I'm sure this has probably come up before, but help me with the pluses and minuses. It's too late to think about them for this year, but after a long muzzleloader weekend and a lot of miles covered a buddy and were talking about them on the way home.
Outside of individual animal personality quirks, what's wrong with either, what's right with either?
And would you consider any other kind of packstock? I raised pack goats when I was younger, but I worry too much about having my animals eaten to mess with them anymore. Although they were nice, would follow you anywhere and were easy to handle. And a big whether(220-250) could carry about 70 pounds.

There is a saying that a horse will kill you buy accident and a mule will kill you on purpose.Pretty much rings true,and I'm a devout muleman.

Generally mules are healthier than horses, live longer, are smarter, will eat less, have better feet, more sure footed, will work harder than a horse,and can stand the heat better. If treated right they are more personalble than a horse and make a better companion. You can take them places that most horses will not go. They have a higher sense of self preservation which mnay think is stubborness.

However,a lot of people do not or cannot get along with mules because they don't understand them. I suppose the same thing could be said about horses, but you can bully a horse into doing soemnthing that may or may not be in yours or the horse's best interest. Not so with amule. You can't bully, force or coerce one into doing soemthing it mght think is harmful. Fight it and you will lose every time.

If a person can find an older mule that has done just about evrything, that mule will teach him/ her a lot and generally won't give too much trouble if treated right. Start with a younger one that need some desensitzing and most people get in a bind.

A person needs to be an experienced horseman before starting down the road witha mule. However, training and using mules is completely differnt than a horse. Think of using a horse as kindergarten and a mule as post graduate work after college 4yrs.

A good mule is 10 times better than a good horse,but a bad mule is 100 times worse than a bad horse. There are a lot more bad mules out there for sale than good ones.Good ones usually don't come up for sale very often.

That being said, there are good horses that wil do particular jobs better than a good mule and there are good mules that will do a particular job better than a good horse. In addition,each breed of either a horse or mule will be suited more to some particular job than another.
Example:I would not use a thorobred horse as a pack horse, nor would I use a draft horse as a saddle horse,but they do work on occasions

you dont say how much expieriance you have with large animals??
from the sound of it just to me it is too late to change. go with what you know and know how to handle [even with your misgivings]. the learning curve for large animals can be fraught with danger. i have known of a lot of serious injuries to people and stock in the backcountry and seen several dead horses laying along the trail for unknown reasons. care of them never ends [ and costs $$$] i know we spend more on vet bills than the average person but we spend thousands per yr. just an example. in camp they can be a pain to take care of. feed? or tie em to a tree and let them fatten up all year till next season. my journey to be a horseman has been going for 60 yrs and i decided many many years ago that i would take better care of my stock than just tie em up and go hunt. i dont need to hunt so bad as to ignore the critter that carried me in. i like to hunt just not at the animals expense or injury.
perhaps the devil you know is better than the devil you dont know.

If you AI the mule he can carry 162 grain boolits WAAAAY faster than a horse can.

mules are better for comic relief, they make much cooler noises.

My father had mules our KS farm. His had favorite team that he would work in an away fields, unhitch from the tools in the field and ride the mules with the harness home. One of those mules would would stop suddenly every few days and off the front he would go to the ground. It seemed to know when the time was right. I had an Elk hunting friend that said that a horse would ride right off of a mountain in low light. He swore that you couldn't push a mule off of a mountain. He used to pay for Elk trips by hauling mules from KS/MO to CO, using them to hunt, and then selling them to outfitters before coming home. Good luck.

Try goats fo packing

A good horse or mule is great, but they just don't work for everyone. They take a lot of off-season care and money to start with. If you only want pack animals for hunting, they're an expensive way to go. If you ride year round, that's another story.

So, for occasional meat packing - you might be better off with goats or llamas. They won't carry the loads a horse will, of course, and you can't ride them, but they do have advantages. Most experienced pack goats are dairy breeds. That doesn't make them the best, just the cheapest. Male dairy goats are throw-a-way so they're recruited for packers. A meat breed wether, like a boer or Spanish will be bigger with heavier muscles and will carry more weight. They're hard to come by, though, because most of them are eaten before they grow up.
Llamas are very easy to care for and easy to train. Like goats, they can be hauled in the back of a pickup or even a van so a stock trailer isn't needed. Good used pack saddles are hard to come by so be prepared to spend a couple hundred each if you can't find used or make your own. Same for goat saddles.

Goats will be eaten by about anything with teeth. Llamas will run coyotes off and in a few cases, guard llamas have also run off bears (but don't count on it). They're no match for a cougar or wolf, though, but horses have also been on the menu for those critters.
A big meat breed goat will haul as much weight as a big llama, around 80-90 lb max for long trips. Both will go places that only a fool will take a horse. The problem is that you have to hike there yourself. If you don't want to lead a llama into a hell hole, don't shoot an elk in there.

The weak point on llamas is the legs. You have to learn what's good or not. Many have weak pasterns that will give them fits as they get older. Good legs will give you a packer that will last 10-15 years. A good back line and shoulders are also required for maximum loads.

Not too many years ago, a young llama would set you back a thousand or more. These days, you can get a male weanling for around $100. He needs to be 4 years old, though, before you can really load him up. That's no different than goats, horses, or mules, though.

Llamas are very easy to work with, but there are some rules. You won't need to be shown twice that when you work on one's feet, you snub up his lead so he can't turn his head toward you. Also, when one is PO'd, they can make some of dangedest noises imaginable.

The first time I went elk hunting I went on a packing service drop camp and the outfitter put me on a mule to ride into the Flattops.The thing I most remember is that no matter how hard he was breathing or how nasty the trail was, if he saw a thistle off to the side he would stop and eat it!

For a pack string mules are the better animal (horse vs mules) no question. I'd rather lead 9 mules than 3 horses. Mostly they just fall in line and do their job. And for riding in the mtns hunting there isn't much wrong with them either. Cowboying is another story. In my mind horses are for riding and mules are for packing. But unless I'm working cows I'd rather ride a mule than pack a horse.

So has anyone had pack stock shot, or harmed by predators before?
Rock Chuck, you seem to know a thing or two about goat packing... any other concerns with goats? I mostly used Alpines and Oberhaslis when I was younger, but I had a big line of Alpines, and most of the does would weigh over 200 (not fat), with the wethers going 220-240 or so. I don't really like the idea of the meat breeds, like Boers, because of their coats and I've never had a cooperative, quiet Nubian.
I left the horns on the ones I raised for packing, but I especially worried about the Oberhaslis being mistaken for deer(same concerns with a Toggenburg). I was told the horns would help them cool off because of all the blood flow (same idea with the Nubians and Boers with big floppy ears).
I actually like the idea of goats (although, I'd have a hard time selling my hunting partners on the idea, but f them, if they're mine and they don't have anything, they'll learn to like them). What else would you be concerned about with small pack stock like goats? How do they handle severe cold? Did you ever have to blanket them? I was in California with mine, so that was never a concern.

