What's the deal people? I have and love my 7mm08, and it works well for all I ask.
6.5x47 lapua
6.5 creed more
260rem
Etc.


What are the differences between these rounds, and why would you use one over a more 'common' caliber. (The reason of I want to is acceptable. Some folks like to be different)

Does it have many advantages? Other than expensive brass?


Planning a lightweight walking rifle build, and want a mild recoiling rifle. Just feeling out options. Thoughts?

This will help you...

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

If you also add the 6.5x55 into your mix there are 4 cartrdges with basically the same case capacity, not sure why exactly. I like the 260, 6.5 Creedmoore and 6.5x55 in that order, have no use at all for a 6.5x47. The reason I went with the 260 currently and also 6.5x55 in the past is they are light kicking, usually very accurate, you can get bullets that work great from varmints to moose, high sectional density means deep penetration and high b.c's.

And I like to be different

Very interesting and informative article; just to summarize the article by his final remarks
"In the end, neither of these new upstart cartridges did anything for me that the .260 didn't. With the new Reloder 17 powder, I am now launching the 139gr Scenar at just over 2900 fps from my 26" Rock Creek barrel."

The sectional density and BC aspects are what intrigue me. Can't imagine I would shoot to such an alarming frequency that the availability of components was my determining factor.

very nice article

It is a good article, but I don't see that it answered the OP's question - What can you do with one of those four 6.5mm's that you can't do w/ a 7mm-08. It's clear the 6.5's offer some advantages over the 308Win, but I can't tell what they can do that a 7mm-08 can't do as well or better, except offer a small fraction less recoil than the 7mm-08.

David

Define better...

I love my 6.5's. I have a Swede and a .264WM. Each serves a different role. Do they offer anything over the 7mm-08 or 7mm RM? Sure, they satisfy my curiosity and itch to own one. Beyond that you are getting into ".270 vs .30-06" territory...or ".308 vs 7mm-08". Besides better ballistic coefficients, just pick the cartridge that turns your crank and have fun. You're talking bullets that differ in diameter by only HUNDREDTHS or even THOUSANDTHS of an inch.

The game won't notice if you shot it with a .260 or a 7mm-08.

WE

I'm not getting into a pizzin match - I brought it up because I had the same question. To me it's a little different than the 270/06 argument. The 7mm-08 has some clear advantages over the 308 when it comes to ballistics. Its mostly gack if you don't shoot over 500 yards, but it is real.

The 6.5's have the same advantages over the 308 and the same conclusions - its a small advantage and in the big picture isn't that big of a deal, but it is a real advantage. The question is do the small 6.5's offer any advantage over a 7mm-08? I can't see that they do. Given current bullet selection, I would think the 7mm-08 has the tiniest of advantages.

I'm all about trying different stuff and scratching itches. I've got a 264WM waiting to be shot right now. I've even contemplated getting a 25-06 just because... I think the OP is asking do the 6.5's offer anything over his 7mm-08's or is this just folks enjoying playing with something new. I think it's the latter, but am open to being shown I'm mistaken.

Regards,

David

Why is that? Ever owned or shot one? Curious.

Never owned one, it has the same performance as the others but has expensive hard to find brass. Just personal preference.

If you want to know what the deal is, just check the equipment list at any major long range, precision, or tactical match. You won't find any competitors using the 7mm-08.

Do you think this is happenstance or for good reason?

Was just curious. I have a 260 and a gun building friend has built several 6.5x47 Lapuas and has had excellent results. Lapua brass is more expensive, but I have found the quality and uniformity to be worth the expense. Lately the WW or RP brass we have been getting has been poor at best.

Out of curiosity, how many .308's to .260's do you see?

The answer - if you consider "shoot ability" or low kick, and High BC or least drop to be important as most LR shooters do, the the 6.5 mm is about the Ideal projectile size.

After this it's easy to see that most makers are competing to see who can make the best 6.5 delivery cartridge.

Spot

You won't see many .308's. The 6.5's are predominant. At the PRS Finale, the top 50 shooters in the Nation, the 6.5 Creedmoor was the most used cartridge by far. The .260 was next.

The .308 is a great cartridge and very accurate, it just gives up too much in the wind drift department. It's a real handicap in matches where first round hits are the only thing that's scored.

