In 7mm(.284)pellets, fired from a 7RSaum I have read a lot about different bullets and their construction. Have talked to a few who said that even though the hunting version of Berger's VLD's only retain 40-60% of their weight they are lethal on Elk at long range. Does anyone here have any practical experience with these. They are made in 140gr, 168gr and 180gr, I would favor the 168's from a ballistics only comparison. Any practical advice?

I think you might get a little more play on this topic in the reloading forum. I too am interested in the 168 bergers on elk.

Can only comment on a 168 gr Berger VLD, out of my 30.06, that slipped between the ribs on the left side of a cow Elk,tore up the lungs, punched through a rib on the right side and ended up in the upper right foreleg. She took exactly one step and simply sagged to the ground. 210 yards. Muzzle velocity at 70F and 700 ft Elevation was 2650 - so at 20F and 8000ft, it would have been, what, 'around' 2200 or less when it hit her?

Don't know if that helps you, but I'm happy with them in .308 caliber - YMMV.

Don`t own a 7mm, but from my 300 WSM, I did use the 190 gr hunting VLD on a bull elk from 328 yards.

The VLD impacted on the bull`s right side penetrating the thickest part of the shoulder bone, then continued on doing enormous internal damage. The bull collapsed after staggering between two to four yards. Bullet fragments were found just below the hide on the opposite side.

Aside from that one bull elk VLD experience, I have used the 168 and more recently the 175 VLDs to kill nearly 50 small to large hogs. All so far have been one shot devastating kills.

You must understand several things about the hunting VLDs.

First...Throw most conventional bullet wisdom out the window. The VLDs kill game using a different method or concept.

Second...VLD users are not concerned with bullet weight retentions, bullet recoveries or complete pass through penetrations. The vitals which need to be effectively disrupted, are located in the animal`s center towards the front. Also ime with hogs anyway, perfect 90 degree broadside shots (although preferred) do not always have to be made. With good placement as with any bullet, VLD shot angles can vary up to 35-40 degrees either quartering to or quartering away. Again, the vitals are located where?

Thirdly...Complete pass throughs or not, bullet recoveries or not, bullet weight retentions or not, what matters imo is simply this..."Do I have a dead animal which was quickly killed, and did I need to track that animal after the shot? Period. That is what determines VLD success.

And yes, the 7mm VLDs are extremely lethal on elk from long range. Berger will tell you, that a minimum of 1800 fps is needed at impact for the VLDs to do the job even through thick bone. They will also tell you that the VLDs are NOT just long ranged killers. Meaning that if your elk is only say 100 yards away, the much higher impact velocity into bone (if that is the case), won`t blow the VLDs apart before it has a chance to penetrate the first few inches like they are supposed to do.

I remember that there was a second party poster on this forum here, who reported about a year ago, that a 7mm hunting VLD was used by some retired military guy? to down a huge Alaskan moose from a distance in excess of 900 yards. It is a fact, that many elk have fallen to the 7 mm hunting VLDs from 500 yards out to 900, and even out to 1000 yards.

Like all beginning VLD users at first, we all had to start somewhere and be willing to try them on our hunts.

Thus far, I certainly "haven`t" been disappointed. In fact, I`ve been amazed by their quick lethality and devastation.

I haven't hunted elk but after having good success with 140gr VLD's on deer in my 6.5x55 decided to try them or similar bullet in my 7x57, Custom Ruger M77 MKII action, 24" Lilja barrel with 1:9 twist. I settled on the 162gr Hornady A-max (haven't tried the VLD in this caliber yet) which has performed extremely well on Deer at close and long range. I agree with bigsqeeze, "VLDs kill game using a different method or concept", and also the A-max. Very quick kills in my experience. These 2 bullets are very effective when impact is below 2600 fps (and good shot placement) and thus far have proven to be a great all-round bullet on medium game for the slower 7x57. I'm not suggesting that this can automatically be extrapolated to CPX3 game at higher impact velocities, but just my personal experience with these 2 similar bullets.

I might get lynched out there, but here are my thoughts...

I would throw this up with the "mechanical Vs. fixed broadhead" conversations....

Although I have never used them, what scares me is their overall theory of a bullet fragmenting out once inside the animal. I think the concept is good, IF the bullet makes it inside the animal.

My friend took shot a doe at 400 yards, and hit the shoulder, about an inch to the right of the chest. The doe dropped yes, but the bullet did not penetrate the cavity and blew up (fragmented) on the shoulder. I feel he was lucky to recover the deer since the bullet did not penetrate vitals. He was fortunate that it dropped right there. Otherwise, there would be a doe running around with a 3 inch wound on her shoulder....

I have read other similar stories online as well.

That is just food for thought. In the same way one can argue "mechanical broadheads" kill, but there is always that chance that it wont work. That is how I feel about the Berger VLD's.

That being said, I shoot mechanicals.....

Just my 38 cents.....

joe

What bullet, caliber, velocity etc. was in the equation? Bullets do NOT blow up on the whimpy shoulder of deer, unless they are light for caliber or varmint bullets. If it was indeed a Berger VLD or Hornady, it didn't blow up. Unless you were there and saw it, I would take it with a grain of salt. Did your friend do a complete autopsy, or just assume what took place. The deer was dead, that is not a failure in any way. She dropped right there. Would an exit hole have given you more? Comparing this to archery is like comparing a parachute to a fighter jet. Flinch

BigSqueeze totally nailed it! Nicely written. Flinch

No question these (Berger Hunting VLD and A-Max) are more frangible bullets and those are valid concerns. I was definitely a skeptic before I started using them on deer. Disintegration of these bullets on bone strikes is more of a concern in theory when impact occurs at distances where the velocity has dipped to less than 1800fps. Most of my shots are less than 200 - 250 yds (where velocity is still greater than 2200 fps)and high shoulder shots have produced DRT results on lighter frame deer. Penetration has been surprisingly good with exceptional wound channels. At longer distances where velocity has dropped, I still think you could argue that these bullets can be more ethical killers in the absence of bone strikes secondary to the fact that these projectiles require very little resistance to initiate expansion and produce impressive internal damage secondary to their exposive nature. As bigsqueeze posted, they have been reported on numerous occasions to harvest Elk cleanly out to 500 - 1000 yards. Bone strikes at these longer distances certainly could fail but the same can be said for competing bullets at lower impact velocity , such are the limitations of our current technology. I'm not touting them as a "do-all" bullet (I still love my TSX's and Partions) but these are not just target bullets. They can be very effective, fast killing bullets in a wide range of situations.

My buddy and I have shot elk, deer and bison with the Amaxs at 20 yards out to 600. Even the close up major bone doesn't seem to bother them. They still penetrate exceptionally well and stuff dies right on the spot. At long range, same results. Stuff just crumples, no matter if bone or tissue is contacted. Exit holes are rare, but nothing moves, so it doesn't matter. I like stuff dead on the spot, before some weekend warrior sees it running and starts banging away at it, or before it dives off into some hell hole. Out of over 30 animals, only a couple have moved and they didn't move far. They only moved over closer to the potatoes ;o) Flinch

Flinch, didnt mean to ruffle any feathers. I didnt know you had a stake in VLD's.



Actual message from friend: "168 grain Berger VLD Bullets...high shoulder shot...cmpletly broke her shoulder with a silver dollar sized entry hole...no exit. Very impressed with these bullets."

His previous message: "407 yards - 17 clicks up, 5mph wind - 4 clicks to the right, doe down."

If you read my post, I said it killed a deer. I was simply saying that I use a different bullet.

You also must have misread, or misunderstood my point on archery broadheads. I said comparing bullets (between VLD's and say bonded bullets) was like comparing mechanical and fixed broadheads.

The original post asked for experiences with these bullets. I stated the other side of the coin, from an experience my friend had. As you can see, he likes them.

No need to puff up your chest as if these VLD's are fool proof. To suggest that these bullets will never have problems, considering their theory of a fragmented bullet (40-60% weight retention) is simply not smart. It is something that should be considered when shooting any bullets.

Again, my opinion.

joe

Once again we get posts on VLD's from people who have never used them, and who ASSUME because VLD's kill by breaking up that they might on impact.

Unlike most bullets, VLD's do not even START to expand on impact. Instead they go in a couple of inches before fragmenting. And they do this over and over and over again, whether the shot is close-up or far away, even on bone. I know this because I have seen dozens of VLD's in various sizes used on big game from 20 yards to 550+, instead of just theorizing on what happens from somebody else's deer.

