I know there are a lot of fans of the Partition out here, and I've used them to great success. But I've been working up some loads for testing and have never tried an A-Frame in any of my guns.
Specifically, I'm debating whether to play with the 280 grain A-Frame in my .358 Norma, but can't seem to justify it on ballistics alone when compared with the higher muzzle velocity and way better BC of a 250 Partition.
In general, do you gain anything with the A-Frame in terms of terminal performance? I have a pretty good feeling the 250 Partition will give me complete penetration from most angles on elk, so I'm not sure I'll be able to take advantage of whatever additional penetration I might get with the 280 A-Frame.
Most of my guns have shot Partitions very well, but I haven't heard many folks exclaim the accuracy they get from A-Frames.
Does anybody get better accuracy out of A-Frames compared to Partitions?
This is primarily for elk, but there's a fair chance some mule deer might get introduced to this rig.
Does anyone believe the flatter nose of an A-Frame will initiate expansion a little better than a Partition(which seem to do pretty good on that end in my experience).
Anything else I didn't think of? I'd appreciate any thoughts ya'll have.

I will chime in and say the A-frame is one of the easier super premium bullets to get to shoot well. Terminal performance is superb...like the Partition but with more weight retention.It is, without a doubt on my top 2 list of bullets for large game, accuracy and performance wise..
Ingwe

Let me first say that Im a Partition fan. I have found that the A-frames shot similar to Partitions in my rifles, which is to say "good"
Concerning deer and elk I would use whichever shoots best and never look back.

KC

The Aframe is, I think,simiar in performane to the old Bitterroot,which I've been using a long time,and the reason I've only shot Aframes but not yet used them on game,cause I have lots of Bitterroots.In my 270's the 130 Aframe is accurate and follows the same trajectory path to 400 yards as the Nosler Partition,as far as I've shot them.

This is anecdotal, but a friend who posts on here makes a habit of using different 130-270 bullets on each trip to Africa.He has told me the Aframe is excellent,a quick killer and would be his choice if he could only have one bullet in the 270.He has used them on stuff up to zebra in size.

If,as,and when my B'roots are gone,the Partition and Aframe are the two expanding bullets I'd use for any of my hunting in the future.

Hey Ex,
You and I have had a few conversations about bullets and such already, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here anyways.

To answer one of your questions, yes, I've had a rifle, a M70 Classic in .338 Win. that never did like partitions, but shot the A-Frames very well. Killed my Brown Bear with that rifle and bullet. On the other hand, many of my rifles have shot both types of bullets equally well. I've never had a problem getting A-Frames to shoot accurately, but I can't say that about other bullets, including Partitions. It will probably just depend on what your rifle likes.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that will have much bad to say about A-Frames or Partitions. Both are excellent bullets. My opinion is that for elk and deer, you can count on great performance from each bullet at about any angle, especially in your rifle. From a ballistic standpoint, you're right that the lighter bullet will give you some advantage, but probably not enough to worry about under field conditions. Therefore, I'd choose whichever one shot the most accurately. If you're getting acceptable accuracy with both bullets, then I'd use the cheaper of the two unless you have a desire to use one bullet over the other just for experience sake.

Now, if you were going on a hunt of a lifetime, say for Brown Bear, Lion, Cape Buffalo, etc., then I personally would load the A-Frames since I have a greater amount of confidence in them than I do the Partitions. However, that is just my personal feeling and I doubt I'd ever run into any issues if I were to choose the Partition. Bottom line is that you can't lose either way.

Test

A-Frames don't necessarily penetrate deeper than Partitions, even though they retain more weight. (At least in smaller calibers. Many of the bigger Partitions are designed to retain around 85-90% of their weight. But I don't know if 250-grain .35's aare designed that way today.)

A lot depends on velocity. A-Frames are actually softer than Partitions, despite the front core being bonded. They're made with super copper and, I believe, pure lead as well. Consequently at higher impact velocities they open up wider--and the rear core (which isn't bonded to the jacket) tends to shift forward, expanding the rear end as well. In this case the extra diameter tends to limit penetration.

A Partition is made with harder jacket and core alloys, with the exception of the front core, which is pretty soft. Because the front end isn't bonded, it tends to open up quickly (and violently) but then the jacket curls back over the rear of the bullet. This creates a smaller frontal area than with the A-Frame.

The rear end has a harder alloy and, in many cases, slightly thicker sidewalls of a tougher gilding-metal alloy. Thus the rear end doesn't usually expand as it does on an A-Frame--or at least not as easily.

The end result is that penetration is usually similar with thw two bullets, though much depends on impact velocity.

In the instance you're asking about, you're not going to get much more than 2600 fps out of the 280 A-Frame. Or at least that's what I get out them in my own .358 Norma. This isn't really high velocity, so the bullets won't expand as much as they would if going faster.

In my own rifle the 250 Partition outshoots the 280 A-Frame by a noticeable margin, but that doesn't mean it will in all rifles. In a .35-caliber rifle accuracy would also tend to involve the rifling twist. Some still have 1-16 twists and might not stabilize the 280 well. I believe that's the case with my own rifle. But newer 35's tend to have tighter twists of 1-14 or even 1-12 and will shoot any bullet weight quite accurately.

I like the 280gr Aframe it shoots good in my 358STA with 86gr of 4831sc. Its my big bear gun if I ever get to goooooo......




100yard.....

John,
I have noticed that the velocties listed in Swift's reloading manual for the A-Frame seems somewhat slower across the board(for the most part) than that which is listed for Partitions?

Could that be because of the softer jacket that Swift uses for the A-frame, making the bullets 'stick' in the bore somewhat-thus raising pressures?

Thanks

John, thanks for the 2 boxs of 280gr A-frame that you sold me

Wowsa, a 280 out of a 358 STA with 86 of H4831 @ 2856 fps or something like that...

For quite some time I used the 250's and H4831 in my 340 for about the same kind of speed and if I recall right I was running 85 grains.

I have no knowledge and or clue (which is totally obvious) but that seems like an awfully stout load for a 280? Doesn't it...?

Thx
Dober

Exbiologist: I use Nosler Partitions in several of my Big Game Hunting Rifles and have never been disappointed, nor ever had any inkling of a reason to even try anything else.
This use began in 1961 - or nearly half a century ago.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Dober, stout load and a safe load. No flat primers easy bolt lift and the 8mm mag brass is on its 5th reload and not lost one case yet. The STA is a 1:14 twist and my 225gr TSX load is 91gr of RL19 @3100fps its shoot very very good :GRIN: and max load for the 225gr TSX is 93gr of RL19 @3200+fps but the bolt was hard to lift when shooting on a 90 der day in july... So will not go any higher than 91gr plus I think 3100fps will get the job done on a elk or moose.....

Randy,
I bet both of those loads would be great on elk or moose!

Tim,
It maybe a tad over kill....grins... but what the he11... To tell you the truth if I was going on a elk or moose hunt one of my Kimbers would get the nod....

Have you been shooting your 375H&H?

Thx STA, till know I've not thought much about the 35's exceptin in a Marlin...may have to change that thought process...

That's a lot of gas, has the makings to be a heck of a yote load!

How long of tube are your running?

Dober

25inch Shilen #4....

Dober, you dont like yotes very much do you....grins...

Thx, I likey!

Beat up on any elk with it and that load yet? I'm for betting it just might work...grin

Dober

No just paper with the 280's but have killed some Missouri whitetails with the 225's....

