This ain't a fairy tale but it remains to be determined if the ending is just pretty darn good or absolutely fantastic.

Maybe an 1899 Expert can help me figure a few things out and decide.

I just bought a 190xxx (1917 Vintage or so) 250/3000 (take down) 1899 Deluxe that is almost new appearing at a flea market booth, paying a "good deal" gray rat price for a shooter. I did so thinking it was in really good condition, but re-blued and non-original in more ways than having a mounted scope (the for sure bad news). And, if the rifle was hot, it came from somebody with good ID and willing to include it on a bill of sale.

Now, with it at home and in good light, disassembled and wiped down, I'm not so sure it has been re-blued. All lettering is crisp under magnification, the bore looks NEW with no evidence of wear, barrel threads are perfect, screw heads are perfect, there are no signs of mechanical wear, and crisp edges remain crisp in tandem with perfect near bluing. If this rifle has a metal refinish job, it is probably the best I have seen. And metal condition corresponds to the stock's condition and its checkering and butt-plate with matching numbers and in convincingly original finish. There are a couple of minor handling dings in the wood and just a hint of oil discoloration to the wood in the expected places. Except for a couple of nagging details, you'd think the rifle has been in loving and attentive storage, left mostly unused, oiled and wiped down annually for 95 years.

The main nagging detail is that the lever, trigger and breech-bolt are brightly (and perfectly) nickel plated! That said "refinished to me" and since the rifle was tagged with a much higher than gray-rat price (more than I would pay for a shooter)I started to walk away. Whereupon, the rifle became a "story gun."

Here is the story. The Seller stopped me, saying I was the first that had looked carefully, and then not tried to tell him the rifle was refinished, not worth anything in consequence, and try to beat him down to a low-ball price. He then said that he really wanted to get rid of the rifle and leave, that the rifle was indeed original, and that since I had not insulted him, he would sell it to me for the low ball offer he had previously received. I handed him money. He then said the rifle was one of four identical 1899's (except for chambering) that, per his father, were special ordered new by his grandfather, all including the "chromed parts". He then said the rifles passed to his father in the 1950s or 1960s that his father added the scope, but that he did not recall his father ever using any of the Savages and that he had never fired the rifle himself. The scope and mounts are of the right vintage for the latter claim. Only once I got home and dated the serial number did all of this at least make potential chronological sense.

THEN I LOOKED IN MURRAY'S BOOK (Page 5-10) and saw that "Nickel Plated Trimmings" were among the special order options for 1899's. Could these in fact be the lever, trigger, and breech-bolt? Except for the scope, is this Savage in astoundingly good condition possibly also as original from the factory? Love an opinion from an expert and/or pictures of "Nickel Plated Trimmings."

Pictures man, we need pictures!!

I need batteries for the camera!

how long does that take?

I did see a 30-30, 99 one time that had the trigger, leaver,sights and the tang sight, and butt plate,Nickel, or silver plated, the rifle was well used, could have gotten it for 350 too!

Sorry about poor pictures.

Breech bolt picture

Slowly learning how to do these pictures

And right side

And a broader view of the left

Hopefully above picture paint the story & someone can tell me if the Nickel Plating is from the factory.

Yeti, I cant speak to the metal work but one of the things I have learned on this forum is that seeing metal on the top and bottom tang usually means the stock has been sanded. Ive seen pictures of right rifles that show a little metal but when I see metal showing top and bottom, both sides, I think "the stock has been sanded". Shiny checkering,or finish in the checkering is another thing that says refinished to me.

That being said, I hunt grouse with a chrome plated AH FOX 16ga and the grouse dont seem to mind

too shiny, can really see redo on the left side, and the forearm.

Good observations all and of course the question of "originality" is mute given the scope and sling swivels. This alone probably kills any serious collector value.

But the "originality" of the nickel plated parts vis a vis "special order trimmings" shown in Murray's book remains of great interest because I am increasingly of the opinion that this Savage is in the exceptional condition expected of a near-mint firearm. I think originality (save scope and swivels) is a genuine possibility.

I can perhaps account for the "shine" by noting that the stocks smells of a recent linseed oil rub and that I wiped an oil film over metal before photos. Other than noting I don't see anything obvious that suggests the stock was sanded versus 90+ years of wood shrinkage, I have nothing to add here. What I have done is look inside and out without finding any of the usual signs of wear that re-finishing usually fails to cover. This is true of lever mechanism, screw heads, TD threads, and barrel. The finish on the butt plate appears as new. But more importantly, there are no dings or dents or rough spots on serration edges as normally occur the first time a butt is rested on a rock. Finish under the butt and under the forearm is consistent with the stock exterior. In the forearm, the nut holding the front sling swivel breaks this finish and is probably contemporary with addition of the scope circa 1960. I can't rule out refinishing on my own. But if it was done, it was done 50 years ago, was done awfully well, and was done to a rifle that had been lightly used at worst when it was refinished.