I suppose if I was packing goats and got stranded by weather, I wouldn't feel so bad about eating my stock.

First think of 18" of snow and how a goa twould get through it.
Had a friend on this forum who used goats until a mtn lion made a buffet out of two of them.

ok
i dont have and never will have goats but it sounds like you would be comfortable with them if no one shot at them and nothing wanted to eat em. so ---put a bell on em and paint em orange, well at least and orange coat. i would worry more about a shooting than an eating. i worry some about a shooting with horses too and sometimes have a bell on my pony when i ride.

I haven't used goats myself, but I'm fairly familiar with them. The Jury is out on dehorning. I guess it's a personal preference thing. There are good arguments both ways. Unless they damage each other, I'd leave them on. However, never let them learn play with you. They'll bust you good when you least expect it.
I doubt that goats can take severe cold like llamas. Farmers in cold climates have to have good shelter for them in the winter because of it. I haven't heard of using blankets in the mountains, but it should work for late season hunting. It's one more thing to haul along, though.
They're probably the easiest to train of any of the pack animals available. If they're imprinted when young, you just have to get them used to a load. They'll pretty much stay with you after that. I've heard of them sort of taking over a camp if you let them. They'll move right in, even inside your tent. That's probably an extreme brought on by them being pets, not tools. I'm guessing your partners would object to sharing a tent with a goat.
I don't know of anyone personally who's lost goats to predators, but we have our share of coyotes around here. I'd hate to have to take along a guard dog or llama just to run them off. If they're a problem and if you're camping with your truck, I'd load them up at night to protect them.
Alpines are very popular with good size to them. Boers can get up to 300 sometimes and are real load haulers. I don't know what the coat issue is. I haven't heard of it.

I'll bet your partners will kid you to no end until they hike 3 miles out carrying only a rifle while the goats pack the meat. That makes the Heidi jokes disappear fast.

The last time I was in Montana, I asked the outfitter why he used mules instead of horses. He said the horses were cheaper, but the mules were more sure-footed and less skittish. As we were riding along a very narrow trail on the side of a mountain, I was glad he made the choice he made.

Fast Ed

I have used both for years and my family had a lot of saddle mules we used in the rough rocky rimrock country of the Big Bend of Texas, much like Arizona but more slick rock..The mule got around better in the slick rock because they were never shod and were tough footed out of Mexico..They were from Spanish Jacks and sorry mares so they had pretty poor dispositions but we sold them like hotcakes to the Colorado packers who loved those tough little devils..naturally we kids got the job of breaking and training all of them..

I like a real good mule, but a real good mule is the exception rather than the rule IMO..Also a Mule is harder to break and train, and when he is finished he is great to ride and hunt of of but you can't do much else on him as compared to a good horse..I have only seen a few mules that I could catch a fast steer off of or head a bunch of horses and only then got it barely done..For the rough country the mule is great as to getting around but so is a good horse..

Bottom line is I much prefer the horse and a good horse can do anything you ask of him, and he is more reliable and not prone to damage your hide as a lot of mules will do..:)

I am not anti mule, but I prefer a good horse every time.


As to goats, well, they are good to eat. thats about IMO...

My admittedly limited exposure to mules has led me to believe that they are not for me. They seem to be a lot like liver or lutefisk - they aren't for everyone. Give me a good horse and I'll go most anywhere a guy with mules will go with no worries. I'd worry more about finding one of either type that had the experience and personality for the two of us to work well together in whatever it was that I was going to use it for. Plenty of good ones of either type out there but you will have to look for a while to find one that fits you and your needs well or you'll regret your decision every day you have to feed it.

Folks need to go to some of these all mule rodeos to see mules being cowey. They can rope,head or heel, pen, cut with the best of them.

Heck,most competition in horse related arena events or such won't even allow mules to compete with horses as they usually walk away with all the trophies. Put them in a long distance endurance race and they win most of them.

There use to be a fellow down in the 4 corners area, Doyle Hill, who ran bunch of Walker mares and quarter horse mares, which he bred for mules. He had about 75 foals per year. The cowboys of AZ and NV sure liked them long legged walker mules. Much more so than the quarter horse mules. Doyle ran about 40 head of each and to buy one of those walker mules, you had to pay 1/2 of the price when the mare was bred and the other half when it was weaned. I bought several of them and sometimes I had to wait two years in line to get one.

Out in CA ,they use a lot of mules for cow work and seem to get along fine. Not saying mules will ever take over doing cow work, but there are some good ones out there doing it. A lot of folks let thier predjudice out weigh common sense about these things.

30-40 years ago people did breed sorry mares for mules and it has taken a lot of time and effort to convince folks that if you breed good mares to good jacks, you come out of it with darn good saddle mules with good dispositiosn and good confirmation.

My first mules were pretty much as Atkinson described, and you could buy them all day long for $150-$200. Now days to buy a good weanling, you best dig deep into your pockets.

Back in the 80's we worked hard to get mules back into competition at the Denver Stock Show. The first year out of a class of 27, my wife took 1st in side saddle competition and went on to win high point mule in the Americam Donkey and Mule Society for side saddel competition that year and then the next year took fist place,International Side Saddle mule.She has a room full of ribbons, trophies, and loving cups for Emglish and Western Pleaure, Trail, Driving, Halter and a Gymkhana events and such, all done with the same mule. Pretty hard to convince her that a mule can't do it all.

We never competed in cow classes as I don't consider the cow a companion animal and I don't play with them.

Some days catch the Bishop Mule days over Memorial Day week end in CA or Jake Clark's sale up in Powell WY if you want to see some good mules.

I realize there ain't no way anyone is going to convince a old cowboy to switch to a mule, but I have been riding and using these critters for 40 yrs now.I don't havee a horse on the place. I like to look at good horses and appreciate them as much as anybody, but my only use for them is to make mules.
In all my years I have never met one person who switched to riding a mule that has swicthed back to riding horses.Those short eared affairs are just too darn dumb acting for my liking.

I have hunted on horses and mules, off and on, for the last 40 years or so. At this point in my life, if mountains are involved, it's mules only for me. I have had to good fortune to have some really good rock-footed horses and have ridden them places that it would have been difficult to walk, but in hind sight, I should never have asked the horses to go there.

Among my friends are a bunch of old cowmen, most older than me, who have ridden horses in the rough country of southern Colorado, New Mexico and west Texas all their lives. They all have at least two or three gripping stories of horse wrecks and accidents in the mountains which could have ended up with them and their horses dead. We have friends who are not alive to tell these tales, because their wrecks and accidents didn't end the same way.