I've seen great performances with the .308 with a shooter who happens to be "on" that day, but in general they won't keep up.

So that brings us back to the OP's question.

Why wouldn't you choose the chambering that will most likely give you first round hits, even for hunting?

Seems to be plenty of 6mm's in there, too. Of course, they're only concerned with getting hits, not so much what happens after the hit...

Please explain how competition is relevant to this discussion?

Already conceded the slight decrease in recoil in my 1st post. Aside from that that, what does one of the above mentioned 6.5's offer that can't be duplicated or exceeded by a 7mm-08?

David

Not much but if they sold them I would rather have a 6.5-06 as the exterior ballistics are better.

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference between the two, especially in how I will use it.
Guess for my money, I'd rather load two 7mm08's than dick with multiple calibers.


Certainly these 6.5 are interesting though.

I thought it was obvious, but I guess not to some

In competition, you generally enter to try to win. To win, you and your equipment have to be at the top of your game. If you are allowed to choose equipment that will enhance your chances of winning, you should. This includes choosing a cartridge/bullet combination that enables you to hit targets at a higher percentage of success than other available choices.

Same goes with long range hunting matching cartridge to game

You asked "what's up with all the 6.5mm craze", and there's your answer.

Funny thing is I am using Lapua brass in my new 260 and it is definitely nice stuff. I have had both good and bad lots of R-P 260 brass in the past, I do like that it is much more common than the 6.5x47 and I can go down to our local store and buy factory ammunition if neccessary. One thing is for sure, all the smaller 6.5's are great performers and hardly kick at all.

Pal of mine is a Marine armorer,and a very good smith who has worked for some "name" outfits building good tactical style rifles;gets in plenty of LR shooting...He likes the 6.5 Creedmoor right now and told me recently they were doing some LR shooting with it against 308's...he told me the wind values can be halved with the 6.5's out to 1000 yards.

Another club member and friend for 30+ years shoots on an elite International team with a certain ballistician and bullet engineer (frequently quoted here and in other LR circles)....they will be shooting in SA this year. Despite this extensive "experience",my pal's two principal hunting rifles are a 270 Winchester and a 300 Win Mag.

His views on all this is that a lot of experience at LR shooting in actual competition has demonstrated to him how quickly things can go "wrong" for the very best LR shooters, and he considers LR shooting of BG animals a dicey business at best;not the purview of anyone without a LOT of experience...in his view most don't really qualify even if they think they do.If they were really that good at it, they'd be top ranked competition shooters themselves..

The problem I see with a lot of this LR business is that a lot of the advise about LR and tactical shooting,at animals,seems to come from some people who have done comparatively little BG hunting.The other problem I see is that I am not completely swayed that many of these bullets best suited for real long range shooting are the best answer for killing animals under ALL conditions they are hunted... still ain't completely on board the notion of shooting animals with Match bullets.

Getting back to the OP's original question, for BG hunting the notion that a 7/08 somehow takes a back seat to a 6.5 of similar capacity, is silly.

I have no 7-08s, but many 6.5s. I won't say it kills better, but the 6.5 is a personal preference. I like it and it works for me. Shoot what you like, not what others tell you is better.

Actually, I wasn't the OP but yes I was asking.

The 6.5's have a small degree less recoil than a 7mm-08. Shooting many thousands of rounds per year, many hundreds per competition day, its easy to see that any small advantage might give an edge in a highly competitive event. The recoil reduction of the 6.5's vs 7mm-08 doesn't provide any real advantage to me, its too small a difference to matter unless I were shooting the round count of the top competitors and clearly I'm not.

Other than minor recoil reduction is there anything that the 6.5's do better than a 7mm-08? Answers like "it gives them an edge" = you don't have any idea. Its the equivalent of telling someone they should drive an Indy car to work, 'cause that's what all the top drivers are using.

David

How about a .600 BC at 3000fps? I do have an idea......and it's not a guess.

That's Greek to them as well Pat.

BobinNH,



This is not necessarily true.