Plus, I was told a story by an identifiable member of the community that accounts for the rifle's ownership through 3 generations from new. We all know what stories are usually worth, especially presented by a seller trying to justify his price. But the seller offered the rifle to me for what would be considered a good deal on a battered gray rat (per brags on this forum!) before he told me the story, and had nothing to gain other than a degree of vindication. The one thing I am pretty sure of is that nobody else in America bought a shooter 250/3000 in equal or better condition this month for less!

So does anyone really know what "Special Order Nickel Plated Trimmings" are?

And

Would a Factory Letter indicate such "special order" properties?

only way to find out is check with Calahan and suggest that he check ser to plus and minus five on either side to see if other rifles were ordered and shipped at the same time .probably cost you a little more but the history would be interesting

. The part of the stock that I circled in red...that is the obvious part that sugjests sanding. As to srinkage, its a stock, not a cold scrotum.

Considering the story you got, I'd throw out the $25 to get it lettered. My guess is that you got a pretty shooter, but find out for sure.

Do the numbers on the stock match the receiver? Might be another reason for the wood/metal not to fit as well as they should.

one thing I am pretty sure of is that nobody else in America bought a shooter 250/3000 in equal or better condition this month for less!

Hmmmm..whenever I find myself conjuring those far reaching and emotional justifications, ...

That guns been dolled up.

Looks like its been totally redone to me. JMO. Don

It's been redone. Metal and all.

Right side of the stock cheek looks like it was sanded a lot more than the left. Also the metal does not look like original Savage finish for the time period.

Would be a great shooter though if it shoots straight. I'd rather use that than a newer one.

Quite the brag. That there is justification to demand that you post the buying price. Us poor sons of unmarried parents could use the laugh.

Probably because it was at one time before someone shined it up, now it's whats known as a hybrid rat. At least you know that the scope and sling swivels kill any collector value and with them added the $30 for the letter is a waste of time. The nickel trimmings won't do much for it now anyways.

I don't remember seeing one with a plated bolt. They are bright when shipped from the factory and might require additional machining to made up for the added plating.

With the serial in the 190xxx range the rifle would have shipped with the standard "high luster blue" of the earlier rifles. Your rifle does not appear to have that finish. If you got it for a "gray rat" price and the bore is good and the barrel screws up correctly then you did good. Might not be original but still a fine looking rifle.

Obviously, the gun is non original mess by collectors standard but will likely kill just fine.

More on point to the plating:
I have seen one legit plated 99, and one ??? gun... both were just lever and butt plate from what I recall.
The first is a well lettered gun that was at auction recently that belonged to a famous shooter back in the day.

the other was clearly a factory upgrade gun but sort of unique, A3 or A5 checkering and a simple line engraving around the receiver and a little triangle on the lever boss. I believe that Blair has a similar gun. This gun was otherwise a totally trashed early 1899.

Both were built well before 1910.

I really wonder how long these options existed??? I would think after WWI, things like chrome plating were for the most part not options any longer.

Rick,

I don't believe the bolt is plated for the reasons that you state. The metal used in the bolt is really high quality and with time and patience will polish up to a mirror finish, I have done this with a project rifle that I have. So I would say polished up and not plated.

Blair

For the kind folks contributing to this thread, and anyone else:

1. Serial Numbers on receiver, forearm, butt-stock (under butt plate) all match, including scratched on the backside of the butt plate. I am not sure if the latter is �normal� but might be in the case of a �special order� that received a little extra fitting attention. All other markings are as expected. Yes, I checked before I posted. If not genuine expertise, I might have assumed at least some sophistication from someone that had a copy of Murray�s book on hand for several years before he bought the rifle in question.

2. As to �cold scrotums�, I have only experience with my own. So on scrotums I gladly concede expertise to those with obviously much broader, hands-on, experience.

As to wood shrinkage on 100+ year old firearms, I own enough to have an opinion regarding observable variation. I did indeed consider your picture before expressing my opinion to the effect that I am not sure you are right. I�m not sure you are wrong either. In any event, you may note that I bought the firearm assuming it had been fiddled (in addition to being scoped and sling swivels added) and have begun seriously questioning this conclusion only on looking carefully in good light and with aid of a bore scope and magnifier. As I said, if refinished, work quality is a lot better than most I have seen and the firearm was in very good shape before being refinished. Rifling is as new.

