What are the pro or cons in using a 3 groove barrel for a high velocity 6.5 diameter barrel. I have read some things suggesting a 3 groove barrel will tear up the thinner jacketed bullets like the Bergers or match type bullets? What say you? I will one day need to rebarrel my 264 win mag. I just want advice on how to evaluate my options. Thank you, john.

Just me - but I'd stick with 5 grooves... At the same time, take 2 mns and dial up Dan Lilja and ask for his advice..

My experience is - he knows his stuff..

Not a 264 mag. but I have 3 Lilja 3 groove barrels and they all very shoot very well.

1 is a 260 AI and it shoots 123 SST's and 123 AMAX at 3090 consistantly under .75 MOA out to 500.

They all seem to clean up pretty easy too.

3-groove barrels are reputed to last a little longer than barrels with more grooves. Might be a consideration in something like a 264 WM...

BTW, 264 WM and Berger bullets seem like kind of an odd combination in my book, unless this a coyote rig.

The second of the two custom rifles I have had built is a 257 Roberts with a Lilja 3 groove barrel. It is also the most accurate rifle I have. Impeccable accuracy and easy cleaning.

I do not have a 3-grooved 264Win.

But I have yet to own a 3-groover that I didn't LOVE and they are my preference,by goodly margin.

Lilja 3-groovers do nice things.

Hint..................(grin)

To have been a member since 2004 you must have been hiding under a rock for a long time. I am not arguing bullets but if you search JohnBurns you will have more than enough to read about on how effective the .264WM can be with the Berger Hunting VLD...and not just on coyotes.

I am currently running a 5 groove Pac Nor on my .264WM and have no complaints. When I toast it I will probably go with a 3 groove for S&G's.

I've a couple of 264s with Lilja three groove barrels.

I'm a fan, but I don't shoot Bergers...

Berger's have never shown me schit...............

Maybe you need a new watch...

As a minimum!..............

How many groves in the Butt Out tool?

Same as The Watch and Cough Silencer.................(grin)

You guys amaze me. Amount of grooves make no difference. I have had from 3 groove to 8 groove. When you get a good barrel you get a good barrel. Most of us can't shoot as good as our barrels anyway.

bitch,

You are in over your head.

Yet again.

Laughing!..............

Built a 284 with a Lilja 3 groove, not disappointed.

I just asked Dan Lilja a similar question a couple of weeks ago. I'm building a 25-06 and he said he'd use a 3 groove. Barrel was ordered on the spot.

Imagine that..............(grin)

Though he should have nudged you,1-8" 3-groove in 243Win.

Hint...............

Already got one of those. My only other 3 groove bore and its a keeper. Never had a bad Lilja.

I had a Benchmark 3 groove that I chambered to a modified .264 Win Mag. It started keyholing 140gr VLDs at 200 Rnds.

The button was designed for a standard 1-2 land to groove ratio. This means the lands in this 3 groove were twice as wide as in a standard Benchmark 6 groove. I believe the wide lands were too much for the thin J4 jacket.

Ron sent a standard 6 groove and that barrel has been wonderful. I suspect more campfire member have shot that 6 groove .264 Win Mag than any other rifle.



This is a three shot group, at something over a mile, under silly bad conditions, with 1200 rounds down the barrel, and a dozen witnesses.



I have an extra 600 rnds down the bore and it is still shooting great. My bull from last year was just over 1000yds and I clipped a coyote this spring at 1000yds with the next shot.



I have never seen a 3 groover do better than a 5 or 6 so I would suggest more grooves. Guys shooting other bullets might not see the issues as soon but why deal with the shorter barrel life? Every barrel maker that does the 3 grooves also will build a more suitable 5 or 6 groove.



6 Groove CHECK

.264 Win Mag CHECK

140 VLD CHECK

Watch CHECK

Big Bull at 1100yds Double CHECK



If you are stumped by Bergers you might want to zip the lips and start taking notes.

Consider that a hint.

That's a DIRTY Trick to do to a 25-06.

In fact,it's MEAN............

115 vlds already in waiting.....

That's a great looking stock,who makes it?

Berger terminal affects,never showed me anything. How many back-up rifles/Guides on those "Hunts"? I mean just on the average.

Laughing!............

Your 243 giggles in anticipation...............

