Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger Hunting Bullets in VLD

In 7mm(.284)pellets, fired from a 7RSaum I have read a lot about different bullets and their construction. Have talked to a few who said that even though the hunting version of Berger's VLD's only retain 40-60% of their weight they are lethal on Elk at long range. Does anyone here have any practical experience with these. They are made in 140gr, 168gr and 180gr, I would favor the 168's from a ballistics only comparison. Any practical advice?

I think you might get a little more play on this topic in the reloading forum. I too am interested in the 168 bergers on elk.

Can only comment on a 168 gr Berger VLD, out of my 30.06, that slipped between the ribs on the left side of a cow Elk,tore up the lungs, punched through a rib on the right side and ended up in the upper right foreleg. She took exactly one step and simply sagged to the ground. 210 yards. Muzzle velocity at 70F and 700 ft Elevation was 2650 - so at 20F and 8000ft, it would have been, what, 'around' 2200 or less when it hit her?

Don't know if that helps you, but I'm happy with them in .308 caliber - YMMV.

Don`t own a 7mm, but from my 300 WSM, I did use the 190 gr hunting VLD on a bull elk from 328 yards.

The VLD impacted on the bull`s right side penetrating the thickest part of the shoulder bone, then continued on doing enormous internal damage. The bull collapsed after staggering between two to four yards. Bullet fragments were found just below the hide on the opposite side.

Aside from that one bull elk VLD experience, I have used the 168 and more recently the 175 VLDs to kill nearly 50 small to large hogs. All so far have been one shot devastating kills.

You must understand several things about the hunting VLDs.

First...Throw most conventional bullet wisdom out the window. The VLDs kill game using a different method or concept.

Second...VLD users are not concerned with bullet weight retentions, bullet recoveries or complete pass through penetrations. The vitals which need to be effectively disrupted, are located in the animal`s center towards the front. Also ime with hogs anyway, perfect 90 degree broadside shots (although preferred) do not always have to be made. With good placement as with any bullet, VLD shot angles can vary up to 35-40 degrees either quartering to or quartering away. Again, the vitals are located where?

Thirdly...Complete pass throughs or not, bullet recoveries or not, bullet weight retentions or not, what matters imo is simply this..."Do I have a dead animal which was quickly killed, and did I need to track that animal after the shot? Period. That is what determines VLD success.

And yes, the 7mm VLDs are extremely lethal on elk from long range. Berger will tell you, that a minimum of 1800 fps is needed at impact for the VLDs to do the job even through thick bone. They will also tell you that the VLDs are NOT just long ranged killers. Meaning that if your elk is only say 100 yards away, the much higher impact velocity into bone (if that is the case), won`t blow the VLDs apart before it has a chance to penetrate the first few inches like they are supposed to do.

I remember that there was a second party poster on this forum here, who reported about a year ago, that a 7mm hunting VLD was used by some retired military guy? to down a huge Alaskan moose from a distance in excess of 900 yards. It is a fact, that many elk have fallen to the 7 mm hunting VLDs from 500 yards out to 900, and even out to 1000 yards.

Like all beginning VLD users at first, we all had to start somewhere and be willing to try them on our hunts.

Thus far, I certainly "haven`t" been disappointed. In fact, I`ve been amazed by their quick lethality and devastation.

I haven't hunted elk but after having good success with 140gr VLD's on deer in my 6.5x55 decided to try them or similar bullet in my 7x57, Custom Ruger M77 MKII action, 24" Lilja barrel with 1:9 twist. I settled on the 162gr Hornady A-max (haven't tried the VLD in this caliber yet) which has performed extremely well on Deer at close and long range. I agree with bigsqeeze, "VLDs kill game using a different method or concept", and also the A-max. Very quick kills in my experience. These 2 bullets are very effective when impact is below 2600 fps (and good shot placement) and thus far have proven to be a great all-round bullet on medium game for the slower 7x57. I'm not suggesting that this can automatically be extrapolated to CPX3 game at higher impact velocities, but just my personal experience with these 2 similar bullets.