When I hunted jack rabbits with my .454 I started hitting everything I shot at. This included off hand out to 130 yards to 140 yards on the first round. My longest first round hit was 206 long paces. To check the length of my steps I passed off to the 300 yard butts at the range. On the way out, which is a slight grade up, I counted 303 steps. On the way back it was 299 steps. I got where I would not fire at a jack rabbit unless it was about 100 yards away or running or both. My load of 240 grain Freedom Arms bullets averaged 2,014 feet per second, so I didn't have to lead very much.

I went to join the fun of the silhouette boys. I started with the chickens. As I got into my normal shooting position with my left foot way out pointed at the target so it would not come off the ground, my right foot about 90* to that, my arm against my chest and the bottom of the pistol grip laying on the fat part of my left palm (kinda a one handed grip on the .454), someone stopped me before I could fire.
"You can't use an artificial rest," he informed.
"What are you talking about?" I asked.
"Well you have your arm against your chest."
"That is not artificial. That's me!" I tried to explain to this official. "That's how I hold this when I hunt."
"But it is still against the rules," he informed.
Since I came to have fun and compete and not join some Gestapo type organization, without a word I unloaded the .454, inserted the snapcaps, put it back into its case and left.

By the way the 200 yard rams looked HUGE compared to a 200 long step jack rabbit. And they were just sitting there waiting to be "killed".

Pat

Thanks for your response. Which combination is getting that?

Regards

David

That load is the 130gr JLK that I shoot in both of my .260's.
Lapua brass
H4350
Tula large rifle primer

Don't get me wrong, I love the 7/08 and think it's one of the best, most efficient big game cartridges out there. I hunt with a couple different friends that shoot 7/08's and 162gr Amax bullets and have seen them make some amazing shots.

Yeah...everyone on here not shooting a 6.5 is suddenly clueless

Everyone else is "stupid"....gimme a break.

How many rifles do you own in 6.5?

pat: None.

Yet.

As to recoil: I would think a 7/08 shooting the 120 gr TTSX would recoil LESS than any 6.5 shooting a 129-142 gr anything. Am I wrong in my thinking? I too, am on the fence when it comes to which round to pick for my 7lb sneakin' rifle. One of these 2 will be the one. I'm not arguing either way. Been an interesting conversation. Personally, I've always been taught that frontal area means something when it comes to critters, both kill with great efficiency, both have great bullets to choose from, both have genetics bred from competition, same brass and primers. For hunting purposes... The question seems academic. Choose the one that makes you feel all warm inside, then go shoot stuff.

You said that, not me.

The point is if you don't understand the simple concept of why competitive shooters use cartridges that make it easier to hit what they're shooting at in all conditions, you won't understand what is significant about being able to fire a bullet with a BC of .600 at 3000 fps

120 TTSX at 3100 fps drifts 94" in a 10mph wind at 1000 and has a recoil in ft-lbs of 13.79

140 A-Max at 2800 fps drifts 63" in a 10mph wind at 1000 and has recoil energy of 13.99 ft-lbs

I don't think it's about understanding, as I'm quite sure Bob understands the usefulness of a high BC. Now, use the specs from true hunting bullets. Barnes TSX, from the website, .264 vs .284, based on SD's as close to. .250 as possible. They were within .030 on BC and within 100fps on velocity. There's that much difference in barrels. Basically, without super slick competition bullets they stand shoulder to shoulder. (.260 vs 7/08). Same thing... But different.

Pat's hunting load with his .260:

130gr JLK at 3000 drifts 52" at 1000 in 10mph.

I don't consider that "shoulder to shoulder" with the 7mm-08 that drifts almost twice as much.

....but it's a free country and everyone can do what they like!

Dam you guys. Read Scenar's thread .260 vs .308 100 times and decided to go with the .308 since I already was set up for .308. Now you have me wanting a .260.

RC

I'm not trying to argue with you, just making observations. Does all this math really bear out any real world differences while hunting? 300 yards and under. (Real world, avg shooter hunting) I truly get that the 6.5 is super efficient and comp guys love it. But I'm not carrying a 26" barreled SA around in the woods. My 26" barrel is on a 7RM pushing those magic 162's at over .600/3050fps. I'm in the process of planning/ordering components for my new build, MCM Hunter edge, 22" rem factory contour(whoever has one in stock), 2.5-8x36, right at 7# hopefully. .260 or 7/08. Using hunting bullets.

At 300 it matters little, but this is the Long Range Forum, so my input is based there.

