 'theoretical trajectories' couldn't help them in a moderate breeze. Three 210 Bergers out of my .300 RUM shut them all up post haste... not to mention the dramatic difference in impact.

Originally Posted by DDP

[quote=Charles_A]Ok...
and 'theoretical trajectories' couldn't help them in a moderate breeze. Three 210 Bergers out of my .300 RUM shut them all up post haste... not to mention the dramatic difference in impact.

That is impressive. I love the facial expressions when theoreticals fall short of their beliefs in reality.

I am curious though, without much of a wind what would be the size of your five shot groups at 600?

Shot 3 rounds last night... group was a little over MOA. Not the best shooting I've done, but off a bipod in a little wind... I'll take it. Normaly the rifle shoots about MOA out to about 1/2 mile... the best 5 shot group at 600 was just under 4".

I'm not much of a "group" guy... I take much more stock in hitting what I'm aiming at, especially with the 1st shot. I feel that's the true reason for going to a high BC bullet... when it's a 1-shot... and that shot needs to be on target... there's no room for "worst" bullets or theoretical drop charts.

Here's the group... the 1st round hit center, the 2nd round was high-left (and actually tilted the plate pretty good), I called the 3rd round a little right when the gun went off... I noticed the wind died off just before I hit the switch. The 3rd impact looks a little funny too... the plate was tilted about 40* so it didn't hit the steel very square.

[Linked Image]

The reason I ask is that I use the group size of about 8" as a reference for my maximum distance for a game shot. If it is windy that would only be about 400 yards for me.

Originally Posted by DDP

Originally Posted by Charles_A

One can as easily get a "rifle that is consistently accurate, a good LR scope, and the skill to use them" with the best bullet, as they can with the worst, so why would you would hamstring your efforts with a sup-par bullet....

Then why in the hell do they make long range bullets... if you can shoot them just as well as the "worst" bullets?

You lost me... Are you just looking for an argument, or does your reading and comprehension need work?

You're post states that someone with a good scope and accurate rifle can easily shoot "the best bullets" and "the worst bullets" with equal accuracy at long range... does it not?

This is quite simply not true... there is a reason for the development of high BC bullets... that reason is accuracy and consistency over a braoder range of conditions. I'm not looking for an argument... I'm ending one.

Originally Posted by SU35

Quote

"Energy" means dick when it comes to killing, and there isn't a buck, bull, or bear that will survive a 162gr AMAX impacting the chest at 1,495 FPS.

I have never been an disciple of energy and pretty much what else you say is pure bovine puckey.

Quote

You can qoute all the paper stats you want.
I KNOW what a 30 caliber 180 or 200 grain bullet will do to an elk in comparison to a 708 will do.
I don't trust the Amax for angle shots on large mule deer let alone elk. Anybody that does for my money doesn't know what they are talking about.

A 162gr AMAX penetrating the chest of an elk at 1,495fps, wont kill it?

Just out of curiosity, whats the title of this thread???

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Fact is,

It more like 40 grains of bullet and 20 grains more of powder.

So the difference between 240grSMK and a 162gr AMAX is 40 grains? And the difference between 75gr of powder and 45gr of powder is 20? Interesting math...... give or take.

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And this bit, "half the barrel life"?

Your smoking wild mountain honey.

Whats the average barrel life of a 300WM? Whats the average barrel life of a 7/08?

Originally Posted by DDP

What point is that??? ohhh... it's that you have no idea what you're talking about. Your welcome. Eeeking out the 7/08 on the target range is one thing...

So it does, or does not, take a lot more bullet, a lot more powder, and a lot more recoil for a 308 to keep up with a 7mm?

Quote

Once again... the paper ballistic expert Idiot Card trups the actuall field experience. It's amazing to me how many internet long range experts there are. I watched no less than 5 guys, just like you Charles, try to hit a 20"x18" gong at 600 yards last night. They talked a lot of ballistic gobbledy gook, two of them even had "Ballistic Reticles"... three of them eventually hit the plate, but they couldn't do it consistently.

Oh damn! You called me out......

[Linked Image]

Give or take........

Originally Posted by DDP

You're post states that someone with a good scope and accurate rifle can easily shoot "the best bullets" and "the worst bullets" with equal accuracy at long range... does it not?