My friend Warner Glenn has hunted and guided hunters for lions and deer all of his life (he is still active in his 70s). He will not hunt off of a horse nor will he let his clients ride a horse. He works his cattle off his mules and ropes off of them. I learned how to really use mules working and hunting with him, and I will not go back to hunting from horses.

JMHO

all i can offer is every time i hear a packstring coming in the mountains i see its being lead by a horse that is kicking a rock know and again, when i am suprised there is a packstring in my camp its a guy riding a mule towing a couple mules, i have had many of each in all kind of conditions, horses raised in the rough stuff from day one, as well as mules raised in a backyard, i cant hear the feet on my mules hitting rocks, logs , whatnot, they use there nosess like a bird dog and ears like a mulie buck, i ask them to do things , not tel them to do it, kind of like a wife.....

As a sideline: Cecil Andrus, Sec. Interior under Carter, was formerly the governor of Idaho. He was an avid elk hunter and he and his friends packed into the wilderness areas to hunt every year. One time when he was gov., one of them shot an elk and they brought up the mules to load it. One of them got a little raunchy, reared up, and pawed. His hoof hit Andrus in the head and cold conked him. So they had to deal with a dead elk, a raunchy mule, and an unconscious governor. Luckily, he woke up before too long and was able to ride out under his own power. I bet he had a headache, though!!

Must have been a Democrat governor.

He was a Dem, but in those days a Dem was more conservative than a Republican today. He was actually a pretty good governor, pro gun, pro hunting, etc. Too bad he had to associate with the likes of Carter.

Horses and mules each have their place, but I'm not going to tie a mule to the hitching post outside my favorite watering hole. A guy's got to have some standards.

So you tie up ol' Billy to the hitching post and belly up to the bar. "Bar keep. Give me a shot and a double for my goat out th'ar"

He wouldn't be there long, he would untie himself and leave.

I won't argue some of the benifits of a good mule, but I would put my good horses up against any mule in a rodeo arena and I'll win there. A good horse is faster and quicker than any mule, easier to work daily on and can just get more done....

I have owned some good mules and our mule program over the years got better and better and we used better mares and mostly hot bloods as the packers needed a mule that could step over blow down timber..

I also had some racing mules that I bought from Elmer Hepler of New Mexico horse racing fame and they could fly but couldn't outrun a good horse..My best one was out of a Jack Straw mare and that big dunn mule could really run and right up there with a regular horse, but he was never a gentle mule..I called him cicatres (scar) because he ran into a barn wall and out the other side, tore his head up and left a bad scar..We got him broke and I rode him for a number of years.

For hunting a good mule is a jewel but I would never feel real good putting an inexperienced person on most mules, granted their are exceptions..

Like I said I am not anti mule and I sure don't mind riding a good mule, but I'm not as anal about them as most "mule men" are, those guys get plumb carried with the atributes of a mule, almost as bad as a Pre 64 Win. man!

As to myself, I have always liked a mule that wasn't "quite broke" because that kind of a mule still has some fire and go in him, most really broke nice mules get a tad on the lazy side imo and work you to death..:) I know that will stir the sinces of some of the mule lovers out there, but its generally a fact..

The other thing I like in a mule is I like for the Jack to have been half Mexican burro and half Mamouth, the Mexican burro will give him fire and toughness and yes even a bit of treachery, but he will be a better mule IMO...Mamoth Jack mules are slugs IMO..

I still would rather have a good horse for any cowboy chore..I know God had a since of humor, and he hated cowboys for their sinning ways, he needed to punish them, and that is how the Mule came into being!

I've ridden and packed plenty of both, and I prefer to ride a horse and pack mules. For all the reasons stated in other posts mules are better beasts of burden, but in sticky situations I want the animal to do what I tell it to, not what self-preservation that's been hardwired in it tells it to. Of course in an ideal situation your whole string can do double duty.

Atkinson.Yep,I shoot a pre 64 Win in.06, and I use cup and core 200 gr RN in it.

I wouldn't mind riding a mule versus a horse but I could never get used to the silly hats muleriders seem to gravitate to.

I told a cowboy friend of mine I had mules to go to the mtns. He told me I should not have an animal on the place that was smarter than I was. I told him that's why I had mules and he had horses. lol I like to pack and ride mules for the mtns. Mules are like women. nothing worse than a bad .one nuthin better than a good one.

A friend of mine who has had mules for years told me there's two kinds of mules: good ones and bad ones. He said if you get a bad one, just get rid of it .

How about a donkey? How much can they carry in comparison to a llama or goat? You could ride then into the mountains and then walk them out when you need to pack out game. Anyone have experience with the little long ears?

Even a miniature donkey can carry as much as a big llama. They're harder to train, though. I've never messed with them myself but they can do a good job. Minis are much easier to come by. 2 of them will carry about as much as 1 standard. You're better off having 2 anyway. A lone one will keep you awake all night bellowing for company.

Don't get a jack that's been allowed to breed. The dang things can kick up a real rodeo if they get near a jenny even after you get them castrated. Last spring, we were going through Craigs List to see if any packers were available. Most of those for sale were jacks. No thanks.

The donkeys are even smarter than mules,which leaves finding someone smarter than them a lot harder.

A standard sized donkey can carry around 200 lb. A good load for a mini is 80-100. You can ride a standard, but with their small size comfort might be lacking, especially in the hills. I feel much more comfortable on a big horse. I don't recommend riding very far in a pack saddle either. Your crotch will suffer badly even if you add stirrups. A riding saddle for a donkey might be a little hard to find.

I have a min donkey and cow ponies. The donkey is WAAAY harder to train than a horse! He is awesome at halter breakin colts! Throw a good halter on him, throw a loop around the colts neck, thats tied to the halter and watch them go... They damn sure cant drag him and after about 10 min the colts are ready to have a halter put on them. Tie them up short and the lil donkey leads the way! half an hour later you can lead the colts yourself.. I might try packin on him but we have planty of good cow ponies that are pretty bomb proof..

I owned a huge donkey one time. He was 13.5 hands and probably weighed 750 lbs ????. I bought him off a Mexican from Boquillas Mexico..He was a freak Mexican burro, and not a Mamouth Jack and he was one broke son of a gun...I hunted off him and he was twice as tough as the toughest mule I have ever owned. He had a fast lope at best, but I could pull a deer up in my lap and ride him 10 miles to the house or pickup in the mountains..He was an awesome animal, so good in fact that everyone wanted him, and finally I sold him for a small fortune...I named him Latigo, becasue he was tough as wang leather..Wonderful disposition..I have ofter regretted that sale...Never seen another like him.

The average burro can pack more weight per size than any other animal on earth..but they are mostly very hard to do anything with. More trouble than their worth IMO....I always thought the best thing for burro would be to run them with dogs and let them kill the Lions, they can and will do that if they have a colt and a loin gets after one.