I have a 7# rifle like you're talking about with a 24" barrel. It's chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor for long range capability. If you are thinking about a new rifle, why not choose the cartridge that won't handicap you at long range? If you already have a 7mm-08 and only shoot 300 yards, you're good to go!

I'm hung up on the idea of using target bullets for hunting. I see it all the time, I just can't bring myself to do it.

I'd be interested in the specs on that rifle if you don't mind.

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5309041/26

Scroll down the page a bit....

The Creed is a Hornady thing right? Brass issues? What's the biggest diff b/w it and the .260/260ai

rc: Oh...make no mistake ...I do understand completely.
You may not have meant it to sound the way it did,but that's the way it came out.

Just because I don't predicate my choice of hunting calibers and bullets based on what match shooters use,doesn't mean I have no undertstanding of "why" they use what they use.

For over 40 years I've been a member of a club dominated by match shooters,many of whom can and do compete nationally and internationally and do pretty well no matter where they go...from Perry to Quantico, Palma matches in Canada,Australia, etc....some of these guys are personal friends of many years. I know what they shoot and why.I would not want any of them shooting at me at any distance.

In the aggragate they are outstanding shots....some are hunters with some experience.But none have a lot.

Across the board, they are generally not the right people to take advise from when it comes to cartridges and bullets for BG hunting,for a host of reasons too numerous to bother with...I would a bit rather take my advise about such things from people who in the aggragate have seen thousands of BG animals killed...folks on here like Johnny B,Phil Shoemaker,JJ Hack, RinB....and a good many others I know personally with high carcass counts.My own experience does not match theirs...but I have been around a little bit myself here and there,and seen enough in the way of calibers and bullets at work, to know a 6.5 is not the last word on BG calibers.

Of the people I know who have shot a LOT of animals in varied places and continents under widely varied conditions,only one used a 6.5 of any type(John Burns).....the rest are predominantly 270,7mm and 30 caliber shooters.And by an overwhelming majority.

In general, and to be honest, I don't find a lot of the advise given out by avid match shooters particularly good advise for general purpose BG hunting.The two guys I mentioned in the post above are both very knowledgeable and skilled rifle shooters.....in the aggragate I doubt they have 20 animals between them....one killed an elk about 20 years ago in Colorado(the only one he ever shot I think)at about 550-600 yards,the longest shot he has ever made on an animal...he used a 270 Winchester that he bought from me.

I really can't take seriously any notion that someone armed with a 7/08 vs a 6.5 Creedmoor(say), is somehow severely handicapped for general BG hunting..

Nor can I accept the rather obvious implication that anyone not shooting a .600 BC bullet at 3000 fps is somehow clueless and the discussion is far over their heads,ie, we are stupid, lack experiece, and the match shooters have all the answers.......these kinds of notions are precisely among the reasons I don't listen too hard at all to match/tactical shooters when it comes to bullet/caliber choices for BG hunting across the board.

Swift makes their Scirocco II in 6.5 130gr. It boasts a .571 BC. Berger's 140gr Hunting VLD in 6.5 has a .612 BC. For the past two years I've shot and hunted with Berger's 130gr Hunting VLD and have a nice string of one shot kills, including an elk this past fall at 697 yards, all with a lightweight .260.

Since we're talking Swampworks JLK bullets, why not compare apples to apples and run the 7-08 with the 168gr JLK at 2750fps? That's a 0.690 BC at 2750fps. If you compare wind drift out to 1 mile on JBM, they are nearly identical, but the 7-08 actually drifts a bit less at extended ranges.

2750 with a 168 looks pretty optomistic out of the 7mm-08.

Hodgdon's reloading center shows max loads at 2650

If a .600 BC bullet drifts 1" less at 300 yards than a bullet with less efficiency, it could be the difference of putting that bullet in front of the diaphram, instead of behind it.....meaning the animal dies right there, or you go looking for it and maybe not recover it. I'm not saying 6.5's are the "world beater" of big game hunting rifles, that would be ludicrous. I'm just stating what I've seen in competiton and in the hunting fields here in the west....take it for what it's worth.

Well, that's true. But so does 3000 with a 130. Hodgdon shows 2875fps shooting a 125 out of the .260.