I want to hear from someone that has some REAL high velocity close impact shots with the Berger VLD. Not the A-Max, the Berger. I'm moving the 190 grain damn near 3400 fps. I've also taken big bulls at WAY under 100 yards. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. mtmuley

Sorry, the closest I can come is the .300 Winchester Magnum with 168's at 3200 or so. Have seen several animals shot with that load at less than 50 yards, and the bullets worked fine, but that isn't 3400 fps.

Theory? What theory?

I just showed you a picture of a VLD bullet expanding on impact on a shoulder shot. It did not "go in" a couple inches and expand.

Your theory does not explain that.

I dont care who used the bullets, and I am sure they will continue to kill animals. I just dont use them.

joe

I used one the other day out of my .257 Wby at 3400 fps. 115 gr Berger. I'll try and post a pic but it was impressive. It knocked the deer (smallish MS Doe) about 7-8 ft backwards and lifted her off the ground. She didn't move. Vitals were crushed. Off side rib cage was missing and off side shoulder was mush. Do not shoot anything you intend to eat. Shot was slightly angling toward me, went in just in front of the shoulder where the neck meets and the entrance was barely noticeable. Exit was unreal.
Lee

I have seen this happen, not with a VLD mind you. Shooting a 130GR Winchester Silvertip, the ones that came in the silver box and had that rounded silver head on the bullet. Shot a deer at about 175 yrds, bullet broke the shoulder but did not penetrate into the chest cavity. Deer dropped in the CRP and I thought it was DRT. I waited for the group of guys who were watching me, do my stalk, from the county road to drive out to me. We then walked out to pick up the deer. I get out to were I had it marked and start searching and find blood. They were like what the heck, it fell straight down. We follow the blood about 20 yards and the deer stands and starts trying to run, next shot finished him off.

Two years earlier I was using the same bullets and shot my first deer, 175 pound buck, that was walking straight at me square in the chest. He fell DRT, shredded heart and lungs. I thought it was the have all be all of bullets at that time. I also shot a coyote with the same bullet, entered didnt exit, dead as a door nail.

So with my limited experince with the silvertip I decided it was a bullet for light skinned game inside of 150 yrds. This may not be true for the silvertip, but its what im lieing eyes tell me. I sure hope they tell me that the 168gr 7mm bergers perform as advirtised and im staring at a nice mature elk this next fall. Heck i'll even be happy with a calf.

Badley

I now have all the confidence I need thanks to Mule Deer's remarks about the VLD's.

What cartridge are you using. Just curious.

It was that dang .270 you were shooting, not the 130 grain bullet ;o)

Any chance of the bullet hitting CRP, grass or something else before hitting the deer? I just have a hard time understanding how bullets of said weight blow up on light tissue, without hitting something before hitting the animal. Something had to start the bullet unraveling before it hit the deer. Anywho, bullets do strange things some times. Flinch

Not a VLD story, but in the same vein. I had a .277 130 ballistic tip vaporize on the shoulder of a 125 lb sow many years ago. Impact velocity was in the 'hood of 3100 and not directly on bone. A hand size area of hide and flesh was gone with no penetration into the vital area. A head shot finished her off but that pig would have run and possibly lived. The shot was akin to a bullet destructing when hitting a steel target. Last NBT I ever used on game other than varmints.

That is a good question Flinch. I am usually hunting with the guy on a regular basis, but moved away about a year and a half ago, or else I would have seen it first hand.

He swears by it, and will continue to use it. As said before, it dropped the deer in its tracks. I was just making the observation that the bullet didnt penetrate, that's all.

I am appreciating other's experiences here at the campfire, and the knowledge they have learned during their experiences.

joe

I dont think so, I had a clean view of his vitals. The shoot wasnt rushed or anything. I had snuck up to some round bails and was shooting over the top of them and he was on a slight elevation in the field.

Im sure every manufacture has had a bullet fail to perform at one time or another. I have switched to Barnes since this incident, although im looking at the bergers now due to the higher BC's. At least with Barnes, worst case scenario of a bullet failing to perform leaves you with a soild.

jolintaxidermy,

My guess is that the large entrance hole was not caused by the bullet expanding right there, but by bone being blown back out through the skin when the bullet did expand. This is based on seeing a LOT of VLD's used on big game, including shooting into bone, and doing a bunch of autopsies--NOT theory.

Since you weren't there, and your friend didn't really analyzed what happened, I would say my experience is more valid than the photo. I have seen MUCH larger entrance holes from Barnes TSX's, including one from a 140-grain .270 on a coyote--which did NOT "explode" on impact.

All a large entrance hole proves is that SOMETHING made a big hole where the bullet went in, not that the bullet blew up or over-expanded.

I would like to see what a 130 gr.VLD would do @ 3400 + fps
out of my 270 WBY magnum.
AMRA

So far with bergers, I've not seen anything otehr than caliber size entrance....

I shot 6 last year, my first year with bergers, and the entrance holes were tough to find actually. Critters just tumbled over though.

Only three mule deer so far w/115 gr VLD's from my .25-06 Rem 700. All dropped at the first shot, one required a finishing shot as the first shot was from above and shattered the spine, then exited out the side of the chest. Dropped that deer instantly of course.

175 yards, 230 yards and 400 yards. Only mule deer, not elk. So far I'm very pleased with the accuracy and instant effects.

Wicked on coyotes too...

How's your shoulder recovering?

Bullets do NOT knock animals, or move them. It's a simple rule of physics. The animal reacting to the hit (kicking up, back, forward or whatever) is what many guys think is a result of the bullet energy, and it isn't. If you hit them with a bowling ball at 2,000 fps, then maybe the critter will move, but not with any bullet. Good story though. I like clean quick kills. Flinch

You knocked the bait off my hook.

Here's an example of what Flinch and Mule Deer have described. This was a Buck that I shot a few years ago in thick timber with the old Barnes X bullet 150gr, 270win. He presented a neck shot at around 40 yds when he stopped briefly, framed between 2 trees. He DRT, dead instantly and you're looking at the entrance wound. My assumption was that the bullet must have hit a small tree limb before impact. I never entertained the idea that this superficial appearing wound was the result of bullet blow-up. I guess Muledeer's point about bone being blown back through the skin is also a possibility.

.................Well then,,,,give `em a try. Won`t know until you try them.

........Muley........Just now got off the phone with Rod (tech staff) at Berger.

For all "hunting" VLD bullets to effectively do their job, Berger recommends bullet impact speeds from 1800 fps (the absloute minimum) up to 3000 fps (maximum) at the most. Preferably according to Rod, 2800 to 2850 fps at impact would be the better maximum to insure that a VLD won`t blow up upon impact.

So if you want to use the 190 VLDs on elk, you are going to have to tone down that 300 RUM? of yours,,:D,,for the shorter ranged elk kills.

Gees! 3400 fps with a 190 gr VLD?.......Hells bells!....On my last elk hunt, my little 300 WSM Ruger compact using the 190 "hunting" VLD at approx 2840 fps MV at altitude with RL17 took a big bull elk at 328 yards. DRT through thickest part of the right shoulder bone with bullet fragmentation found below the hide on the opposite side. Massive internal damage.

Tough to find entrance holes? Caliber size, but go right where the crosshairs were when the gun went off and just brush the hair back a bit,never found one hard to find.

I've still yet to tumble one with a berger but they don't go far. Except those crainial shots..... One of the last took the ball joint of the onward shoulder out, heart toast, and managed 70 ish yards and flopped around on the ground for about a minute.

Rost495, By hard to find, I mean it wasn't possible to find the hole in the hide with a quick search. Skinned it out and this is the entrance wound under the hide. Literally could use the meat right next to the wound for first 2 to 3".



That bruise is about quarter sized and you can just make out the entrance hole in the middle of it.

I have to admit. I was pretty upset at a few here, for what I interpret as being a bit "personal" in their response to my comments, when I explicitly said, "my opinion".

So, today that got me thinking...

I figured, with comments people made in response to my comment, there could only be 2 reasons for this:

1. These people recieve benefits from this company for marketing their product, or...

2. This must have been hashed out previously.

So, I did a search. This was the first time I have ever researched this topic in the campfire. My comments the other day were in reference to an experience, and included pictures. I do not shoot these bullets, and have never read anything in the campfire from previous conversations.

Hmmm...seems others feel the same way.