Neighbor had a goood size donkey down in Alburque.He found a wrecked Cessna up in the Pecos Wilderness and went in there and cut out evything except the frame. He packed that out in one pice on the donkey. About 8 ft stuck out in front and about 8 ft stuck out in back.
The donkey did ok,but he cracked the up rights on my sawbuck pack saddle that he had borrowed from me.

The guy I got him from had 5 he was GIVING away to good homes. Some were standards and some minis. I should have taken them all.. The biggest was broke to ride and so was mine. He can carry the weight but it looks a lil funny with your feet about 6in off the ground though! The boy rides him sometimes but he doesnt "giddy-up" very well unless HE wants to.. Its quite comical.. I have found that he doesnt want to go in a pen where you want him to go the easiest way is to run a 4 wheeler up under his butt and he will just sit down and you can drive him wherever you want!! Stubborn little Ass...

With a mule you still have to have a horse mare, they won't cross water with out a mare to follow.

Mule shoes are harder to find.

What ever you buy, make sure they are raised in the rocks, that's how they learn to put their feet.

I've seen and used some great mules in my life, even ones you could shoot off of. I had some great horses also, you just have to understand the limitations and be ready for them.

Hmmm, seen my buddies 2 mules cross everything... no mare was within 50 miles.. Maybe I misread what you wrote...

All my mules cross water also ,go into lakes and I don't have a mare on the place. This early summer when the runoff was still strong,we went into the Flat Tops here in CO. Darn water was belly deep and whitewater to boot. These mules dove right in.

As for rocks, I'll be hunting up in the NW corner of Co in about two weeks .Right up against the UTand WY border. It's so rocky up there, I think that is where God piled all the rocks He had left over when he was done making our planet. When you point them in a direction,you'd best hold on ,because that is where they are going.

I do my own shoing and shoes are not hard to find. We have one shop here that carries St Croix and Diamond.I prefer the St Croix because they seem harder, but the Diamonds fit better without extra forming. 25-30 yrs ago,they were hard to find, but not now.
Oleo Acres has the shoes. Anyone can Google that.

Here's one of them mules here. A 10 yr old molly out of a 13 hd halflinger. She is just shy of 15hds. How can you not love an animal that looks this good. I'd not be embarassed to tie her outside any bar. BTW. This is the same mule a fellow on here accused me of not having her feet shod right from a picture taken 5 yrs ago, and said if I didn't do something right away,she was going to have permanent damage. The mules is still walking around.

Wow! She's perdy.. Nice and slick, too..

Mules will have either a horse style hoof, more round and a lot of semi-hard wall, there fairly easy to fit. Or more of a burro hoof, hard as nails and a very thin wall and shaped like the jack.

The more burro style hoof is harder to fit, the heals need to fallow closely and the nail holes of a standardized keg shoe will need to be re-punched finer or closer to the outside wall. The more burro style hoof dose not need shoes as readily as the more 'horse' style hoof.

Mules shoed up with hand-made shoes, frost-nails, borrium welded to the toes and heels of the shoes, and snow-pad is the ultimate off-road vehicle!

As mentioned, Oleo Acre's will ship, I get there once a week, very fortunate there, shoes are pricey to ship, but having what you need is priceless. Oleo Aceres Farier Supplies

You can shoot off any mule, once! (never a good practice, unless your being shot at maybe?)

I grew up in Deer creek canyon. You guys know why that place is called Oleo Acres?

I did have a mule I could shoot off of pretty regularly. Probably could have done some of that mounted cowboy shooting off him.Not so much with this one here. A person can't hit much that way, but I had some shot shells for my .357 that I would plink grouse with as I rode by.

I have mules with each of the type of foot described. I could do without the shoes on this one mule,but he is a fox trotter and will slide his back feet so much that the heels go real quick.Plus he has one foot off that he will round the inside heel off real quick too. He was born that way.

Right now I have the borium on toes and heels.Now that is expensive. About $13 a stick down here and I can do about 8 shoes with it. I just use regular nails though.

I'd like to find someone locally who can shoe mules right, as I'm getting too old for that.But all these guys around here want to jump out of the truck and get at it.Something you can't do with a mule. A person needs to take a few minutes to get to know them and vice versa. I did have one guy that was great and he claimed my mules were asier to shoe than most horses he did they were so well trained. He dallied a thumb and popped it off though and then was in bad truck accident.

Well, I have had little to do with horses, and nothing to do with mules...

...but I have to admit that this was a very enjoyable and interesting thread to read -- saddlesore especially!



John

Take C-470 past Santa Fe, north on Kippling, West on Chatsfild and south at the first light.

Not sure what that st. is called, but south on it to your first right (west) and turn in the first driveway north (right) .

Sort of messed up area, like an office complex area, it was right at the base of Deer Creek Canyon. Good people, you get there, check under the table near the anvils, my new (used) Pro-Forge is in!

Most of our mules came out of Mexico as 3 year olds, and never saw a shoe and never came up tender, but if you ever cut through that core then you had to shoe them from that day on..Same with the horses we got out of Mexico..

You could shoot around any of our mules and they would stand ground tied (reins just on the ground)that is the way we broke them, at best they would jump and go perhaps 25 feet but only if you were too close when you shot. I never even considered shooting off a horses back, accuracy is next to impossible, thats movie stuff IMO...Our mules would all pack a deer even with you in the saddle with the deer in your lap, as that is the way we did it..They were broke, broke, broke..That is why when we came out of our elk hunting camp in Colorado each year, the packers would be waiting at Chimney Rock to buy our mules every year..We would hold a silent auction..drop your name an bid in the hat type..They were mostly excellent hunting mules, hard footed and not a lazy bone in their bodies. We got top dollar for them. All the outlaws that wouldn't sell dad kept for us kids to ride another year. Gotta love him for that. Same with the horses, sold the good ones, rode the dinks and lied my ass off to him anytime I got a good one going, told him the horse was still bucking every day..He later told me he knew what I was up to..:)

I still prefer a horse!

Most folks think of me as an old world wide hunter, booking agent, stockmaker, but that is my business....My first love is none of those things..It's horses and roping and horses and roping and horses and roping. I might play a round of golf about once a year these days so that when I get to old to rope, I'll have something to do.

Like John, I have little to do with horses and mules, but I can say that I wouldn't have traded this mule for anything two years ago when I experienced the nasty side of the Gila. We encountered situations that could have gone ugly fast but she was as cool as a cucumber. I can only imagine the same situations with a half ass half ass (or half ass horse).

Notice the chain. The picture was taken after the kill and the guide was gone after the pack mules. She was NOT one bit happy about being left behind with me.

That's one outstanding looking piece of mule flesh!

saddlesore is right on with all that he has said.