Rrreeeaaddd.... itttt.....reeeaaalll.......slooooowwwwww......thhiiisss.....tiimmmeeee.......

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One can as easily get a "rifle that is consistently accurate, a good LR scope, and the skill to use them" with the best bullet, as they can with the worst, so why would you would hamstring your efforts with a sup-par bullet....

1. Just because the sign says sniper... doesn't make you one!

2. OK... I re-read it... EASILY... BEST and WORST = in ACCURACY... does it... or does it no say that??????

3. No, the .308 will not hang with the 7/08... on PAPER TARGETS... in match type situations...this is true. BUT, the 7/08 will not hang with any of the big 7's or the big 30's... ON GAME ANIMALS... EVER! I don't recall being able to shoot a two sighter shots before a shot on an animal... maybe you can.

4. Have you, or have you not shot a big A-Max or a big Berger at a critter? I'd consider it a much bigger "hamstring" to shoot a bullet that blows around in the wind, than a big/high BC/high SD bullet that's already proven it can handle game up to elk with aplomb. But hey... you're the sniper.

Wow, is that all bergers? I need to know what bullet is doing that huge damage! thats exactly what I want to avoid like the plague!

THanks, Jeff

Sucks to be hamstrung like that... huh?

Since we are on the subject, Nosler's Shooters Pro Shop has 160-gn, 7mm Accubond 2nds for sale right now..

I keep waiting for the 200-gn 30 cals!

-jeff

are ya saying those wounds are accubombs? I gotta know cause I'm wanting to try something other than a tsx for some reason on deer, but I don't want more than caliber entry and double exit, not wasted hamburger like those!

Jeff

Mostly 178gr AMAX's with just enough 190, and 220gr SMK's for spice.... Closet was less than twenty yards, farthest was over 700......

The 30cal 178gr AMAX is the best "killing" bullet for deer, and easily the choice when something HAS to die. Keep it out of bone and your fine. Don't and.........

Thats about one seasons worth.... maybe. My computers being a butt right now, when I get it fixed I'd be happy to hang 30 or 40 more since I'm a "paper ballistic expert Idiot"......

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7mm's rock the 30 cals world in LR. Run your numbers to a 1,000 with like bullets and see the difference.

When I competed 1K BR between 2005 and 2007 in Tucson, the 30s spanked the 7s pretty consistently. The 7 WSM does show the most promise, but the 180 Berger may not be as good as the 168 Berger accuracy wise. Also, Bergers BCs seem overly optimistic. I shot metplat uniformed 220 SMKs (Initial BC over .6) from a 300 WSM and likely still hold the club light gun agg record, that I set and broke and set again--though I do expect that record to be soon broken, my bet is on the guy shooting the Partiot (short fat 30 cal) and 210 JLKs. the Tucson range has an almost constantly gusty quartering tailwind. If there ever is an Eastern style calm wind day, a 6.5 might spank everyone.............

I don't care what the drop is, but my combination of bullet and velocity yeilded abut 60" of drift at 1000 yds in a 10 mph crosswind. Extreme spreads of 11 fps didn't hurt anything either..........

To the OP, I'd pick the 300 Win mag over any 7 any day for long range animals.

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A 162gr AMAX penetrating the chest of an elk at 1,495fps, wont kill it?

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The 30cal 178gr AMAX is the best "killing" bullet for deer, and easily the choice when something HAS to die. Keep it out of bone and your fine. Don't and.........

Don't and what?

So which is it? The 28 cal. 162 or the 30 cal 178?

And your good enough to place bullets out of bone at 1000?

Quote

So the difference between 240grSMK and a 162gr AMAX is 40 grains?

So when did 240 SMK's come on the scene?

I thought we were comparing 7mm/162's/625BC to 30/208's/648BC

Ok, 46 grains.

I do appreciate your enthusiasm.

Jeff, I have no idea if those were Accubond wounds. I just was passing along some good bullets at $15/50!

Wow, ok no damn amax or smks then this year. Info much appreciated, I really wanted to run a heavy high BC 7mm... may have to default back to the tsx 150s unfortunately.

Jeff

From what I've seen of Accubond wounds (one deer at 80 yards, two elk at 300 yards), they don't do ANYTHING like that kind of destruction. I agree, that was kind of appalling.