Shot a butt load of Berger vld's and Amax and 107 SMK through 3 groove Liljas...more than one. Nary an issue...more on order

same with a 3 groove pac nor. I like the barrel life

Now that I think about it...I probably hve more than a few 3-groovers,by more than a few Makers and might even be hip on the notion.

None of which is "proprietary".

Laughing!..............

Hardly matters in this discussion but you running from talking rifles and starting to fling poo is not exactly surprising. Do what you know best.

To answer the question those are my mules carrying the bull, none of whom had ever seen dead critters or packed meat before I owned them, I spotted the bull and planned the stalk, I choose the unit, I packed the bull, I drove my truck towing my trailer to the trail head, I loaded my ammo and choose the exact bullet and powder.



Not very important in the overall scheme.

I have called you my pet monkey in the past and right now that is what you are. You, literally, fling poo like a stupid monkey.

I get that at times destruction, even self destruction, feels so right but then again you seem to, at times, see the futility of that path.

Get your schit together.

I must have missed it? What was that stock again? Who's bandoleer on the stock,for the rifle that supposedly shoots so "well"?

Which barrel did you schlep to the dumbphuqqs stupid enough,to buy your phony phuqqing schit?

Enjoyed The Donkey Story.

Laughing!................

Stick,
Now is your big opportunity to finally show-up John Burns with your pics of "book" sheep, caribou, moose and grizzly's.

Show him and the world you dont imagine pretend!!
You can do it.

She's too busy trying to unphuqq all the folks she phuqqed.

Which ain't happening.

Hint....................

Really?
Seems to me John Burns produced a product and sold it in the open market to people that thought it was worth the price. That's what America used to be about before the liberal progressive capitalism haters took over.

I am beginning to believe your reluctance to post pic's of your "book" ram's etc... means they don't exist?

So who is the lying pretender?

You are a pathetic excuse of a man, just shamefull!!

You nailed it!

Laughing!.............

Funny you should ask about the butt cuff.

I prefer the ones that are made in the USA. Seem to last quite a bit longer. I have been using them for quite a while. Started back in the day when I hunted with the 1B.

That would be the very first 6mm Mach IV. I did another for Ross S and it was kinda the center piece for a few G&A articles in the late 80s.


The butt cuff seemed kinda handy so I kept using them.



Those who borrowed my rifles were stuck with the butt cuff but seemed to do OK.









Spot and stalk lion. I had been shooting rockchucks all afternoon and when I spotted the lion it was just grab and go.

[img]http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/JohnMtLion.jpg[/img]

Get your schit together. You don't have to be the stupid monkey.

LOVE the fences! You REALLY get after it!! Laughing!


Again..who's stock? I mean,not that you billed it differently. Laughing!

Who's barrel? Not that you billed it differently. Laughing!

You lying Snake Oil Phuqqs are a hoot.

Fact is...I'm going to report your Lying/Cheating/Stealing to a Moderator.

Bless your heart..................

Funny you should run from all things related to rifles and fling your poo. It is what you doooooo.

Just to fuel your pooooo fling.

Grizzly with the Butt Cuff.



You have one of those right?? I mean living in AK and over the counter tags and such.

Hang a pic.

Your "Guide" should be punched in the phuqqing face,for letting a City Slicker kill that RAT. What did it "score"? Laughing!

That stock strikes me as different,which one is that? Better or worse?

Lotsa empties there in the bandoleer.

Laughing!.................

Smells like a delete!


"Your "Guide" should be punched in the phuqqing face,for letting a City Slicker kill that RAT. What did it "score"? Laughing!

That stock strikes me as different,which one is that? Better or worse?

Lotsa empties there in the bandoleer.

Laughing!................."

Bless your heart.



Laughing!...................

What?? No pict of your grizzly. That is sure a surprise. How about your sheep???



Wow. That sure ain't a sheep.

Three posts in a row replying to yourself????

Again, GET YOUR SCHIT TOGETHER. Lots of people had a rough childhood.

Four of us built five 257 Weatherby chambered rifles using Lilja 3 groove rifles. All shot the 115 VLD. To date we have a combined count of 22 animals. ( coues wt, elk, antelope and javelina)

I shot the heck out of my 257. At round count 555 it began to tear up the 115 Berger VLD. My solution was to shoot the 110 gr accubond which has held together and is still shooting at round count 802. The borescope shows horrific bore wear with cracks and fissures up the barrel for over a foot. It fouls more these days but still shoots excellently.