I went into the newest edition of QL and punched in 60k psi for both cartridges, both using JLK bullets (130 and 168). It showed 3000fps with the .260 and 2750fps with the 7-08.

Also, I'm not suggesting that the 7-08 is superior in every way. I'm just trying to keep it real.

I definitely see some advantages of the .260 over the 7.

That is pretty much all that I am saying as well.I have no reason to doubt your obervations, experiences and skill sets.

I guess all said and done, trigger time and boot leather will trump everything else. I'd probably kill damn near as many critters with my old .270 and a 6X Leupold as I do with the equipment I run now......although there are a few old giant mule deer bucks and whopper black bears that stood off just out of range with no chance to close the distance. they would be on the wall instead of ingrained in my memory.

I'm guilty of being a "tinkerer"....always in search of a better mousetrap. I figure it keeps me young.....and low on money....grin!

Me too. The advantages are minimal, and like I said, If you already have the 7, no need to change really for hunting.

If you have neither and are gonna choose however...

BobinNH,

So you would take the advice of hunters over the advice of experienced long range shooters who know how to minimize missing? Why not combine the two and choose plenty of gun shooting high BC hunting bullets suited for your game?

I find that like ignoring the advice of National Champion wingshooters on how to hit a flying target in favor of the advice of someone who only hunts.

In my mind, if using the very best LR bullets in both cartridges, they stack up like this:

7-08
- Less wind drift beyond 1000 yards
- Larger bullet should do a bit more damage when hitting large game

.260
- Carries slightly more impact velocity out to beyond 1600 yards
- Less recoil makes it easier to stay on target, follow through, and spot your own shots
- Lapua brass available in .260 without having to neck up or down

Both seem to have a nice selection of high-BC hunting and target bullets. Availability might be a bit better with the 7mm, though.

How about a .738 BC @ 2950 fps, course I'd need a new .270 barrel and cut it to 26"....grin

Still kind of guessing but getting closer...

My 23" tube is running them in the 2850 range but that's as far as my tests have gone. I spend too darn much time shooting my Zebra rig with 140 Bergs @ 2650.

Dober

Dober,

Haven't you learned that the .270 is a POS, by now?

Just curious- are you talking about the Matrix VLD with the 0.738 BC? If so, that's a static, calculated BC, and the real-world numbers typically are a fair bit lower than estimated. An example is the 190gr 7mm VLD. When Litz actually measured the BC, it ended up being very comparable to the 180gr Berger at about 0.673, rather than the 0.807 value that is estimated by Matrix and listed on the website.

Yeah Jordo that's the one I was speaking of. Like I say I'm still guessing at most of this.

Dober

I think the boys who have been shooting that bullet figure that the actual BC is somewhere around the 0.630-650 range, which may not be 0.738, but it ain't no slouch!

Jordan,

The 165 Matrix is running right @ 630 real world BC from most guys I have spoken with. I have only loaded and shot a few thru my 270WSM but they shot well. Not sure they have enough to make me change my 150VLD load @3130!

I will be waiting to test the 150 Accubond LR though. Hoping the BC makes in it around 600.

Thanks for the confirmation. That's still 162AM territory, so it's hard to complain about a bullet that performs at that level

Only taken 2 deer so far with the 150VLD but performance was great and accuracy is amazing in the rifle.

Pat,

Thanks for sharing! Always nice to learn something new. H4350? I thought all the top shooters shot Alliant...

By the way - your parrot is amazing! Did you have to spend a lot of time training him or did he just fly in from the wild and start talking from your shoulder?



Regards,

David

Jordan,

Thanks for running the QL information, I was about to ask if anybody knew...

David

Totally side note but the load I use in my Zebra rifle (22" tubed .260) with a 130 Berg is I think 45 of H4350 and it runs a 2820 fps.

It way prefers the 140 Berg backed by H4831 and that tops out @ 2650. Uffda is that an accurate load. So far the farthest I've had it out to is 659 yds, a chip shot by some of you alls standards. The Zebra's a 7 lbs all up kind of gun and it does well for me.






Dober

Dober,

My daughter (8 years old) is sitting beside me and looking over my shoulder. She saw your Zebra rig and said, "Buy me that dad!"

I told her you wouldn't sell it, but maybe we could paint her stock. She likes the idea...