I owned 60 horses and 20 mules.

While I rode a saddle horse most of the time. ( usually one in training ) I always looked forward to riding a mule. You can work a horse to death, you can't a mule. A horse will give you 100% and then a bit more when asked and then die. A mule will give you 100% then call it a day.

Mule are a much better ride(smoother) unless you've a good saddlebred or foxtrotter. Even then a mule can keep up.

No doubt you need a picket mare or 3 in camp. Otherwise your mules will leave ya for the trailhead.

I've many a pards who switched from ponies to mules... I've half a mind to.

see ya on the trail..

Those are awesome pics.. couldnt get any better,,

sure it can here we are about to drop into camp...

Atkinson. Sure wish I knew you back in those days.

Wyowhisper.
That mule should have been named "Socks with being all black and 4 white feet.

Oleo Acres = One of the Cheaper Spreads.

I first started to go up years ago when it was out there west of the resevoir. Had a hell of a time finding it when it moved up into that industrial zone.They just opened a small shop a few miles east of me a few years ago.So I need to go only about 5 miles instead of 65

Damn, I like those photos.Makes me want to go packin again. Can't lift those panniers anymore, but if you guys ever need a good camp cook, let me know.

My two cents: I'm a backpacker from way back, but I got tired of packing elk out on my back and wanted to be able to get farther in. I thought a lot about what kind of packstock to get. I'm nearly 50 years old with very little equine experience. I did not want to be maimed or killed by my stock, either accidentally or on purpose. I didn't have or want to spend the years needed to learn to handle horses or mules. I didn't want my pasture to be grazed down to dirt, and my fences weren't all that great. I'd been on a few llama trips in the past, and after much contemplation decided to get llamas.

I bought 3 experienced packers and 2 young novices last summer. I worked with them over the summer and took them on their first pack trip last October, when I went elk hunting. I killed a bull and they made the packing easy. This summer I've taken them on 4 pack trips to practice more and get them in shape for fall. Things are going great.

I think all the benefits of horses and mules have been covered already. If circumstances were different, I guess I'd get myself a couple of mules. Anyhoo, here is what I have learned:

Llamas require very little maintenance. They don't eat much and are easy on the pasture. They don't challenge fences. They aren't cuddly. They are stoic and don't seem to get sick or injured. You can't work them to death. If they can't go anymore, they lay down. They enjoy chasing strange dogs that come into the pasture. We've had a black bear in the pasture once; the llamas ran at him and he ran off and that was that. Word amongst Colorado packers is that bears stay away from llamas. Cougars may be another story.

Packing with them is easy. Mine have carried up to 90 pounds so far without difficulty. On the trail, we get varying reactions from horsepackers. A lot of them seem to think we are granola sucking hippies from California. Horses often spook even though we get the llamas far off the trail as soon as we can. The llamas don't spook on the trail. They may stop and look and listen. They almost always see game before we do. When picketed out, they don't panic when they get tangled up, no matter how bad the tangle is.

Weight is still an issue. Llama packers can't take wall tents and such. My camp would never be mistaken for a horse packer outfit. I use a Kifaru tipi and all my backpacking gear. Now I can have some luxuries like a nice chair and better food. This year I upgraded to a Kni-Co stove.

Riverdog.You hit the nail on the head.Them critters spook horses and mules to death,unless the stock has been around them.
Encounter a pack string on a tight mountain trail and you are in for a wreck.

We recently bought 3 llamas that we're working on. We took them on a 2 mile hike the other day and passed the neighbor's mule pasture. The mules, and 1 horse, charged the fence and generally went nuts, especially the horse. They didn't run away, though. They wanted over the fence to see what these strange things were. The horse did a fair bit of bucking and farting before he decided that they weren't going to eat him.

We try real hard to keep an eye out and get off the trail whenever horses are coming but sometimes visibility isn't good and we sneak up on each other. We've caused a few small scale rodeos but so far nobody has been thrown or otherwise injured. Any suggestions on helping us avoid spooking horses would be greatly appreciated.

Hey Vince, if you ever think about moving this mule to a different pasture, please let me know as I would be interested. By the way, I'm about half way through reading all those links you sent me...that's some serious information and it takes several times to read over so as to absorbe all the knowledge.

Thank you!!!

Robert

If you see each other with enough distance TALK to the horses long before you get up on them.

The biggest goblin out ther are back packers with huge packs that extend above the head.Then they get off the trail a few steps and won't say a word.Hores and mules generally freak out. Put a llamna behind them and you have utter chaos.As Wyowhisper said, talk a lot.

These hikers have no idea that a mule or horse can kick out side ways when they walk pass.

Bob. I sold one good mule to a fellow in Grand Junction two yrs ago. The rest stay here until I can't ride anymore. My pard has a big (16+ ) hand Tennessee Walker mule for sale that is pretty good. 11 yrs old, bred and raisded on the place,been in elk camp every year excpet the last two. My buddies knees gave out and the mule is too tall for him to get on anymore.He had to go out and bought a little 13&1/2 hd one. This mule packs camps,meat, and rides well, easy to shoe and trailer. Walks out pretty fast and has a easy sitting gait.

Those padded feet on a llama come in pretty handy sometimes. They can deliver a pretty good kick, too, but unless they rake you with a toenail, the foot pads cushion most of it. You'll get a good bruise, but nothing will likely break. They can't get too far out to the side, either.
They're like a horse in one way - when it comes, you won't know it until it's too late. That foot is FAST

Last year on an elk hunt in Colo.I alternated between riding a horse and my cousin's wife's mule "Rose".Both were great but after about a foot of snow the difference was dramatic as far as the sure-footed talents of the mule.The horse slipped,stumbled and even fell down (with me of course) while ole'Rose walked the same trails as easily as walking down a sidewalk.In fact,this year I've even inquired how "my" mule is doing and is she ready to hunt.Just my observation. Kix

Mustangs are the happy medium...

here's one of the mean ones...

For testing bullets...

Hardly.

You've probably tried going at them and training them like a domestic horse.

As they say, "good luck with that".

I am afraid this is like the 270 vs 3006, I have used both for years and for differant reasons. some times a mule was better for a job and vice versa. I got a pair of mules now, and one is very good at spotting game. If your a product of a push button world mules may not be the way to go.

I've never tried training a horse of any stripe or color. 'Wild' horses they aren't and the way the feds have to 'manage' them borders on comical.

Glad you like 'em, just make sure you adopt a few more!

This is thread is the most enjoyable I have ever found on the internet, thank you.

My first 20 yrs or so were spent on a cattle farm and we used Quarter Horses and Apps for work and recreation, but I have never had any dealings with mules.

A lot of the information here reminds me of the Will James book "Cowboys North and South". Different strokes for different folks.

