Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting A-Frame vs. Partition

Well, you have chosen a great caliber...the .358 Norma Magnum!
I took one to Africa instead of a .375, as I think its a better
choice, shot everything including a 2,000 pound+ Bull Eland.
However, I think that you are missing a good choice. The 250 gr.
Norma "Oryx" Bullet. Its not a partition type, but a real good
bonded bullet that has controlled expansion, little weight loss.
And...for its quality...not high priced. The Nosler Partition
and Swift A-Frames are both good, for sure...but I like the Norma
Oryx bonded bullets for the .358 Norma Magnum.
Best Regards, Tom

ingwe nailed it, my findings perzackly

Gunner

The Aframes do shoot very well.....

I wisht I'd hadda used them on animals .....but I ain't outta Bitterroots yet.....

+1 Bob...those of us that still have an ample supply of Bitterroots usually use them on our hunts ....this October in Wyoming and November in Oregon you'll find me and the ol' pre-64 30-06 loaded with 200 BBC chasing Elk....Now if I could only find some 130 BBCs for my 270...know of any??

Bob and ou76 why do think the BBC is a better bullet than say a Partition or A-frame?

Dink

Dink... I have shot BBC for something like 40 years now..Nosler Partitions are a great bullet and I use them when I can't get any BBC...especially in my 270 and 30-06 165s...BBC offer better weight retention..greater frontal... excellent pentration...and because of the reduced bearing surface usually show less pressure than more conventional bullets..and I have approximately 120 dead NA critters using the Bitterroots..so if it ain't broke why fix it .....when I run out and can no longer get any BBCs I will most likely give the SAF a real hard look....as I believe from my limited experience with the SAF it is an excellent bullet..as is the Partition...

Thanks ou76.

I have killed one deer with 180 grain BBC bullet out of a 30/06...worked. grin.

I know you and Bob both speak highly of BBC and kill alot of stuff. I was wondering why you thought they were better bullets than other premium bullets that are easier to buy.

Thanks again.

Dink

Bison,

Welcome to the Campfire!

I'd like to back up what you said about Norma Oryxes. I've used them in 7mm, .30 and 9.3mm for several years now, and they are very accurate and very deadly, performing much like the Bitterroot Bonded Core, with great weight retention and wide expansion. The price is right, too.

I have already informed BobNH of this, but he evidently has a good supply of BBC's.....

Dink...another excellent bullet I have used especially in the 264 and 180 in 30-06 is Jack Carter's Trophy Bonded Bear Claws...the ones that were made by Carter in Houston...but those bullets became hard to find after Jack sold to Federal...almost as hard as BBCs...anyway, bullet mfg has come a long way since the days of John Nosler, Bill Steigers and Jack Carter...Lee Reed with his SAF...Randy Brooks with his Barnes X bullets...and etc...I have to think any of today's premium bullets will serve you well in the game fields..but for me...I'll just stick to the old outdated BBCs...

DINK: I'm not sure I think the BBC is "better",but it was certainly first,and the bullet that the TBBC and SAF sort of chased....to fill the void and great demand created by the BBC's limited production. They are not tough to buy,.... they are impossible to buy,..... because they are no longer made.

Back around the mid 60's when Bill Steigers started making them we did not have much in the way of premies except for the Nolser Partition, and some heavy jacket Barnes...not much else.The BBC "thing" really started to gain moemntum when folks like John Wooters and Bob Hagel, among others, started using them here and in Africa on everything.

Because of the very heavy jackets of pure copper ,pure lead cores,and tough bonding construction, they can withstand very high impact velocity into about anything,expand to very large frontal areas,and then if velocity is high enough, the expanded wings will NOT shear off,but will fold back along the shank...thus reducing frontal area somewhat and enhancing penetration.

That said they frequently expand to very large frontal areas and retained weight is almost always in excess of 95%.I have a 250 gr 375 BBC here that is exoanded to over .70 caliber and still weighs 249 gr after busting both shoulders of an Alaskan BB(the other two exited leaving large holes,and a pie plate sized gout of bear blood on a peeled log ten feet behind the bear);another 160 gr 7mm that I recovered under the chin off a bull elk after it traveled 3/4's the length of the neck,smashing vertabrae along the way.It has an expanded diameter of over 60 cal and still weighs 159 gr.

They never fragment at all.Keep in mind they do this without a Partition, like the SAF or Nosler.They are really a very tough CC bullet, and try as they might,for a long while no one was able to duplicate Steigers recipe to get the same performance.Jack Carter tried with the original TBBC, but had to go to a solid rear section and bonded front core to get similar performance.The early TBBC would over expand under the stress of high impact velocity and the BBC generally will not.

