Shooting 140 Gr Nosler Accubond at 2850 fps
Have plenty of other rifles and calibers but I am a sucker for this particular rifle and load these days. Going on an elk hunt and wonder how far I can cleanly take an elk with this load. I can shoot straight past 800 with this rifle.

thanks
toa

It depends. There are always going to be uncontrollable variables shooting at game animals in the field. If the critter is angling a little, then the vitals require more penetration to reach, simple trigonometry.

Would you shoot an elk deliberately with a full metal jacket? Nosler says the 140 grain Accubond will expand down to 1800 fps. Anything less than that amounts to using an FMJ. So look at their chart and see how far you hold at least 1800 fps with a 2850 fps muzzle velocity. That's your absolute limit, doesn't matter how accurate you are, that's as far away as your bullet can possibly perform as designed when it hits meat.

What sort of accuracy can you actually deliver 100% of the time in the field? Depending on terrain, you may be forced to shoot from a position where your limit is 50 yards (offhand wobbly rifle in one hand the other holding onto a tree), or 200 yards (kneeling?) or 350 yards (prone with no rest, just elbows) ... still keeping in mind the limits of the bullet's velocity and how well it will or won't penetrate depending on angle and position the elk is standing.

See how it gets to be pretty hard to say, arbitrarily, what will or won't work? I can't write you any guarantees. I'm sure regardless of what happens at the rifle range, my limit with that setup is probably not over 300 yards and I'd be way more comfortable at 175.

Tom

Figure out the distance out to which you can hit a larger paper plate on the first shot 90% of the time, from field positions. I'll bet that distance is a lot closer to 300 than 800 yards. And no, shooting off a bench at a gong you are dialed in for does not count. I'll also bet the min velocity threshold will not become a factor at that distance.

velocity drops off below 1800 at 700 yards. I am hoping for a shot under 200 but I can make a fast shot with a backpack rest at 400 without much trouble. If my only option is a 500 yard shot and i have time to set up and study the land i can make the shot. Same at 600 with a little more time.
Do i want to shoot it long range? no. but if it is my only shot, that accubond will hit the elk at 600 with 1100 ft lbs.
Do I have enough gun?
Broadside. only talking broadside.
And talking theory while daydreaming about heading out to my elk hunt in too many months.
toa

Your gun and bullet choice are fine. Quit fretting and go climb some stairs.

What kind of rifle.

7-08 will bounce right off an Elk

cooper
love it. feels good, shoots good, looks good, smells good. Sounds good?

Hmmm ... I won't tell you it won't. I don't want to stand out there while you test on me. However, that's not the same as "approval." There are a lot of parts of it I wouldn't do, but that's just me. Distance. Choice of bullet weight. There's what worked for someone once, then there's what you can count on. Not always the same. I tend towards the conservative side, even "overkill", 'cause tracking down "underkill" and packing it back up out of a canyon sucks.

Tom

I see nothing wrong with it.
You have confidence in it and seem to have the general experience to know what you can and can't do at a particular time and place.
Both of which count for more than the caliber.
Go forth and kill an elk.

140 AB out of a 7/08 is going to kill elk pretty far out there.

That distance is ultimately a variable determined by wind, terrain, time of day, critter movement, etc... And hopefully good common sense.

krp has made something of a career taking elk and guiding people to good bulls that were killed cleanly, all with a 7mm-08. If you're really worried, PM him.

This is sage advice.

Worry about your conditioning and finding elk. The weapon is perfectly capable.

Your rifle and bullet will work just fine. Myself and I'm sure many others have killed lots of elk with a 7x57 and cup and core bullets. When I still had a 7x57 I shot 145 speers, killed elk real dead.

Enjoy your hunt.

How far can you dump one in the brain will answer your question.

I'd try to stay inside 400 yds myself, but it will kill as far as you can destroy vitals...

I've shot a bunch of elk with a 270 and 150 gr bullets. The bullet wt and velocity are very similar to what you're using. My longest shot with it was about 300 yds and I got complete penetration except for the hide on the far side (which will stop a LOT of rounds). On one at about 300, my bullet went through the chest and broke the shoulder on the far side. The bullet on that one was also under the hide.
I wouldn't be afraid to use it at 400 as long as I could laser it first.

Under good conditions your caliber and bullet choice will work. Under questionable conditions you are pushing it. If the animal is quartering or the range is pushing it you could end up with a wounded elk and a long track or lost elk. Bigger caliber and heaver bullet. My brother guides elk hunters out of Cody, he uses a 35 Whalen with a 250 gr. nosler part. That is his choice of an elk gun. Until you have wounded an elk and not retrieved it in time to salvage the meat you can't understand how important it is to hunt with the best combination of caliber and bullet weight. I made this mistake.

Hard to imagine a shot where you could kill a elk with a 35 Whelen and couldn't kill it with a 7/08-

Last I heard, a few years ago, my friend John Haviland's sons had killed over 30 elk with the 7mm-08, using various bullets in the 140-grain class, at ranges out to 400 yards. They've never had a problem, and the elk include everything from cows to mature bulls.

Debating the use of the 7mm-08 on elk is a lot like debating the use of the .270. Somebody I know who's killed a similar number of elk (including some big bulls) with the .270 once said: "If you can shoot, the .270 is an elk rifle. If you can't, it isn't."

The same applies to the 7mm-08.

My son used a 7-08 and 140 gr. Accubond on his first big game hunt and killed this elk at just shy of 300yards. Yep, my son was rattled with about 75 elk getting the heck out of Dodge, but he stayed on this cow and dropped her for good on his 3rd shot. Of the 3 rounds, only one was recovered and was right at 65% weight retention if memory serves me right. Oh, and that is a BIG friggin cow!



Might also add that the load is mild, only 2750 at the muzzle...

In perfect conditions, I would keep my shots under 200 yards.

How many elk have you killed with the 7-08?

JFC! Perfect conditions?

Read just the other day on the campfire it requires a magnificent 338 rum. You could PM the blowhard and get the particulars. LOL

Keep a 7/08 under 200 yards..

This chit just kills me..

Wow, lots of advice from a bunch of "elk hunters" that havent shot many elk...or a 7-08.

