Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger Hunting Bullets in VLD

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...g-vlds-so-successful-eric-stecker-43447/

This is a response by Berger to the Barnes test, if you want to read more "scientific" data.

jolin,

Thanks for doing a search and seeing what other experience is out there.

I have never claimed any bullet is perfect, and much prefer the data from a number of animals. That was my main point.

The great bullet debates still amaze. You can kill almost any animal with almost any bullet made. Premium bullets are not needed if you hit the animal well. Stuff just is not that hard to kill.

Great photo, Moosemuncher, thanks for posting that. A picture is worth 1,000 words, especially on the internet.

kup-
The Berger hunting bullet appears to have a soft-core with a relatively thin jacket.

We have done that design already. What sets this design apart and makes it a great hunting bullet?

No one is disputing the bullets accuracy.

But, the single gelatin photo showing delayed expansion is most likely an anomaly. And, if it is not the 'norm', it further exposes the bullets inconsistent performance.

How is this projectile any different in terminal performance than any other thin-jacketed bullet?

Please explain what puts this hunting bullet right up there with the provens.

Lastly, is "most of the time" bullet performance acceptable to you when pulling the trigger on a big game animal?

Unless you run into something like an SGK that fails to expand.... or other once in a lifetime issues...
And unless you have to take a hard angular shot. Though the way I see the berger frag up, hitting guts could kill the animal right there.... guts seem really susceptible to shock for some reason.

Of course when it counts, when I can't or won't pass the only shot given, it'lll be barnes

I'm not a Barnes user, but will reach for them faster than the Bergers, for which I have little use.Maybe varmints...

The breathless accounts of game withering to the shot from the Berger (like it's something "new" or "unique"),is amusing.Been watching it for years,so I don't know what the big deal is...

Course then again shooting BG animals at really LR holds no particular fascination for me. YMMV.

I DO like shooting at rocks!

How many times have we read "At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail"?

That 'head in the sand' response seems to be the norm whenever someone expresses a concern with their bullets terminal performance.

A bullet can fail and still bring game to bag.

Fragile bullets have been known to come apart before they even reach the target. With that given, I would state it is possible for a bullet to prematurely expand in contact with a big game animal.

Just my opinion, but I thought the coyote shot with the Barnes bullet brought very little to the discussion.

Interesting thread. I may have to try some Bergers this year. I just never run across them in gun stores down here, and about the only bullets that I ever order on the net are ABs for my 9.3s...

A good way to look at this for shots under 500 yards (which would be "most") is the long-for-caliber high BC Berger vs. a light-for-caliber TTSX at 3-400 fps faster, with absolutely no worries about the 50-yard shot in the shoulder.

MikeWerner,

The photo of delayed expansion is not an anomaly. It happens over and over and over again with Berger VLD's, both in test media and on animals. I have seen it many, many times, and it IS what makes VLD's different from other super-expanding bullets. If you have proof to the contrary, then I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

The example of entrance hole on the coyote with the TSX was to show that the size of an ENTRANCE HOLE (or any other exterior result from a hunting bullet) has nothing to do with what the bullet does INSIDE the animal--which is where the vital organs are. Or maybe you're one of those people who never guts their own animals, so makes all sorts of inferences from the entrance and exit holes.

I am not somebody who believes that VLD's (or TSX's, or Woodleighs, or Sierra Gamekings, or whatever) are THE ANSWER to hunting bullets. Instead I am a professional gun writer who tries lots of hunting bullets, and often enough to find out what is normal behavior for that particular bullet, rather than extrapolating from "examples of one." (Which us exactly what somebody on this thread did--and from an animal that he didn't even see shot, much less shoot himself.)

I don't really give a FF what bullet you use. I have no stake in Berger--or Nosler, Barnes, Woodleigh, Sierra, Hornady, etc. etc. But I do give a damn about reporting what happens, and so tend to get a little peeved when internet dip-brains with no experience with a particular subject start spouting off.

In response to the "over and over and over" proof of the delayed expansion, please give a definite percentage in the test you are referring to. Please post a link as well.

I honestly did not come here to offend any gun-writers, gun-writer-goupies, or even cable-show-groupies.

And, please pardon my post count. I prefer to actually experience the outdoors in my limited spare time.

Some of your posts have been very offensive recently.

To those so anxious to proclaim I do not have the experience in the field or at the reloading bench......please convince my lovely wife of 26 years.

Mike, my wife thinks I'm a hero too.

I just need someone to convince her that the 'time spent' is normal.

MikeWerner,

Okay, I apologize over my slightly over-the-top post. But I do tend to get offended when somebody makes a crack like, "Just my opinion, but I thought the coyote shot with the Barnes bullet brought very little to the discussion."

I also get really weary of the many discussions on the Campfire that seem to produce VERY firm opinions from people who have zero or little experience with the subject. Probably the three subjects that do this, every time, are Berger VLD's, using .22 centerfires on deer, and elk rifles, cartridges and bullets.

One of the reason I tend to get a little peeved about Berger threads is that the debate has gone on a lot before, and the way they work has been described many times. I published an article in HANDLOADER a few years ago about a trip to New Zealand to specifically test VLD's, because NZ has so many feral animals that allow plenty of shooting. We not only shot dozens of animals, but autopsied quite a few, until the delayed expansion got so boring that we quit. Oh, I also tested their penetration on bones by shooting into the shoulders of big feral goats at very close range, after the goats were dead. The VLD's penetrated every time. You can probably find a link to that article if you do a search on the Campfire.