Dober,
Whats the build of your 340Roy?

Thanks, MD, for the in depth details on the constuction and general performance of both bullets.
I've found that the SAF 160 gr. 284 bullets take about one grain more H4350 in my .280 to get the same velocity as other 160 gr. bullets. I suspect the relief cut around the AF is the reason.
I, too, have used lots of Partitions on all sorts of things. But I'm now loading the SAF 160 gr. bullets in my .280 for elk. We rifle looneys just love to split hairs. I've already found that the 160 gr. Partition, even though it only exited at 2680 fps out of my first 280, would work very well out to at least 400 yds. My "reasoning" is that the SAF may produce a slightly wider would channel and I kinda like that. In the .280 anyway. Now for my new custom mauser '06, I suspect that either the 180 gr. or the 200 gr. NP would be what gives me the warm fuzzys.
For the 760, '06 I'm acquiring, it's going to be a toss up between the 200 gr. NP or, gasp !, the 220 gr. Hornady RN..... It all depends on how close to zero my practice ammo, and the custom peep sight setup works.
I've got it all figured out you see. Now, as long as the critters and the hunting conditions don't upset my game plan, which they've been known to do.... E

Not yet, would you believe?
Work has been kicking my butt, I need to get out and burn some powder!
Ah well, not too long and I should be able to do just that.

Tim,
ship her to me here in Denver, and give it a go.... :GRIN:

Sure thing!

Mikey said you were working out of Denver again.
How's that treating you, Randy?

Thanks for the input guys,
I've got that "Medium Mediums" article laying around here somewhere, which is kinda what got me interested in building a .358 Norma. The twist on my rifle is 1:12, so I have little doubt about it stabilizing properly. I guess I'll just try em and see.

It sucks being away from the family.... But I still have a pay check.......

exbiologist,
Don't rule out the 225gr TSX in that Norma of yours. Would be my choice for muledeer & elk combo.....


I bet the TSX will out shoot both 250gr NP and the 280gr AF and doing so with less recoil and shooting flater to...

STA,
Don't be silly. You know you can't use a PF as your BEAR rifle!

Jordan, I have been told that before........ :GRIN: Hell your from Calgary, so I bet you have so many bear you trip over them on you way to work.....;)

Yeah I''m eyeing the TSX too, but I like heavy bullets. However, I think I can spit those out at way over 2900, probably closer to 3000. I'm getting in the low to mid 2800s with most powders using 250 gr Speers and Partitions.
Lets do a little 400 yard comparo here(200 yd sight in, 20 mph wind):
225 TSX at 2950 (BC .359) 1986 fps, 1971 ft lbs, drop 23.36, drift 31.53)
225 Accubond at 2950 (BC .421) 2116 fps, 2237 ft lbs, drop 21.91, drift 26.22
250 Partition at 2840 (BC .446) 2068 fps, 2374 ft lbs, drop 23.3, drift 25.86
280 A Frame at 2650 (BC .388) 1813 fps, 2044 ft lbs, drop 28.58, drift 33.45
I like how the Partition stacks up with its superior BC, assuming that's a correct value. I know I'm magnifying differences here with a 20 mph cross wind and 400 yard measurements, but for me those bullets are going to have to be a lot more accurate than the Partitions to see some field time.

Nolser shows the 225 Partition @ .430
and the 225 Accubond @ .421

Now my way of thinken a B-tip boattail accubond would have a better BC than a flat base bullet of the same weight.

With the 225gr TSX I have only shot them out to 500yds and my STA with a 200yd zero shoot as flat as a 300win shooting Horndy HM 180gr @ 3100fps....

Will say the 250gr NP would be a fine bullet

just looked and the BC .405 on the 225TSX.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=166406

never the less its fun to play with the big 35's

That's funny, my Barnes manual has the 225 TSX listed at .359, but I've seen how in some data sources they change the BC based on muzzle velocity and Barnes doesn't show any data for the big .35s (Norma or STA). And yeah, real curious as to why with an Accubond and Partition of the same weight, the Partition would have a better BC.
Guess, I better shoot em all and find out for myself.

340boy,

Yeah, the pure-copper jacket of A-Frames is "stickier" than the gilding metal (90-95% copper and the rest zinc) used for jackets by most bulet manufacturers. This is indeed the reason Swift's data is slower than that for most other bullets. A-Frames tend to create a little more pressure.

In fact in Swift's manual, the top velocities for the 280-grain in the .358 Norma are around 2500 fps. I for around 2600 out of my .358 Norma with a load halfway between Swift's starting load and maximum load, so stopped there.

In theory the .358 STA should be able to get about 100 fps more than the .358 Norma with the same bullets weights. I had a .358 STA with a 23" barrel for a while and never felt comfortable with more than 2700 fps with the 280-grain Swift. Eventually I decided the cartridge was essentially a .375 H&H, and in fact used .375 brass to load it. Never could see what it would do that the .375 wouldn't, but we all have fun foolin' with 'em!

Its only money....The big bullet companies love people like us.... Is the Norma going elk hunting this year?

Thanks John!

Heck yes the Norma is going elk hunting this year! I call her The Green Iron Fist. Anyway, I cleaned out all of my rifles except two when I got my FFL, so now I just have my maple stocked .264 and this synthetic stocked .358(the .338 WSSM project went bye-bye). The .358 also weighs a whole bunch less than the .264, and since it is my only bad weather/rough country gun(although the .264 has been carried in some rough country, it's probably pushing 10 pounds, I'll weigh em both when I ship my next gun) it will likely get the nod more often than not this year. And we've got a whole bunch of tags coming this June with which to decide who's going where.
Already got my Middle Fork B tag (backpack hunt Idaho in September, plus deer and bear), I'll have two tags here in Colorado (don't know where yet), and I might draw for New Mexico. Then we have to decide whether she or the .264 gets the nod for Colorado deer, Nevada deer (if I draw) or New Mexico deer (if I draw). The .264 already has dibs on Wyoming antelope and deer.

Nice I need to get my STA bloody agen soon.... (The Green Iron Fist) lol....I like it.... Got any pics?

I'm debating getting my STA bloody this year as well. It's been 7 years since it's drawn blood. I think it's about time. It's getting a make over, new stock, mounts, and floorplate this summer and will be like a new gun. Moose hunting in BC this year, so maybe I'll take it.

I've thought about trying the 280s several times over the years, but so far the performance of the 250 NP at 2950fps (23 1/2 inch barrel) has not let me down, so I haven't been able to make myself buy a box of the A-frames.

Here they are. I just took the picture. They're all I have left at the moment (oh yeah, and my original .30 Newton). The Green Iron Fist ain't much to look at compared to Miss America (fitting name for a high maintenance, high performance, piece of arm candy ). But I took that .264 on all my hunts last year (two elk in Colorado, deer in Maine, skunked on Colorado deer and tag soup in NM and CA cause I couldn't go). And the .264 loves her 140 Partitions.

I have never had Partitions shoot under an 1" in any of the 10 guns I have tried them in. On the other hand, A Frames shoot one hole 3 shot groups in my 7 Wby with two loads, 140's @ 3225 fps and again at 3400 fps. Honestly I wish the PT's would shoot in my 280's but they won't. I like the A Frames and would choose them above any other premium. I like the North Fork premiums until they priced them above my means.

Did you find a good load for them 200's in your STA?