CloudClimber (original post),

You asked for information on VLD bullets, and since you brought this up in the "Elk Hunting" forum, and even mentioned Elk in your post, I figured, or assumed you were looking for information in reference to using VLD's for hunting elk.

Here are some other threads on VLD's that I came up that discussed these bullets on the campfire. Some good, some bad. You read, and make a decision on that.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3524283/1

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1521162/1

The thread above contains an article in it. Pretty interesting read.

Mule Deer,

on the 4th page of the thread, top post, You write:

"Then you did not read the article very closely. While noting that some people had killed elk with VLD's, and quite handily, I suggested that we were pushing the envelope on 400-pound red stags. I also stated that they are best used on deer-sized game, in which category I'd place caribou. In fact, their extremely high BC would make them a fine caribou bullet, helping a lot in the wind.

My reservation in using them for caribou hunting would be the odd grizzly encounter. Indeed that would be a reservation about them for much hunting. I drew a ewe bighorn tag this year, and in the part of Montana I'll be hunting there are grizzlies, so the rifle will not be charged with VLD's. They would not be my choice as a bear bullet, or indeed an elk bullet for the kind of elk hunting I normally do. But I do plan to use them for some pronghorn and deer hunting this fall."

CloudClimber, in his initial post, asks information on VLD bullets, in an Elk forum (assuming to use on Elk), and instead of answering him with your opinion (above) you go after me as if I am an idiot for posting an experience my friend had, and provided a picture of as well, knowing good and well that other people have had similar experiences.

Like those have said about VLD's, that got a bit under my skin..

Again, I am sure VLD's will work 85% of the time. You can tell me all day about the many animals that were taken with them. My opinion is that there are other bullets out there that will work 95% of the time. That was my point from the beginning, but once I felt it got personal, I got a bit heated.

Here is another good read:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/berger-bullet-failure-short-range-51277/index4.html

and, if anybody would like some "scientific" information, on actual tests done, Barnes included VLD's in their study. Some will say it is skewed, but they could have a lawsuit on their hands if they were lying.

I am not a Barnes employee, or have ever received benefits from Barnes. Just research. I will take this "scientific" information over what someone says a bullet will do after it hits something the first "inch and a half".

Here are the tests:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/lab-tests/

just my $.02....

joe

3307 fps average with a healthy dose of RL-25, NOT 3400. I apologize. I'm still real aprehensive about what would happen in a close range situation. Like the old saying, If it sounds too good to be true..... mtmuley

Well said Jolintaxidermy....

I guess I was being snippy and saying, I've only seen caliber size entry with TSX and Barnes. But they are not hard to find. Its taken me like 5 seconds to find the entry, but mostly because you rake the hair back in the area you aimed at and presto, there is a caliber size hole. ITs not like it dissappeared or got smaller or something. Most every berger I've shot into game that was not a head shot, looks just like yours. The exit holes have varied some, but I use the target and not the hunting version and am VERY happy so far.

Of course if it has to get done, and done right, every last time, its Barnes not Berger

Great points, jolintaxidermy.

Does anyone here have the UNS number for the jackets on these VLD hunting bullets?

What about the antimony numbers for the core on the Bergers?

With such a narrow recommended velocity band for acceptable terminal performance, some may suspect components could be on the soft side.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...g-vlds-so-successful-eric-stecker-43447/

This is a response by Berger to the Barnes test, if you want to read more "scientific" data.

jolin,

Thanks for doing a search and seeing what other experience is out there.

I have never claimed any bullet is perfect, and much prefer the data from a number of animals. That was my main point.

The great bullet debates still amaze. You can kill almost any animal with almost any bullet made. Premium bullets are not needed if you hit the animal well. Stuff just is not that hard to kill.

Great photo, Moosemuncher, thanks for posting that. A picture is worth 1,000 words, especially on the internet.

kup-
The Berger hunting bullet appears to have a soft-core with a relatively thin jacket.

We have done that design already. What sets this design apart and makes it a great hunting bullet?

No one is disputing the bullets accuracy.

But, the single gelatin photo showing delayed expansion is most likely an anomaly. And, if it is not the 'norm', it further exposes the bullets inconsistent performance.

How is this projectile any different in terminal performance than any other thin-jacketed bullet?

Please explain what puts this hunting bullet right up there with the provens.

Lastly, is "most of the time" bullet performance acceptable to you when pulling the trigger on a big game animal?

Unless you run into something like an SGK that fails to expand.... or other once in a lifetime issues...
And unless you have to take a hard angular shot. Though the way I see the berger frag up, hitting guts could kill the animal right there.... guts seem really susceptible to shock for some reason.

Of course when it counts, when I can't or won't pass the only shot given, it'lll be barnes

I'm not a Barnes user, but will reach for them faster than the Bergers, for which I have little use.Maybe varmints...

The breathless accounts of game withering to the shot from the Berger (like it's something "new" or "unique"),is amusing.Been watching it for years,so I don't know what the big deal is...

Course then again shooting BG animals at really LR holds no particular fascination for me. YMMV.

I DO like shooting at rocks!

How many times have we read "At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail"?

That 'head in the sand' response seems to be the norm whenever someone expresses a concern with their bullets terminal performance.

A bullet can fail and still bring game to bag.

Fragile bullets have been known to come apart before they even reach the target. With that given, I would state it is possible for a bullet to prematurely expand in contact with a big game animal.

Just my opinion, but I thought the coyote shot with the Barnes bullet brought very little to the discussion.

Interesting thread. I may have to try some Bergers this year. I just never run across them in gun stores down here, and about the only bullets that I ever order on the net are ABs for my 9.3s...

A good way to look at this for shots under 500 yards (which would be "most") is the long-for-caliber high BC Berger vs. a light-for-caliber TTSX at 3-400 fps faster, with absolutely no worries about the 50-yard shot in the shoulder.

MikeWerner,

The photo of delayed expansion is not an anomaly. It happens over and over and over again with Berger VLD's, both in test media and on animals. I have seen it many, many times, and it IS what makes VLD's different from other super-expanding bullets. If you have proof to the contrary, then I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

The example of entrance hole on the coyote with the TSX was to show that the size of an ENTRANCE HOLE (or any other exterior result from a hunting bullet) has nothing to do with what the bullet does INSIDE the animal--which is where the vital organs are. Or maybe you're one of those people who never guts their own animals, so makes all sorts of inferences from the entrance and exit holes.

I am not somebody who believes that VLD's (or TSX's, or Woodleighs, or Sierra Gamekings, or whatever) are THE ANSWER to hunting bullets. Instead I am a professional gun writer who tries lots of hunting bullets, and often enough to find out what is normal behavior for that particular bullet, rather than extrapolating from "examples of one." (Which us exactly what somebody on this thread did--and from an animal that he didn't even see shot, much less shoot himself.)

I don't really give a FF what bullet you use. I have no stake in Berger--or Nosler, Barnes, Woodleigh, Sierra, Hornady, etc. etc. But I do give a damn about reporting what happens, and so tend to get a little peeved when internet dip-brains with no experience with a particular subject start spouting off.

In response to the "over and over and over" proof of the delayed expansion, please give a definite percentage in the test you are referring to. Please post a link as well.

I honestly did not come here to offend any gun-writers, gun-writer-goupies, or even cable-show-groupies.

And, please pardon my post count. I prefer to actually experience the outdoors in my limited spare time.

Some of your posts have been very offensive recently.

To those so anxious to proclaim I do not have the experience in the field or at the reloading bench......please convince my lovely wife of 26 years.

Mike, my wife thinks I'm a hero too.

I just need someone to convince her that the 'time spent' is normal.

MikeWerner,

Okay, I apologize over my slightly over-the-top post. But I do tend to get offended when somebody makes a crack like, "Just my opinion, but I thought the coyote shot with the Barnes bullet brought very little to the discussion."

I also get really weary of the many discussions on the Campfire that seem to produce VERY firm opinions from people who have zero or little experience with the subject. Probably the three subjects that do this, every time, are Berger VLD's, using .22 centerfires on deer, and elk rifles, cartridges and bullets.

One of the reason I tend to get a little peeved about Berger threads is that the debate has gone on a lot before, and the way they work has been described many times. I published an article in HANDLOADER a few years ago about a trip to New Zealand to specifically test VLD's, because NZ has so many feral animals that allow plenty of shooting. We not only shot dozens of animals, but autopsied quite a few, until the delayed expansion got so boring that we quit. Oh, I also tested their penetration on bones by shooting into the shoulders of big feral goats at very close range, after the goats were dead. The VLD's penetrated every time. You can probably find a link to that article if you do a search on the Campfire.