I've seen several killed the last few years with the 7-08 and 140 accubonds from 2 different rifles...one has a MV of 2910, the other 2870.

My wife shot this bull at 202 yards, broadside. The bull slowly turned at the shot, then stumbled about 30 feet downhill and flopped over dead.



I was impressed enough with the 7-08 I built one last year and got to test it out a bit.

I shot these 2 elk in about 60 seconds. Shot this cow first at 130-140 yards broadside. She kicked and ran about 20 yards and died.



This bull stepped out when I shot the cow, and I thought about it for a minute before I shot him at 170 yards, hard quartering away. He slumped at the shot and made it about 30 yards into the timber and died.



Next I headed to Montana to hunt with my Dad and Brother. My Dad was interested in my 7-08, so shot this cow at 230 yards quartering slightly away. Made it a whopping 25 yards before hitting rubber legs street and dropped.



My Brother took this 6 point bull the following day at 487 yards, again quartering away. Found the bullet, a 140 grain accubond (only one I've found so far), on the point of the off shoulder. The bull made it a whopping 25 yards.



Heres the recovered bullet:



Finally, I was whitetail deer hunting in Western Montana and bumped into 2 bulls. I hated to waste a day of deer hunting, but took this bull with a hard quartering toward shot at 70 yards, hitting the point of the on side shoulder. The bull left a massive blood trail and I found him about 15 yards from where I shot him.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/buzzandpat/elkhunting/websize/DSC00160.JPG[/img]

My conclusion is that the 7-08 is a very capable choice for elk.

I've killed many elk with the 30/06 and 338 and they work great as well. But, for those thinking the 7-08 is marginal for elk, you need to take perfect shots, you have to be within 200 yards, etc. demonstrates to me that they havent seen it used much on elk.

I'm sure some will still argue all day long about how marginal the 7-08 is for elk...

Carry on.

Dang Buzz, you need to buy another rifle so you, your dad, and your brother don't have to share the one 7-08.

smokepole,

Funny story, when I left Montana my brother tells me, "be sure to take good care of my rifle, dont be dropping it and beating it up"...

Had a good friend from AK use it on 2 nice WY pronghorns as well...he really liked it too.

Its just an easy rifle to shoot well, easy to carry, etc.

I also killed an elk on the same hunt my Dad and Brother took theres last year. I had been meaning to kill an elk with my Dads pre-64 in 30/06 for years. Finally got around to it last fall. My Dad, my late Grandfather, and I have all now killed deer, elk, and pronghorn in Montana with the same rifle.

Have had numerous clients kill elk out to 500yds using the 7mm-08. Had my wife one built several years ago, and have seen numerous animals killed with it, from hogs up to mule deer and elk. There has been several times that I have had clients guns not show up at the airport, and several have shot this rifle for elk. Numerous ones came back the next year with a new 7mm-08. Im not a fan of accubonds, but that is just my personal opinion. Put the bullet in the right place and no matter the distance, it will do what it is supposed to do.
Great round.

Toby Joe

All I could think of was how bad it would suck to have two elk down at once. One is bad enough. But congratulations!

Buzz, Congrats on some very fine animals. Big of you to offer up your rifle to others! Your a good man.

I've yet to see a 30-06 make anything more dead than a 7mm-08 or visa versa.

The 140 Partition always served us well. And every Accubond kill we've experienced has been very much partition like.

Logged in just to say that's funny....

I prefer 160 gr NAB's in my 7-08 for elk...

What speed you getting and powder used?

Say what you will Rancho, I don't care what your opinions about my opinions are. But to clarify myself, I did not say that a 7mm08 could not kill elk at longer distances. I've heard of and seen people drop elk and moose at much longer distances than 200 yards with this round. But the reason for my opinion is this; I am extremely respectful of the animals I hunt, and therefore I am extremely (you may even say overly) cautious about the shot I take and the rounds and types of bullets I use. There are two reasons I hunt. The first reason is so that I my eat meat from an animal that lived the way an animal should live, ate what an animal should eat, and died as quick, fear free, and pain free a death as could possibly provide, instead of waiting in terror at a slaughter house. The second reason is so that proper populations can be maintained so that they can continue living proper and healthy lives. And out of my respect of these animals and my striving to provide them with clean and proper deaths, I simply refuse to hunt animals the size of elk or larger with any thing smaller than a .308 or .270, not that a smaller round like the 7mm08 or 7x57 Mauser won't get the job done properly, especially with premium ammunition, but I just like to be absolutely confident that what I am shooting will provide the clean and quick kills I desire. Call me paranoid if you like, because I probably am. I also refuse, no matter how large my gun is, to take a shot unless I know I can make it and like to keep my shots at as short distances as possible. If I have doubts or worries as to whether I can make that shot or not then I will simply not take it. Now if you see my reasons to be absurd, dumb, badly thought out, or lacking, then feel free to insult, criticize or demean. Because I really don't give a d@mn.

.284 is a smaller round than .277?

Holeee chit.

Learn something new on here every day.

If you don't think you can cleanly take an elk past 200 yds with an 7-08, you haven't hunted much.

So you�ve seen situations where a 270 or 308 performed better than a 7mm-08 or 7x57 on elk size game, in order for you to come to this conclusion? What were the ranges, conditions and situations, and bullets/loads used?

Youre clueless!

It would be difficult to choose four cartridges more similar in general performance on big game than the .270 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, 7x57 Mauser and .308 Winchester. My wife and I have used all four on various big game animals, and I can't imagine the circumstances where one would definitely outperform the others.

I was not really talking about bullet diameter, Rancho, I was mainly talking about energy. You know, mass multiplied by the square of the speed.

Prairie Goat, what neither you nor Ranco seems to realize is that I am not try to knock either of the 7mms I previously mentioned. I love them both and think they are fantastic wonderful rounds and, as I have said before, know that they'll drop elk. And to be entirely honest, I have seen little to no evidence that a 308 or 270 drops elk any better than either of the 7mms mentioned. Yes I've seen messed kills with all of them, probably the most with the 7mm08, but that could be from any number of variables. But as I said before, I am overly cautious and paranoid when it comes to my ammunition and I simply have set some limits. Is that really such a sin?

Thought my 7mm08 was too much gun....

So I took the 243ai.