Plan to start trying them next month. Should have the new stock bedded by then.

exbiologist, I could hunt with your 264 and 358 and be happy doing so! Nice rifles......

Kodiakisland
its Scott right?

What stock you going with?

Performance-wise, I haven't really seen much difference betwen A-Frames and Partitions. From what I've observed, Mule Deer has given a spot on description of their terminal ballistics. One definite advantage of the Partitions is there are many more choices than A-Frames.

In my rifles, I've generally had better accuracy with A-Frames than Partitions, but there are exceptions. I don't recall any heavy for caliber A-Frames that didn't shoot well in my rifles and I haven't tried any light A-Frames. I've had poor luck with some Partitions like the 175 gr. .284 (7 RM), the 165 (30-06) and 170 gr. (30-30) .308s, and the 210 gr. in a .338 WM. My 7mm RM shoots other 175s well and the 30-30 is usually good with 170s. My '06 and .338 WM, however, just don't seem to like those particular bullet weights - so I'm not sure how to interpret that information.

My particular STA shot 280 gr. A-Frames as well as any bullet I ever tried in that gun. It grouped < 1 MOA out to 300 yds. Unfortunately that gun didn't shoot very well otherwise, possibly because there was a real shortage of good quality .358 hunting bullets. I'm a die-hard .358 fan, but for some reason (read .338 and 9.3), there hasn't been much recent interest in making heavy .358 bullets. There seem to be plenty of good low to mid velocity bullets to feed my 35 Rem., .356, and Whelen, but not much for the STA. I finally gave it up and went back to my 375 H&H that not only shoots almost anything well but hits harder than the STA. For those that are hanging on to their big 358 Normas, 350 Rigbys, and 358 STAs I'm glad to see that Woodleigh is bringing out some new .358 bullets this year and Alaska Bullet works is offering their 275 gr. bonded bullet again.

Its Dave.
I just got a McMillan supergrade (M70) in the mail today from MWarren. The old stock is an A-Square hamilcar stock. It's almost twice the size of the supergrade. Should make for a better handling rifle.

Thanks Randy,
They're a pretty festive little combination. Load development and plinking here in the yard is just about done, gonna spend some time on a real bench with her Saturday.

Dave,
Sorry about that wrong name thing. I remember when I first came to the Campfire in 2005 you were kind enough to chated with this new guy about the 358STA. I change my user name from RL KURTZ to STA......

exbiologist,
I load for the 264Win to. I like the 120gr Nosler B-Tip and H 4831sc.

I've got a handful of 100 gr Ballistic Tip antelope grenades loaded with N160, H4831, H1000, RL19, IMR 4350, 7828 and 4064, 140 gr Partitions and Speers with US869, 7828SSC, H4831, and Retumbo for the .264. Plus 4007SSC, RL19, IMR4350 and 4064 and N160 with 250 gr Speers and Partitions for The Green Iron Fist.
On top of that, I'm loading an antelope/plinker 100 gr Hornday in my buddy's .270 and a couple 200 gr Accubonds for his .300 Win Mag.
It better not rain on me, I got a lot of work to do.

Sounds like a fun day at the range....... :GRIN: I have not pulled a trigger in 4 or 5 weeks....... Need to get to the range and work up a load with my 257Roy and 100gr Scirocco II plus thinken about tring some moly....

I built a wildcat that predated the 358STA because I got my hands on a supply of 250gr 35 cal Bitterroots.I specified necking up the 8RM Mag case,and as JB points out I mostly necked down and blew out the 375H&H case.It gave a bit over 3000 fps with the 250gr bullets from a 24" 12 twist Krieger;it also kicked like hell,and shot as flat as a 180 gr 30 cal to 400 yards.

At the same time I discovered the 375H&H would propel a 250 375 at 2900 (faster in "loose" barrels),and dropped another 4" at 400 yards. It kicked significantly less and burned less powder.

It was a great cartridge but did not do much the 375H&H did not do,so like John B I concluded a magnum jug 35 is just a 375H&H in drag.When I saw results of the 375-250 Bitterroot on Brown Bear,I forgot about big 35's,and all the other medium bores as well, including the 338 and 340.

Randy,
I didn't know you were a 264 shooter.
I would like to try one some time.
So many rifles, so little free time!

Get a 7 STW. It makes everything else as a long range bomber look sub par at best.

I got some free time I'll lend you gainfully employed guys! <g>

(In this case, <g> stands for "groan")

I've been busting hump putting hardwood floors in my living room and kitchen this last week. MAN the floor is a long ways away from the rest of me! Turned out great though. Think I'll go shootin' today.

Uh... on topic, sort of... the .225-gn 35-cal Partition shoots very well for me out to 400 yards. The BC that Nosler states matches up well with my ballistics software FWIW.

Jeff,
You shooting the 35 cal Parts. out of your 358Winny, or do you own a Norma or STW?

Yeah, they're as bad as prairie dogs around here. When spring comes around every year, I just find myself a good "bear town" and after watching 'em pop up and down out of their dens all afternoon, I take my pick.

Tim, I load for a Model 70 Classic. A freind and I was at a gunshow and found a very nice one for 600 bucks. I told him if he buys the rifle I would load for him he did so I do.....


I also like the 264Win brass for my 257Roy....

A bear town...lol... must be nice...I think in the hole state of Missouri we have less than 20....

Would love to send you some of ours.

Will the bears need a passport..... :GRIN:

For you Randy we'll work around it.grin

Sound GOOD!

Mike, that avitar of yours is that a Panzer?

The only rifle I can directly compare Partitions and A-Frames in is my .257 Roberts with 120g versions of each. The A-Frames shot considerably better.

Sample of one, for what it is worth.

Another sample of one-
My 340 Wby shoots quite well with the 225 grain A-Frame-certainly better than with partitions, though the partitions show acceptable accuracy.

I shot them recently in a 270 FW and the Partitions shoot "better" in that rifle,but the Aframe stayed in an inch,while the Partition shot bug-hole groups.Just like any bullets, accuracy will vary depending on the rifle.

Yup the Tiger.

Germans have always made some of the best stuff!

Well, I'm getting acceptable accuracy with the Partitions and Speers. But I'd like to do a little better. Might help to not do this on a drizzly day, but I was getting 1.25-1.5 inch groups with some loads (RL19 was more like a buckshot pattern=2.5-3 inches, odd)). Both bullets would land two shots within 1/2 inch, then put the third about an inch away. Could just be me, but I was shooting lights out with the .264 (1/2 inch 5 shot, 1/3 inch 3 shot groups with the antelope load) in the same conditions.
I guess I will try some A-Frames.

I use A-Frames in my .338 Win Mag because they shoot more accurately than anything else that I tried in that rifle. I think that they might do a little more damage inside the body cavity compared with Partitions. I only have two elk taken with A-Frames compared to a half-dozen or so taken with Partitions in various chamberings. I would just shoot whichever is most accurate in your rifle. The difference in terminal performance is not that great.

Good luck!! For that hunt, I'd suggest which ever is lighter!!! That's some big, mean country.

I'm sorta digging your duo of rifles. I hunt everything with a ruger MKII 338 Win. (pronghorn's hate 210gr Partitions ) If/when I add something else to it, the practical side of me thinks 270/30-06/7mag. But, you're making me think that a pair of Rugers in 'Westerner' and 'Alaskan' dress wouldn't suck either...

That is mean territory.
Gotten my share of blisters and sore muscles in that country!

