I'm interested in pursuing the purchase of a suppressor (silencer)via the trust route. I've been unsuccessful in finding an example of such a trust and the attorneys around here don't have a clue. If anyone has an example of trust that they could email to me I would appreciate a PM.
Thanks
It sounds like Obama just signed an Executive Order pretty much doing away with the trust "loophole". Not sure how it will all work out in the end yet though.
I'm interested in pursuing the purchase of a suppressor (silencer)via the trust route. I've been unsuccessful in finding an example of such a trust and the attorneys around here don't have a clue. If anyone has an example of trust that they could email to me I would appreciate a PM.
Thanks
Here, try this: w-w-w dot g-o-o-g-l-e dot c-o-m
Tried that, found a lot of mentions of trusts but never could find a copy of a trust form.
There was a pretty good thread on this subject a few months back. Have you tried the search here?
Try "Quicken" they have software that has trusts. I believe it is sufficient to use for suppressors. Be aware that if you make a mistake it is a felony and the BATFE is not interested in excuses or apologies! A lawyer who has experience in trusts would be an worthwhile investment if you do not know what you are doing? You can also contact a Class III dealer and see if the have any information that may help you in your quest for a "trust".
Here, try this: w-w-w dot g-o-o-g-l-e dot c-o-m
If you want to google everything, what's the point of even coming to a page like this? Ass.
Your NFA dealer should have everything you need. If he doesn't, find another one.
http://www.stecklaw.com/Not in Oregon so he may not be able to do it for you but he can probably find a colleague or at least point you in the right direction with basic information. I served in Iraq with this guy, he's a good man. I know he's done a trust for a close friend that went to the desert with us.
It sounds like Obama just signed an Executive Order pretty much doing away with the trust "loophole". Not sure how it will all work out in the end yet though.
and I just spent some money to do one for the family... and the [bleep], someone ought to.......
It sounds like Obama just signed an Executive Order pretty much doing away with the trust "loophole". Not sure how it will all work out in the end yet though.
and I just spent some money to do one for the family... and the [bleep], someone ought to.......
90-day comment period though. Might slip through.
Wish I could sue that [bleep] for what he costs me at times.
Tried that, found a lot of mentions of trusts but never could find a copy of a trust form.
You won't find a cookie cutter standardized form/approach to forming a trust of this nature.
There are too many issues.
Obama may blather all he wants, but trusts can still own firearms.
I'd talk to your sheriff and see if he'll sign off on a silencer before going the trust route. I could've went under my corporation but it was so simple getting the sheriff to sign off.
when i finally go through the hoops to get a suppressor i want to go the trust route for the simple fact i can name my wife and brother and anyone else i want as members then they can also legally use it without me being present....my sheriff would sign off on me getting one so that end isnt a worry....
I can understand that but just wanted to say that while some won't sign off on machine guns, supressors can be a different story. It never hurts to ask and I know a few who are still waiting to get their trust' done, I would suggest getting on with it before they do eliminate the trust route or go up on the tax which has never been increased.
How old do your kids have to be to take a suppressor by themselves?
Our sheriff will not only sign the paperwork, he'll have is secretary mail it for you! How's that for "protect and serve"??
How old do your kids have to be to take a suppressor by themselves?
I think legal ownership age is 21. Don't know how that translates to possession though.
I'm interested in pursuing the purchase of a suppressor (silencer)via the trust route. I've been unsuccessful in finding an example of such a trust and the attorneys around here don't have a clue. If anyone has an example of trust that they could email to me I would appreciate a PM.
Thanks
I know two people who've used Quicken for living trusts, successfully.
http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/th...-Quicken-Willmaker-to-purchase-NFA-items
I can understand that but just wanted to say that while some won't sign off on machine guns, supressors can be a different story. It never hurts to ask and I know a few who are still waiting to get their trust' done, I would suggest getting on with it before they do eliminate the trust route or go up on the tax which has never been increased.
Local one to a a friend will sign full auto but refuses to sign for suppressors. Go figure.
when i finally go through the hoops to get a suppressor i want to go the trust route for the simple fact i can name my wife and brother and anyone else i want as members then they can also legally use it without me being present....my sheriff would sign off on me getting one so that end isnt a worry....