3. Refinished or not, with the rifle in hand, I assure you that neither in terms of gross contour or smoothness or surface appearance is the right side of cheek-piece sanded more or less than the left. With the rifle in hand, I would subjectively characterize the bluing as a �high luster blue,� but considering how color sensitivity and balance vary in digital cameras and in display monitors, I don�t know how, except perhaps on surface texture, one can confidently say what several of you said from afar. I don�t have another same period Savage with still unworn enough finish to make meaningful direct comparison. But I do have a couple of mint Colts and a near mint Winchester from the period. The blue is a little bluer (less blackish) than the Winchester and a tinge less �plum colored� (purplish) than the Colt. But I can not imagine drawing such distinctions from a digital color photograph unless two or more differing weapons were side-by-side.

4. Price or value from my view isn�t the point except as it may lend credibility to the seller�s story). For those that are historically literate and absolutely have to know (so they can laugh or cry), multiply the number of terms actually served by FDR (including the fraction of the last) by 100. This will get you within a sawbuck. The sticker price, which was way too much in my mind for a probably refinished rifle was better than 3 times this amount. I NEVER MENTIONED PRICE IN THE TRANSACTION. After you have done the math (and first perhaps consulted Wikipedia) you might consider the credibility of the inferred brag relative to my claims and the pictures. Married or not, it�s nice you know both your parents.

5. Thanks to the several of you that recall previously seeing �authentic� M1899�s with at least plated levers. The Seller referred to them as �chrome plated� though because of Savage catalog entries I am referring to them as �nickel plated.� Appearance wise, they are like a high condition Nickel plated colt from the 1920�s, so I am guessing at nickel, I think Blair made a plausible observation about bolt polish but is wrong because the high shine is visible on ordinarily invisible bolt surfaces, including areas of unpolished roughness. Looks like plating to me. And it�s not silver. If done later, the plating could of course indeed be chrome.

The comments on plate thickness (particularly as it might influence the bolt) are interesting. Here I can only comment that the action of this rifle displays a lot more slickness than a mint 99 in the safe from the mid 1950�s with less shake and rattle than this rifle and a couple of older, more worn, 1899s. The trigger on this piece is wonderful without being overly light. Before or after leaving the factory, I�m pretty sure this trigger was honed by an artist.

As to �option availability� the list in Murray on page 5-21 in consideration of patent dates on the same page would suggest AT LEAST until 1913 and Murray�s notes on the 250/3000 model indicate that it specifically bundled together many of the most popular �options.� The serial number on this rifle dates it to 1916/1917. I think it likely the �Nickel Plated Trimmings� were available �Special Order Features� when the rifle was made.

6. The intriguing thing for me is that our �Savage collector authorities� who are so insistent on �originality� have not [yet] said exactly what Savage meant (at least as late as 1913 - kudus to Murray) when Savage printed literature said you could order a M1899 with �Nickel plated trimmings.� Without a pretty good understanding of such information voids, it seems to me that more than one original piece has been falsely dismissed by the �expert�.

I don't know compadre, but that gun looks re-done to me. Well done, but re-done nonetheless. If the pics aren't lying, aside from the bluing looking to be the wrong shade- too dark-, the various holes look to have ever so slightly rounded edges, the varnish in the checkering, and the lever itself looks like it spent some time pressed against a polishing wheel as does the bolt, not to mention the wood "shrinkage" already noted by the staff urologist. It could indeed be a trick of the low quality photography but that's what it looks like on my screen.

I would think that Savage would have done a better job of metal prep before sending that lever to the platers. On the other hand, if it turns out to be of factory origin, it would be neat.

If it were mine I would replace the plated bits and lose the 60's-era low end optics and hunt with it. Therein lies it's true value. You probably paid exactly what it's worth in today's money, but way too much in January, 1945 dollars. (When FDR was sworn in for his fourth term, if I'm not mistaken.)

If you go to "LES'S" website savagela.org and you look at the pictures under loggah's 250-3000 you will see what a factory finish rifle looks like. Don

Maybe that old guy who sold it to you polished up his line in addition to the bolt, trigger and lever.

Every LBFM in the Phillipines is a virgin too!

I don't know a thing about factory nickel plating, but I do know one thing.

When you come here................you have to be willing to listen to the brutal truth.

Good, bad, and ugly.................take it or leave it.

If that gun were straight and original, you would never have gotten a crack at it.

Practically never is a firearm what a flea market storyteller/seller says it is.