VLD's have also been tested over and over again in The Bullet Test Tube, a wax-based medium developed by my friend Richard Mann. Their performance in Test Tubes pretty much exactly matched their performance in the animals we autopsied in New Zealand.

Since then I have used VLD's on big game here in Montana and other western states, because I do like their performance for certain kinds of hunting. They have always acted exactly the same. In fact the two bullets I've used that are most consistent in the way they expand are Barnes TSX's and Berger VLD's, which operate at opposite ends of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that one is "right" and one is "wrong," just that they work differently.

Yeah, you're right. Some of my recent posts have been offensive, probably because they were meant to be. I don't react that way often, partly because you have to be pretty thick-skinned to be a writer whose opinion appears on newstands several times a month. But eventually I can get riled, especially on a thread like this.

ok...saw the "over the top" comment...

joe

Mike

The bergers I have used so far continue to amaze me. I have yet to use the hunting version because of some exit holes I"ve seen pictures of, but I have now shot about 4 bucks and a handful of pigs and javelina in the shoulder just to see, although only from a 308, and 185s, the bullets have done perfectly at doing caliber entry, and quarter size or so exits. Pretty good damage between the two holes too.

One can only assume I'd see more bang flops using the hunting version. BUT OTOH I rarely shoot bone and IMHO bang flops generally have nothing to do with the bullet and all about shot placement. One day I'll get brave and swap to the hunting version just to shoot some pigs and such and see... but I really don't expect bang flops from rib shots.

I will say that the berger damages the shoulder meat much more than the TSX does especially on the exit side.
That being said I have been pleasantly surprised the bullets do much LESS damage than the old and even some of the new ballistic tip types.

Those needing a bang flop though should still, regardless of bullet choice, should concentrate on CNS or high shoulder shots(same difference really as you are shooting for the spine but calling it a shoulder shot)

As to percentages of the animals I"ve shot that the bullet doesn't open until inside about 3-4 inches... 110% so far. And while if you hit a shoulder knuckle joint wiht a BT, it starts blowing up right there, the berger continues to penetrate for some reason before opening.

I had an interesting discussion with a Hornady tech who basically told me the following:this is the list of toughest-most weight retention to the least in their lineup, Gmx, best for elk, interbond, interlock of which the SST is one, and not to be used for game but generally for target shooting the amax. Unfortunately the gmx is only 139gr in 7mm which I view as kinda light for the caliber.

The Berger rep said that the hunting vld is made to be effective form 2500-1800fps and was designed optimally for long and very long range. That the tv show Best of the West hunters routinely get elk with the vld out to 1000 yards. He also mentioned that with around 40% wt. retention with a 168gr 7mm pill that you would still have a mass of lead of 70gr doing a lot of damage. My only real concern would be if you did not execute well and hit directly on the shoulder. thanks for all of the responses.

I did take a 670# Moose 2 years ago with a .308, shooting a 180 nosler partition at 300 yards. It hit behind the shoulder with the moose almost broadside. The bullet was recovered with over half its weight in the neck, you could see where the bullet hit the inside on the opposite shoulder and riccoched up the neck, it jumped straight up flipped over and died, not even one step. As you can surmise with my vld quest I am looking for a higher bc bullet for hunting out west.

I totally sympathize with your dilemna on giving your experienced opinions. Since the Jim Zumbo fiasco, I have never understood why any writer would ever give their opinion outside of contractual obligation.

It is just a no-win situation.

As far as the comment concerning the coyote and the Barnes bullet, I will admit it was made to initiate response. But, somehow the posts eventually turn these into Berger VS Barnes threads. I didn't see the relevance of a Barnes bullet (used on a coyote) in a VLD thread on the Elk Hunting forum. But again, unfortunately, I used it to get a response.

rost,

I suspect that if you try the hunting VLD's you will experience more instant kills from lung shots. My experience is also that even if the animal doesn't go down instantly to a lung shot, it will go down quicker, on average, than with any other bullet I've used.

Even the guides in New Zealand became VLD converts, and very quickly, especially for goats. Feral goats are considered among hardest-to-drop big game animals by most people who shoot them. The outfitter took one look at a VLD round and told us we had absolutely the wrong bullet, that what we needed was a heavy round-nose with lots of lead showing. But by the end of the second day all the Kiwis were saying the VLD was the best goat bullet they'd ever seen.

In fact, the first goat shot with a pure, broadside lung shot was a big black billy that my wife Eileen took at around 150 yards. It collapsed instantly and rolled down the slope, which is apparently almost unheard of when shooting goats. And that was with a 115-grain from a .257 Roberts at around 2950 fps. Very quick kills was typical, whether on 150-200 pound goats or 400-pound red stags. In fact the biggest stag was also killed with a 115 from a .257, at 200 yards. The shot was placed a little too far to the rear of the rib cage, getting the liver and the rear of the lungs. The stag barely managed to hobble 15 feet before falling over.

The reason for the quick kills is massive internal damage. VLD's tear up innards more than any other bullets I've ever seen. They don't just punch big holes through organs, they rip them apart. My stag was shot with a 185-grain from a .30-06 at 250 yards. The bullet literally turned the heart into a flap of flesh about a foot long. The stag was bedded down and never rose to his feet, instead just tipping his head back briefly, then rolling down the mountain.

.................M/Deer`s above post sums things up pretty good. Many are apprehensive about using the hunting VLDs just because they were deemed or defined as a match bullet. And then from there, other false assumptions and analysis are made by the very same folks who haven`t tried them, of which Mule Deer has stated, is typical on any VLD thread.

Defintions can sometimes be little mis-leading imo. Just because the term "match" bullet was given and used, doesn`t mean that another use could not be discovered; mainly a hunting use, as was in the case of the VLD.

But that conventional `ol school thinking; such as, that a bullet "must" have good weight retention, give complete pass throughs when possible for a good blood trail "just in case" the game needs to be tracked, and other characteristics associated with the more conventional bullets, still remains within many hearts that will never change.

When these VLD threads pop up, all we successful VLD users can do, is simply offer up our experience and then those interested in using the VLD on their next hunt can either use them or use another bullet.

From my experience on many hogs and on one bull elk, the VLD is the most lethal, devastating, and/or the fastest killing, no tracking (time saving) hunting bullet that I have ever used.

48 to 0 so far,,,,,,,,,,,,in favor of the 168s, the 175s, and the 190 gr "hunting" VLDs.

I"m slow to change I admit... since the barnes has worked flawlessly in EVERY last situation I've used them. Could not say the same for partitions which I walked away from to barnes after a few situations, dead animals, but I could see they would not do in a bind... results...

I will eventually try the hunting version I assume, but right now I"m having WAY better luck with the target ones than I ever thought possible, why ruin that record....

As to instant kills, I could say that pure speed would do the same too at times... but I seriously doubt a just more explosive bullet would do better EXCEPT if a fragment or bone fragment hit or stunned or severed the spine. I do know that the deer etc.... I"ve used the bergers on have not gone very far at all typically, and usually very wobbly along the way. The bullets do work very well in that aspect.

In my 7x300 wtby I'm still trying to get it to shoot good enough with a douglas tube, but I will start the high vel stuff with 180 targets first... then I"ll risk a few does to the non target and see what gives... IF I ever get it to shoot.

I'll say this though in defense of speed and barnes.... my buddy just got a 257 wtby... I'm running 100 ttsx in it... have yet to see a deer flop, but haven't seen one run more than about 35 yards either.

Jeff

I have only seen 2 big bull elk shot with 168 gr 7mm VLDs. All three bullets were recovered just under the far side skin and were about 50-60% retained weight. There certainly was no indication of violent/rapid expansion, although the internal wound channels were remarkably large. Unfortunately both bulls were shot right at dark, so photos/post mortem were not possible.

Two animals is not much of a sample, but it is infinitely bigger than none, which appears the basis upon which some people are basing their opinions.

And before someone says "since the bullets didn't exit, that means they were inadequate...", the next to last bull I shot was hit with 2 210 gr TTSX out of a 338 Win Mag--both those bullets were found under the farside hide. Just like the Bergers (although the Barnes were 100% retained weight.)