You would know what I mean if I mentioned a 'traditional stock horse' ?

Since 1/4 horse have been bread for at least 5 different uses for years, mentioning the breed can be confusing to some. Appies have been diluted with 1/4 horse, so their not so basic anymore, you mentioned 'work' I know you know the difference !

But that 'traditional stock horse' type is hard to beat in the mountains!

Having packed professional on horses and mules, shoed horses and mules for over 20 years, I have meet less then 100 'good' mules in my lifetime. But have meet hundreds of good horses.

A good mountain horse will not be as tall as most stock horse breeders try for. And they will never have the top-end speed that most currant trends look for.

A good solid built , well muscled, round boned (cannons) rounded or wide oval barreled (rib-caged) straight conformation, good head-set and level-headed with a good work ethic horse, is hard to beat.

Traditional stock-horses were not as tall as we see them today, 15H would be on the tall side. If the first thing that catches your eye is how much muscle and well put together the horse is, is a very good one to spend more time looking over. Most horses used for mountain work today are pushing the tall/speed spectrum of useful DNA, you will get more work out of a horse breed differentially (traditionally).

We never see it any more, but well breed Cobb X's have done a lot of work as stock horses. Most everything anyone has ever rode or packed will fallow more of the Arib style blood-lines. Mountains and packing tend to favor more of a Barb style breeding. Some Mustangs fallow more of the Barb style. I have meet a few Mustangs I really liked.

President Useless S Grant was given 2 stud horses, one well bread Barb, and one well bread Arib stud, by the Sultan of Istanbul as a gift. Grant started a breed called the Ranger Horse with them, latter called the Colorado Ranger Horse, his idea was fantastic! Taking those studs and covering every mare they could find from Chief Joesph (real Appies), culling the less desirable offspring, much the same way the Appolisia's were refined, rendered a 'can-do' horse! Modern breeders ruined Grants idea, Ranger horses today look like modern Appies.

My idea, make this one a little shorter, round out and shorten the cannon bone, more inner-leg mussel, and a slightly wider stance in front, give him a job to tone the muscle on him, and some hoof under him, and you could drag your elk out!


Or just worm, shoe and put some weight on this one, I'm good!



In my opinion, mules will not out work a well breed horses for most people.

A hint, Chief Joseph and 800 of his men women and children, and their belongings, out ran 2000 of the US finest soldiers and scouts on horses and mules, for 3 months and 1700 miles of mountainous terrain!

K_Salonelk said "In my opinion, mules will not out work a well breed horses for most people."

Probably true,but that is not the mules fault, it's the handler or trainer.

However, it has been proven time amd time again that given a mule and a horse of the same size, a mule will out work that horse every time given the same degree of training.In fact a smaller mule will usually out work that bigger horse. Add excessive heat to the equation and the horse will quit, or even die far ahead of the mule. Look at all the long range endurance races and compare how many mules have won vs how many horses. Go to some puling events and compare a 2500 lb team of mules a to a 2500 lb team of horses. The mules out pull the horses every time in categories that compare the percenatge of thier weight to how much they pull. In fact, most pulls will not let mules compete directly with horses anymore.In just about any species of animal,the hybrid will out do the straight lineage.At the turn of the century and a little before,there were actually more mules being worked in harness than horses. During the western expansion, inS t Louis, mules would consistently bring twice to three times more in dollars than teams of horses and would be worth even more when they reached thier destination.

As I mentioned before,with horse or mules, there are certian breeds that do certain jobs better than others. The traditional stock horse as you mentioned has been bred for a long time to be cowey, have lots of stamina and have good legs and feet.

A lot of these good horses are still being bred on ranches that still use the horse as thier main tool of working cattle.
Unfortunately though, many more of the breeds have been so modified for the show ring that they would not stand up to the rigors for which they were originally intended. Sad to say,we are seeing the same thing now days with good saddle mules. Small feet,heavy frames and pencil thin legs.

Barrel racers, cutting horses, roping horses, etc. have all had thier lineage tailored specifically for the task they are meant to handle. But how many of those task specific horses can be driven, packed and ridden.

The heavy horses ( draft horse are a misnomer.You use heavy breed,cold bloods to do draft work)have been bred with excessivley long legs which puts them too high to give good pulling capabilities. The 1/4 horses have been bred with disporportionate body size for thier feet and legs, leading to unsoundness in earlier yrs. The morgans have been bred up in size from thier original lineage. Little 13 hd halflingers that commonly are 13 hds are now showing up at 14 &1/2 + hds. Appalosas now do not even have to show color to be registered. Pick just about any breed and you can find the same thing.

It has been my experince ( which includes a lot of years) that cowboys working cattle with horses are the hardest to to get riding a mule. Probably because the mule takes longer and requires more patiencet o train and most working ranches do not have time as a luxury. Tradition has a lot to do with it also. In addition, few younger cowboys have yet to develope the certain attitude required to work with a mule. A lot of them let thier predjudices over rule thier common sense.

I agree with RexM, this thread has been enjoyable and informative. Good work guys!

Having never earned a dollar that didn't come from a horse, cow or rodeo i've been around lots of horses. Broke them, ranched,roped,packed,cut,reined etc. Only really been around one mule dad owned when i got out of school so i've got lots of examples of one. That molly came out of mexico and i think was 3/4 jackass.
An old hollywood movie wrangler told me the reason guys rode mules is they were to poor to afford a horse and to proud to ride a cow.
All jesting aside i have seen some awfully nice mules around some of the movies and i have quite a little intrest in them. I guess i'm to tight to buy a good one and don't have the time to spend training one just to hunt on. I raise 2 or 3 colts every year that we use on the ranch and rope on and use on the occasional movie that shows up in these parts.
Great thread! Some very diverse opinions and styles presented here.

Fred

Bingo!

The reason in all those years he's only met about 100 good mules is straight up idiots for owners and not the Mules fault at'all. Same is said for those who think they know their way around a Mustang.



This badass will take it to, and last longer than any of your tiny feet, thin boned, over muscled "performance horse" day in and day out...

Straight up true blue Gubmint Mustang. I paid $25.

Here's a shot of my mother's brother, taken sometime around WWII. He spent the war in AK building the Al-can highway, then Europe and I don't know if this was before or after that.

He worked as a ranch hand most of his life before starting his own small herd of dairy cows.

We had a Skipper W bred mare from OK that was like that. Just barely 14 hands but stocky, strong legs, lots of foot, and fast. Some fool made her mouth into cast iron, but she knew more about stock than we did so really there was little need for "guidance" from us. She was doing more at 16 yrs than some of the big butt, little foot horses were at 5 or 7. Good horse.

Is there still the move within AQHA to go back to the traditional form? They were trying to go that way the last year or two we raised foals.