The subject of this thread can be thrown into the pile of proof of the above statement.


Mike

Loggah's 250-3000.. original finish:

Link to full sized pic

One of my personal favourites. An 1899H special order pistol grip and checkering DOM 1914 in 303 sav (letters). This is original finish.











Blair

When it was pointed out that it was sanded you argued and made excuses. When it was pointed out by many that the blue didn't look right, you argued and made excuses. Does it change anything if anyone her tells you the plating is right or wrong? I suspect that you will not be happy until you hear what you want to hear.

Since the action has been drilled and tapped, the other features you ask about; whether factory or bubba created, aren't really relevant, and have no bearing on the value of the gun. What you have is a very nice shooter at what sound like a very fair price. When you ask the opinion of the guys here, I've learned that you get exactly that....some butally honest and quite educated opinions.

Please pardon my frustration. But as yet, no one has addressed the question posed in the original post. Maybe I have camouflaged the question I asked with enthusiasm for the purchase.

So, most directly: What did you get if you ordered and paid for "Nickel plated trimmings" on your order for Savage M 1899 in 1917 or thereabouts. Murray's reproduction of Savage materials of the period clearly say you can get "Nickel plated trimmings," WTF are they?

I'm pretty sure they a shiny version of stuff you set on the table at Christmas with the Turkey.

Maybe I am naive. But this seems exactly the kind of direct FACTUAL question that anyone claiming to be a Savage expert would be able to answer. If there is one here, I would be ever so grateful for a direct answer.

I appreciate all the opinions, informed and less so and have tried to provide pictures and my observations to indulge both my own enthusiasm and the natural voyeurism of forum participants. But the scope and swivels from the beginning have made it face obvious this is no longer a "factory original" piece of otherwise high collector's value. That, and the possibility that this piece is "cosmetically enhanced," however, are pretty much irrelevant to my question of "trimmings" and their originality. If "trimmings" do not include the shiny parts on this rifle, then opinions about refinishing (or not) are even more irrelevant.

In closing, usually I view "shiny parts" and the like as gaudy decoration. The combination here is in my mind a tasteful enhancement to the appearance of your "ordinary" 1899. Mechanically, this rifle is both unworn and a cut above the norm in action tightness and smoothness with the best trigger I have seen on one, including the three others I currently own. If it proves to shoot anywhere near as well as my TD in 219 Zipper does (NOT FACTORY ORIGINAL!) .......

Yeti,

An earlier 24hrCF thread on special order trimmings.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...tthread/Board/40/main/310614/type/thread

According to Mad Dog, a one-time active poster here, receivers and butt plates were factory NP.

But facts off the Internet are highly suspect. Pay the piper. Get a letter.

Doubtful you will believe any of the posters on this thread anyway.

You will see quite often: Savage, never say never. As for nickel plating I have seen receivers, levers, butt plates but never a bolt or a trigger. It was the day when you didn't have to order the sunshine package to get 2 options that you wanted and 8 that you didn't for a factory special price. If you wanted special plating it was available. Regular bluing with engraving and gold plated screws I have seen, so is just the screws plated what they calling trimmings? I don't know. Heck even the John Francis Dodge rifle which to date is the most ornate savage 1899 shown has a blued trigger and case colour lever. If you asked and paid for it you could get it. Will the records show it probably not, it may show a work order number, but the work orders are long gone.

Blair

Thank you carbon 12 for a most responsive reply.

From the pictures, it appears that legitimate examples of "Nickel plated trimmings" can include a crescent butt-plate (note my example on a 250/3000 is the expected shotgun style and is blued, not plated), the lever, and possibly, given the appearance of the high grade engraved example, the breech bolt bolt. The receiver could also be plated by the factory. But Murray lists this as a separately priced option. In any event, appearance of the lever in the thread you sent is not unlike that on mine and that is encouraging re. my interest.

My second unanswered question is whether or not "Special Order" features are covered in a letter? If someone can affirm this, than there is a $25 path to satisfy my curiosity. I've never seen a Savage letter and don't know what one might reveal in the case of a special order.

My contention with the posters really isn't whether they are right or wrong about a refinish but the willingness a couple to imply I am stupid for things I pointed out myself right at the beginning! In addition, their only issue seems to be perfected originality of the piece, not in understanding what was available from Savage and without really understanding that themselves. And arguing things like "finish color" from my lousy pictures without consideration of camera, lighting, color sensitivity and balance. My pictures were taken hand held in a dim room by flash with an old, cheap camera. Give me five minutes with Photoshop and I'll make them any color you want. As Sara Palin says: Sheeesh! My God. It's me and only me that has looked at the innards including down a bore scope at the barrel! And its also me that knows the gummed up checkering is mostly some still tacky linseed oil. If that ruins originality, then there is not an original piece to be had at a gun show in America. But thank you to whoever it was that put up some very good pictures taken in daylight of a couple of very nice Savages.