Good luck to you, Exbio!

I was able to avoid the blisters, but sore musclers were a given. Spent 20+ days in there last year helping a pard with a sheep tag.

Big country....

Very nice pictures, Pointer.
You spent 20 days up there?
You are a lucky man!

Thanks Pointer, great pictures. I'm pumped about the hunt. And I think my combination of guns is suitable for nearly any condition or game animal without being overkill or underkill, plus one has the looks, the other one is all business. But the looker is also a killer shooter (blueprinted using single point method, lilja barrel, glass bedded, sweet trigger, 1/2 inch 3 shot groups are norm with several combinations). However, the big Norma will be coming with me on the Idaho hunt for sure because it is the lightest of the two, by at least 2 pounds. So, it may still take some tweaking to get the new Norma to shoot to my satisfaction, but I'm confident she will.

Pointer....I do love that .338mag! Great pictures and man those hills look steep to this flatlander. Yep, looks like a young man's game, I betcha they sell air at the top for 10bucks a bottle hey.LOL

Now getting back to those bullets gents! I like the Nosler Partitions a bunch but not so much for big bull elk. I instead go the route of the Swift A Frames or Bear Claws. The Swift bullet mushrooms out bigger and creates a larger wound channel than the Nosler Partiton.

In tests I ran, the Swift A Frame penetrated deeper and still had over 90% of the bullet left. The Nosler Partition only had 56% of the bullet left. The Nosler Partiton Gold had 72% of the bullet left in tact.

340- The 20 days were spread over two separate trips. One involved a lot of walking in and one involved a plane ride and about 40 miles of rafting! It' didn't suck...

That's what I'm shooting for as well! The problem I'm having is whether to pick a logistically practical chambering (ie 270, 30-06, 308 etc) or something a bit more exotic, but not available in every super mart store. Good luck, take lots of pics and get back on that stairmaster!

Pointer,
If something exotic excites you (and it does for me), then go that route. A 270, 30-06 or 308 doesn't excite me, or I'm assuming you. Besides you can get something very similar and still have factory loaded stuff available(if that's a selling point), ie .280 Remington(or AI), .338 Federal, .264 Win Mag, 6.5-284, .257 and .270 Wby, etc . That way it's at least out of the norm, if not truly exotic, like a 7x61 S&H, .257 STW, 7mm JRS, 6.5 WSM, 8mm-06 AI, 6.5-300 Wby, etc.
Or one other route to go is make an exciting gun in a plain jane chambering, like a Mannlicher-style stock in high grade English Walnut(or Mesquite, or Purple Heartwood with zebrawood forend and grip cap or whatever), neato-torpedo sights, slicked up and blueprinted action, etc, etc, etc.
That example isn't exactly the Westerner vs. the Alaskan (which you have), but you get the point. If you're looking to fill that niche, the Westerner should be the looker in a .270 to .30-06 power range (but not necessarily those chamberings). The big ugly can of course handle the lighter duties, but lighter gun may be a little light for the big stuff that the Alaskan is called for, which is why the Alaskan should also be the gun you are more inclined to take out in inclement weather.
Let us know what you do!

That was the initial hype BC value that all the X/TSX's had.

The 270 gr 375 cal TSX had a BC of .503......Yaeh right!


Now it has been recalibrated or at least assigned a BC of .326. Geez were they ever off!

exbio-
As of right now, I am sota leaning towards something more 'unique', but that may change by tomorrow. The practical side of my brain can see the benefit of having a nearly always available chambering. But, I don't shoot factory ammo anyway and haven't lost or forgot my ammo yet... So, maybe the correct Loony thing to do would be to build something fun and then find a good factory rifle in a common chambering that can work back up! Yeah, that's it 3 guns instead of two!!! I'll let you know what I end up doing, but $$ will be making it a ways in the future. Besides, thinking/planning these types of things is nearly as much fun as doing it!

Barnes now lists the BC of the .338, 225 gr. TSX as .386. They also list the BC of the 270 gr., .375 as .326. E

Now how about that Nosler Accubond bullet? Nosler has it's B.C. listed at .550 for the 225 grain bullet, just food for though elk hunters.

Exbiologist,

Please tell me about the stock on your Norma, as well as the paint she's wearing ...

Tonk, the .358 225 gr Accubond is listed at .421, the .338 225 is the .550 BC you mention, and thats less than the .250 gr Partition.

Condition Yellow,
It's called the Alaska Wilderness Hunter II by Bell and Carlson. It weighs 26 ozs with 1" Pachmayr decelerator, aluminum bedding block and is the OEM stock for Remington's Titanium 700s. Mine's a little different in that it has the soft-touch (dura touch?) coating. I got it from Stocky's www.stockysstocks.com.
There's also a tan with black webbing, gray with black, black with gray and some other variations.
I like it, but the grip is a little fuller than I prefer.

Accuracy mostly depends on the gun, they have a habit of being very individual...

I have not read all these posts as I know what they will say and that the bottom line is it just depends on your personal experience..

I have never had any trouble getting Noslers to shoot into an inch if the gun is capable and all my present guns are..

I don't like the way Swift A-Frames kill game, they ball up into a overly smooth ball and sometimes don't leave a very good blood trail, and game makes a lot of tracks with them...

I like the way Nosler kill game, even when the front portion blows off, as that does a lot of damage, but if this is problematic with you then go one weight heavier and it won't happen..You will always get an exit hole with Noslers except at severe angles and in rare conditions what ever they may be..

It's an individual choice, and I base mine solely on shooting a rather large number of animals with both bullets, and opted for the Nosler..I also like the Sirroco better than the A-Frame, particularly on lighter game.

One of the things I really like about a Woodleigh bullet is those extended lead coated wings that look and perform like propellers that rip and tear and cause profuse bleeding and internal damage as they pass through an animal...They are excellent bullets also.

Can't speak to any other 225-gn bullet from a .338, but MAN that Accubond rocks at longer ranges! I've shot probably 400-500 of them out to 650 yards. They are frighteningly accurate in my rifle- which will vary from gun to gun- but to the point, they buck wind like no other hunting bullet I've tried, and they sure make an impression on the steel plate when they arrive!

My pard Jerry has 2 elk with this bullet in the last 3 years, also. Both DRT at ~300 yards. Both exited. FWIW.

Ray,

Hate to change the subject to another bullet but since you mentioned them, Woodleighs. Any experience in the 7mm variety? Would you consider them soft enough for game as light as deer? 140gr at 2900fps or 160gr at 2700fps?

I really like the idea of a bonded bullet but I hate plastic tips...

Thanks, Exo. What is the length of pull? I can't seem to find it on Stocky's site.

I have seen the Partions come apart on elk several times... This should be a no brainer. Swift all the way..

I would greatly appreciate hearing the details of the Partitions that came apart on elk. Thanks!

Yeah me too with pictures! I like the way the partitions work and I use them whenever I want to without problems. The A frames might be good bullets too but I don't have 600 of them on the shelf.

Well it was 4-5 years ago, my hunting partner was using a Rem 7mm Mag, shot at an elk about 350-400yards ,and shot 5 times at his elk,hitting him every time, except once, and finially downed his elk. We had to quarter the elk out, and we found 3 out of the four bullets. Most of the bullets had fragmented, and the largest one looked like the size of a pensil eraser. I dont have any pictures, but, i remember my hunting partner saying , that he would never use them again.. They were good bullets 20 years ago, and still are, but there are so many others out there that are far better.. You spend 5-600 on a gun,3-400 on a scope, maybe a lot more, iam being conservative, plane fare, or gas money to drive there, use a week of vacation or more, pay for your hunting licence.,, and the most important and last thing that leaves your barrel is your bullet. You might only get one shot, so please dont skimp on those bullets, spend another dollar and buy some better bullets....