Had a Lilja 1 in 7 twist 3 groove chambered in 7 Rem mag which shot the 180 berger VLDs till round count 236 when the combination of fast twist and the worn 3 groove began throwing the 180 VLD. It was suggested I switch to the 180 target which also came apart in another 50 rounds. Finally gave up and switched to Accubonds.

Friend used same twist with a 3 groove lilja to make a 7 STW. It quit shooting the VLDs right around round count 200.


If you stay away from the thin jacketed bullets like the Berger VLDs the 3 groove should work fine till it is shot out.

Tell me you mounted that POS!

Laughing!

What was the stock again and why all the empties?

You sure get after it.

Laughing!...............

Pathetic, narcissistic and a fraud.. The triple crown.

It's a Rat,Dink,Cub.

PLEASE tell me I'm "wrong".

Laughing!................

wow. you sure learned a 'lot' from a sample of one and 200 rounds.

Over the years I have had six of the 3 groove barrels and only one remains. IMO there is no upside to a 3 groove but there is potential downside.

I use 4 and 6 groove barrel's on my benchrest guns and 5 and 6 groove barrels on my varmint and hunting rifles, I will never buy another 3.

Don't know anyone,who would buy anything but a 3...but we shoot a smidge.

Hint..............

Is that Rat even legal?.................

I have several friends and acquaintances that have used Lilja 3 groove barrels. All of them have had issues at low round counts with Berger bullets. Why subject yourself to this when you can get a 4,5 or 6 groove and never have to worry. I agree that there is not really much of an up side to 3-groove barrels and lots of down side.

I have a 300 WBY with a 12 groove barrel. It lasted 3000 rounds before I pulled it off. Was still shooting about MOA @ 200 when I pulled it.

I wouldn't use a 3 groove unless it was for cast bullets myself.

If you go by the Campfire thinking of Google/Adblocker plus - why in the hell should I have to go to a 6 grove barrel just so I can shoot Bergers? It's the only bullet I have this issue with. Berger needs to change!

You'll have to pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess.

Pretty sure a very steeped individual,already cast Berger lamentations,for reasons having nothing to do with land numbering.

Hint.................

They are easy to pass upon,for numerous reasons................

it is very easy for me to get past the Berger nuke problem. I don't shoot Bergers, even at paper or vermin.

but if Bergers puke outta 3 groove bbls, is it really the barrel's fault or the bullets?

but I suppose if someone is stumped by a free download, your mileage will differ from mine.

Pretty much the point I was making.

Too many bullets slap Bergers silly and from all angles...no matter the number of lands..............

gotcha. I just can't read sarcasm over the web. you are pretty good at it though LOL

I have their reloading manual - bout it.

Not gunned a Berger though during the last "panic" they were the one 6mm bullet easily found on shelves in my zip code.

I snagged Amax's at the time instead.

Ain't run a skinner yet but I'm intrigued by them.

Skinners is the most rugged of the VLD's.

Phuqqers are WICKED..................

Any specific weight/caliber a guy should shy away from?

Other than any/all Bergers?...................

Figgured we was talking skinners.

Never seen or heard of a poor Skinner.

They BRING it..............

10-4

Might have to give them a whirl.

That 139 .264 offering looks like a slippery SOB.

Phuqqed up and just ordered some A-Max and meant to include some 7mm Skinners to wring out.................

Well I did learn that a 3 groove is a poor choice if one wants to shoot the best production LR bullets (Bergers). Would you be happier if I made the same mistake twice????



Good Gosh, the dominant bullet manufacture in LR competition "needs to change!" because 3 groove barrel are poor choices????

Get real.

Hang a picture of anything you have killed with any bullet. Lil Fish has a better chance putting up a sheep or grizzly and we all know that is not happening.

Burns,

In what Country was that Cub a Legal Harvest?

Thanks!..............

Got back home last week and have been opeing packages that have been stacking up the last few months.

Found these in one of them, think i'll like them.

150 Scenar,168 Berger classic,162 Amax, 175 ABLR, 180 Scenar


I havent been all that impressed with the bergers in 7mm, but the 230gr 30cal and the 105 6mm are flat wicked.