Oh well.

Then say energy, instead of "smaller".

Like muledeer pointed out, you're not going to find much difference in perfomance in this class of cartridges, even way out past 200 (eeek!) yards.

Your sin, if you insist calling it that, is using your caution to make an assumption, or even an absolute judgement, when you shouldn't be.

And in your case, I want to bring to your attention the words of a wise man - bullets matter more than headstamps.

It jumped up and ran off after that picture.. Be honest, now.

With a boner in hand and a gleam in his eye, 'slave can make the dead undead.

Never took a step. Honest.
High shoulder.

I got the power, WT.

Yes, yes you do.

well bless your heart!

BuzzH and others,

How was that 140 grain Accubond for meat damage? Did it bloodshot a lot or not bad? My wife has a 7mm-08 and when she first got it I loaded up some 139 grain Hornady Interlocks. She shot a small whitetail buck quartered away, from the shoulder blade clear back to the ham was bloodshot. After that I loaded up some 162 interlock boatails, she hasn't killed anything with those as I can't get her to put her 300WSM down, Its her lucky rifle. I might have to start hunting with her LIL Seven. It is a nice Remington Model Seven SS. With a 2-7 Leupy.

I've not seen any excessive meat damage with the accubonds at all, either the 140 or 160 grain in .284.

Here is the "damage" from the cow I shot with the 140's...

Entrance side:





Exit side:

Thanks Buzz,

looks like a solid performer all around.

Nice animals in those pics Buzz. I agree.

This statement pretty well sums it up. The rest of this thread has turned into an absurd pizzing match.

Buzz, very cool on your dad's pre-64. Those old rifles just seem to be 'lucky.'

If you can't get within 300 yard of elk, then you need to work on your hunting skills. I think your rifle is fine - get in shape and enjoy your hunt.

Re-read this whole thread,which was a good one.

This seems to sum things up nicely.

Several gunwriters for Wolfe Publications - all westerners with lots of experience - use the 7mm-08 for big game, including elk. One, John Haviland, posted a picture of his son with a bull elk he took with a Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08, the old style rifle with 18-1/2" barrel. If you place your shot well and limit your shooting distance, why not?

From earlier in the thread, it sounds like he has more experience than just the one:

A bullet from a piece of galvanized pipe will kill an elk, so will a 22 LR, but there are far better cartridges. Not every shot is perfect, and smaller the cartridge, the less room for error. . The 30-30 has killed thousands of elk, but there are many cartridges far better, as there are many better than a 7mm-08. Just my 02, coming up on my 56th elk season.

I would say under "optimal" conditions that is enough gun� but I can't remember the last elk I killed under optimal "conditions". They are big animals and they can take lead like it's nothing and can keep going for miles. I started out elk hunting in 1982 with a .270 Win, then moved to a 7mm Rem Mag, then to a 300 Win Mag, and the past few years I've been using a .338 win mag. To be honest I can't tell you the 338 Win Mag has any better record with me than the .270, I just know that when I have an odd angled shot, or a heavy cross wind, etc. that I have a better chance of making it to the boiler room with a 250g .338 bullet rather than a 150g .270 bullet� I killed two cows last Nov. with the .338, neither took a step after being hit� both were btwn 200 and 300 yds. Then two days later my son and I tag teamed a bull at around 200 yds and after 3 good hits with his .300 Win mag, I had to put two more from my .338 in it to put it down for good� all 5 shots were lethal, just not enough to anchor him. No two elk die the same. Give yourself the best shot you can, carry the heaviest caliber you can shoot comfortably and tote around the mountains� the elk deserve to die quickly and humanely, IMHO. So, in summary, if it were me, I'd take a gun with a bit more knock down power.

Thanks for being honest.

I'll just assume you're not being "cheeky" and say you're welcome.

"Cheeky?" What, do I sound Australian?

Where's LaMont, by the way?

Cute, pole smoker, GFY.

Elk aren't hard to kill... and if you have a hard time killing elk... a 338 won't make a difference.

Kent

GFM??? GFY.

You're the one who said you couldn't tell a difference between the .270 and the .338 on elk. And then proceeded to say the .338 was better.

OK, at least were getting back on topic. It's simple, IMHO it's about margin of error. The larger the caliber the more likely a marginal hit will anchor the animal faster. Bigger hole, more energy, etc. In the right hands a 7-08 will do it all day long, I just like knowing that in the event I screw up and make a bad shot I have a better chance of recovering my animal. I'm not in the business of making bad shots, but it happens from time to time, inadvertently. The OP said he had larger caliber rifles he could take but just really liked the 7-08. My opinion, and recommendation to him was to take a bigger stick. He can hunt and kill with whatever the hell he wants to, I was offering my opinion, which last time I checked is what this forum is about? As a matter of fact, that is exactly what he was asking! I'm out, I've gotta go find Lamont out in the scrap yard and feed Aunt Ester some beef and kippers, then drive crazy Grady down to the bingo parlor.

Cliff Note: Redfoxx is a poor shot and has gut shot elk with a 270, 7MM Mag, 300 Win Mag and 338 Win Mag. Surprisingly, gut shot elk are hard to find.

Red: First, thanks for having a sense of humor. That Grady is a piece o' work. As far as your statements I quoted above, I'm sure there may be some hits where a .338 would be more effective than a 7-08 but I don't know that I agree 100%; a marginal hit is a marginal hit. And there's obviously nothing wrong with your opinion or a .338. But what you said above could also be said about the .338 WM vs. the .50 BMG, so why not that?

Obviously, there are trade-offs in recoil, noise, expense, and so on. Once you get to a certain point, there are diminishing returns. How much is enough? I had a .338, a really nice Kimber. Great piece of walnut and accurate. But I found myself not shooting it very much. And it was also heavier than what I like to tote in the mountains. So I turned it into a 7 mag. and then sold that to fund another project.

But I still have my 7-08. I shoot it a lot, it's light and a joy to carry. So that's how I lean. I get to hunt elk every year, and I don't mind waiting on the shot I want.

Plus, I just don't see myself turning down a shot with a 7 mm. 150 partition or BT that I'd have taken if I'd only had the .338 WM in my hands.

That pretty much sums it up.

Never understood "margin of error".

Me neither.