Still have never seen a partition that "failed".

Lots of guys have posted here with "failed" partitions from very dead animals that did not run away.

The front half coming off and the rear plowing through is what it is designed to do.

Just my 2 cents.

BMT

Brucie,

Thanks for the info.

But I have seen literally hundreds of big game animals shot with Nosler Partitions, the bullet ranging from 60-grain .224's to .416 400's, the animals including not only elk but moose, and a bunch of African animals of the same general size, from 400-1500 pounds.

I have never seen anything like you describe, and find it difficult to believe that 160-grain 7mm Partitions would do that at 350-400 yards, much less at close range.

I suspect your friend either got hold of some really mystical Partitions that somehow acted like varmint bullets, or didn't actually know what bullets were in his ammunition. Sorry to be so doubtful, but your story is so different than anything seenin my 30-some years experience with Partitions that is just sounds like something really fishy.

What you have described is not classic Partition performance. PT's were designed to loose the front core and let it shred tissue in the wound. The rear core remains intact in the rear portion of the partition to maintain weight and provide deep penetration.Maybe one might "fail" but 3-4 in the same animal? Not questioning you but maybe your friend "thought" he was shooting Partitions when in fact he was shooting another bullet. I dun no.

JD338

I know i would receive a lot of static from those die hard partition fans, but seeing is beleiving.. The next day , i asked to see his box of bullets, and they were factory bullets.. Cant remember the brand name or weight.. Come on guys, you can kill an elk with ANY bullet out there, and in any cailber, as long as you place your shot.. Its that some bullets are better than others, and through the years , bullet develoment has change and gotten better.. This is 2009, not the 70s. End of story.

Or maybe your friend thought the bullets were failing, but in reality they were just loosing the front core like they are supposed to.

OR, it could be that the holy patition failed. I'm not neive enough to think that there is a bullet out there that doesn't fail from time to time...

For some reason I get the feeling alot of folks are laughing at their monitors about now!

MtnHtr

One story so far, (I have this friend)



What?

Please, more about the several times.

Personally,
I think these Bullshit stories about Partitions 'coming apart' are from folks that don't realize(or care) that the front end of a Partition is designed to fragment, letting the core pass on through and do its job-which they do rather well, I might add.

Yep, those weak partition bullets do come apart on elk and I can prove it. I shot two elk with the .375 partition and both bullets were all mashed up after they went through. The first busted a shoulder, a little bit of spine about two feet long, and you could see that stubby little piece that was left through a tiny slit in the off-side hide of the hindquarter where it had almost penetrated.

The second time the damn bullet got all mashed up on just a leg bone and stopped after only plowing a hole through the heart, lungs, and a couple of feet of intestines and ribs. This one didn't exit either.

Don't know what's wrong with those bullets but I figure if I shoot another half a dozen elk with them maybe I can figure it out.

Haven't seen hundreds but I'd estimate close to a hundred and have never seen anything like that myself. In fact, my buds and I have shot Ballistic Tips into 15-20 critters and have no stories like that. To be more factual, I shoot 150 BT in my 30-06 Encore and 308 Bellm Contender pistols - and have shot through several buck shoulders at close range. At slower velocities, the BT work fairly well.

I also have 30-40 recovered Partitions shot into dirt/clay banks with 7, 300, 338 mags and all manner of cartridges from 338 on down and have never seen one come apart. Front gone - yes, bulged rear - yes, shrapnel from the front core - yes, come apart - never. My average weight of all my Partition bullets is 62-65% - not many lower, not many higher. If the front core is gone, and the rear core stays intact, they will weigh 62% almost exactly regardless of caliber, initial size, etc. I don't ever recall seeing the "partition" rupture - even when shot from 10 feet into dirt/clay at magnum velocities.

I'd be curious to know what year this was. I don't recall Nosler bullets being used in factory loadings till ~ the past 10 years. I could be wrong.................

Sounds like he just didn't pull the trigger hard enough.

End of story??? It aint over till we say it is well if this aint a bullet proof testimony(no pun intended) then i dont know what is

Interesting people claim that the partition is "designed" to lose the front portion of the bullet after impact. Is there really a benifit to this?

If the lead/copper is being peeled off the front of the bullet hasn't the lead/copper lost it's forward progress in and around the wound channel? So it isn't like you now have multiple pieces flying through the vitals causing any more damage then the "main" portion of the bullet. Just my opinion but what would the real downside be to bonding the front portion of the partition other then a slight increase in cost? Obviously Nosler has the experience to get it done if they wanted.

Yes, the Partition was originally designed so that the front 1/3 (or so) would pretty much fly apart. This was because John Nosler had shot a lot of big game animals, and wanted a bullet that would work on deer as well as bigger game. He had already noticed that a bullet that partially fragmented killed deer-sized game a lot quicker.

This has been written about a lot before now> If you want proof of that assertion I can provide it. But the concept that 90-100% weight retention is necessary to kill big game--or is even better than partial fragmentation--is a very recent notion, and in my experience, quite wrong.

Yes, the lead/copper fly off the front of the bullet and damage more vital tissue.

In bigger bullets, Nosler has moved the partition forward in recent years. In any bullet from the 9.3 286 up they will retain 85-95% of their original weight, and penetrate about as far as any expanding bullet. This is because those bullets are normally used on bigger than deer-sized game--though I have also shot quite a few "deer-sized" animals with Partitions in sizes from 250-grain .338 on up to know they kill quite quickly.

Gotcha. I still think there could be a little more taper to the jacket above the partition to support more frontal mass even without bonding. I always thought they lost the front section too early but maybe that was just the particular weights and calibers I used them in.

The front end varies according to the caliber and weight. In smaller calibers they're designed so the front end is just about guaranteed to disappear, because the jacket is so thin. In heavier, larger bullets the jacket is thicker, and the partition moved further forward, so that even if the front core leaves the rest of the bullet will keep going.

As a matter of fact, most of the bullet makers adjust various things according to caliber and intended use. Even in "ordinary" bullets the core alloy is often different in heavier bullets.

So it really isn't valid to judge all bullets of a certain make or design on one diameter/weight.

The more "parachute" the less the penetration will ultimately be... in general. The Partition concept, for being as simple as it is, was really well thought out and probably way ahead of its time considering that it is still a standard against which others are compared. The SAF which was later "invented" to improve upon the highly reputed Partition is actually inferior is some ways in its performance since it retains the front core. The expanded shape is good for penetration since it tends to ball. That, as Ray (atkinson) said helps it to slide through. However, it still often fails to penetrate as far as a Partition which sheds the core and peels back into a blunter, close to original diameter projectile. The Partition gives you the best of two worlds (if you happen to want both); a good "explosion" followed by deep penetration.

Brucie: at 300-400 yards, even a "old school" Interlock should be working perfectly too. Pretty hard to be convinced that a Partition would be coming apart way out there. (Now there are some "90s bullets" that may not be opening very well anymore when they lose some speed.)