Funny what happened to the Apps, isnt it? I have used some that were fat 1/4 horses with spots, which are not all bad, but the best one we had around was a runt. If you were color blind and he had a sack on his head, you would have thought he was one of the real Arabs. Looked like a rat, was so short a fellow with long legs could clear him, but dang if he couldn't near climb trees. He loved to run the dogs, if you hunted off of him you were in for a ride because he would slide down the lime stone, jump into and swim the river, and dang near run the logs after coons or squirrels. He was a good horse to, but in a different way.

My big "American Horses" were a joy to use and if I had it to do over again I wouldn't want anything else (unless its that pretty sorrel long-ear someone posted a pic of :)) , but they couldn't keep up with that spotted rat in the woods.

I'v got to to say I have been fortunate to own one super good horse and one super good mule in my life.
The horse was an cross something.As Baxter Black says, Out Of Truck from OK.He was smallish, maybe 14 hds,maybe 800 lbs, had more of fox trotter build than anything,but probably also had some Arab in him. He was kept east of Albuquerque in the Manzano mtns, and the guy got tired of sending the brand inspector down to the indian reseravtion to claim him as the boys kept stealing him.I paid $175 for him,saddle and everything else.When I went to get him,he jumped up in the bed of my 58 Ford pickup that I had a stock rack on.He took to me instantly and I to him. That was back in 65 or so and he stayed with me until maybe 77 or so when I finally had to put him down. He is buried on the place here.
He did about everything,but decided he wasn't a cow pony when I roped an angus bull that drug him over 20 acres.I learned a lot about tieing hard that day,or rather not to.

The mule, I bought as a weanling at about the same time the horse went to his maker. This mules was about typical of the mules you found back in the early 70's. Smallish, big head, short neck,short cannon bones and his trot was like a pogo stick.There was not much info back then about training mules so I set about it myself. We made a few mistakes,but he came out pretty good. Won a bunch of ribbons and such for gymkhana events and western pleasure and reining, but shined in the mountains.We did the Forth Worth Fat Stock Show,the Denver Western, NM State Fair and Iowa State fair, and many parades. He was pretty well known and a lot of parades you could hear the crowd yelling "Here comes Whiskey"
We did the St Patricks Day Parade in Denver with all the drunks out hanging on him and did a small parade up north where they had a F-14 fly over. We truned around and all the horses had bucked off thier riders and Whiskey just turned 180 to watch them come in,then did the flip side to watch them go.He's buried on the place too

Any horseman or muleman that has owned such an animal knows what it is to have that one good mount and you spend the next many years looking for a replacemnt but some how,none measure up.You get some goods ones,but never quite as good. A lot of dog owners know the feeling too.

So I'm not down on horses, I enjoy a really good one. I was just hurt or dissappointed too many times trying to find a replacment and an orney litle,black mule just seemed to fit me better.I have been riding them ever since. I would ride a horse if it meant I had to walk otherwsie though.

SS,

You mean like this ugly sumbich. "Dusty"

I'm not convinced that appys have ever really had a set confirmation other than color and stamina. They were bred by the Nez Perce Indians and they wanted color. Their horses were pretty mixed for body type but they had some really tough animals.

I don't know Wyowhisper.That looks like a matched set to me.

"You mean like this ugly sumbich. "Dusty""

prezacktly my point!

Rock Chuck...

I had an appy that was off the wild horse ranges in NV. So technically it was a mustang and gubmint branded.

Tell you what, he wasn't fast but the son of a buck would go all day long and the next day before supper. Now matter where ya pointed him... he'd go straight up a cliff and never break stride or slow down.

[quote=WyoWhisper] Now matter where ya pointed him... he'd go straight up a cliff and never break stride or slow down. [/quote

That is what I liked about our little one, he would go anywhere.

I would have like to have used him to sort cattle, as he had a bit of a turn to him, but never got the chance as someone was always hunting on him.

I am curious about the Mustangs; we only had one come through the place and it was a more of a pet. A worthless pet at that. Hammerhead, long back, no give at all to the pasterns, etc. Could kick and bite though. But I knew folks who had some fine stock from the govt programs, thats a nice looking one in the photo. Are mustangs like wives, either very good or very bad?

How come it's only the horse guys that have prejudices?

I'll grant you the tradition part. But I'm with Ray, most mules can't/won't move like a horse. I'm not talking about the rodeo arena either.

Well Ralphie,it is probably because you haven't been on a good trained mule.I'd bet you are under 35, and have the attitude that all cowboys ride horses and tradition says you have to. Nothing wrong with that and I'm not picking on you for it. Heck, if it were not for horse riders, we would have anything to breed to make good mules.However,if you think cowboys never ride mules,you need to work down in AZ, NM or parts of Texas or Nevada. You also need to spend some time at Jake Clarks Mule sale and rodeo in Powell, WY and the Mule Days at Bishop Ca ,if you don't think mules can move like a horse and ar not athletic.

There was fellow at the Eagle Co Mule sale this year from Riley NM.That is all high desert country. He and his family ranched 57 sq miles of that nothing country and does it all with big tall 16-17 hd mules

As for the predjudiced part.I have just always found it is the horse mounted guys who claim they would not be caught dead on a mule.

Common sense says if we can find some thing to do the job better,we use it. Example:I would not try to pull my gooseenck with a 1/2 ton pickup.

Most mule riders did not start off as mule riders. In fact I don't now anyone who was not a horse back rider to begin with.These folks didn't just one day say,"I'm going to start riding" and decided they would ride a mule instead. They just made the switch after they found out mules could do what they wanted just as well as the horse but had more attributes. I'd never climb on a mule that only did mountain trail work in order to work cattle on, just as I'd never climb on a roping horse, that only did that for a living ,to run up and down mountains with.

I have been around horses/mules and donkeys my whole hunting life and I will take a good quarter horse over a good mule for hunting..I also have seen more than one hillside torn up from horses and mules not wanting to pack game or are just in the mood to be ornery that day.

A good hunting animal is one you raise from a baby just for that.I have held on to the tail of a nice palomino which pulled me up the steep trail with half an elk on it's back with it's "master" leading it. It also was the family pet in Eagle Idaho in the old days and stuck it's head through the kitchen window..

There both good but once you have either and only use it for hunting,your in for a surprise.I have had over 20 horses and mules in my day and can't afford them anymore as they are spendy as hell anymore.

Just my opinion...Jayco

Your pretty much right Jayco. I have probably had 30 or so mules ,not near as many horses,and the best are the hand raised ones for the purpose you want them for.

Well... Most people will throw in a Pat Perelli sp? CD and start in on 'em... they soon decide it isn't worth but the price of AlPO. Not the way you do it.

Here's the cliff notes.