Actually, the 1800 to 3000 fps range is a fairly large range compared to a lot of other bullets. The vast majority of bullets aren't expected to expand below 1900 to 2000 fps, including most cup-and-core bullets, and I wouldn't expect a cup-and-core to do well above 3000 fps. I also don't know that you could get Barnes to recommend an impact velocity as low as 1800 fps for the vast majority of their bullets. If you want to have an impact velocity envelope from 1800 fps to more than 3000 fps, you don't have many bullets to consider - Nosler Partitions, Accubonds, and perhaps E-tips and a few of the Barnes TSXs. When I talked with someone at Hornady he said the SSTs should be good down to around 1600 fps, but I don't think I would try an SST at above about 2900 fps impact velocity.

jolintaxidermy �

It�s pretty clear you�re just a dumb hick from Des Moines that doesn�t know squat.

Don�t you know that, since you didn�t pull the trigger yourself, you can�t learn anything of value from your friend�s experience or negative stories you read online? That the photo and any conversations you�ve had with your friend are completely worthless? That VLDs are THE bullet to use?

At least that appears be the implication from some of the people here that think you should learn from THEIR experiences...

I think you are smarter than that and I agree � and like you have taken heat for daring to suggest the VLDs are not a bullet I would care to use.

I am more than willing to concede the VLDs probably work as advertised, penetrating a couple inches and then flying to flinders, just like a big varmint bullet - which, by the way, is exactly the reason I won�t use them.

My own preference is toward bullets that hold together, provide reliable but controlled and limited expansion, and penetrate deeply. That, of course, is blasphemy to some, especially if it means using more expensive bullets. My favorites are the North Fork and Trophy Bonded bullets, which have worked on deer and elk equally well, even on shots that required substantially more penetration than Berger claims the VLDs can offer. (Of course some would suggest I can�t really know anything about the Trophy Bonded because my hunting buddy uses them � even though I�ve seen how they work I haven�t pulled the trigger on one myself.)

By the way, jo, I�m just another dumb hick from Iowa � lived there until I was in my mid twenties and called Des Moines home for the last ten of that. Still have family there.

Don�t know why you wouldn�t use a standard cup and core above 3,000fps? What is the worst that could happen � they�d fly apart like a Berger is advertised to do?

Funny picture but hardly analogous. The cartoon shows an incredible leap in technology but the Berger VLDs offer nothing of the sort. Rather more of a step backwards in my opinion. A bullet that flies apart after 2-3� of penetration? Nothing new there, the 162g Hornady BTSP I shot my first elk with back in the early 1980�s did exactly that. It was a broadside to the chest, with calculated impact velocity around 2800fps and retained weight of 47.7%, well within the advertised performance range of the Berger VLDs. Such bullets can be highly effective on well-placed shots, but they are not what I want in the tube when more penetration is required.

My own opinion is the Berger VLDs are little more than over-hyped, thin-skinned, cup-and-core bullets with a high BC. In my .22-250 it seems to me that the more explosive 40g BT�s have killed coyotes noticeably faster than the 52g Match HP bullets. Why? Because they blow up faster and tend to create more damage, often without an exit but sometimes blowing a softball-sized hole out the far side. (I�ve only killed about 77 coyotes, though, so maybe I need more experience.) The Berger VLDs are constructed more like the 52g Match HP�s and, like them, penetrate a bit deeper before coming apart - so maybe my references to the VLDs as heavy varmint bullets are somewhat in error.

BTW, I typo�d my previous post - the one I was responding to specified a hesitance to use SST (i.e. standard cup and core) bullets at 2900fps, not 3000fps. I agree with the sentiment, but, like VLDs, would expect them to work reliably on most shots I have taken. With North Fork, MRX, TTSX and others, 3,000 fps is not an upper limit that I worry about, nor is expansion at 1800fps a concern.

As long as other bullets work reliably for me on animals from antelope to elk, as the North Fork, MRX, TTSX and others do, I�ll pass on the VLDs for hunting purposes.

Reasonable and valid points, Coyote Hunter.

The VLD Hunter really brings nothing new to the table but exceptional cable-show marketing.

..........Yep! Call the Bergers VLDs what you may boys, but I`ll stand by my end results rather than opinions by those who for the most part (and just like John Barnsess stated), have not used them themselves, and who don`t plan on using them. Great little cartoon btw in trying to associate the VLDs as uncapable. Ain`t workin boys!

The Bergers simply use a different concept of killing. A different concept that you cannot or will not accept.

They shoot good they have high BCs and kill stuff. I ignore the naysayers with nay experiance. BTW I usually get exit wounds even with bergers, but I usually shooot heavy for caliber bullets. A monometal or even bonded bullet is not needed for deer. I will say that I really like the light for caliber TTSXs in smaller calibers running hot for short range hammering of stuff.
It is funny that I see some guys hammering on the bergers, who have no qualms about shooting deer with an a-max or SMK.

I'm with the bigsqueeze.

Bergers are frangible but they penetrate much deeper than any other frangible bullet. I've been shooting Bergers into elk, deer, and antelope for the past 3 or 4 years and trust them much more than I would Nos Ballistic tips, A-Maxs, SSTs, or (god forbid) Sierra Game Kings.

The premium bullets, Accubonds, Sciroccos, Interbonds, Barnes, etc., are good stuff and they definitly offer reliable expansion and deep penetration but, unless I was sporting a monster magnum, I would no way trade you a Berger for a Barnes at 750+ yards. The Bergers will have much more velocity at extreme distances and are soft enough to expand reliably. Barnes are great for shorter shots but have a bad reputation for low BCs and being too hard to provide reliable expansion at low velocities. Sciroccos, Accubonds, and Interbonds are probably more likely to expand at lower velocities but they don't buck the wind like the Bergers and so are much harder to control at extreme distances.

Bergers might not be the End-All Be-All for hunting bullets. But when you're talking about taking big game at 700+ yards, they're very close.

I ran the .284 140s at 3175 for a couple of deer and a lope. Pretty salty on smaller animals, but explosive. I had one come to pieces on a 160lb deer, but the pieces did make it to the off side. Softer than NBTs, but good enough to kill stuff. Can't comment on the heavier VLDs, but they'd definitely be on the bottom of my list for elk bullets.

The VLD �concept� really isn�t any different, just marketed differently. Standard cup-and-core hunting bullets have a thicker jacket and also penetrate a bit before expanding, but run them fast enough at impact and you get pretty much the same effect as Berger advertises for the VLDs �they shed most of their weight as shrapnel. With hits to the chest cavity, the result is often and perhaps usually an animal that goes straight down. No problem there.

That said, my concern is not with what happens when things go as planned � most any bullet will work in such circumstances � but what happens when things go badly. Berger advertises about 18� of penetration with the VLDs. There are times when that simply is not enough. In 2007 I had the misfortune of having a buck step forward and turn just as the trigger broke. What had been an easy quartering away shot suddenly became a hit low to the right ham. The vitals were much more than 18� from the entrance wound. The 140g North Fork I was using didn�t care - the buck dropped so fast it was on the ground before I could recover from the recoil. The North Fork was recovered from up against the sternum.

In my experience, such straight down results are pretty typical with the North Forks, with both deer and elk. The problem I have with Berger VLDs is they can�t perform any better than what I am currently using unless the game starts dropping before the shot, but VLDs can easily fail to measure up when things go bad, as occasionally happens. How would a Berger, with its advertised 18� of penetration have worked on the buck? No one can know for sure but the advertised 18� penetration doesn�t give me any warm fuzzies when it was over twice that to the sternum. When I shot that buck I had a bull tag in my pocket � what if the circumstances had been the same except that the animal was a bull? I�ve seen bulls badly wounded in the hind quarter (and the front, for that matter) easily outdistance the hunters that shot them. Thanks, but no thanks.

shooting 7 mm Rem mag using H1000 powder Have shot three cow elk over last three seasons with 168 gr bullets. Closest was 275, then two close to 400. Two went down on high shoulder shots and one ran 50 yards after lung shot. White tail bucks ran no more than 50 yards at about 350 yard shots. I am anxious to try the 140 gr on deer next fall. Cant say I have spent much time looking for bullets but my meat cutter has given me some fragments a time or two.Some of my friends are going long yardage shots with 30 cal bergers and one elk down this fall at 670 yards.He was using the Huskema system . On paper he claims he has grouped 5 shots in 7 inches at 700 yards. Personally I am too nevous to try over 450 but these guys are seasoned shooters.

..................I understand the penetration aspect of things in what you are talking about. As I stated earlier on this thread, the VLDs, with a well placed shot, are very capable of killing game including elk that are quartering to or quartering away in the neighborhood of 30-35 degrees max with considerable vitals damage.