What I have seen are some pretty dramatic elk kills from things like the 338, 340,300 Weatherby and Winchester,etc etc vs standard cartridges on the order of a 270 or 30/06(never seen a 7/08 used;no one I have hunted with has used one and neither have I on elk).....such that you could maybe conclude the elk were taking a bigger beating from the bigger cartridges,and especially at distance.

But over the years it dawned on me that this was so ONLY with solid chest or shoulder hits;and the bigger rounds were no more likely to anchor them with bad hits than smaller stuff....you had a rodeo with either one.

I'm one of those odd folks who believes that as game animals get bigger, you have to pay even more attention to hitting them very precisely if you want to avoid problems.The use of a bigger rifle does not mean you can get sloppy and still be successful.

OK, then we're agreed. I'll keep intentionally taking marginal shots and gut shooting elk with my .338WM (after all that's what I said initially, right?) since I'm an unethical and inexperienced douche bag, and you guys keep making one shot instant sniper kills at 700 yards with your laser guided 7mm-08's and keep taking the high road, and now everyone's happy.

Well, since you said "you guys" I'll respond. I never said any of that, neither did Bob. We offered our opinions.

What happened to this?

Smokepole, that was my feeble attempt at humor. I agree 100% that everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's what I was trying to do before I got gang-banged. I was being personally attacked for voicing my opinion due to the fact that it was contrary to the feelings and opinions of the group (not an uncommon occurrence on internet forums). In the end, it's all just personal preference and confidence in one's abilities and chosen/available tools. Thank God we have all the options we do, and the freedom to chose, voice our opinions and to disagree with one another (hopefully with some tact) and debate in an open forum, such as this one.

To the OP, hunt with what you like and be confident. If 7mm-08 is your huckleberry, then go kill an elk with authority! The .338WM is mine, and I intend to do the same in November.

God bless,

Foxx

Opinion is when someone says a 338 is better for them than a 708... fine.

It's the qualifyings that leave opinion and are up to scrutiny. It's no one elses fault that they point out discrepancies once you leave opinion.

Kent

Yep. Wish more people understood that.

Plenty of Elk have been killed by Hunters with 7x57s. 7mm08 is so close there is no difference.

Hunters don't shoot at an Elk past 300 yards and most are killed well under 200.

Climbing lots of stairs was the best advice given so far.

Great topic, my son will be using his 7x57 Mauser loaded with 140 AB's at 2900 or 150 PT's at 2850 or so this Fall for spikes in Oregon if he draws. He won't be shooting over 400 yards as that is all we have to practice with, but I would feel okay with him taking a good rested shot like that and I will be there to assist him with the shot. Plus, I will be sorta backing him up with my 338 as well, but I don't imagine I'll have to do much if he does his part.

Buzz, awesome pictures and very motivating!

'Foxx,
From now on you need to remember this one simple fact and you'll do fine; On the 'net all cartridges kill just as quickly and efficiently as all other cartridges. In cyberspace even the .243 is the equal of the .338 WM so of course the 7mm-08 is. If you want to talk about real world truths you need to do it in the real world. Reality has no place here. And remember, nobody ever hits an elk marginally on the web. Good day.

GMAFB.

I had a good friend tell me the 6.5 X 55 has most likely killed more moose than any other caliber due to the amount of moose taken in Europe. So as long as you get Moose range shots the 7mm 08 should shine. Smokepole.....you are a nasty, nasty troll. IMHO

Well then.

Was it JB who said the 7-08 is a women and children's round?

Because women and children seem to kill stuff with it just fine, but many men need something bigger?

Thank you for the advice Moosemike, well noted and appreciated. Now with all of my new wisdom from my flogging here, I'm going to jump over the the Alaska forum and tell them that the 7-08 is now the go-to "minimum" caliber for Brown bear!

Seems like were beatin' a dead elk...or was it horse?

Good idea. But its probably the maximum. The .223 AI is probably the minimum.

Considering that Phil Shoemaker stated that anything above and including the 270 Win with 150gr Partitions is sufficient, you might not get the laughter you are anticipating. Similarly, post it after the story and pics of the brown bear taken with a 25-06 and 80gr TTSXs...

I saw that thread on the 25-06 and 80g TTSX's. That bear looked pretty dead to me. Amazing, proves the point about shot placement. Not sure I'd walk the bear woods with a 25-06, but that's just me. That little jet river boat is way cool!

I hear tell that some joker even went so far as to shoot an AK grizzly with a 260...and IIRC, was over 300 yards.

I'd hunt brown bears with a 7-08 all day long.

Funny that sticking elk with a sharp stick is more than enough, but shooting one with a 7-08 is a stunt.

I'd like to hear the circumstances involving a real elk kill with a 338, that I couldn't have killed with a 708... and to be upfront on real world experience... my 338 killed four elk the first year I had it late 90s, as it was the new 'flavor' in my arsenal. It's killed some since and my nephew killed one last year with it because that's the gun he used when he was 12 on his first.

There is no issue with shooting an elk with a 708 or shooting a coues with a 338... I've been involved/witnessed both.

Dead is dead...

Kent

I have one instance, out of 56 elk I've shot, where I'm 80% sure the 338 killed an elk when a 7-08 likely wouldnt have.

Thought I could squeeze a shot between some trees and hit the tree an elk was standing about 10 feet behind.

The .338 250 grain partition went through the lodgepole, busted a shoulder and exited. Dumped the elk right there.

Buzz, a Barnes TTSX obviously would've been better for that application.

Seriously though, I know for a fact that you wouldn't have gotten that elk with a .30-30 and a 150 Core-lokt. Don't ask me how I know that though.

Cool story, Buzz. An exception, not the "norm" story. Cool picks.

Thanks for sharing! Truly a "brush busting" or better yet a Paul Buynan shot!

I'm thinking a 140 or 160 TTSX or a 175 PT from a 7-08 would have done the job just fine.

Very cool! Not your average shot but not totally unnormal in the timber. Great pictures and story.

Killed a bull one day in Eastern Oregon, he was following along behind a group of cows. Broad side 150 yards standing above me looking at me as I was crossing the draw. One shot and he slid down the hill to great me. While dressing him I noticed the Three (3, fresh 6mm caliber bullets in his rear quarters. They would have killed him but he was already far away, from where he would have been recovered.I have made that same shot with my 300 Win mag,with the 180 PT, a few times. All were dead within a hundred yards or so.