Rost I would seriously give the Accu's a try. I have never EVER seen an accubond hole like that. My brother in law shot a 140 pound buck last year at 80 yards with one, with about a half inch entry and a 1 iinch exit, that was a 140 accubond. or 150 not sure. I know it was federal ammo though.

-By the way HOLY BLOOD SHOT MEAT BATMAN!

Congrats though!

Ill stick to my slow .45-70 on the other hand. Holy smokes...

FMP

I wish I'd realized, before I thought to sign up on the Campfire, how much everyone loves PICTURES. I shot a big blacktail buck right through the shoulder with an Accubond at the abovementioned 80 yards or so, and meat damage and bloodshot were completely reasonable, as was the exit hole after almost 2 feet of penetration.

I have a pic of me and buck, but I should have gone in the house, washed my hands, got out my camera, and taken a pic of the carcass when I had it all peeled out in my shop...

Oh well. They are great bullets in my opinion; they work really well. Not gonna blow up and wreck meat, and the terminal performance from a .338 at 300+ yards is impressive too- two bangflops for my pard Jerry.

Blaine, I understand that, though for discussion, what is the max range accuracy difference between 30cal and 7mm's, and what caliber holds the mile record right now?

Originally Posted by SU35

So which is it? The 28 cal. 162 or the 30 cal 178?

Apparently you suffer from the same comprehenson problem as DDP. However if you look at the top of a post, just right of center you can see who the post is addressed to......

Quote

And your good enough to place bullets out of bone at 1000?

Because of that comprehension problem, I'll make this one easy. Remembering what I wrote to your above question- rost495 asked what bullets were used to kill the deer in the pictures, and commented about the damage. My answer- 178gr AMAX, miss bone and your fine, hit bone and lots of tissue damage will occur. I could care less about hitting bone at 1,000 yards or 1 yard. 100% weight retention doesn't kill... Tissue damage does. AMAX's create a lot of tissue damage.

Quote

So when did 240 SMK's come on the scene?

I thought we were comparing 7mm/162's/625BC to 30/208's/648BC

Ok, 46 grains.

That reading comprehension thing again.... Reread the thread.

OTOH, I do like that you point out that it takes the same make 30cal bullet around 40gr more to match the 7mm's.....

Quote

I don't think we've called you out I think it's more like we've
smoked you out.

Really? I guess you did prove that a same/same 30cal bullet outflies a 7mm.... Or not. That 30cals- burn less powder, have less recoil, and better barrel life when loaded to match 7mm's flight..... Or not.

Feel free to hang a couple dozen pics of deer you've killed at LR.....

[Linked Image]

Should add, not a single one was via a 7mm....

rost, those aren't really average. Average with no large bones hit is probably around a 3in exit. If you want to shoot a bullet with a better BC then the Barnes, try the Bergers. They consistently penetrate 2-3 inches before upset, regardless of what the hit, then come unhinged. Very, very little lost meat.

Thanks for the showing the photo's, now I know what bullet not to use.

Looks like your screwed up a lot of doe's and fawns all about the size of a dog. Well done.

Anything with horns?

About 50% of the above, though kiling is killing, and the bullet doesn't know the difference. Of course one would have to do enough of it, to know that....

That last photo looks like a nice gut shot and then the next to last shows destroyed backstraps. Impressive and i take the norm for you.

Originally Posted by Charles_A

Blaine, I understand that, though for discussion, what is the max range accuracy difference between 30cal and 7mm's, and what caliber holds the mile record right now?

I don't think the max accuracy ranges will be that much different between the two, though I imagine something like a 240 SMK (BC .711) launched from a 30-378 would have the best chance if the load was found before the barrel wore out. It's competition would be what, a 180 Berger (BC .684) from a 7 RUM?

In 2005, I think the 7 WSM held the mile record--I am not sure who holds it now. Rgardless, a better test would be what round most consitently wins matches at 1 mile, and that will likely be the 408 CheyTac, or one of the other similar chamberings.

Before a 1K BR match, we had a 12" square piece of tractor blade painted bright green that we'd set up against a dirt bank just shy of 1000 yds. We called this the "gong" and it was for gettng guys close before they went to paper. At the club level, it could take a new shooter, or even an old shooter with a new combo, a LONG time to find paper without the gong.