I would rather take my chances using the VLDs, wait for a good shot angle, having a higher percentage or better odds that my quarry will drop sooner, or better yet, drop as a DRT, as opposed to the chances of doing alot of tracking after the shot using a more conventional bullet. Especially when time is short and getting close to dark or is dark, I dislike tracking game in any terrain.

I`ve seen, heard, and read that on a few occasions, about hunters going back the next morning to again track and find their game because they couldn`t find the animal the day before. That btw, has happened to me on two occasions.

You have your reasons why you say "no thanks" to the VLDs, and I too have my reasons for my "no thanks" when it comes to using most conventional bullets, of which btw, I have used just about all of them for hunting over many years.

Of the 48 hogs and the one bull elk I have killed using the 30 cal VLDs, I haven`t had to track any of them.

So while the VLDs lack penetration given certain shot angles, I`ll opt to patiently "wait" for a better shot angle, resulting in little to no tracking after the shot.

Regardless of the bullet brand, no animal is predictable after bullet impact. But I`d be willing to lay some serious dollars down on the table, that if given the same game (elk on down), shot from the same distances with the same caliber and roughly the same bullet weight, shot at a 30 degree angle or less, and given the exact same shot placement into the animal, my money will be on the VLDs to effectively drop the animals faster along with having reduced running yardages after the impact the majority of the time.

If such an experiment could be carried out using all bullet brands for comparison, I`ll bet on and take the VLDs.

�30-35 degrees max � is the rub for me, or at least one of them. That buck I mentioned above started out with that kind of shot. Because it moved as the trigger broke, the angle ended up being more like 80 degrees off perpendicular. The 7mm 140g North Fork I was using penetrated from ham to sternum and did a lot of damage inside the chest cavity. I�ve been taken to task by people who say such things don�t happen very often, and at least in my case that is true � this was the first time since I started hunting big game in 1982. Nevertheless I would rather be prepared for such an event than not � which means I choose my bullets accordingly.

We are in complete agreement on this except for the choice of bullet. I work hard for broadside shots and have passed on many animals when such an opportunity didn�t materialize. Since 2002 when I first used a North Fork, I�ve taken 7 elk total, 4 with the North Forks. Three of those have dropped straight down, one struggled 25 yards before piling up, no tracking necessary.

That happened with my buddy once as well � a Grand Slam through the neck after I had cautioned against such a shot. The cow made it 120 yards, maybe more, and we didn�t find it until the next morning. Not a happy experience.

I�m good with that � a person should use what they are comfortable with.

See above. The longest I�ve waited for a good shot was 6 hours, but sometimes a broadside or good quartering shot just doesn�t happen.


You may be right, but what happens when things go south and the �30 degree angle or less� turns into something more like 80 degrees off perpendicular, as happened with my buck? I simply prefer bullets that work well under a wider variety of circumstances. Since 2002 that has primarily meant North Fork and Barnes TTSX and MRX for me and they have yet to disappoint - with most game going straight down. Don�t know how a VLD could drop game any faster, but maybe with a slo-mo camera and a stopwatch�

Guess we�ll have to agree to disagree on this, which is fine. I do, by the way, appreciate your civil discourse on the subject.

Coyote......................Well! No guarantees in life and no guarantees for absolutely perfect hunts on every hunt.

There are tradeoffs, advantages and disadvantanges, in and with mostly everything.

Most conventional bullets have the capability to drop game instantly or having a DRT kill depending on the animal and how it reacts. The VLDs do more internal damage than your North Forks, Barnes and many other conventional bullets. That`s why the VLDs have the capability to drop game faster a greater percentage of the time given the same shot placement.

Notice that I didn`t say all the time. Every animal is different. One hit from a VLD and the animal may run 100 yards after impact, while the same animal may drop instantly with a Barnes or North Fork.

But, I`d still bet on the VLDs to drop game faster with less scampering distance after impact, the greater percentage of the time.

Playing the overall percentages.

[/quote]

The VLD �concept� really isn�t any different, just marketed differently. Standard cup-and-core hunting bullets have a thicker jacket and also penetrate a bit before expanding, but run them fast enough at impact and you get pretty much the same effect as Berger advertises for the VLDs �they shed most of their weight as shrapnel.
[/quote]

Coyote Hunter, I have shot many/most 25 caliber bullets into the Bullet Test Tube and the VLD bullet is the only one that did not start expanding upon impact. Will try to find the picture, but IIRC the VLD penetrated about 2.5 inches before expanding.

Not arguing which is better, just arguing that in my testing, the VLD did act differently than any other bullet that I tested in regards to its delayed expansion.

That was from a .25-06 at 100 yards.

(NBT, NAB, HIB, TSX, GS Custom, NP, SAF, TBBC, VLD were the bullets I can remember using in the tests)

I have shot one deer raking further than your 30-35 degree angle example. I can not recall if it was a 168 or 180 7mm berger that entered the front shoulder and exited the flank just creasing the offside ham. Sorry I do not have more experiance with them on raking shots but I am not prone to taking THS.

I do get exits with bergers where on similar shots with 162SSTs I do not get exits.

If you have plans of shooting something far enough away that the impact velocity would be below 2000 fps with a Barnes bullet, you should talk with someone at Barnes to make sure the particular Barnes bullet you are using would have sufficient expansion at the minimum impact velocity you would attempt. Just a word to the wise, and that applies to any manufacturer's bullets. I've communicated with Barnes and Hornady myself and have seen published info about Nosler bullets and Berger VLDs.

As I read all this, I reflected back to when I started hunting. .30-06 stoked with 180 grain Core-Lokts. My Dad bought my brother and I one box per season. Check zero, and hunt deer, elk and antelope. Gophers usually got the leftovers. Man, I put a lot of critters on their lips with that combo. I remember they never ran far, I never lost one and they died. I didn't give a rat's ass about BC, velocity, energy or wound channels. I pointed that rifle, pulled the trigger and filled the freezer. NOW, I bet not one poster on this thread, myself included, would give that bullet a second thought. Interesting. mtmuley

your are right mtmuley all this new thec. has spoiled us and has lead us to want more and if something goes wrong we blame it on bullets .cal. or what ever but we for get the #1 thing to good hunting and fast kills ............... great marksmanship

You guys are obviously as happy with the VLDs as I am the North Fork, TTSX, MRX, and the Trophy Bonded my hunting buddy uses.

They work for you, as my choices do for me, and that is what's important.

CH,
I actually shoot bullets from most every bullet swager out there. Nearly all of them will kill stuff. I just cannot condemn any of them especially when my experiance with them contradicts most people's theories.

I don't condemn VLDs, just explaining why I don't choose to use them. The claimed advantage is they are supposed to put things down more quickly. Read the following and tell me how much more quickly the VLDs would have put things down.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._VLDS_or_NBT_love_um_or_hate#Post4925631

Many of the animals I�ve shot were on the ground before I could recover from the recoil of the shot. The fact is that had I been using VLDs you probably couldn�t tell the difference with a stopwatch. If you disagree I would like to hear it.

It is also a fact that there are a lot of reports of VLDs acting exactly as advertised � pretty much disintegrating and providing about 18� of penetration. Sometimes that isn�t enough when things go wrong. The North Forks and MRX I use have both gone end-to-end in mule deer, although in opposite directions, instantly dropping the animals straight down in both cases. I just don�t see any advantage in giving up that kind of penetration to use a bullet that might have a marginal advantage in the speed in which they put game on the ground.

Interesting......

There are no "different concepts of killing".

All bullets "kill" through the mechanical destruction of tissue and bone...how much tissue is destroyed is a function of their design/build characteristics,impact velocity,rate of expansion,and the medium into which they are fired.

A hunting bullets'first job is to penetrate,second to expand....no necromancy involved.

With soft tissue hits,no bullet "guarantees" DRT....anyone with any hunting experience knows this.

I have no problem with anyone using any bullet they have confidence in....but some stuff I have seen runs pretty contrary to "VLD" wisdom....at one point I had killed 12-13 head of game,pretty much consecutively, that were essentially "DRT"; using various calibers and weights of Bitterroots at pretty high velocity(of course as with all great things, the string eventually ended;I suspect it was as much dumb luck as well as a great bullet).

...this is a bullet that does NOT fragment...at all.....rather, it opens pretty rapidly to a very wide frontal area,holds that broad frontal area until it is stopped or exits;very high weight retention..barnes like...through passage through the animal....