While I was sitting in a patch of Lodgepole on the boundary of Harriman State Park (NE Idaho) one opening morning. Heard shooting off in the distance, and later two young bulls, came walking by. One was obviously injured so I shot him. He was also hit in the rear but the bullet had angled out. Again my WM, would have stopped that animal much closer.

Near Fort Rock Oregon, back in the day, my dad shot a very, very nice mule deer buck standing 100 yards or so away looking at us over his rear end. Dad popped him with an 06 stuffed with 180 Gr. PT's right in the rear end and he went down. While skinning him we found (3) 6 mm caliber bullets just inches from his spine. He had gotten away from that hunter.

I think these instances will help make my point. I have a couple of more but one involving a 7 X 57, and a 300 B. But I don't want to beat a dead horse. Like Buzz, I have been around a lot of dead elk, and also a lot of hunters. Do your self a favor, use as much gun that you can shoot accurately. Not every shot will be perfect and a little extra insurance is always good.

What was the 'point'? I don't get it.....

Why someone would shoot an elk in the arse is beyond me. Too much good eating wasted.

Well Kevin and huntsman. Many of the seasons where I typically hunt are short, and you are lucky to get one shot at an animal in several years. Most will not pass no matter what cartridge they are shooting, or the shot presented. So the point is to bring enough gun to the table,to get the job done, and put the animal down, rather than risk a wounded animal, getting away. Rather than planning to "only" take the perfect shot.

You must be very old.

You now have enough bullets to make a necklace. You can wear it while making your magnum pitchman speeches to the un-washed. Just finger it every once in a while, to really drive those ol' 'points' home....

OR should be, to learn how to fugging shoot?......

HAH!

Funny how a hard 7mm bullet can destroy front shoulders causing DRTs... but them rear shoulders are tougher...

Kent

Jeff?

ETA- does blue tape on the muzzle hinder one's chances of getting a good ass shot?

]



After using my keen 'Sherlock Holmes-like' powers off deduce-ability, think it is only obvious that somewhere up in elkmens country there is a wimmin or chillun running around in the woods with a 243/6mm with a cartridge capacity of three, that likes to shoot critters in the azz. And then they like to herd them over the hill to dad and them, so they can blast away once every few years with the ol' magnums and get some meat. And souveniers to make necklaces outta, to boot. Since everyone knows, that 243/6mm is only fit for girls and kids, tell me that I'm wrong here.......

Bingo!

I want to know if those bullets were sent to forensics to determine if they came from the same gun.

Kent

The old man isn't saying you can't kill elk with 243's, and since he probably hunts a few states every Fall for elk, he is able to see more elk than the average guy that gets to hunt one season in one state. I am pretty sure shot placement trumps caliber everytime along with bringing the right bullet to task. You can't really hammer on a guy that has taken a ton of elk. I don't believe anybody ever looks for a rear end shot, but I think they happen. Not many will post they have made a crap shot, but a bad shot is bad no matter how it happens, but I'd rather have that shot that blows thru the animal, leaving blood on the ground to end the rodeo as fast as possible.

Either way, since I have been a Marine, it has been a free country, so we get to pick what we want to hunt elk with. Again, we won't change anybodys opinion on this here Google box, but it is an opinion and I can't see how he would be wrong recommending a larger caliber for elk if your able to shoot it well.

The reality is few carry and shoot a magnum well, and that's why nonmagnums far outnumber them in elk killed every year.

This thread is about the 7mm08... and inevitably it's compared to a 338 by magnum shooters thinking they know how to kill better than others because of their 338.

That's ignorant.

Kent

"That's ignorant.", I agree.

"shot placement trumps caliber every time", I also agree.

If the old 30/30 and its black powder predecessors can do it, a 7-08 sure can.

I think those who used the 30/30, etc. 80 plus years ago weren't ignorant enough to think you can buy hunting skill with a bigger gun or any other hunting tool. One of the farces that our prosperous society seems to have a lot of is that of buying yourself into being a better person...and I'm not just talking guns.

Older Brother once bet a 160g Grand Slam from my 7mm RM wouldn't go through the center of a pine tree about a foot in diameter. He lost...

Shot my first elk in 1961. Between myself, my dad and a couple of other part time hunters, we have accounted for well over a 100 elk kills in 4 states. About a third or so of these with non-magnums. From up close in the dark timber to out over 500 yards. Adding a 150 or so deer to that, gives one a pretty good data base, don't you think? I will continue to post as my experience in the field dictates.

KRP
Actually Wayne Van Zwoll has done a little research on popular elk calibers. At RMEF gatherings he has in the past handed out forms and gathered cartridge sales data, from the manufactures. The last time I chatted with him (4) years back his data showed that the most popular elk cartridge was the 30:06 a close second and third were the 300 WM and the 7 mm Mag. Whether or not this is still the case I am not sure, but it is interesting info !

I disagree. Guys that don't shoot magnums well don't shoot standard cartridges well either.

There is no secret to shooting a magnum well. To shoot a magnum well you have to "want to" and burn powder. The same as any standard cartridge.

Dink

I agree to an extent. It depends on whether or not the guy doesn't shoot well because he just doesn't shoot well, or if he is being distracted by the recoil of the rifle he's shooting.

For example, I've seen guys that shoot a .243 a lot better than they shoot a 7mm Rem Mag, but that's because they have no mental distractions or fear of recoil from the .243, like they do the 7RM.

But if we're talking about two cartridges that recoil very similarly, like a .30-06 and a 7mm Rem Mag, then if you can't shoot one, you won't be able to shoot the other, either.

Wrong.

is there any way I can setup a filter to weed out these pissing match threads? I always get sucked into them, and end up watching the drama, and it always ends up the same way.

everybody pissed off, convinced the other guy's a moron and they are genius, know-it-alls?

everyone speaks in absolutes, and is right in their own minds, and perhaps.... there alone.....

funny databit..... 80% of drivers believe they are "above average" drivers. Just think about it....