VLD's have also been tested over and over again in The Bullet Test Tube, a wax-based medium developed by my friend Richard Mann. Their performance in Test Tubes pretty much exactly matched their performance in the animals we autopsied in New Zealand.

Since then I have used VLD's on big game here in Montana and other western states, because I do like their performance for certain kinds of hunting. They have always acted exactly the same. In fact the two bullets I've used that are most consistent in the way they expand are Barnes TSX's and Berger VLD's, which operate at opposite ends of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that one is "right" and one is "wrong," just that they work differently.

Yeah, you're right. Some of my recent posts have been offensive, probably because they were meant to be. I don't react that way often, partly because you have to be pretty thick-skinned to be a writer whose opinion appears on newstands several times a month. But eventually I can get riled, especially on a thread like this.

ok...saw the "over the top" comment...

joe

Mike

The bergers I have used so far continue to amaze me. I have yet to use the hunting version because of some exit holes I"ve seen pictures of, but I have now shot about 4 bucks and a handful of pigs and javelina in the shoulder just to see, although only from a 308, and 185s, the bullets have done perfectly at doing caliber entry, and quarter size or so exits. Pretty good damage between the two holes too.

One can only assume I'd see more bang flops using the hunting version. BUT OTOH I rarely shoot bone and IMHO bang flops generally have nothing to do with the bullet and all about shot placement. One day I'll get brave and swap to the hunting version just to shoot some pigs and such and see... but I really don't expect bang flops from rib shots.

I will say that the berger damages the shoulder meat much more than the TSX does especially on the exit side.
That being said I have been pleasantly surprised the bullets do much LESS damage than the old and even some of the new ballistic tip types.

Those needing a bang flop though should still, regardless of bullet choice, should concentrate on CNS or high shoulder shots(same difference really as you are shooting for the spine but calling it a shoulder shot)

As to percentages of the animals I"ve shot that the bullet doesn't open until inside about 3-4 inches... 110% so far. And while if you hit a shoulder knuckle joint wiht a BT, it starts blowing up right there, the berger continues to penetrate for some reason before opening.

I had an interesting discussion with a Hornady tech who basically told me the following:this is the list of toughest-most weight retention to the least in their lineup, Gmx, best for elk, interbond, interlock of which the SST is one, and not to be used for game but generally for target shooting the amax. Unfortunately the gmx is only 139gr in 7mm which I view as kinda light for the caliber.

The Berger rep said that the hunting vld is made to be effective form 2500-1800fps and was designed optimally for long and very long range. That the tv show Best of the West hunters routinely get elk with the vld out to 1000 yards. He also mentioned that with around 40% wt. retention with a 168gr 7mm pill that you would still have a mass of lead of 70gr doing a lot of damage. My only real concern would be if you did not execute well and hit directly on the shoulder. thanks for all of the responses.

I did take a 670# Moose 2 years ago with a .308, shooting a 180 nosler partition at 300 yards. It hit behind the shoulder with the moose almost broadside. The bullet was recovered with over half its weight in the neck, you could see where the bullet hit the inside on the opposite shoulder and riccoched up the neck, it jumped straight up flipped over and died, not even one step. As you can surmise with my vld quest I am looking for a higher bc bullet for hunting out west.

I totally sympathize with your dilemna on giving your experienced opinions. Since the Jim Zumbo fiasco, I have never understood why any writer would ever give their opinion outside of contractual obligation.

It is just a no-win situation.

As far as the comment concerning the coyote and the Barnes bullet, I will admit it was made to initiate response. But, somehow the posts eventually turn these into Berger VS Barnes threads. I didn't see the relevance of a Barnes bullet (used on a coyote) in a VLD thread on the Elk Hunting forum. But again, unfortunately, I used it to get a response.

rost,

I suspect that if you try the hunting VLD's you will experience more instant kills from lung shots. My experience is also that even if the animal doesn't go down instantly to a lung shot, it will go down quicker, on average, than with any other bullet I've used.

Even the guides in New Zealand became VLD converts, and very quickly, especially for goats. Feral goats are considered among hardest-to-drop big game animals by most people who shoot them. The outfitter took one look at a VLD round and told us we had absolutely the wrong bullet, that what we needed was a heavy round-nose with lots of lead showing. But by the end of the second day all the Kiwis were saying the VLD was the best goat bullet they'd ever seen.

In fact, the first goat shot with a pure, broadside lung shot was a big black billy that my wife Eileen took at around 150 yards. It collapsed instantly and rolled down the slope, which is apparently almost unheard of when shooting goats. And that was with a 115-grain from a .257 Roberts at around 2950 fps. Very quick kills was typical, whether on 150-200 pound goats or 400-pound red stags. In fact the biggest stag was also killed with a 115 from a .257, at 200 yards. The shot was placed a little too far to the rear of the rib cage, getting the liver and the rear of the lungs. The stag barely managed to hobble 15 feet before falling over.

The reason for the quick kills is massive internal damage. VLD's tear up innards more than any other bullets I've ever seen. They don't just punch big holes through organs, they rip them apart. My stag was shot with a 185-grain from a .30-06 at 250 yards. The bullet literally turned the heart into a flap of flesh about a foot long. The stag was bedded down and never rose to his feet, instead just tipping his head back briefly, then rolling down the mountain.