From all this, we can see that they are a true "magnum" bullet,capable of withstanding as much velocity as one can give them.The more the merrier as far as the bullets are concerned.We have used the 165 30 cals driven to 3300 pulp elk lungs and shoulders and give that DRT effect everyone looks for..Innards are mush..the reason I respectfully disagree sometimes with folks who feel a bullet must disintegrate to give this effect....this has not been my experience with the BBC when velocity is still high,say to 300 yards.After that they expand less dramatically,frequently exiting,but still kill quickly and well.

They seem to hit very "hard",due to early,expansion and large frontal area.....I have had large mule and whitatil bucks collapse instantly to shoulder and lung hits,had large black bear do the same with pure lung hits(no bone struck save ribs), and ditto with elk.

I have never used an X on an animal,so must depend on others for input;but I have watched the bullets and gotten reports from reliable friends....on avaerage they penetrate smewhat deeper, give smaller frontal area than a BBC,and from what I have seen,under high impact velocity,will shed the petals.

An SAF behaves more like a BBC,the rear core bulging under stress and swelling alng the shank which supports the expanded frontal area,creating a large frontal area.They are very tough too from what I know.

In a recent conversation with Bill Steigers I asked him which bullet made today would he reach for if he wanted BBC-like performance and his instant response was the SAF....he told me that before and because I am lowest on 130 270 BBC's I have a supply of 500 130 gr SAF's on hand.

Because they are no longer made they are not worth anyone pursuing today; they are in the end a major chapter in the technology and development of premium hunting bullets and the first of the breed to obtain wide recognition;they flushed out some of the highly touted designs of today.

Older guys like me and OU76,RinB in here,and others bought large stashes and sometimes they trade among BBC disciples like black market cocaine.I bought every stash I could and today have over 2000 of them in various calibers...i have even(more than once!) assembled an entire rifle around 250-or-so BBC's of a given caliber and weight..

Followers are avid, a bit crazy maybe....but we would not be that way if they did not work so well....and you have to remember when all this happened we could not foresee the explosion of premium bullets that subsequently became available in later years and todaywe have an embarassment of riches in great bullets....we were scared we'd run out!

Thanks Bob.

I knew there was a reason you and ou76 hoarded those bullets.

I have shot most premium bullets but have never shot a SAF bullet but now I think I might try them.

Dink

[quote=BobinNH]DINK:
Older guys like me and OU76,RinB in here,and others bought large stashes and sometimes they trade among BBC disciples like black market cocaine.Followers are avid, a bit crazy maybe....but we would not be that way if they did not work so well....

Bob ...Bill Steigers is ... and yep we are a bit crazy..

120g A-Frames shoot extremely well ijn my .257 Roberts, much better than the 120g Partitions. Haven't tried them in anything else.

As far as BC deficiencies, I wouldn't be too concerned unless you plan to shoot quite a ways out.

The MRX and TTSC also shoot well in every rifle I've tried them in and would expect one in .358" to be a real hammer.

I have been using the BBC's since about 1981 when I got my first shipment of 140 7mm's. Nothing performs like them. I have lifetime supply in 277 and 284 and 375.

For about 8 trips to Africa I tried every available 277/130. I was interesting in comparing the new bullets to the BBC's. There are some great bullets but only one came real close to the 277 130 BBC's. Those were the first generation Swift Scirroco's 130/277. They were very close to BBC performance but then Swift changed them. I can't get the new improved versions to shoot as well or to have the same terminal effect.

About 1981-83 I sold or traded some to OU76 and to BobinNH. We are still at it. Funny. The BBC's were difficult to obtain then.

Wanna unload any......?

[quote=RinB]I have been using the BBC's since about 1981 when I got my first shipment of 140 7mm's. Nothing performs like them. I have lifetime supply in 277 and 284 and 375.

I'll take some 277...130s... ...never used the 284 but will take some of them too....as Bob has given me the Mashburn fever! Got some 300s I'll swap for 275s...ain't a better big bear bullet in NA

In 7mm, I have only 140's and 132's. Bill made a run of 284 130's but they turned out 132. Drive them to about 3500 and they will turn elk into jelly. With a 9 twist they should expand to about .650 and retain 98%. At that velocity they will penetrate about like a 175 partition which is pretty deep.

Nothing like them today, pity. Very few have seen what they are capable of.

140's at 3300 are nasty......

Yep...no doubt.. in 50 years of hunting NA big game the BBCs were the best I have ever used even though I have had excellent results with the Nosler Partitions... especially with the 130 in my 270...and 165 in my 30-06...my favorite BBCs are the 130 in 270, 200 in 30-06 and the 275 in 375...all with the same devastating results....killing everything that walks in NA more than twice