I'd guess that 70% of the time my first shot was within a foot (horizontally) of the gong, and that would have been with the scope setting used at the last match. Vertical was usually within 6" of point of aim. In 1K BR you are constantly cranking the crosshairs during the sighter period to figure out the wind, and then the scope stays set for the record group, usually shot as rapidly as one can single feed the ammo.

However, 30% of the time the shot could be off horizontally by as much as 2 feet. Now if this happens when shooting from a bench at a known distance, in a field condition that problem would be greatly amplified. Point is that ANY first round hit at 1000 yds on a deer is a decent shot.

I think that is something a guy has to be prepared to accept when shooting deer at very long ranges. You don't have any wind flags and reading mirage--if there is even any mirage, is a fine art. Fortunately, deer are easy to kill and don't require perfect shot placement to take them down.

Those are exits, as insertions come from a variety of angles.... All but three were DRT's and the farthest one traveled less then 40yds. Again, feel free to put up 2 or 3 dozen pics of your deer killed at LR.....

Since pics are being used as a way to establish credibility:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Blaine

"I think the 7 WSM held the mile record"

In a Savage no less..... grin.

When you go past a K, is when the really big 30cal and .338 bullets start to shine. There's no argument from me there. I've a soft spot for the 300WM, and it's sorta become like the 308Win in that they are easy to build, load data is well known, and they're reletivly easy to shoot. However objectivly, for LR hunting, the 7mm's take and require less to accomplish the same task.

Sucks..... grin. With?

Yeah but the 30s are better for elk..........

Here's a pic of the deer I am going to kill later this fall at long range:

That's a keeper for sure...................

300 mag all the way 7mm is a dang gopher gun! LOL why settle for less?

7 mag hands down
I keep my 300 for elk

Quote

feel free to put up 2 or 3 dozen pics of your deer killed at LR....

This one was killed at 300 yards using a 338 win mag.
[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_1029.jpg[/img][/img]

Every one of these deer were taken opening day by individual hunters.

The one I took was at over 400 yards with a 280 RCBS.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/Picture032.jpg[/img][/img]
This one was taken at 520 yards using a 260 Rem

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/deer%20hunt%2006/P9160062.jpg[/img][/img]

This elk was taken at 650 yards with a 300 win mag.
The bear was taken at 400 yards using a 280 IMP.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_0092.jpg[/img][/img]

I killed this elk at over 500 paces with a 264 win mag.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_1587.jpg[/img][/img]

And here's a pic of a couple of Tennessee hunters. The one on the right is named Charlie, REALLY!
My cousin buys and ships them from TN and then trains them for Outfitters in MT.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_1594.jpg[/img][/img]

Your a good guy Charlie! You love to hunt with passion.

I like that!

Originally Posted by highridge1

300 mag all the way 7mm is a dang gopher gun! LOL why settle for less?

TFF! This whole thread has been really entertaining. I couldn't understand half of it

Originally Posted by highridge1

300 mag all the way 7mm is a dang gopher gun! LOL why settle for less?

TFF! This whole thread has been really entertaining. I couldn't understand half of it

All taken with a 300WM A 200yd muley [Linked Image]

Montana Whitetail a little over 400yds [Linked Image]

Nevada Muley, [Linked Image]

one more from Nevada Taken on the same ridge... [Linked Image]

Swift sciroccos and Accubonds were the projectiles! Tough to beat a 300!!

Originally Posted by Ackleyfan

Tough to beat a 300!!

Yes, it is!No doubt a big 30 is a very good thing

Sorry, but...

Those of you you that have known me for the years that I have posted on this thread I think will know that I very very seldom criticize anyone's hunting methods, caliber choice or or anything else on here.
This is more than I can stomach though.
Charles A has posted pictures of many many deer that he has shot at long range. The pictures show deer shot in nearly every body part possible. That is pretty much conclusive proof that he is not always hitting the deer in the heart lung area. Those deer have been hit with shots that were left, right, up and down.
It would be very very probable that other shots that went left, right, low or high took off legs, jaws and other body parts that the deer dragged of to die a lingering death.
Many of the deer that are pictured here have a substantial amount of the meat destroyed. To continually hunt with methods and equipment that destroys much of the meat shows a huge disrepect for the animal and for the traditions of hunting. It is nothing more than treating deer like dump rats. It's thrill killing and wasting a fine game animal.
This is not in any way a condemnation of long range hunting. There are people that engage in that that I respect. This is a condemnation of slob hunting.