Thank goodness I wasn't viewing the BTE!

If Montana passes the Hunter Afield law or whatever it's called bring her this way come fall and she can run the heckola out of it on a lope!

BTE?

Ingwesan painted it for me, it's caught more than one eye.

Dober

223AI thread. It could put her in instant shock!

We come out every year, early summer, to bust prairie dogs. She's not gone to the killing fields with me yet, but I think this may be her first year....

I get that Pat I totally do but on the real. If you had a .270 with a 9 twist set up like your .260 scope and all I don't spect that your wall space would be feeling neglected. Thoughts?

Thx
Dober

I think you could give him a sling shot and not much would change.

How long is the barrel on that rig?

Bullet manufacturer's have a little catch up to do before I take that plunge.

FYI

Precision Rifle Series Finale Invitations to the Nation's top 50

Equipment list:

1 Shannon Kay 243, S&B
2 2 Chase stroud 6 creedmore premier 5-25
3 3 Francis Kuehl 260, Vortex Razor
4 4 Wade Stuteville Surgeon 6x47, SB 5-25
5 5 John Sommers Surgeon .260 S&B
6 6 Dustin Morris Surgeon 6xc S&B 5-25
7 7 Jeff badley Gap 6cm bushnell HDMR
8 8 Patrick Morris Surgeon, 6xc, Schmitt and Bender
9 9 Jonathan Berry Surgeon, 6xc Vortex Optics
10 10 Ryan Kerr 243, Bushnell
11 11 Rich Emmons Surgeon 6.5 cm / S&B
12 12 Tim Long .260/S&B
13 14 scott parks 6.5x47 vortex optics
14 16 Charles Roberts GAP .260, Bushnell
15 17 Bryan Yeung GA Precision Templar, 6.5 SAUM, Bushnell
16 18 Kevin Elpers 6.5CM, Vortex
17 19 Stan Owens .260. S & B
18 20 FLOYD COOK 6mm/S&B
19 21 Regina Milkovich 6XC, USO
20 22 Jason Keim AIAX, 243, S&B 5-25
21 23 Bryan Morgan 6cm, S&B
22 24 Tom Lancaster 6SLR, S&B
23 26 George Gardner G.A. Precision Templar, 6mm Creedmoor, Bushnell 3x21 HDMR
24 27 Jim See 6xc or 260ai, vortex rz
25 29 Terry Cross .260 Rem / S&B
26 30 Michael G Nitzschke 6x47 Lapua US Optics SN3 3.8-22
27 32 Matt Tederman 6x47 S&B 5-25
28 33 Charles Tate Moots FNH SPR 6.5 Creedmoor, Leupold
29 34 Jason Christian 6xc vortex
30 35 Ryan Castle GAP 260, USO SN3
31 36 Lonnie Devine 243 S&B
32 37 Bryan Richman 6mm, s&b 5x25
33 38 Adam Lucksinger 6.5 Creedmoor, 5-25 S&B
34 39 Rick Reeves Surgeon 6.5 Creedmore/Votex Razor
35 40 Adam Williams 243, HDMR
36 41 Bradley Bell .243 Win. 5-25 S&B
37 42 Todd Morris 6.5x47 S&B pmII
38 43 Travis case 2 sixty Schmitt
39 44 Tim Milkovich 6XC US Optics
40 45 Dean Morris 6.5 x 47 Lapua - Schmidt Bender
41 46 Zach Scurlock AW .243, Premier
42 47 Mark Quintana 0.243 vortex optics
43 49 Joe Walls 6XC, SB 5x25
44 50 Vince Guiffreda Spartan or Animal 260 Rem,Premeir, Surgeon , Bertlein, AI Chassis, Atlas Bipod
45 51 Steve Eacret Surgeon/Bartlein 6.5 Creedmoor. US Optics SN3
46 52 Scott Bartels 6x47 Laqua, S&B PMII 5-25
47 53 Bannon Eldridge Red Ryder, BB, Tasco
48 55 Tony McCollum .243 or 7 saum. Premier or march
49 56 Lowe Weidman 6.5 SLR, HDMR
50 57 David Kerley Woody, 6.5 LRP, Bushnell
51 58 Adam Roberts 6.5
52 65 matt parry 284
53 66 Joey Thompson .284 win, Night Force
54 67 Bob Nugmanov 260 Remington, 5-25x56 Premier
55 73 Robert Baker
56 85 Matt LaVine 6 Super LR, Bushnell HDMR
57 103 Josh Ruby Surgeon .260, Vortex Razor
58 123 BJ Bailey 6.5
59 125 Michael Voigt 6CM
60 127 Garrett Donley 6x47 -Premier

^^^^^^WOW, more 6mm's than I would have expected.