If you have a BLM horse from the range you gotta remember they are a flight animal and havn't seen many 2 legged things that have done anything nice for em. It is a by far slower process. Also, not a 1 or 2 hour a day thing. Once you start school there are only certain times you can "call it a day". Then you are right back at it the next day. My wife has more patience in that regard than I ever will. There were quite a few 10-15 hour days. Everything I mean everything is done from the ground first until it is SOLID. Then just a bit more. Then you begin the sideline and take a few good full hours of just testing the waters. Then get your best snubbing horse. Preferable one that out muscles or out weighs the Mustang by a bit. Then you test the waters. If there is any hitch or hole right back to the ground work.

It is a slow tedious trial. But in the end we never gave one up. They for sure arn't for everyone. I havn't seen many pards who started em right wish they hadn't, nor been eager to give em up.

Maybe?

I tend to think that the Nez Perc knew what they were doing.

Meriwether Lewis of the Lewis and Clark Expedition wrote in his February 15, 1806 journal entry:



Appaloosa Horse Club itself estimates that only about ten percent of the horses owned by the Nez Perce at the time were spotted.
Many believe that the spotted pattern was an after thought after the trend was established.

There is one clear fact, most foundation breed Appies will have half the hoof problems that AQHA's will have.

Another item for a think, about 1-in-10 to 1-in-12 Appies are also traceable to President Grants studs from Istanbul, the Ranger Horse, and that is purly a 'blood' breed.

Any one interested, here is a link to something I find of interest, I owned 2 Ranger Horses in my life, really liked both of them, (but will not vouch for the all of the breed) 9Link: )

Around here, we use a lot of Mustangs in a huge kids program that I am blessed to be a part of!

Here is a little article about he program and their use of Mustangs.

�Chance� Joins Ranks of Other Famous BLM Mustangs in Colorado

Some Youtube vids, just kids, lot of Mustangs in the ranks...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7tqCKMqTc0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT9D7nRJ2uY&feature=related

I can't really get into the horse vs. mule argument as I have seen good examples of both. Myself, I have a molley mule I broke 21 years ago. She is part of the family. I've a custom made saddle with mule bars and she is a nice ride. I also used to drive her some in a fancy high wheel wooden cart I built. I haven't drove her in years and my riding is about down to nothing as it kills my bad knee. SS is correct on going to Bishop to see some killer mules, they are there is spades. It is like Sturgis for mules. There is something fun there for everyone to do, even if they aren't into mules.

One thing about owning a mule that the horse guys can't live up to is, "getting drunk on my ass".

Saddlesore,

You nailed the age part, 33. But I've ridden some good mules including two friend's mules that were bought at Jake's sale. Actually several of Jake's family members come to a big branding here every spring (they are all dang good hands). There is usually 4 or 5 of them and they've brought one mule, one time. Only used him for dragging calves. That isn't much of a representation of their riding, so I'm not making any judgements.

I think some mule guys might be just a tad prejudiced themselves. We should argue this some more sitting around a real fire someday. My vanity isn't so great that I can't ride with a guy riding a half-ass

708fan
Here are a couple for you. This mule is 26 yrs old

Hey Ralphie.I pulled cows teats for all my early years. Back then when we went to school,all us farmer kids had to sit in the back away from the stove because the city kids said we stunk when we got warm. I could never get cow smell off me from having my head buried in thier flank twice a day. I try real hard not to mess with them critters now days,except maybe to eat one. Around here they have a lot of small roping and team penninmg events and they always want me to come play.I always tell them I don't consider a cow a companion animal to play with

Ralphie,
One thing I have learned over the years from being around Mules and Mule men all my life is that it won't do any good at all to try and reason with them, they like those long eared demons because they both have the same qualities and dispositions!

I will put money that my well bred 14 year old registered rope horse, cow horse, hunting horse, that will catch the fastest steer out there in a heart beat, will pack a large deer in my lap 5 miles and can top any mountain in Idaho or Arizona in record time and when all the horses around me are foaming with sweat, he might be wet under the saddle blanket and instead of heaving he wants to eat grass..That is what he is, smart, tough as wang leather, and well trained...and at the end of a hard day I can go team rope steers until dark or I can rope 50 steers at a jackpot and he will run the last steer just like the first steer..I have never had a mule come close to this kind of ability and don't believe their is one.

BTW, the mule that was ridden by Buddy Heaton is all those old movies and rodeos was born and raised on my dads ranch, I broke and trained that mule, buddy taught him all those neat tricks..I had to teach him English as the dumb sob could only speak Spanish. His name was Hollywood and he was a really good mule, I hunted off him and could pack a deer in my lap on him. He was a smart mule and I hated to sell him but the money was too good.

Atkinson. Funny you should say that. My wife says the same thing.

"One thing I have learned over the years from being around Mules and Mule men all my life is that it won't do any good at all to try and reason with them, they like those long eared demons because they both have the same qualities and dispositions!"

Since first hand knowledge and experience trump all else on this forum,Were going to have to go with Mrs saddlesore on that one.

Ok, this is for you guys who've read all this and got convinced that you MUST have a mule. Here's a classic: MULE FOR SALE
I'm sure the mule men here will want to jump right on this one. Be sure to read the 1st sentence. Here's a line that shows up later: "He is a good mule, he will reward you with many years of entertainment and companionship and POSSIBLY even service." (emphasis added)

just don't pack him in a snowstorm.

1st bad indicator: Rescue mule, All kind of bad things could be in it's back ground. You can't save them all.

2nd bad indicator.Referred to as this little boy: Must be a woman owner.Most think equines are cute cuddly pets that won't hurt you.

3rd bad indicator.It picks on little things.Hell yes.Most mules do that. The owner doesn't know squat about that.

4th bad indicator,She wants an adoption fee. Darn thing isn't worth more than $50 and that is being kind. Should be free. Probably weighs about 300 lbs. That isn't worth a meat buyers time. Might possibly make good bear bait if ripe enough.

Dang. I thought you guys would jump all over this one.
I'm guessing the thing has never been saddled and has been nothing more than a pasture ornament. It's too small to ride at any rate.
I've heard that some donkeys can make decent guard animals, but I've never heard of a guard mule. It's been gelded, but at what age? I'm guessing that it was after it was rescued and nobody's told the mule that yet.
You're right about one thing - the price. Does that mean she'll pay me $400 to take it off her hands? $200 should be enough to rent a backhoe or hire 4 Mexicans to give it a decent burial.

I had the opportunity to ride Jake Clark's mules on an elk hunt and I can tell you they are fantastic. Now I will say I am no horseman, but I was very impressed. The stuff we went through and up and around and such was impressive. I wouldnt hesitate to ride his mules again anywhere.

I hunted with an outfitter in Gardiner, MT who used mules and horses both, but preferred the mules for the packing chores. Said they worked harder and were more sure footed. He has been doing that gig for about 30 years.