Fred

+1 for the 7mm

Royce, Someone had to say it, and you said it well,, We all have had a bullet go high, left, right etc and ended up with a wicked hit,, but to post so many of these and seem proud of it makes much fuel for anyone against hunting or shooting long range,, makes toting a 99 .300 Savage refreshing in a way,, I grew up respecting the animals but still love them next to the mashed potatoes,, I would have liked to see those kind of hits pictured on coyotes instead.

Royce: I agree. Good post.Some discretion would be nice here. The reality is when we hunt, we kill things.We have an obligation to kill cleaner,I like to think.Everyone makes a mistake now and then,but I think a deer deserves a better end if we can at all help it.

Is there something inherently hard about understanding that entrances can come from a variety of angles and that exits will follow suit? Out of the last 70 or so deer shot with LR bullets, which is what I was questioned about, all but three were DRT. As in straight down, no twitching, no rolling, no blinking. I have lost exactly one deer that shed a drop of blood... When I was 13, using a Corlokt. Those are the interesting pics. There are several times as many that look "normal".

Dakotakid,
You posted- "We all have had a bullet go high, left, right etc and ended up with a wicked hit"

How many deer have you killed? What's the percentage of shots that didn't pop lungs, or CNS?

There is two pictures above of shots that didn't involve lungs or CNS. Of the two, one was DRT, one went less then 40yds before dieing. Neither shot was over 100 yards.

There are some times I average more deer killed in a week then most kill in a lifetime. I'm batting a very high average of 1 shot kills..........

Charles A- perhaps I missed this somewhere in here, wouldn't be the first time.

But why are you shooting so many deer, I mean how many can you eat in a year?

Just curious?

Dober

Charles
What is the point of shooting a deer and ruining most of the meat, other than just thrill killing?
At least one of those deer was just a fawn, and others didn't look much bigger.
I shoot a lot of does, but there are a lot of people that appreciate the meat, and they get all I can muster.
I don't think you have earned much respect here with your in your face bragadocio and gut shooting fawns.

+1 to what Royce said.

Charles A Ive been hunting a long time and in many states for big game, I have taken my share of whitetail and Mulies; lopes and several elk,trapped and hunted fox and coyotes for money back in my younger days in N Dakota, I have seen a lot of animals killed,, you just wouldnt see me taking, let alone posting pictures of a botched shot, Face it you are giving ethical hunters a sour look. Ive seen enough of the I I I, me me me look what I did in my time, I'm sure this will lead to some sort of rant but it is what it is, and you started it,, so just let it go

I did crop damage for a while, however now I kill the deer I do for several reasons. Primarily- because I like to and I can. Unlike most I would rather spend more time doing, hunting and killing (I know that must come as a shock to most that a successful hunt involves something dieing), then endless talk of rifles, or trying to get the last .00004873 of an inch reduction in group size.

We are allowed 3 deer a day for four-months of the year. Between Amber and I we average around 30 a year. We'll keep seven or eight, and the rest goes to friends/family or the homeless shelter. Not a one gets wasted.

Quote

Not a one gets wasted.

Originally Posted by Royce

Charles
What is the point of shooting a deer and ruining most of the meat, other than just thrill killing?

What type of killing do you do? I would assume if you hunt an animal and then eventually kill one, you do it out of enjoyment, correct? So then it could be characterized as thrill killing, no?

Quote

I don't think you have earned much respect here with your in your face braggadocio and gut shooting fawns.

If one comes to the internet for respect, they are sad indeed... No braggadocio. It was questioned, then stated that I had no experience shooting animals with LR bullets, specifically AMAX's or Berger's.

I do find it slightly humorous, that first one has little to no experience with something, and then has to much and is labeled a "slob", and the inevitable "what do you do with all that meat! Certainly you can't eat it all!".

Some enjoy actually hunting, more then talking about it.......

Charles-where do you live, the south somewhere's I'd imagine?