The other thing that very few people are apparently aware of is that the REAR core of A-Frames isn't bonded. This is why the rear end of AF's is often bulged widely: The rear core shifts forward upon impact.

Also, the rear jacket of AF's often isn't as thick as that on Nosler Partitions, and is made of pure copper, not the tougher copper alloy used by Nosler. This is why you rarely see the rear of a Partition bulged like the rear of an AF.

On rare occasions I have even seen the non-bonded rear core of an A-Frame break through the partition. In that case the bullet really flattens, and hence doesn't penetrate very far. But that's uncommon.

The biggie with either is not to use too light a bullet for the game/velocity--just as it is with any bullet, even the supposed super-bullets.

I think if a guy is an "extreme range" shooter and NEEDS a higher BC bullet (to pick a number, 90% of us don't),or for braining elephants or raking Cape buffalo stem to stern,or some other highly specialzed shooting or hunting activity,he may be able to see an advantage to some other bullet over a Partition.

But,the more I read this and other threads on other bullets,with their expansion "issues",slipped cores,etc.,and aspirin tablet expansion characteristics,and the more I think about it and look back on using the Partition over the years,I understand why I just reach for a box of Partitions and go hunting most of the time.

Oh, I've found some that the bases have sorta bulged on,and one that spun out the core when it deflectd before impact;sometimes they exit,and sometimes they don't.Certain weights and calibers I just never seem to recover.

But by and large,long range or short,at high close range velocity or longish where velocity has fallen off,with a quartering-on, broadside,or angling shot from the last rib,(and so long as I've chosen one suited to the animal)when I pull the trigger with a Partition,I know what's going to happen.There are no surprises and animals end up pretty thoroughly dead.

Which is why I'm mystified by allegations of "failure","blow ups",and "inadequate penetration".From the depths of my inexperience, I can count the other big game bullets I trust as much on two or three fingers.None of them have plastic tips

Yeah, about the only way I've been able to get a Partition to "fail" is to hit something in front of the animal. I had one 250-grain .338 Partition "fail" to open after it hit a thorn branch in front of an eland. The bullet went in sideways, which is not conducive to expansion.

I have found a few Partitions with the rear end bulged slightly, but nothing like the rear end bulges on A-Frames.

I have never recovered a 200-grain .30 caliber Partition from an animal, and I have shot a lot of game with them in various sizes up to 800 pounds or so, with cartridges ranging from the .30-06 to the .300 Weatherby.

One did get stopped somewhere inside a bull elk after I put the bullet right up the wazoo at 375 yards (the bull had already been hit once), but we didn't find it while field-dressing. I have put one right into the big shoulder joint of a 6x6 bull at 75 yards and not only did the bullet break the joint but it went on through the chest cavity and exited the far ribs--and that bullet was started at 2950 fps from a .300 Winchester Magnum. Maybe it lost the front core or it lost 30% of its weight--BUT WHO CARES?

John, would you know how the length of the rear portion compares on the 200gr to the 180gr .308? Are they the same or is the 200 longer for a little better penetration?

7mm 160gr vs 150gr vs 140gr?

Sorry one more you might know-

.338 210 vs 225

And after 6 elk neither have I.

300 win mag.

The heavier a Partition is in a given caliber, the longer the rear of the bullet behind the partition. Or at least this has been the case with every one I've ever sectioned.

In some calibers the partition is a LOT further forward on the heavier bullets. This is the case with the 260 and 300 grain .375's.

Yep makes sense. I have a box each of 140, 150, 160 7mm that I may break the dremel out on and see how they compare. I was hoping that as the weight and sectional density goes up for a given caliber the percentage of the rear section would increase as well. But that probably isn't the case until you get to the larger calibers huh?

Ruger:7mm is one caliber I always have a "which partition?" conundrum...cause they all seem to do really well.160's penetrate a lloonngg way,too; but 140's are no slouches and I don't have a single one recovered in either weight.

As JB points out,the 200 gr 30 is hard to stop; my guide used my ammo with 200 gr Partitions (300 Weatherby)and killed two elk with one shot,by accident....30 cal 200 gr partitions ain't made for herd shots

yes sir. I tend to worry about crap that don't really matter in the off season, I suppose I'm not alone.

Anyway my way of thinking is if the partition is in the same general region in all three of those 7mm how much difference in penetration could there really be? Having less muzzle velocity with the heavier bullets will make more difference I bet then the actual difference in the bullets themselves. I guess use the one that shoots best in your rifle?

In my experience the bullets with the partition way toward the front are all heavier, bigger ones, such as the 286 9.3, .300 .375 and 400 .416. But the Nosler boys tell me they are always making changes in some bullets in the line, so others may be that way too.

But as Bob said, the penetration is plenty right now with just about all of them.

I have had a couple of 140 7mm Partitions stop in deer, but both were on angling frontal shots, with the bullet ending up under the hide in the rear half of the animal. Have also had some 100 and 115 .25's do the same thing, but on broadside shots all those bullets tend to go right through.

And who is responsible for brainwashing folks with that silly notion?

Some folks from Utah? The internet experts? Both?

I get a kick out of folks that state "I was able to eat right up to the hole" when referring to wound channels. If that was the goal then why not shoot solids, FMJs or take up archery?

MtnHtr

I am a devout Partition user because of 50+ years of experience with no failures due to bullet construction. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Wayne

Wayne,

You make me fell like such a rookie,I have only 25 years of experience with Partitions with perfect results so far.

RD

I had a Partition fail on me once too. 3 bulls were coming up out of a drainage in Southwest Montana after they split from the cows on opening morning. My buddy missed with his .270 and Partitions, then I hit the lead bull through the loins with my .280 and 150 gr Partitions, dropping him on the spot. Both bullets "failed" to establish proper lead on trotting elk at 100 yards.
Come to think of it, I had a TSX fail on a bull two years ago also. It "failed" to compensate for my poor range estimation and blew apart the bull's front legs just under the brisket at 375 yards, not the 250 I told it go in the .270 WSM.
Both elk dropped but required finishers. I have some more failures on deer now that I'm thinking about it. Might even be some with Partitions and TSX/Xs.

280: If it's standard capacity case like a 280,7x57,7/08 I just automatically reach for the 140 and don't worry about it.If It's a magnum capacity,like 7RM,I lean toward a 160,but have used the 140 a lot from those,too.If I were on a combo elk/deer hunt I'd likely use a 160,but I doubt it would matter.No elk whacked properly through the chest with a 140 Partition is going to last long....

I've had good luck Bob with the 150gr NPT outta my STW.But will admitt the gain twist barrel dictated the choice of weight for me.They shine with the lighter bullets.

It is funny how everyone compares today's premium bullets to the Partition. A bullet created in the 40's is still held up as the standard by which all others are measured.

The A Frame is a phenominal bullet. It has been EXTREMELY accurate in all of my 7mm's. I have yet to take a critter with it. For sure, it was patterned after the Partition.

I don't use PT's because I have never ever gotten them to shoot accurately in any of my guns. At least, not accurate enough to suit me. Not so with the A Frames. I use them nearly exclusively.

I have always liked the way Nosler partitions killed my deer, antelope and hogs. I also used the Swift A Frames and TBBC on African game as well. However, this year I am going to be using another Nosler bullet called the ACCUBOND for longer range during elk season. My rifle of choice is a model 70 Winchester and caliber will be one of two, a .300 Ultra mag or my wildcat .338/300-Ultra mag.