+1

But where would we find a National Champion wingshooter around here,.....

FWIW a lot of precision/tactical rifle comps have fps limitations, I think if one had a list of winning F class calibers it would vary a bit more in caliber diversity.

Here's a more complete list. I think you'll find it interesting.

LOTS of S&B scopes!

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3848424&page=1

There really is a simple way to solve these conundra.

Get both. Or all three. You only live once, and it's only money.

Enabler..

My light GAP .260 has a 24" Rock, 1-9", my heavy rifle has a 26" Schneider 1-8".

This the guy I want on my team.

47 53 Bannon Eldridge Red Ryder, BB, Tasco

Not new enough for a gain twist barrel they seem to be favoring these days? Is the 26" the barrel that clocks 3000 or is it the shorter one?

I see an awful lot of S&Bs

dave

A S&B is never a bad choice.

Both barrels produce the same velocity....handy to use the same dope for either rifle.

Pat,

Did you switch from the 130 VLDs to the JLKs for good, or are you just experimenting?

John

Maybe this will help:


15 rounds from 1000 yds. with 6.5x47 Lapua by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

That's gotta be some kind of record. One hell of a group and good shooting rifle at 1000. I'm guessing 1/2 minute for a big sample group

That is some amazing shooting right there! I've done a few five shot groups that might hang with that, but not that many shots. Very impressive! What bullet is that?

The JLK is really working well on coyotes. My next T&E will be how it performs after being pointed with a Whidden Bullet Pointer. I have a couple friends shooting the pointed version of the 130 JLK and claim a G1 BC of .625. I need to find out if closing the point down is going to effect how it opens up.

How's the temp your way this weekend Pat? I wanted to get out for dogs this morning but have my G-son has a hoops game in a bit. Perhaps tomorrow morn.

Dober

.

Crazy....it was 28* below zero here two days ago.....right now it's 36*F and sunny.

Heat wave on the HiLine...

Thx
Dober

Thanks Pat. Do the unpointed ones expand well on Coyotes?

John

39 coyotes with that bullet so far has shown me results almost identical to the 130gr Berger HVLD. Have not lost one due to a poor hit yet. The farthest one has traveled after being hit(shot from 370 yards)was 82 yards, hit broadside through the ribcage with a 1.5" exit.

That's really impressive. Not only the accuracy, but also the precision. The furthest shot from center can't be more than 2-3".

Thanks Pat. May have to give the JLKs a try too.

John

Thx 4 putting this up, interesting to weed thru. I find it especially interesting the numbers and or lack thereof of NF and Leupold.

Vortex had a good showing.

Thx
Dober

123 Gr. Sierra HPBT with 38.5 grs Varget, BR4 primer.


RicksTacRifle by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

It surprised me to see far more Bushnell's than Leupolds in that mix....that there were lots of S&B's is not surprising.

What was an eye opener was the clear domination of Krieger, Bartlein, and Brux barrels....I shouldn't be surprised though....they lead the pack among competitive shooters back here, too.

Interesting info for sure!

The popularity of the 6.5mm is relatively new here in the States, but not in Europe. The Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, and Germans have known about the 6.5mm and used it extensively since the late 1800's starting with the Swedish Mausers and Krag's.

Scandinavian hunters have been killing big game for well over a century with it, as well as seals, deer, raccoon dogs, boar, bear, and everything in Alaska when they have gone to hunt there as well.

Here is where I see the real benefits of 6.5mm:

* I think we can agree that the shooter who has more time on his or her rifle making successful, accurate shots in practice/training, is much more likely to make good hits in the field.

* The more you can properly practice with your rifle, the higher your hit probability will be.

* The less recoil your rifle has, the more you can comfortably practice, with utmost focus on maintaining a great sight picture throughout the process of taking the shot.