Thx
Dober

(you ever burn H1000 in your 300's)

The man was asked for experience with LR bullets for hunting and he gave it and now he is attacked for it. WOW

jwp

He wasn't criticized for giving his experience. He was criticized for shooting deer at ranges past where he could place his shots with any reasonable amount of precision, and he was criticized for the wanton waste of meat that resulted from that practice, and he was criticized for the very high probabilty that he left lots of deer staggering around with legs blown off.

Mark, home is in Tn.

I've used H1000 in a 300WM and a 300Ultra, though it's been a while. Now the 300WM's use R22 almost exclusively, and the 300Ultra is a 300 Tomahawk that gets Retumbo.

Bet this can beat any Barne's thread...... grin.

Originally Posted by Royce

jwp

He wasn't criticized for giving his experience. He was criticized for shooting deer at ranges past where he could place his shots with any reasonable amount of precision, and he was criticized for the wanton waste of meat that resulted from that practice, and he was criticized for the very high probabilty that he left lots of deer staggering around with legs blown off.

I'm a bit amazed, but not surprised, at some peoples comprehension level. So once again- only two of the pictured deer did not receive a bullet that involved lungs or CNS, via entrance or exit. Since all but three DRT'd, I'd say "a reasonable amount of precision" wasn't a problem. No wounded deer. No deer with blown off legs staggering around.

If it is not a comprehension problem, then I am unsure why you would state the above even after I addressed it?

For those wondering, I continued to use the bullets because one dead deer tells you nothing about terminal performance, just like one shot tells you nothing about accuracy. It takes a lot of shots to get an idea of group size, and it takes a lot of shots to get an idea of terminal performance.

Guys,

I don't see Charles as a bad guy here. Crud, I once muffed a shot at 40 yds, and most of you here have done something similar if you'd admit it. Does it make it better because I took a shot I shouldn't have at 40 yds vs 800?

Also, how many of us have had DRTs with deer for less than perfectly placed shots? To be honest, it's not that uncommon.

And how many happily shoot prairrie dogs or sage rats just for the fun of it? Sure, we pat ourselves on the back because we are helping the rancher, but our primary motivation was helping the rancher--and not hitting and killing little critters--we'd set out traps and/or poison.

I think Charles LR shooting is fine. Don't do it if you don't like it, but only those who have never made a bad shot have any room to criticize him.

Spot on Blaine....

I wouldn't question his longrange shooting,but photo's displaying kill shots this way really should be kept to ones self,surely you should have some "tasteful" pics to show of your LR deer hunts exspecially since your harvesting 30+ a year!

7mmRM all the way.

Define long range...for some guys that is 400 yards, to others it is 1600 yards.

I use a load in my 7 mag of 73.0g of R#25 in a Rem Case with a WLRM primer with a 154g Hornady SST at 3200 fps out of my Rem 700 LSS.

I had a custom 300 WM with a 26" fluted #8 taper with a muzzle break with the 180g Noslers loaded at 3100 fps. Load fell apart between 300-400 yards, blew in the wind much more and dropped much more than my 7 Mag with much less recoil.

Unless I were hunting elk, no more 300 WM for me.

Load fell apart? How about trying a different load!

Charles
It's interesting here that you post the following on 8/20/08

"have lost exactly one deer that shed a drop of blood... When I was 13, using a Corlokt."

and then over on the forum As Real As it Gets you post the following;

"I shot a 4pt a few years back at 525 yards with a 190gr SMK out of a 300Win. He was broadside and dropped at the shot. About the time I set up, he started moving. By the time a got back behind the gun he was already up and heading back to cover. I was a bit dumbfounded as he moved between the trees, because he had 4 inch diameter exit on the offside. You could see the rear edge of the scapula......

Long story short, we didn't find the deer until a couple days later. The video's interesting..."

Please explain this discrepancy which would apparently call your ability to recall past events with a great deal of repeatability.
I think most of us consider a deer lost when it's is not found before the meat is ruined.