Now I gave some thought about getting to close, just in case I should accidently put the sneak on a couple of those bulls. I just let the wife shoot em with her .338/06 using Nosler Partitons, I reckon they won't mind much being tagged by a lady.

Tonk,

Feed your 338 Edge a 250 gr AB, BC is .575.

JD338

The BC for the 225-gn Accubond is, if memory serves, .550. They sure work well from my plain ol' .338, out to 650 yards... they hold up exceptionally well in the wind. And they've flat poleaxed the two elk killed with 'em by friends in my elk camp... Excellent bullet IMHO.

I think this sums it up.

Well gentlemen I can assure you of one thing, and that is I won't be using those copper bullets from Barnes & Co. I guess I still have a lot to learn about hunting, since I haven't ever shot an elephant and don't intend to in this lifetime.

However, when it comes to deer, elk and moose I have shot more than my fair share and those bullets were not solid copper. I know that Nosler's Partition is still one of the best bets for hunting big game in the USA and Canada bar-none.

I had some good shooting today with my 300 Win mag and 180 grain Accubond bullets. We only shot out at 200 yards but I was getting 1.6 inch groups off the bench and that is not to shabby for a hunting rifle. It the rain holds off we will shoot some more tomorrow.

Tonk

Nice shooting. What is your load?
I have used 75.0 grs RL 22 and 180 gr PT, BT and AB and shot well under MOA in 3 different 300 Win Mag rifles. Might be worth a try.

JD338

JD-338...I just spent 20 minutes typing out those loads of mine and lost them all as the PC went down faster than a bullet.

Well, I used a lot of IMR-4831 powder using Nosler Partiton bullets 35 plus years ago up to today. It simply produced top velocities and accuracy was always very good.

I also use a lot of RL-19, RL-22 and RL-25. I use IMR-4230 in some of my big bores and varmint rifles also.

250 gr. A-Frame vs Partition in 35 cal.

The following was my load development for a 358 STA.

I purchased mine from Winchesters Custom shop around July of 2000. They had just made a small special run of them in stainless with stainless Badger barrels. I wanted it in the hopes of a Brown bear hunt but it has only dropped one bull Elk so far, but that was impressive.

Before I began load testing on mine I sent it off to get an Answer muzzel brake and thier recoil pad on the stock Winchester wood.

Once back from Answer it went to McMillan for one of their custom Kevlar stocks bedded by them. I have not put the Winchester wood stock back on.

I did the break-in while I was fire forming my brass. I used Win. 375 H&H cases and a set of Redding Custom dies $$$.

My fire forming consisted of necking down the 375 H&H in the 358STA Redding dies and then a 250gr bullet and 80grs of H4350. I turned my head to the side the first time I shot it to fire form the case. I had never done anything like that before. Must say, it works.

Then the cases were put through the FL dies and trimmed and de-burred and load testing started. I used 4 different powders IMR 4831, H4831, R22 and H4350.

I used either Nosler 250gr Partition or 250gr Swift A-Frames in load developement.

Speeds for the two 4831 powders were as high as 2774fps. R22 took speeds to the mid 2800 and H4350 broke the 3000 barrier.

Best accuracy was R22 with a Nosler partition, Fed 215 GM primer @ just over 1/2" (.502) three shot group. Avg fps. 2900.1. ES 59.5 and SD 30.5

Load I setteled on for Brown bear (Elk) was H4350, Fed. 215 primer, 250gr Swift A-Frame. 3 shot group was .990 at 3060fps ES 16.4 SD 8.3 The energy developed was 5300ft/lb.

I shot my Elk with the A-Frame load listed above. The shot was about 125 yds. by the time I pulled the trigger. I was on a ridge about 75ft higher then the bull. As the bull and about a dozen cows came running below (they were movin).

I kept the gun moving until the cross hairs were on his nose and I shot. He did a complete 360 in the air and landed in a pile of dust. Never moved. The bullet entered mid neck and exited the off side. Bullet not recovered.

Good luck on your hunt.

280,
Sorry for the late reply, Yes, the Woodleighs will work fine on deer size game, use the 140s as Woodleighs are velocity specific.

Folks,
As to the Noslers coming apart at 400 and 500 yards, I don't believe that at all..I think what they may have found was the rear section of a Nosler that performed as intended, but even that is unlikely at that range..

After haveing shot perhaps 500 animals with Noslers it is hard to convience me that they fail, short of perhaps a manufacturing flaw such as a crack in the jacket that got by the check out line..to top that off I use mostly seconds.

I also have it from Ross Seyfried that Noslers don't fail, and Ross has used many of them on game, as has JB. I have never heard from any of the experts, gun writers, PHs and experienced guides that Nosler were not the best of bullets.

If one has a problem with the front end blowing off, then the cure for that is to simply go to the next heavier weight bullet.

If your shooting the big bores then Nosler has fixed that one for you in that they moved the partition forward and it does blows the little bit of lead out and leaves you with a expanded bullet that looks amazingly like an expanded monolithic bullet as that what it becomes after initial expansion!

I have an aweful lot of Noslers that came out of game and they all look pretty good to me..

As an additional edit, I will also add that you can use the heaviest of Noslers even on deer, antelope and duiker and they will expand. I have used the 200 gr. Nosler in my 30-06 on smaller plainsgame and whitetail deer with perfect success and used the same bullet on Eland with the same success. They expand everytime and the always penetrate.

Noslers are the bullet by which all others are judged, that should be your first clue..It seems if someone finds a good bullet that works for them they claim its as good as a Nosler, go figure!

Both great bullets. I'd shoot the one your rifle likes best. jorge

Well, you have chosen a great caliber...the .358 Norma Magnum!
I took one to Africa instead of a .375, as I think its a better
choice, shot everything including a 2,000 pound+ Bull Eland.
However, I think that you are missing a good choice. The 250 gr.
Norma "Oryx" Bullet. Its not a partition type, but a real good
bonded bullet that has controlled expansion, little weight loss.
And...for its quality...not high priced. The Nosler Partition
and Swift A-Frames are both good, for sure...but I like the Norma
Oryx bonded bullets for the .358 Norma Magnum.
Best Regards, Tom

ingwe nailed it, my findings perzackly

Gunner

The Aframes do shoot very well.....

I wisht I'd hadda used them on animals .....but I ain't outta Bitterroots yet.....

+1 Bob...those of us that still have an ample supply of Bitterroots usually use them on our hunts ....this October in Wyoming and November in Oregon you'll find me and the ol' pre-64 30-06 loaded with 200 BBC chasing Elk....Now if I could only find some 130 BBCs for my 270...know of any??

Bob and ou76 why do think the BBC is a better bullet than say a Partition or A-frame?

Dink

Dink... I have shot BBC for something like 40 years now..Nosler Partitions are a great bullet and I use them when I can't get any BBC...especially in my 270 and 30-06 165s...BBC offer better weight retention..greater frontal... excellent pentration...and because of the reduced bearing surface usually show less pressure than more conventional bullets..and I have approximately 120 dead NA critters using the Bitterroots..so if it ain't broke why fix it .....when I run out and can no longer get any BBCs I will most likely give the SAF a real hard look....as I believe from my limited experience with the SAF it is an excellent bullet..as is the Partition...

Thanks ou76.

I have killed one deer with 180 grain BBC bullet out of a 30/06...worked. grin.

I know you and Bob both speak highly of BBC and kill alot of stuff. I was wondering why you thought they were better bullets than other premium bullets that are easier to buy.