I know lots of guys that can shoot small calibers rifles fine but can't shoot bigger caliber rifles worth a schit. I think it's because they can let the small calibers rifles kinda float I guess you could say on their shoulders and don't pull them tight but big caliber rifles they know they have to pull tighter which makes any little movement worse. Granted they could get over it with practice but it doesn't matter to them because they still tip stuff over with smaller rifles

I love elk killing threads.

I am right.

Shooting a magnum rifle (anything short of true dangerous game rifles) is a mental game. Guys shoot smaller caliber rifles well because they read and are told they should shoot them well.

I guarantee if one could get posted/printed enough that a 8LB .243 recoils to violently to shoot well most people would shoot one poorly. People like to believe certain things and most don't shoot enough to find out for themselves.

All a rifle has to have is a little recoil and a little blast and people will start to believe it will hurt them.

Dink

I love those 80%ers...

You're out of line sir.

You are wrong.

I've seen this dozens of times. Guy can't shoot his magnum. Switches to a smaller rifle. Shoots a few rounds. Realizes it doesn't hurt. Kills an animal.

That's alright though, you are wrong far more often than you're right. Your theory is completely bullschit anyway, as plenty is written about how 300 Mags are quite shootable, and other such nonsense.

I don't like to shoot obnoxious rifles and have learned I really don't need to.

If you would quit hanging with guys that shoot only one box of ammo per year you would soon find out for yourself. People that burn lots of powder can shoot anything they want.

Keep spewing your bullchit though. Plenty of guys like you want to believe it. If you told those same guys their cartridge was the best they would shoot them as well (or as bad) as they do the smaller caliber rifle. Cause if you tell the truth when they switch rifles they are still pizz poor shots.

Dink

Bahahaha.

So what you're saying is that High Power shooters should switch to 300 Ultra Mags. The cartridge would really perform at long range, and since the competitors shoot them a lot, they would perform just as well as their 6XCs and such. Huh, wonder why that doesn't happen?

Dumbazz.

thank you...

This thread is another .243 vs .25-06 in the making.

243.

25/06 sucks.

You need to be more rounded........




And by that I mean GFY.

No stupid that's not what I am saying.

If a competitor decides he wants to HUNT (this is a hunting forum) with a 300 RUM he will certainly be capable of it. It won't maim him or put him in the hospital. All he will have to do is want to hunt with it. He will kill as much game with his 300 RUM as he would anything else.

But giving a guy that hunts a 6XC will not make him a competitor. He will have burn some powder to be competitive.

If one guy shoots his 300 RUM ten times a year and another guy shoots his 6XC ten times a year both will be pizz poor shots. If you give the 300 RUM shooter the 6XC it will not miraculously make him a rifle shot.

Read that slow and often stupid.

Dink

243 can take a lick off my bag

Too much gun?

So how much does one have to shoot before he can consider himself capable of going hunting?

You sir are out of line.

Funny thing is, I've NEVER seen anyone who could shoot a 300 Mag as well as they could a 223. Funny how that works.

I shot a 25/06 once.

Then Dike says you can't kill or shoot well. Just ask her.

I got your back on this one, Dike.

Like BGG got your back?

He brought enough gun.........



and fur.




Don't be a hater.

Your confusing accuracy differences with shooting ability.

If one owns a 223 and a 300 mag that are equal in accuracy they should shoot them both the same.

If they shoot shoot the 223 better it's only because of what's between their ears.

Dink

I have no doubt you spend a lot of your time behind guys.

I am good though. Please stay to the front.

Dink

Nope. You're 100% wrong there. This is exactly why competitors in many different events gravitate to smaller rounds. Less recoil and noise makes a rifle easier to shoot better.

Sure.
Blow me?

Oh boy...

So you have a 223 that you shoot better than a 300 and both of are equal accuracy?


Dink

Just go back to truck stop. Did you get banned from there again?

Dink

You wanted me in front.


You're smart.
Move to Oregon.
It gets better.

I don't have a use for a 300 Mag, as I don't hunt T-Rex.

Why have 1000 yard shooters gone from 30 caliber magnums to smaller rounds?

I was doing a homeowner concrete job. Big guy and he started talking hunting. Seems he was drawn for elk here in az and heard he needed a 338 over his 3006. He sighted it in and it hurt him. He hunted it and wounded an elk. Went home for the 3006 and killed an elk.

Wanted to know if I wanted a 338 for part of the work.

I said I'd add some extra for it. He agreed... cost me 80 bucks in extra material and not much extra labor.

Almost new ruger 77 tang.

I had no problem shooting it and I'm a small guy... but no one else I knew could. So I braked it and it killed elk by family and friends. 7 different people have killed with it.

Problem is it's heavy and hard to carry... and the worst rodeos I've had were caused by it's difficulty for the average shooter to shoot when on an animal.

Secondly it didn't kill any better even on good hits than my 06 with barnes... or my 270 with NPs, or my 7X57 with barnes, or my 308 with GMX... or my 708 with 120 nbt. Bad hits were just a big mess.

The vast majority of folks can't shoot a 338. But many hear the BS on hunting sites and try. My policy now is to have a hunter shoot all my guns and decide which one they like. I've been successful and no messes for the last 10 years.

My nephew used the 338 last year, started reloading and it's a good gun for him.

Kent

I don't like the big guns, have a tendency to flinch. Sure wish someone would tell my wife I need to practice more, she thinks I spend too much on those 8 lbers of powder and big stocks of bullets.

Agreed.


Dike don't flinch. Ever.

I never said you needed a 300 mag for anything.

Again we are not talking 1000 yard games. Even though there are still a lot of 1000 yard shooters using 30 caliber or even 33 magnum.

Dink

Alright, then show me an example of where more recoil is better, and where shooters would be better off with a larger gun. The 1000 yard competition example I brought up is but one of many, btw.

What I'm getting at is not that one should use a 223. Or that competitive shooting is the same as shooting elk. What I'm saying is that folks don't shoot big guns as well as smaller ones. Will that make a difference on an elk? It does hundreds if not thousands of times every season.

Because you don't have to kill a target.

Taken completely out of context. Congratulations, you have made a virtual career of the tactic.

Bullsh**. The context is the 7-08 and elk.

Is the 7-08 a 1000 yard elk rifle?