Fred

Someone please tell me what a 7mm Mag will do that a .30-06 loaded properly with 165 gr. boattails won't do. I've taken several deer between 400 and 500 yds. with a .30-06, no complaints. Enough power, and regardless of how fast the cartridge shoots, you still have to PRACTICE at the ranges you intend to shoot at, period.
Selmer

Selmer
When you get the answer, please fill me in, too. Everytime I have tried to "improve" on the 30/06, the further I got away from it, the faster I seemed to go backwards. I have used the 270 more than any other cartridge, but cannot say its an improvement on th 06. I used the 7 Magnum for a while, and never saw any increased killing power over the 30/06 or 270. It cost more to shoot, and kicked more, and was fussier to load for, I thought.
Cartridges like the 308, 7X57, 30/06 and other that were developed by the military have had the benefit of the most extensive and expensive testing availble. They feed well, don't burn out barrels quickly, don't foul a lot.
Of course, it only took me 45 years to get this through my head. If I was 25 years old today, I'd be out there detaching my retinas behind something like a 338 Lapua.

Fred

338 WM is the most reliable Hitter of Things Far Away (HTFW) that I've seen so far.

What was the question again? :-)

Originally Posted by Jeff_O

338 WM is the most reliable Hitter of Things Far Away (HTFW) that I've seen so far.

What was the question again? :-)

Hey bud, wait till you turn it into a 340 and run the 300 SMK's...then you have something!

Dober

Why nor a 338 RUM then? It's worth a good 150 fps over the Wby.........

That'll work too, then again so will the 338/378 KT...

Dober

Yeah but I hear the KT kicks.............

Dat's just a nasty rumor started by those that haven't used it...grins

It's more like a bump than a kick.

Dober

Originally Posted by Blaine

Why nor a 338 RUM then? It's worth a good 150 fps over the Wby.........

And speaking of 338 RUM's, the ones that I've worked with have flat out shot.

But then again I've found the 33's the be the easiest ones out there to get to shoot.

Dober

A bump like falling off a 30 ft cliff and landing on your shoulder?

I actually found my 338 RUM to be more comfortable than my 340 Wby even with 10 ft lbs more recoil, but that was because the Wby was in an HS precision stock, which is about the worst choice for a heavier recoiling rifle.......

Stocks and how they fit people big time comes into handling recoil.

Weight of the rig comes into play as well. My first .340 was on my old 700 and with it's Schneider tube cut to 23" it came in at 8.25 lbs with a 3-10 Leo on it. My bud couldn't understand what I meant about the extra bump from the 250's till he shot mine. His was 9.25lb's with a 2-8 on it. The extra pound no doubt make a difference.

That tube was my first Schneider tube and it would consistently do 5 in .75" or less and man did I ever pound heck out of game with it. My buds in elk camp came to call it "Thunder"...

All I know is that it was one heck of a long range chuck rifle.

Long live the big 33's!

Dober

The 338 Lapua, 338 RUM and 338/378 KT are all about the same case capacity. The 338 Lapau can be driven faster because it is CIP'd to 68,ooo PSI and the brass in the 338KT and 338 RUM can't stand more than 62 to 64,000 PSI pressure. The 338 KT is a shortened 378 Weatherby case and the Weatherby case is a 416 Rigby with a belt added

The guys I know who have ran the Lapau's haven't been super impressed with the speeds they got from them. I've never owned one but have ran them a bit.

I still likey the .340 the best of the lot but twer I starting today I'd most likely go RUM.

Dober

I have ran the 250 SMK's out of my 338 Lapua to 3197 FPS average with 95 grains of R-25 that's moving pretty good IMHO. I am currently shooting the 300 SMK at 2800 FPS with 92 Grains of H-1000. Retumbo and US-869 will get more velocity with the 300 grain SMK than will H-1000. H-1000 Is a very consistent pwder and load in this combo.

Quote

.......brass in the 338KT and 338 RUM can't stand more than 62 to 64,000 PSI pressure

I don't know that I agree with that. I personally know of 340 Wby brass that was tested at 74,000 PSI and showed no pressure signs, and of 30-06 Remmy brass tested to 80,000 PSI showing no pressure signs. My experience and research would lead me to believe that both Wby and Rem brass in most chamberings will go 70,000 PSI plus...........

I am not saying that it can't happen, but on average Norma brass is softer than other.