Thanks again.

Dink

Bison,

Welcome to the Campfire!

I'd like to back up what you said about Norma Oryxes. I've used them in 7mm, .30 and 9.3mm for several years now, and they are very accurate and very deadly, performing much like the Bitterroot Bonded Core, with great weight retention and wide expansion. The price is right, too.

I have already informed BobNH of this, but he evidently has a good supply of BBC's.....

Dink...another excellent bullet I have used especially in the 264 and 180 in 30-06 is Jack Carter's Trophy Bonded Bear Claws...the ones that were made by Carter in Houston...but those bullets became hard to find after Jack sold to Federal...almost as hard as BBCs...anyway, bullet mfg has come a long way since the days of John Nosler, Bill Steigers and Jack Carter...Lee Reed with his SAF...Randy Brooks with his Barnes X bullets...and etc...I have to think any of today's premium bullets will serve you well in the game fields..but for me...I'll just stick to the old outdated BBCs...

DINK: I'm not sure I think the BBC is "better",but it was certainly first,and the bullet that the TBBC and SAF sort of chased....to fill the void and great demand created by the BBC's limited production. They are not tough to buy,.... they are impossible to buy,..... because they are no longer made.

Back around the mid 60's when Bill Steigers started making them we did not have much in the way of premies except for the Nolser Partition, and some heavy jacket Barnes...not much else.The BBC "thing" really started to gain moemntum when folks like John Wooters and Bob Hagel, among others, started using them here and in Africa on everything.

Because of the very heavy jackets of pure copper ,pure lead cores,and tough bonding construction, they can withstand very high impact velocity into about anything,expand to very large frontal areas,and then if velocity is high enough, the expanded wings will NOT shear off,but will fold back along the shank...thus reducing frontal area somewhat and enhancing penetration.

That said they frequently expand to very large frontal areas and retained weight is almost always in excess of 95%.I have a 250 gr 375 BBC here that is exoanded to over .70 caliber and still weighs 249 gr after busting both shoulders of an Alaskan BB(the other two exited leaving large holes,and a pie plate sized gout of bear blood on a peeled log ten feet behind the bear);another 160 gr 7mm that I recovered under the chin off a bull elk after it traveled 3/4's the length of the neck,smashing vertabrae along the way.It has an expanded diameter of over 60 cal and still weighs 159 gr.

They never fragment at all.Keep in mind they do this without a Partition, like the SAF or Nosler.They are really a very tough CC bullet, and try as they might,for a long while no one was able to duplicate Steigers recipe to get the same performance.Jack Carter tried with the original TBBC, but had to go to a solid rear section and bonded front core to get similar performance.The early TBBC would over expand under the stress of high impact velocity and the BBC generally will not.

From all this, we can see that they are a true "magnum" bullet,capable of withstanding as much velocity as one can give them.The more the merrier as far as the bullets are concerned.We have used the 165 30 cals driven to 3300 pulp elk lungs and shoulders and give that DRT effect everyone looks for..Innards are mush..the reason I respectfully disagree sometimes with folks who feel a bullet must disintegrate to give this effect....this has not been my experience with the BBC when velocity is still high,say to 300 yards.After that they expand less dramatically,frequently exiting,but still kill quickly and well.

They seem to hit very "hard",due to early,expansion and large frontal area.....I have had large mule and whitatil bucks collapse instantly to shoulder and lung hits,had large black bear do the same with pure lung hits(no bone struck save ribs), and ditto with elk.

I have never used an X on an animal,so must depend on others for input;but I have watched the bullets and gotten reports from reliable friends....on avaerage they penetrate smewhat deeper, give smaller frontal area than a BBC,and from what I have seen,under high impact velocity,will shed the petals.

An SAF behaves more like a BBC,the rear core bulging under stress and swelling alng the shank which supports the expanded frontal area,creating a large frontal area.They are very tough too from what I know.

In a recent conversation with Bill Steigers I asked him which bullet made today would he reach for if he wanted BBC-like performance and his instant response was the SAF....he told me that before and because I am lowest on 130 270 BBC's I have a supply of 500 130 gr SAF's on hand.

Because they are no longer made they are not worth anyone pursuing today; they are in the end a major chapter in the technology and development of premium hunting bullets and the first of the breed to obtain wide recognition;they flushed out some of the highly touted designs of today.

Older guys like me and OU76,RinB in here,and others bought large stashes and sometimes they trade among BBC disciples like black market cocaine.I bought every stash I could and today have over 2000 of them in various calibers...i have even(more than once!) assembled an entire rifle around 250-or-so BBC's of a given caliber and weight..

Followers are avid, a bit crazy maybe....but we would not be that way if they did not work so well....and you have to remember when all this happened we could not foresee the explosion of premium bullets that subsequently became available in later years and todaywe have an embarassment of riches in great bullets....we were scared we'd run out!

Thanks Bob.

I knew there was a reason you and ou76 hoarded those bullets.

I have shot most premium bullets but have never shot a SAF bullet but now I think I might try them.

Dink

[quote=BobinNH]DINK:
Older guys like me and OU76,RinB in here,and others bought large stashes and sometimes they trade among BBC disciples like black market cocaine.Followers are avid, a bit crazy maybe....but we would not be that way if they did not work so well....

Bob ...Bill Steigers is ... and yep we are a bit crazy..

120g A-Frames shoot extremely well ijn my .257 Roberts, much better than the 120g Partitions. Haven't tried them in anything else.

As far as BC deficiencies, I wouldn't be too concerned unless you plan to shoot quite a ways out.

The MRX and TTSC also shoot well in every rifle I've tried them in and would expect one in .358" to be a real hammer.

I have been using the BBC's since about 1981 when I got my first shipment of 140 7mm's. Nothing performs like them. I have lifetime supply in 277 and 284 and 375.

For about 8 trips to Africa I tried every available 277/130. I was interesting in comparing the new bullets to the BBC's. There are some great bullets but only one came real close to the 277 130 BBC's. Those were the first generation Swift Scirroco's 130/277. They were very close to BBC performance but then Swift changed them. I can't get the new improved versions to shoot as well or to have the same terminal effect.

About 1981-83 I sold or traded some to OU76 and to BobinNH. We are still at it. Funny. The BBC's were difficult to obtain then.

Wanna unload any......?

[quote=RinB]I have been using the BBC's since about 1981 when I got my first shipment of 140 7mm's. Nothing performs like them. I have lifetime supply in 277 and 284 and 375.

I'll take some 277...130s... ...never used the 284 but will take some of them too....as Bob has given me the Mashburn fever! Got some 300s I'll swap for 275s...ain't a better big bear bullet in NA

In 7mm, I have only 140's and 132's. Bill made a run of 284 130's but they turned out 132. Drive them to about 3500 and they will turn elk into jelly. With a 9 twist they should expand to about .650 and retain 98%. At that velocity they will penetrate about like a 175 partition which is pretty deep.

Nothing like them today, pity. Very few have seen what they are capable of.

140's at 3300 are nasty......

Yep...no doubt.. in 50 years of hunting NA big game the BBCs were the best I have ever used even though I have had excellent results with the Nosler Partitions... especially with the 130 in my 270...and 165 in my 30-06...my favorite BBCs are the 130 in 270, 200 in 30-06 and the 275 in 375...all with the same devastating results....killing everything that walks in NA more than twice