Bonus points for talking about internet "tactics" and careers though.

PS, when you brought up 1000 yard shooting, you did it while talking about hunting:

Bullschit! We were discussing the downsizing in cartridges in competition. I'm sorry that reading comprehension is so difficult for you.

1000 yard elk shots should be phugging illegal, and if I saw you take such a shot in the field I would bend your rifle barrel over your frigging head.

Ah, so now you're the ethics police? Good to know.

When you brought up 1000 yard shots, it was in the context of hunting (see my post above).

And if you tried to bend my rifle over my head, you'd have to pull it out of your ass first, because that's where it'd be.

See that little space between the sentences? That's called a paragraph break. It means a different subject is being discussed.

Like I said, if I ever saw you try that stupid schit in the field, you would be a hurting unit.

GFY. Ethics police on the internet.

Is that above the pay grade of mall ninja?

PSS: When did I ever say I'd shoot an elk at 1000 yards, ass-wipe.

You need to chill. Then GFY.

What I am saying is guys that don't shoot big guns well won't shoot small guns well either.

Those guys would wound/miss just as many elk with a 243, 25-06 or 270. They refuse to shoot.

Dink

Dink, most people will shoot a smaller round like the .308 family better than a magnum. That's just a fact.

Grown men fighting about stupid schitt...again.
I know, I know.....GFM.

You're right. it's stupid schitt. But I don't think you can call it grown men fighting, it's the internet.

Pretty much.

Dink is wrong.
7-08 is viable elk medicine.
Goat likes em in close.

Did I miss anything?

RMEF or any critter org banquet is not a representation of the average hunter, they are a representation of their board and lesser their members. And I have never seen statistics of a magnum breaking into the top 5 of centerfire sales. 7 mag may be 6 or 7, though taking away the 223 and 3030, it may be 4 or 5 in elk guns used currently.

3006/270/308 vs 7mag/300wm/338wm out in the field on an elk hunt... if you've been in many elk camps you know which group dominates.

Kent

There are three reasons I can think of.

1. After the first shot(s), the elk is possibly ore even known to be wounded and the hunter follows a philosophy shared by many of shooting it until it is down and stays there. The only shot opportunity presented may be a bad angle or a full-on THS. Distasteful as some find taking such shots, losing some meat is better than losing the whole animal, which is an all too often occurrence.

2. The shot to the rear is the result of an animal moving but was not the intended placement.

3. The other is that some folks just can�t resist taking what may be the only shot opportunity they get. Apparently their philosophy is some meat is better than none.

At times I�ve been guilty of both #2 and #3 and would rather be guilty of #1 than lose a possibly wounded animal.

Back in the early 1980�s I took my first elk after first anchoring it with a 160g slug to the right rear hip, the only area where I had a clear shot. That was the only such shot I�ve taken intentionally but it did exactly what I wanted, slowing and stopping the bull so the cows cleared, giving me a clear broadside to the chest area a few seconds later. (7mm RM, 160g Grand Slam, ~100 yards.)

A few years back I took a quartering shot at a mulie buck. It stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. The bullet hit the right ham and proceeded to penetrate to the sternum. It was clearly a case of �enough gun� even though placement was far from what was intended. (7mm RM, 140g North Fork, ~150 yards.)

Back to the original topic, if we can take a break from the cackling...

Me daughter shot an elk with that load last year. She loves the rifle and kills stuff dead. The first shot was 100 and the second shot at 150-200yds. We didn't find either bullet. It was really tough meat, too... I got a cow tag this year.

Admittedly I am a throwback compared to my hunting pard, so just speaking as to personal preferences here. I like more destruction in critter than we saw, but the elk was indeed very dead. Just saying that for all you "very dead" guys. And though am not a scientist, I wager velocity and weight in applicable bullet has something to do with tissue destruction. I don't care if critter dies any faster--just want to see an impact or happily gawk at a big wound channel. Would also posit at more extended ranges my destruction desires would not be abated. Further, it seems to me that at 800 yards an elk could take a dump, sniff it and walk off by the time the bullet arrived....but am biased, as do prefer to get much closer, just to say I did.

Back to cackling...after some trials and having read about it from some now dead gunwriters back in the last century, added a pound or two of weight to the mags on hand. It appears to be a reasonable solution to reducing recoil. In the hills, you get the abuse dosage either way...:)

And imho, Dink is just as right as he is wrong...some guys can't shoot very well period, particularly under pressure and time constraints...

I shoot my Weatherby Super VarmintMaster in .223 much better than I shoot my Weatherby Accumark in .300 Wby Mag.

I'm not gay, either. Open minded, sure, but not active or anything.



P

You probably shoot the 223 a lot more than the 300. I have an accurate 300 Vanguard. Nice rifle but it's managed to work its way to the back of the safe.

Not at first, I bought the Accumark a dozen years ago, I've had the .223 for a year and a half, more rounds down the Accumark at this point.


P

Time will tell.

Perhaps one could ask the following hypothetical question.

You are going to get shot at one time.
There will be an ambulance team and a surgical hospital waiting to try to save you within seconds of the shooting.
Which caliber would you choose to get shot at with?
The 223 or a 338? Anyways the 7mm 08 would work good for elk.

Either will give you a non-survivable wound, no matter the medical help available.

Seriously, you're approaching the take-a-knee level of stupidity here..

Follow up question:

Which venereal disease would you most like to contract?



David

sign me up for .223 FMJ and chlamidia, given my druthers.

I think I misspelt chlamidia too, and am okay with that fact.

I should point out that I own (and love) a 7mm-08, but its not what I elk hunt with.

My elk rifle is about half a pound lighter, and is a .358 Win.

That said, I'd not hesitate to use the 7mm-08 on an elk. I definitely shoot it better. (partly cause of the reduced recoil, and partly cause of the rifle heft)

Can I just choose the vessel the venereal disease comes in?

Finally!

I was wondering how long it would take to get this thread back on track.

David

I've been involved in a few elk rodeos and not one was due to caliber or cartridge selection. All were due to operator error before, during and/or after the shot. From archery, 243 to 338 Win.

I thought the 223 was adopted in the military to give survivable wounds so more men were taken off the battlefield. I.E. each wounded man would need two to attend to them. I know the only stupid question is the ones you know the answer too. My bad.
Anyways the 7mm 08 is A OK for elk.