From the Lapua web site

"The reason for .416 Rigby case being a good prototype and parent case, but not the actual choice for the new caliber case was quite clear. For the .338/416 cartridge the velocity of a 16,2 g bullet was 915m/s. A completely different case designed for a higher pressure level was clearly needed. The original Rigby .416 case had a rough 3000 Bar pressure case. The new cartridge was designed for over 4000 Bar pressures. The original pressure definition based on the deformation of the copper pellet method - the crusher method - was specified in the beginning into 56000 CUPs (about 3900 bar). When CIP moved to the piezo transducer period, a mistake was made somewhere resulting in the pressure medium for .338 Lapua Magnum to stay in the 4700 Bar level, even thought the correct level is in the 4200 Bars."

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=889

Speaking of stocks and recoil, I was once again astounded today at how LITTLE my .325 Montana kicks.

And speaking of H-S stocks, the one on my 300 WM Sendero does indeed jolt me pretty good.

Originally Posted by keith

Define long range...for some guys that is 400 yards, to others it is 1600 yards.

I use a load in my 7 mag of 73.0g of R#25 in a Rem Case with a WLRM primer with a 154g Hornady SST at 3200 fps out of my Rem 700 LSS.

I had a custom 300 WM with a 26" fluted #8 taper with a muzzle break with the 180g Noslers loaded at 3100 fps. Load fell apart between 300-400 yards, blew in the wind much more and dropped much more than my 7 Mag with much less recoil.

Unless I were hunting elk, no more 300 WM for me.

Nothing wrong with a 300 Win Mag as this 300 yard group will attest

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by jwp475

I am not saying that it can't happen, but on average Norma brass is softer than other.

From the Lapua web site

"The reason for .416 Rigby case being a good prototype and parent case, but not the actual choice for the new caliber case was quite clear. For the .338/416 cartridge the velocity of a 16,2 g bullet was 915m/s. A completely different case designed for a higher pressure level was clearly needed. The original Rigby .416 case had a rough 3000 Bar pressure case. The new cartridge was designed for over 4000 Bar pressures. The original pressure definition based on the deformation of the copper pellet method - the crusher method - was specified in the beginning into 56000 CUPs (about 3900 bar). When CIP moved to the piezo transducer period, a mistake was made somewhere resulting in the pressure medium for .338 Lapua Magnum to stay in the 4700 Bar level, even thought the correct level is in the 4200 Bars."

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=889

Norma IS softer, but even soft stuff will hold 70,000 PSI......

Nice shooting JWP, heck I'm kind of like Cooper in that I'd be more than happy to do that @ 50...

Dober

Be that as it may the Lapua case is designed for more pressure than the other cases

Thanks, Dober...

I do agree that Lapua cases will hold more pressure than Norma cases, though Rem cases are very close to Laupa in strength.

Almost like I got a fan.... or stalker.

Seriously, are you twelve? You can't discuss 308 vs. 7mm, AMAX vs. Berger, or what either doe's to animals at LR, but you want to question how many deer I kill or how I do it? Grow up dude.

Nevertheless........

Originally Posted by Royce

Charles
Please explain this discrepancy
Fred

There is no discrepancy. The deer was in fact not lost. It made it into a very big brier thicket, which also happened to be the bedding area for a potential B&C, and we nearly cut the entire thing down with machete's before we found him.

If you killed 20-30 deer a year would you have spent a couple prime hunting days looking for a dink 4-point?

Since you don't like how those deer were killed, and that some where does..........

[Linked Image]

Though admittedly, one was a midget, and a treestand was involved......

Hmm...a midget and a tree stand not sure I wanna hear that story, might be more info than I need....

Dober

I thought they made midget-tossing illegal?

Damn liberals anyway with all their rules 'n $hit...

Charles
You are not only a slob hunter, you are a liar.

Originally Posted by Royce

Charles
You are not only a slob hunter, you are a liar.

And exactly how is that?

Originally Posted by Royce

Charles
You are not only a slob hunter, you are a liar.

It's obvious that you have an agenda. These BS attacks are not nessecary

Royce, I guess I don't feel so stupid then! I just turned 29 and I've determined that unless I'm going chasing big bears, the .30-06 is all the punishment I need. I'm now into chasing "normal" range deer with a .260 Remington and 6PPC, although I would not hesitate to shoot a deer at 400 yds with the .260 Rem. 200 yds is the outside for my 6PPC and 85 gr. Partitions, kinda like an extended range pistol!

Selmer

That too funny brad!

That is a good one, Brad!