The 105 Hybrid is their best effort...but it's still a phuqqing Berger..............

You've obviously missed the wailing and gnashing of teeth over some ads here on the Campfire and some people's absolute refusal to accept the very free and effective fix for said issue (chrome with adblock plus makes this place sing). They continue to complain that they shouldn't have to change a damned thing on their end to run a free website they pay absolutely nothing towards the running/upkeep of.

The correlation I was making was that some people think that the Campfire needs to be torn down and rebuilt completely because MAYBE 50 guys out of 50,000 have an issue and refuse to go with the fix.

Much the same as saying because 3 groovers are hard on Bergers, all 3 groovers are crap and not worth anything. Which ignores the fact that some people simply do not shoot Bergers nor wish to which makes that situation a moot point. Berger may have a reputation as being an outstanding LR bullet but it's not like there's Bergers and then there's Powerbelt muzzle loader bullets with nothing in between. If a guy so chooses he can run some outstanding LR bullets like the A-Max or Scenar in his 3 groove barreled rig and be rather okay.

Their desire to rebuild the campfire oddly doesn't transfer over to the raising of pitchforks and crying in the wilderness at Berger to make their wares conform to their gear choice there either. They've changed their gear to work with the Berger but won't on this site.

Regardless of how you feel about Larry - dude does shoot a ton and he does shoot a lot with 3 groove barrels, I'd say he connects enough to see that a 6 groove barrel and a Berger isn't the ONLY way to skin a cat.

YMMV....

Yeah those Bergers are horrible�.

Group like this (10 shots):



and have a propensity to make stuff die� quickly�











[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/1ac0b92c.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/653e1f87.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/d62e8e1f.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/Hondo64d/IMG_0389-1.jpg[/img]

It's nice not having to guess�

John

A couple more Berger victims�





more guessing...

John

It's all relative and it adds humor in a magnitude,that you couldn't begin to fathom,that you are swooning THAT. Hint.

162A-Max exit at about 80-ish yds via 7 Whizzum. Yes I realize it is an order of magnitude bigger than the highly "esteemed" Seinfeld Grizzly. Laughing!




Now I've shot more than a few phuqqing bullets,through more than a few phuqqing rifles. The depths of which,you could not begin to comprehend. Hint.

For those reasonsa,I skirt Bergers by a WIDE margin and I do not know a single soul who guns them on Critters as a mainstay. Hint. 'Course,that adds a whole 'nother number of barrels/chamberings to the equation,which was already obscene. Re-hint.

Bergers are zooky and unpredictable,the only thing worse being SMK's. Skinners are amazing and I hear good things about Hornie HPBT's,in more than a few diameters. Hint.

Paper dies easier than anything and is a piss poor Terminal Affects Barometer.

Hint...............

I have a lot of experience with 180 Bergers in various 7mms and I have yet to find anything better; accuracy wise and killing wise. It is an awesome bullet. I have seen it work well on a lowly coues deer (100#) and a 750# bull elk as well as a half dozen nice bears.

I just don't get what you guys see in a 3-groove bullet. What does it do for you that the barrels that will shoot thin jacketed bullets won't?? The 3-groove barrels are a bad program that Dan Lilja has been ramming down peoples throats for a while.

Why would I want to change bullets so I can use a barrel that gains me nothing? Only way I would use them is if I had a bunch of free ones to screw on!

I've never see a 3-groove bullet.

3-groove spouts wear like iron and are exceptionally forgiving.

But again,I can only reflect on 100's and 100's of barrels.

Hint................

The "guides" laugh at your idiocy.




Ever get the feelin you are 3 step behind???

Phuqqing RAT Factory!

I'm crying I'm laughing sooooooooooo phuqqing hard!!!!!


Just...WOW!..................

I take it then, that you have actually shot a few critters with Bergers and did not like their performance.

I have never NOT recovered and animal I launched a Berger at. And, on the average, said victims have made much fewer tracks than with any other bullet I have tried. A couple have made it maybe 30 or 40 yards with lung shots (4wd ) , but most have simply fallen down or moved no more than a few feet.

That being said, they can be a little more finicky when it comes to seating depth. For me their performance on critters has made it worth the little extra effort it might take to get them to shoot to their full potential.