The scholarship on Winchesters and Colts is pretty deep and supports pretty good collector expertise, probably because of their deeper role in American History. Not to mention that "mistakes" with Colts and Winchesters can be a lot more expensive. Murray is a good start for Savage, but I had not considered that maybe few Savage collectors even understood the details of info put forward by Murray. I almost didn't put my originality disclaimer re. my Savage 219 Zipper just to let them pompously assert that Savage never chambered the round. One still might.

Within reason, I really don't give a FF what this piece is worth but am genuinely curious about the originality of a feature I have not previously seen on a Savage 1899. It is, minimally, however, in terms of wear, mechanical function, and appearance (relative to the normal "scoped" 99 gray rat out there) a superb example and better worth the price paid than most 1899s you see out there. My God, scarred up and scoped 99Es that were junky when they left the factory with sling swivels and genuine pine (or whatever) stocks are tagged $650 at gun shows! I just last week watched one go at auction for %525. And your typical gray 99 350/3000(or other TD with a scope and shaky barrel) has a $900+ price tag. Anyway ....

Thanks.

And thank you Blair.

Read my previous post for your answer to this question.

Blair

I see one of the main problem with this thread is the quality of the pictures - you must know someone with a better digital camera that could take pictures for you - that would help a lot. I do not know 1899's that well but I do know that when they plated their pistols all the plated parts had a partial serial number on it so that it could be kept seperate because the parts had to be made under size to compensate for the plating - in a 1899 the breech bolt often is serial numbered anyway so that would be no help but if the lever is numbered that would be a tell.

I skimmed through all the early catalogs I have and all list the options almost exactly the same but nowhere could I find a description of what parts were considered trim - that may have to come from a specialty catalog like a wholesale or jobbers or a sperate brochure. Here is what is in catalog #60 from 1916~1917 -


I also have never had someone explain to me how to tell nickel plating for chrome, I do not know how to tell - how do you know the plating is nickel and not more modern chrome?

Gene

And...another troll is born...

A letter may not tell all special order spec. as the work order
cards for special shop work were lost!!!Now only work order #
may show up.

WOW... the simple fact is, the gun is refinished, when you have seen a few thousand Savage 99s, you can just tell, even from crappy internet pics, I promise. All of the foremost experts have ALL agreed your gun is refinished. so you think that someone refinished the bluing and stocks, drilled holes and added a scope but that high polish chrome on the trigger, lever, and maybe bolt are original???? Its just not sensible... those would have been the first areas to show wear. The few plated rifles that have been seen show that the plating wore easily. It just does not follow that someone would reblue a gun if it was not well worn and if so, it would have shown first on the lever, trigger, and bolt.

If the gun had special work done on it, you would at least get a reference to a work order with out what was actually done. You are unlikely to get such info in my estimate but go for it. It does seem the only way you will be satisfied.

Yeti, 25$ will tell you all you will ever know about your rifle!! you can speculate about every single part forever , and your still no going to know!!!!! Don

one of the main reasons i didnt pick up the plated rifle, i run across, price was right just didnt look all that good to me, and didnt think the work was done at the factory! tho it might have been. as the gun was well worn.

Again, from looking at those poor quality pics the plating appears to be chrome,not nickel. Old nickel has a kind of a faint yellowish tint to it. This stuff looks like it came off of a '56 Chevy. Judging from the poor looking (again, the impression I get from those pics) prep work on the lever under the plating and what looks to me to be chrome plating, I'll guess that thing was done when the receiver was re-blued. If the letter comes back and flat out says the lever was nickel plated from new it would be a moot point as it sure isn't now.

I'll bet you could have had your entire gun nickel plated at the factory (plus your wife and kids too) if you were willing to pony up the extra cost.

Like I said before, you got a decent deal. I would have been tempted. It'll make a better hunting rifle than 90% of stuff on the new rack today.

Here are two pictures of a gun I believe was likely factory nickel finished on the lever and plate... these are the only two picture I received and do the over all condition of this gun and the other that were for sale and the difficulty of working with the seller, I did not pursue any more pictures or information. the serial is in the low 12.xxx range. You can see how very little nickel remains. It was, im my opinion, clearly once a nice custom ordered factory 1899 that saw a LOT of use.

I also shrunk these pretty good so it might really be hard to see.