* The 6.5mm projectiles have the optimum BC for weight within a short action rifle. In a 7mm or .270, you have to increase the weight significantly to match the BC and Sectional Density of a 6.5mm.

* If you want a nice, lightweight hunting rifle, the 6.5mm in a short action is hard to beat. The 7mm smokes it when you step up to the magnum cases pushing 180gr Bergers, but rifle weight and recoil start to become a penalty.

I grew up on the .270 Winchester, and will always hold onto it and shoot it occasionally, but my .260 Remington and 6.5 Grendel have really dominated my range time for distance work over the past several years. I still think the 7mm-08 is a great cartridge, and should have been the military chambering over the 7.62 NATO, but that's another debate.

I would also add that if we really want to compare BC's, the G7 values are better for any pill with a boat tail, whereas G1 drag profiles are for flat-base bullets. The new Nosler Accubond-LR line has some very high BC's for us all:

I hope the BCs for the ALR are accurate, but I am very skeptical. If Berger can't get near those numbers with their .277 150gr VLD, I have a very hard time believing Nosler can do it with their bullet.

John

I can' see the chart good enough to read it but what are the listed BC's for the 6.5 and .270 on it?

Thx...

Dober

Chuckle...

.561 & .625 respectively

Damn! Those new AB .277 bullets are already a world beater....anyone in here tested them?....chuckle.

+1, I'll be interested to see the results if/when Litz gets around to testing them.

6.5 129gr G1 .561, G7 .285
.277 150gr G1 .625 G7 .317


Yeah.... Right...

John

Litz has already stated he cant see how those numbers are even possible..I'm not expecting them to hold up, but we'll see.

I stopped by Swift's booth at SHOT last month, and asked about the 130gr 6.5mm Scirocco's stated BC of .571, and if they had tested that at 600yds or further. I was told that it was a theoretical BC, but those who have tested it said it works out to be around .541 IIRC. No G7 data on it currently available that I'm aware of, unless someone has seen it.

Yeah, when I saw the stated BC for the .277 Nolser ABLR, I envisioned a spear-shaped bullet, because that is very high compared to the 7mm and 6.5mm pills.

Not a whole lot seems to have been done for the .270 and VLD-type bullets, especially for hunting. Exceptions are:

150gr Hornady SST with .525 BC
150gr Hornady InterBond .525 BC
150gr Berger Hunting VLD .531/.272 BC

I know one thing: When my wife fired a factory 130gr Soft Point from my .270 Winchester, it was her first and last time.

Didn't think this thread would be so popular.

I appreciate the knowledge everyone has shared about 6.5mm; certainly seems like a neat little round. Doesn't exactly fill a niche for me though. Different strokes

I very intrigued in the Lapua 136 Scenar. Waiting to see what the real BC are on this bullet.

As soon as you get one, you'll understand!

Will this help answer your question??


15 rounds from 1000 yds. with 6.5x47 Lapua by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

And it does this using only 38 grs. of Varget.

Most know I'm a 6.5 slut, but I'd love to see Pat run a 270 in an accurate rifle with his pet S&B and all the dope worked out with something like a Berger 150 or Ballistic Tip 140-150.

I bet Pat could drop those into vitals WAY out there, and animals thus hit would die rapidly.

Windage is there for all rounds, as drop, and both must be compensated for, so when shooting LR, one best get a handle on the distance/angle/wind and hold/twist accordingly.

Folks like Pat have learned their gear and don't need much help, just opportunity. When we stop and think what was done with 30/30s and 45-70s, most modern rounds will reach far beyond the average Joe Blow can steer, until they master their gear.

I used to own a model 7 in 260rem. Had to send it down the road as I was low on funds and I didnt want to get rid of my saum. I still wish I had that rifle. I'm glad I had the chance to take a couple of deer with it.

JLK has 130 gr vld and 140 gr vld at .620 BC

The JLK 140gr is .630 also Woodleigh makes a 160gr protected point soft point with a .509 BC.

FishinHank, Just wondered what caliber is your SAUM? I have a 260 and a 7 SAUM. Like them both.

Mine is a 300. Much more versatile for me than my .260 was. Rifles will come and go but that 300 will stay, at least for as long as I can still get brass for it.