Agree with you completely on the SMKs. Critters made quite a few tracks after the shot and no exit wound either. Bad combination.

The Hornady BTHPs have shot really well for me out of my .260 but I haven't made it a point to kill anything with them yet.

My very limited personal experience with Scenars (only a couple of animals) along with what you and Pat have said has lead me to believe that they are much harder than the Bergers and impacting bone is in order to get much damage out of them. That a good assessment on the Scenars?

John

There ain't too many bullets I've not seen interact with Critters and Berger has long been amongst the list of options flunged.

Hornie HPBT's are farrrrrr more reliable than all things SMK or Berger.

Skinners are The Grail...............

Gonna have to try them on a couple more critters then, if only just to give them a fair shake�

John

Aw schit. Those were my big bears. I got quite a few smaller, is that a problem?









Here is a "hint" Lil Fish. When it is well and truly a rat then snubb the shutter speed way down and move the head inside the shutter.

It does look bigger, right??


You might note the preponderance of 6 gun kills. Ever played that game. Yeah I didn't think so.

No I've never seen a FA let alone a wheelgun,this schit is all "new" to me. Laughing!

Too phuqqing funny,that you paid someone,to do THAT!

I'm phuqqing crying,I'm laughing soooooooooo hard.

Holy Schit,that is FUNNY!!!...............

Well heck hang a picture of you with a FA and some game.

Opps that might be like you posting a picture of you with a sheep or you with a grizzly. Unicorns are more prevalent and more photographed.

Bit of a thread drift so while we all understand you have zero FA experience how about you hang something relevant to the OP. Dead critter and a Berger.

I will give you a little seed.



More????

OK.



Note the butt cuff.

All new to me.

Laughing!..............

I cannot even get Bergers to kill paper reliably. I've never worked with a more finicky line of bullets.

JB,

Congrats on some very nice looking animals!

Steve

JB,
Great animals, thanks for posting!!
Big Stick is a one trick pony.
You will never see pic's of him with sheep, grizzly's, goats...

Even though he lives in a state where those critters are abundant and tags are available over the counter.

Instead he call everyone a pretender, he is the pretender.

I am familiar with your hunting country, and know the trophy's you kill aren't easy to come by.

Stick lives where the black bear density is higher than anywhere in the world and I believe the annual blacktail limit is five deer per a person?

I suspect you get him out of his little world and he would fail miserably!!

You are not the only one as the design of the VLD exacerbates deficiencies in rifle barrels. Throats, crowns, and bore dimensions have to be spot on for trouble free performance.

The Hybrid is more forgiving and kicks the BC even higher. You might give it a whirl if so inclined.





Thanks guys.

I've never killed an animal with a Berger or Scenar, but the Scenars sure do shoot! Hoping to finally see how they do this fall.

Good luck and I bet there won't be a problem.

Thanks guys for the feedback regarding 3 groove barrels. I have read elsewhere that in a high velocity rifle, they tend to tear up thin jacketed bullets and a few of you guys seem to have confirmed that. I am getting a 3 grove for my 308 hunting rifle shooting 165 ballistic tips and suspect it won't be a problem, but in my 264 win mag, I think it's not the right choice, especially if I shoot the VLD hunting bullets. Thanks again for the feedback.

JB,
Have you tried the 6.5mm 140 hybrid on game?

FWIW, I used the 139gr Scenar on 4 pronghorns last year. No problem getting full penetration through the shoulders, which I realize is not much of a test. In relation to your question, the shots that landed in softer spots definitely opened and did plenty of damage. My limited opinion was that they were very similar to the results I've seen with a 30-06 and 165gr bullets. Due to vareity of reasons, I was launching them pretty slow (~2600fps) out of my 260 Rem. So, my limited experience leads me to believe that the Scenars don't need bone to work well.

Not yet. I got a few standard 140gr VLDs to use up first.





Should have taken the hint.

I've got a pretty good stash of VLDs which one of my 264s does very well with. My other 264 can't seem to make friends with the VLD and I'm considering a try with hybrids.

Well worth a try. The Hybrid is more forgiving and has a slight bump up in the BC.

I have to admit that I have never until this thread ever in my life seen Stick resort to window licking and sit his kcunt on the couch.


Shod