There was plenty of damage,and very dead critters....to claim any of this as "old school" is.....utter nonsense....and demonstrates lack of experience

I have long suspected that this....not fragmentation...is what makes things like BT's and possibly VLD's...to kill quickly...rapid expansion to a broad frontal area within vitals,crushing them rapidly in an area around the wound channel,not shards of core and jacket...problem is we can't "see" this happen,and design characteristics of the bullet do not leave the evidence,because the bullet has been destroyed during its' journey....so we assume this fragmentation created the wound channel....maybe to some degree,but I suspect the bulk of damage is done by the broad face of the expanded frontal area and not by some grenade-like effect....but what do I know?

I have come to view claims of "magic" results with BG bullets about the same as promises of tax breaks from politicians....both claims can prove illusory..and unlikely to occur.Your notions may vary.....

double post

SMK's and Scenars have been doing the same thing for a long time..The thing I find funny, is a lot of VLD users bash Scenars and SMK's, as not being hunting bullets, I dont really understand how grown men get an emotional attachment to a damn bullet..The cult following of Barns and Bergers here on the campfire is amusing.I've used both, and continue to use them in certain guns.

As far as high BC bullets go for hunting, SMK's and Scenars are much easier to work with, IME.

..................Ok! I`ll rephrase! The VLD`s killing affects are different. But nevertheless, Berger`s VLD concept as to the WAY they kill, is different. There`s no damn magic in the VLDs. Nothing magical about them.

I judge the bullets I use which include the VLDs,,,,by the final end result. And by comparison, most conventional bullets, even though capable of DRT kills, are more `ol school and more traditional compared to the VLD way of killing game.

Given a well placed shot on any bull elk on the N/A continent and do so at a 30 degree angle or less, my money is on the VLD (of the proper bullet weight) to win every time.

Squeeze:Relax...I know they work because I believe Mule Deer and John Burns,both of whom say they are good in their niche. If I was able to go beyond 600 yards on a regular basis,I might try them myself.

........If you think the VLDs are good or only at their best beyond 600 yards, you just might want to re-consider that assessment. None of my kills using the VLDs have been beyond 328 yards.

I would never use a vld on game. They are way too accurate and create too big of a wound.

Bob,

If you ever run out of Bitterrots, the Norma Oryx works very similarly--and is usually VERY accurate as well.

I think what RobinNH was saying, is that he believe another bullet out performs the VLD, in the ranges he is planning on having shooting opportunities. Those high BC's really dont really start to shine until after 500, in my opinion. For what its worth, I will be using VLDs this fall and hope to gain some first hand knowledge on VLD performance from 80 or so to 600+. Those doe better be walking lite.

All bullets kill by the same method and BobinNH described the "way" very well

When in the hunting fields I prefer my "bergers" between 2 pieces of bread

...................Yep! And when in the hunting fields, my Berger VLDs guarantee "elk" burgers.

There are bullets with a better guarantee when after Elk burgers

.........Not really! Just because you happen to disagree with how the VLDs kill doesn`t mean they can`t or won`t. Elk vitals which need to be disrupted are located in the center and towards the front of the animal,,,not in the next county over.

Although not in the majority, many use the VLDs for elk. Imo, the better guarantee of success rests with the one pulling the trigger as opposed to the VLD.

I don't dissagree with how a VLD kills, since it kills just like all bullet kill.

A VLD doesn't allow enough penetration on all shot angle thus not giving as good of a guarentee as other bullets

The VLD went to sleep as a target bullet and woke up a hunting bullet with no other changes.

...........Kills like "ALL" bullets kill??? It certainly does not! Principles are the same but the affects are different.

My shot angles are patiently waited for. At shooting angles of about 30 degress and less, the VLDs will do just fine as my own experience qualifies that to be true.

Kills differently how? All of the bullets that I have ever used or seen used killed by massive blood loss or by taking out the central nervous system

What magic does the VLD use to "kill differently"

BobinNH has it down as to how a bullet kills

I think VLD's are great LONG RANGE hunting bullets as are the SMK's but as a general purpose normal hunt distance bullet, they are not my cup of tea. Stalking an Elk in thick cover in the snow is not my idea of place where I'd want a VLD, give a TTSX of TSX

That could be the problem, Bergers making burger........out of the front shoulder.

............I`ve used just about all bullets too. A few keep using that term "magic." There`s no magic when it comes to the VLD. It penetrates about 3" or so, through thick elk bone if necessary, and then moving into the animal, the VLD creates the most massive wound channels and vitals disruption you`d ever want to see, which "is not" the characteristic of most hunting bullets.

I wouldn`t necessarily or exactly equate massive blood loss with massive vitals disruption.

I am well aware of the damage created when a bullet comes unglued. You want to talk about damage inside you should see what a 300 grain SMK does inside and Elk chest cavity at about 150 yards. Not for the faint of heart, oh and no exit. They do the same thing to a deer under 300 yards, but when the range is beyond 300 yards they exit, eve on Elk

I have seen the same type of damage from the old cup and core bullets from the 60's and early 70's. I have also seen the VLD's used and they are a step back in history IMHO

I love the Berger VLD threads (along with .22's on big game, "killing power," adequate elk rifles, etc. etc.) because they always bring out the same people, who all claim they're not trying to change anybody's mind, but keep posting and posting and posting and posting....

...............That reminds me! Berger has their 338 caliber 300 gr VLD coming out? We`ll see how well it shoots from my 338-378 Bee. Yep! A reeeel step back allright!!

We have moved forward from standard cup and core the first step was the Partition, Bitteroot bonded core, A-Frame and TSX's and the AcuBond Bonded Cores, and now Berger brings us right back to cup and core.

YEA A REAL BREAK THROUGH ALL RIGHT ....

............Don`t care about what is considered a break thru and what is not. Results is what I care about.

My kill score card reads.......VLDs - 48,,,,,,,animals - 0

My score card says TSX 108, animals zero

Do you have a point?

.............The point is this. The VLDs work. If they didn`t I`d post as such. Yep! And my score card reads a couple of hundred using other bullets too.

We can keep going back and forth until the glaciers melt. Dislike them as you may, you cannot argue with success.

We just differ on how it can be achieved.

JB: Thanks....I have a ways to go yet....270 supply is getting low but still have plenty of 7MM,30,and 375's.....I mighta "overbought"....

Badley, yes that is what I am saying...just my personal view but from what little I can see the Bergers fill a niche "way out there".

I am not a LR hunter by todays standards,600 yards being the limit for routine practice,and since I have not been troubled by elk going anywhere, hit with the Partitions and BBC's I typically use, there is little reason for a changeup for me.

The 300 grain VLD and Hybrid Bergers have been out for a long time already..and basically flopped (pun intended). You cant shoot the 300 grain VLD to your 33-378's potential because of nose slump beyond 2900 fps. Supposedly they are going to correct this..I'll just use Scenars and SMK's, they got it right the first time..

I think it is funny when the VLD proponents recommend limiting shots to shallow angles and don�t want to discuss what happens when shallow angles turn into something else. Instead they simply want to dismiss the idea that such is a legitimate concern or they just ignore the question, neither of which is responsive. Ask the question repeatedly, as I have, and the silence is deafening.

Berger says 2-3� before expansion and maybe 14� after that. I believe them. You say (paraphrasing) one shouldn�t expect a VLD to �dent� the off-side ribs, and I believe you, too. Which simply means that the buck I shot in 2007, where an easy quartering away shot turned into a hit low in the right ham when the animal turned and stepped forward as the trigger broke, likely would have been badly wounded but VLD fragments likely wouldn�t have reached the diaphragm. I�ve seen enough three-legged animals outdistancing the hunter that shot them to know I don�t care to be in that situation. The North Fork I used was recovered from up against the sternum. A year later I put a MRX into the chest of a mule deer and it exited the rear. Both animals were on the ground in the blink of an eye so I fail to see how a VLD could have performed any better � and plenty or ways for a less than satisfactory ending on the first one.

Again, people are free to use what they want, I really don�t care. For the benefit of everyone, however, I do think the VLD proponents ought to have an honest discussion about what happens when things don�t go as planned and quit being non-responsive.

Coyote Hunter and all, I'm mighty impressed with the VLD's on mule deer - have only shot three with the Bergers - but I think for elk, bear and bigger critters I'll be sticking with Partitions, Accubonds or TSX bullets. Have used them in the past with success and my confidence in them is high. To me it makes sense to use the bigger tougher bullets on bigger tougher game.