I might get lynched out there, but here are my thoughts...

I would throw this up with the "mechanical Vs. fixed broadhead" conversations....

Although I have never used them, what scares me is their overall theory of a bullet fragmenting out once inside the animal. I think the concept is good, IF the bullet makes it inside the animal.

My friend took shot a doe at 400 yards, and hit the shoulder, about an inch to the right of the chest. The doe dropped yes, but the bullet did not penetrate the cavity and blew up (fragmented) on the shoulder. I feel he was lucky to recover the deer since the bullet did not penetrate vitals. He was fortunate that it dropped right there. Otherwise, there would be a doe running around with a 3 inch wound on her shoulder....

I have read other similar stories online as well.

That is just food for thought. In the same way one can argue "mechanical broadheads" kill, but there is always that chance that it wont work. That is how I feel about the Berger VLD's.

That being said, I shoot mechanicals.....

Just my 38 cents.....

joe

What bullet, caliber, velocity etc. was in the equation? Bullets do NOT blow up on the whimpy shoulder of deer, unless they are light for caliber or varmint bullets. If it was indeed a Berger VLD or Hornady, it didn't blow up. Unless you were there and saw it, I would take it with a grain of salt. Did your friend do a complete autopsy, or just assume what took place. The deer was dead, that is not a failure in any way. She dropped right there. Would an exit hole have given you more? Comparing this to archery is like comparing a parachute to a fighter jet. Flinch

BigSqueeze totally nailed it! Nicely written. Flinch

No question these (Berger Hunting VLD and A-Max) are more frangible bullets and those are valid concerns. I was definitely a skeptic before I started using them on deer. Disintegration of these bullets on bone strikes is more of a concern in theory when impact occurs at distances where the velocity has dipped to less than 1800fps. Most of my shots are less than 200 - 250 yds (where velocity is still greater than 2200 fps)and high shoulder shots have produced DRT results on lighter frame deer. Penetration has been surprisingly good with exceptional wound channels. At longer distances where velocity has dropped, I still think you could argue that these bullets can be more ethical killers in the absence of bone strikes secondary to the fact that these projectiles require very little resistance to initiate expansion and produce impressive internal damage secondary to their exposive nature. As bigsqueeze posted, they have been reported on numerous occasions to harvest Elk cleanly out to 500 - 1000 yards. Bone strikes at these longer distances certainly could fail but the same can be said for competing bullets at lower impact velocity , such are the limitations of our current technology. I'm not touting them as a "do-all" bullet (I still love my TSX's and Partions) but these are not just target bullets. They can be very effective, fast killing bullets in a wide range of situations.

My buddy and I have shot elk, deer and bison with the Amaxs at 20 yards out to 600. Even the close up major bone doesn't seem to bother them. They still penetrate exceptionally well and stuff dies right on the spot. At long range, same results. Stuff just crumples, no matter if bone or tissue is contacted. Exit holes are rare, but nothing moves, so it doesn't matter. I like stuff dead on the spot, before some weekend warrior sees it running and starts banging away at it, or before it dives off into some hell hole. Out of over 30 animals, only a couple have moved and they didn't move far. They only moved over closer to the potatoes ;o) Flinch

Flinch, didnt mean to ruffle any feathers. I didnt know you had a stake in VLD's.



Actual message from friend: "168 grain Berger VLD Bullets...high shoulder shot...cmpletly broke her shoulder with a silver dollar sized entry hole...no exit. Very impressed with these bullets."

His previous message: "407 yards - 17 clicks up, 5mph wind - 4 clicks to the right, doe down."

If you read my post, I said it killed a deer. I was simply saying that I use a different bullet.

You also must have misread, or misunderstood my point on archery broadheads. I said comparing bullets (between VLD's and say bonded bullets) was like comparing mechanical and fixed broadheads.

The original post asked for experiences with these bullets. I stated the other side of the coin, from an experience my friend had. As you can see, he likes them.