No, the .223 was adopted because GI's couldn't shoot the .338 WM. Or carry hundreds of rounds of ammo. for it.

Good thing you compared the 223 and 338, because about 10 years ago I worked with a guy that was shot at about 300 yards with a 7mm mag. It hit him in the left butt cheek and blew out his hip/pelvis bones. Butt Shot Bruce was in the hospital for about 3 months if I remember right. He even turned down dissability and came back to work at the sawmill.

Sorry, I know this was off topic but most of this thread is anyways. Don't really know if he would have been better or worse with a 7mm-08.

You stupid MOFO. A carpenter pontificating on GSW Tx. Enlighten us all regarding the live-tissue training you've attended and conducted?

Live tissue or not, I would kick your fugging ass in Call of Duty.

Guaranteed.




Travis

Ex-girlfriend?


Travis

I don't doubt that 'cause I don't play dumbazz video games.

Take-a-pee..

A living cornucopia of sig lines.

That's because you don't have what it takes.




Travis

I live with a 12 year old.

You don't want none of this buddy.



Travis

This is a bunch of fuggin BS if there ever was any. Waiting in terror...boy you slurp that liberal chit right up, don't you?

I don't have anything useful to add, other than I haven't killed an elk yet and the next rifle I buy will be a 7-08.

No, but the guy is pretty slow walking with his cane, you could probably catch him if you wanted.

Why would I want to catch a guy that got shot?


Travis

i'm not here to make judgement calls

Very well said Tom. This is how I think about it as well.
Overkill- as in getting that warm fuzzy feeling because you know you are WELL within range...

What are the build spec on your 7mm-08? Looks great.

This thread was an entertaining read, until the bullshit about only guys who can't shoot can't shoot magnums well. Some of you need to read what you've written to see if you actually agree with it.

STS45,

Excellent shooting.

I am very intrigued by the 7MM-08 Rem. It seems to perform like the 7x57. The 7x57 has been killing big game the world over for better than a hundred years. The 7MM-08 is a short-action whereas, I believe, the 7x57 needs a long action.

I firmly believe that the 7MM-08 Rem is be best big game cartridge to come down the pike since the .280 Rem.

There is magic in .284 caliber projectiles.

Classic.

I'm glad I'm able to teach you something; otherwise all you'd know is ATV elk hunting with a .300 Rem Ultra that compensates for your lack of hunting skills.

Show some pix of your skills, soozy..

HuntnShoot,

It's not about shooting magnums well. It's about utility of magnums.

I'm good with what anyone wants to use. However, I have met very few hunters who have been able to shoot magnums well. I have seen hunters flinch like hell while sighting in .300 Win Mag from a bench. I'd bet that you have, too.

One of the best hunters I knew used a custom made .243 Win. He shot a crow out of the air with it. He was probably the be natural shot I knew. While he had other guns, he hunted only with his custom .243 Win. On one deer hunt, he brought only 3 cartridges with him.

People buy magnums for a lot of reasons. But they will not kill any deader than a 7MM-08 Rem provided bullets from either stop oxygenated blood flow to a animal's brain. When that happens, animals WILL die. Biology, not bullets, is controlling.

The absolutely most miserable rifle I have ever fired, and I have fired more that a few magnums, was a .45/70 Guide Gun with max hand loads and 400 grain Speer bullets. I have a feeling that three shots from that gun will have you rethinking big guns in a hurry.

I can't. You might recognize her.

Nothing?

Not surprised...

All a man needs for Elk Hunting in the Timber is a 94 Winchester in 30-30

I think this is a good example of what's known as "projecting."

I agree that magnums are all about utility. I have seen that first-hand. The common talk here at the fire is that shots are unethical past a certain distance. The utility of magnums rarely comes into play within the distance usually named. I've shot several, and I've seen many shot, usually poorly. Not coincidentally, every rodeo that I've seen was due to poor shooting by someone with a magnum of some flavor. And I know and have known of many guys that can shoot big boomers well. Many of those guys are on forums like Long Range Hunting. Many are here.

I admit that at a certain recoil and noise level, practice doesn't make me better; it makes me flinch more. I know where that level is, and I shoot a lot, right up to that level. Every now and then I'll take a few shots with something bigger. I generally shoot those few well. If I go for a few groups, it gets less pretty. I submit that everyone has a recoil tolerance level, and that practice only changes that to a certain point. For some of us, that point is below magnum calibers. That doesn't mean that I am a poor shot. Just that I know my limitations. I wish some others had a desire to know theirs. I for one don't think more power gets it done better, especially if we are talking hunting.

The biggest rodeo in elk hunting I ever saw was a guy shooting a 6mm.. He hit big bull numerous times.. Shooting and chasing for several miles.. The bull finally got across into another unit and fell dead in little draw just out of the shooter's sight.. A spike stood up in a little draw after the last shots.. Our nimrod fired again and hit the spike in the ear!! Lucky for us the warden saw the entire episode... The guy was fined and lost his licenses for three years.. Just because you choose to
shoot a pip squeak rifle doesn't make you a super hunter.. The very best hunters I have known both shot magnums much of the time.

My dad and his best friend hunted with 6mms for almost 2 decades together, each using a 6mm Rem. My dad moved on, but his friend stayed with the 6. Eventually he got each of his 4 boys 6mms. No one ever had any problems hunting elk, deer, antelope, mtn goat. 100 gr Nosler Partitions handloaded. Shooting well is, of course, prerequisite, regardless of caliber. If the guy shooting the bull had hit it well in the vitals on the 1st shot, the bull would not have gone miles.

During the late 70's, I went to Colorado year after year with a family. There were 8 bulls killed with the 7/08 with the lowly 140g Sierra sp flat base. Some of the guys carried 338's, 375's, and one 458 Win.

Killed 2 elk and 2 bison with various 7mm-08's. Works fine.

anyone have a load for the 7-08 and berger 168 VLD?

You jokers are all over gunned.

Based on the lone elk I've killed (cow, @ 150 yds drt) you don't need anything over a .260 with 140 gr. Corelokt factory loads....

I'm fixing to take a moose with it, just because....