FWIW, Guy

You mean like this.....
6.5mm 140g VLD at 3400fps.






dave

Nice entrance

Well stated.

I think I posted on this thread or the other thread going right now about my experience with a hard quartering to me whitetail buck. In through the shoulder exit through the flank/front of the opposite rear ham. From the mush that bullet made of that deer I think that a shot made from the opposite direction would have been just fine also. Bergers are not magic but they and they are frangible, but the resulting shrapnel is not pixie dust. The pieces carry enough weight for substantial penetration. I cannot help that all of the other animals that I have killed with Bergers have been more traditional broad side shots.

dave7mm-
Would you mind giving more details?

EddyBo �

I recall seeing that now that you mention it. I saw you are from �SW MS� and assumed it was a small deer, perhaps incorrectly. Just for the record (and it may be in your post), bullet diameter/weight/impact velocity?

Since you shot it from the front, I assume it went straight down, particularly given the damage you describe. My concern is more with shots quartering away, or worse, and more about elk than deer or antelope. (For the most part, I use the same loads for all three.)

According to VLD proponents:
1. Berger says not to expect more than 2-3� penetration before expansion and 14� after that.
2. Bigsqueeze, a VLD advocate, says you need to limit the angle to 30-35 degrees max and I think I�ve seen others suggest avoiding raking shots.
3. Bigsqueeze also reports Ray at Berger suggests 2850fps as the maximum impact velocity to prevent bullet blowup.
4. Mule Deer says the fragments often fail to dent the off-side ribs.
5. More than one (not you) refuses to address the issue of performance when deep penetration is needed, as with the buck I shot in 2007. (It could just as easily have been an elk.) Some refuse to admit the situation is a valid concern, others just refuse to address the issue at all.

You�ve undoubtedly seen the picture of the buck taken with a 140g 6.5mm at 3400fps, provided earlier in this thread. Lots of unnecessary meat damage there. If that was an exit wound I�m sure it dropped quickly. If it was a blow up on entrance, maybe not. I don�t run any hunting bullets that fast, but some of mine clock over 3200fps at the muzzle. Slowing them down to 2850fps, as Bigsqueeze says Berger suggests, means what � I get to choose between not taking shots inside 175 yards or ruining a front quarter?

I�m sure the VLDs work just fine on most chest shots, as there is too much evidence to support that conclusion for me to ignore it. The bullets I currently use also work well and I don�t worry about the angles should things go bad, or their velocity or ability to penetrate.

Coyote Hunter,

For me the VLD gives more advantages than any other design. The one drawback is it will not reliably penetrate a grass filled paunch on the way to the chest.

As long as you can see ribs and you hit ribs on a raking shot all will be well. If you must shoot at a departing animal then break the pelvis and finish with a second shot.

The benefits of the design far outweigh the drawbacks, for me.

Your aforementioned North Fork has way to low a BC for me to use as it severely restricts the bullets usefulness. There is no way I would give up 500yds of effective range to be able to shoot through the butt end of an animal on the way to the chest.

I have never had to shoot through a ham on the way to the chest but I regularly use the VLDs range advantage. We all have to make choices and if the butt to chest shot is important to a hunter he would be wise to choose a different bullet than the VLD.

I have taken a 500lb grizzly bear with a very strong raking shot on the first shot (He traveled 60yds and started swaying) and a directly going away shot with the second (DRT).

The VLD preformed perfectly for me in that instance, and in every other instance I have used it under.

I would recommend keeping muzzle velocity below 3300fps.

...............Well let`s see here!

I as a VLD advocate personally prefer limiting angled shots to no more than 30-35 degrees. Doesn`t mean that a few 45s cannot be taken.

So what if Berger recomends a low impact velocity of 1800 and a high of about 2850 fps and up to 3000 fps max. Many other bullet makers have some kind of recomended impact velocities for proper expansion so they can do what they do. Well Berger has their recos too! Berger did tell me by phone "In order to avoid a potential problem with the bullet blowing up from too much speed, they reco`d those maximum impact velocities." He did not say "that if 3000 fps was exceeded as an impact velocity, that the bullet "would" blow up before penetrating the 2" to 3" that the Bergers are supposed to do.

From my 300 WSM Frontier carbine, that certainly isn`t a problem. The 190 VLD which I used on my last elk hunt, had an MV of approx 2865 fps using RL17. In fact, that shouldn`t been an issue for most all 30s including the 300 Win, 300 Bee, 30-06, 308 etc. For just about all average killing distances for elk, 1800 to 2850 fps as an impact speed, is right on par. And if one suspects that his elk will be taken closer at less than 100 yards with his 300 Bee or Win Mag, then he can always load `er down to accomodate the VLD recomended impact speed.

I have addressed very plainly, the issue of penetration or the lack of it by the VLDs. More penetrations are needed IF the shooting angles are too wide and as a last resort on the last day of the hunt, a hind shot is taken to then penetrate forward to the vitals.

I have repeatedly stated, that the VLDs do not kill via a great deal of penetration. That is not the VLD gig or Berger`s concept of killing game.

As far as the deer pic is concerned where a 6.5mm VLD was used at a 3400 fps MV? Yep! I see alot of damage in the shoulder and neck area. But so what? Still plenty of meat there to be had from that deer from other areas.

And why should it matter whether the VLDs dent the off or opposite side ribs or not? Regardless, as long as you have a kill, what difference does that make? On larger girthed elk, VLD fragmentation doesn`t generally penetrate to the off side anyway. As long as the vitals are disrupted which really insures a kill, then why are complete pass throughs or almost complete pass throughs needed?...Oh I know! Just in case there is a wide angled shot or just in case one needs to track the game.

Your main beef with the VLDs are based on the "what ifs." What "if this" or "what if that" happens. We all think about those "what ifs." Guess I`m just lucky uh?...........48 one shot VLD kills. All taken at 35 degree shot angles or less, and all ran no further than a few yards after impact. Keep in mind though that over 45+ years of hunting, I have about 200 to 225 other head of game (mostly hogs) taken with other bullets, none of which were a hind quarter shot, or shots taken at extreme quartering angles. Lucky there too I guess.

In fact, I`ve seen a few cases of people coming back empty handed from their hunts, regardless of what darn bullet they were using.

We are clearly going to have to agree to disagree, which is fine by me.

You like the advantages the VLD gives you for your shooting, I prefer the advantages of the North Fork, MRX/TTSX, and others. I think both of us can honestly say �The benefits of the design far outweigh the drawbacks, for me.�

For what it is worth, the only time I�ve shot an animal �through a ham on the way to the chest� it was not the intended placement. For 25 years I could say �it hasn�t happened to me�. Fortunately, when it did, the bullet I was using was up to the task. It might never happen again or it might happen again on my next shot. Also, since I don�t shoot over 600 yards the BC of the North Fork bullets doesn�t bother me enough to matter and the BCs of the MRX and TTSX bother me even less.

That sounds like a pretty fair assessment.

We can all agree we need to understand how the bullets we choose to shoot game with will perform and use them appropriately.

This, I think, is at the core of a lot of bullet discussions;and folks who "know" their bullets and what they will do under a variety of circumstances,have few problems....

Since no one else really addressed it, in that situation, ie. a deer turning at the shot that puts the bullet "low in the right ham", a Berger would completely destroy the femur and most likely the spine, immobilizing the deer and allowing for another shot. I've had and/or taken raking shots (whether entrances or exits) through the femur/pelvic bones of several deer with several different bullets and calibers. TSX's, Ballistic-Tips, AMAX's, Partitions, SMK's... If I had to take a hole shot on a deer going away, I would much rather have a Berger or other rapidly expanding/fragmenting bullet then a TSX or other "tough" bullet. I've seen the results from both and I'll take the Berger...

That right there seems to about sum up most bullet arguments.

What works for some may not work for others, but we all know what type of bullet we use and how to use it, and what a person can do with it...

Coyote hunter, I shot that deer at around 350 with a 180 berger from a 7mmWSM running about 2900. It was not a small deer but not a monster either, about 210lbs. The deer did not go straight down he made little circles in the field before falling over. Here is a pic of the deer, below. I posted a threaad on it on my states dept of wildlife forums back when I killed the deer. In case you have any doubts and think this is some kind of recent fabrication you can go search the MDWFP forums which is now closed to posting and maybe find it under archived posts, same user name everywhere.



It may have been this one, cant remember which one it was, but one of these two.