No need to puff up your chest as if these VLD's are fool proof. To suggest that these bullets will never have problems, considering their theory of a fragmented bullet (40-60% weight retention) is simply not smart. It is something that should be considered when shooting any bullets.

Again, my opinion.

joe

Once again we get posts on VLD's from people who have never used them, and who ASSUME because VLD's kill by breaking up that they might on impact.

Unlike most bullets, VLD's do not even START to expand on impact. Instead they go in a couple of inches before fragmenting. And they do this over and over and over again, whether the shot is close-up or far away, even on bone. I know this because I have seen dozens of VLD's in various sizes used on big game from 20 yards to 550+, instead of just theorizing on what happens from somebody else's deer.

I want to hear from someone that has some REAL high velocity close impact shots with the Berger VLD. Not the A-Max, the Berger. I'm moving the 190 grain damn near 3400 fps. I've also taken big bulls at WAY under 100 yards. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. mtmuley

Sorry, the closest I can come is the .300 Winchester Magnum with 168's at 3200 or so. Have seen several animals shot with that load at less than 50 yards, and the bullets worked fine, but that isn't 3400 fps.

Theory? What theory?

I just showed you a picture of a VLD bullet expanding on impact on a shoulder shot. It did not "go in" a couple inches and expand.

Your theory does not explain that.

I dont care who used the bullets, and I am sure they will continue to kill animals. I just dont use them.

joe

I used one the other day out of my .257 Wby at 3400 fps. 115 gr Berger. I'll try and post a pic but it was impressive. It knocked the deer (smallish MS Doe) about 7-8 ft backwards and lifted her off the ground. She didn't move. Vitals were crushed. Off side rib cage was missing and off side shoulder was mush. Do not shoot anything you intend to eat. Shot was slightly angling toward me, went in just in front of the shoulder where the neck meets and the entrance was barely noticeable. Exit was unreal.
Lee

I have seen this happen, not with a VLD mind you. Shooting a 130GR Winchester Silvertip, the ones that came in the silver box and had that rounded silver head on the bullet. Shot a deer at about 175 yrds, bullet broke the shoulder but did not penetrate into the chest cavity. Deer dropped in the CRP and I thought it was DRT. I waited for the group of guys who were watching me, do my stalk, from the county road to drive out to me. We then walked out to pick up the deer. I get out to were I had it marked and start searching and find blood. They were like what the heck, it fell straight down. We follow the blood about 20 yards and the deer stands and starts trying to run, next shot finished him off.

Two years earlier I was using the same bullets and shot my first deer, 175 pound buck, that was walking straight at me square in the chest. He fell DRT, shredded heart and lungs. I thought it was the have all be all of bullets at that time. I also shot a coyote with the same bullet, entered didnt exit, dead as a door nail.

So with my limited experince with the silvertip I decided it was a bullet for light skinned game inside of 150 yrds. This may not be true for the silvertip, but its what im lieing eyes tell me. I sure hope they tell me that the 168gr 7mm bergers perform as advirtised and im staring at a nice mature elk this next fall. Heck i'll even be happy with a calf.

Badley

I now have all the confidence I need thanks to Mule Deer's remarks about the VLD's.

What cartridge are you using. Just curious.

It was that dang .270 you were shooting, not the 130 grain bullet ;o)

Any chance of the bullet hitting CRP, grass or something else before hitting the deer? I just have a hard time understanding how bullets of said weight blow up on light tissue, without hitting something before hitting the animal. Something had to start the bullet unraveling before it hit the deer. Anywho, bullets do strange things some times. Flinch

Not a VLD story, but in the same vein. I had a .277 130 ballistic tip vaporize on the shoulder of a 125 lb sow many years ago. Impact velocity was in the 'hood of 3100 and not directly on bone. A hand size area of hide and flesh was gone with no penetration into the vital area. A head shot finished her off but that pig would have run and possibly lived. The shot was akin to a bullet destructing when hitting a steel target. Last NBT I ever used on game other than varmints.