If you go the trust route, you do not need a sheriff to sign off.
A good NFA dealer will take care of the trust paperwork for you.
Yes, I have more than one suppressor that is on a trust.
i know that, was just pointing out that my sheriff isnt a reason i would go that way.....its cause both my wife and my brother would be using them alot aswell so easier to do it this way and stay legal if we arent all together....
I just paid an attorney to write one for me. It is more complicated than just a standard trust and I would expect to pay for it. If you get one for nothing, you will have a trust worth exactly what you paid for it. An NFA dealer is not an attorney. If he has some type of trust documents, he either got them for free off the internet (see above comments) or he paid an attorney to draft them, which means he's not giving them to you for free.
Felonies are nothing to screw with. NFA felonies are exactly what Obama wants. Please be careful and consult an attorney that knows something about NFA trusts. They ARE NOT the same as regular trusts. PM me for the name and contact information of the attorney I used. (He's a hunter, shooter and all around gun nut)
Fast Ed
Damn shame they are changing the laws after I dropped almost 500 bucks on a trust.
But I'm putting more than NFA on the trust. Figuring possible loophole in the future, if a trust owns deer rifles, it may not be illegal as an individual owning them at least for a while.
When they come for the deer rifles.
ha. Yours were stolen too?
I know a sheriff who also uses a trust :-)
Obama aside it's the way to go.
Mike
Call your Congressman and complain about the "decree" also
The only thing Obama did, so far, was introduce an idea for public comment. My attorney tells me that this proposal would screw up ALL trusts and not just the NFA trusts. He doesn't think it will go anywhere because all the rich and powerful have trusts and don't care if the peons like us put our silencers in them. This is just lip service from the liar-in-chief and my attorney's opinion is that it is already a dead issue. YMMV
Fast Ed
Damn shame they are changing the laws after I dropped almost 500 bucks on a trust.
But I'm putting more than NFA on the trust. Figuring possible loophole in the future, if a trust owns deer rifles, it may not be illegal as an individual owning them at least for a while.
When they come for the deer rifles.
No law has been changed. It's all bullschit.
Speak to any attorney or Class III dealer worth a damn and they will tell you to move forward.
Travis
Yep, thanks for the input, just did, and thats what they say. Say in TX even if it changes, the governor is going to appoint someone that upsurps the LEO stuff and signs all requests. in case your local LEO is a dick.
Fast Ed, you need a new attorney.
Deflave, you actually think a Class III dealer is going to tell you not to move forward and buy something? LMAO
Yes there is a rule change that will take affect in December, anyone that tells you differently is an idiot.
Now, how your state and/or local Sheriff's handle that change may be different, but there will be a change. You will no longer be able to send in a form 4 using a trust without some type of additional background check and state/local countersign.
The only real question is whether BATFE will try to say all form 4's in the mill will be subject to the new rules when they are approved or whether they will start with applications dated/received after the rule change.
Fast Ed, you need a new attorney.
Deflave, you actually think a Class III dealer is going to tell you not to move forward and buy something? LMAO
Yes there is a rule change that will take affect in December, anyone that tells you differently is an idiot.
Now, how your state and/or local Sheriff's handle that change may be different, but there will be a change. You will no longer be able to send in a form 4 using a trust without some type of additional background check and state/local countersign.
The only real question is whether BATFE will try to say all form 4's in the mill will be subject to the new rules when they are approved or whether they will start with applications dated/received after the rule change.
Ok. Show us.
Travis
Well, i have paid in full and will transmit all documents to the dealer this Monday, and we will see what happens.
The back ground checks are not that big of a deal, but where one of my trustees lives, the CLEO wont' sign suppressors. Will for Class 3 though... go figure.
The other trustee is USMC... that can be a pain in the azz....
This government should do what Travis proclaims regularly.
I may be more selfish than most but my friends and relatives can go buy their own. My kids can transfer mine when I die. If I don't take it all with me...
Yeah, maybe so. I have good friends that we borrow things too... and can't do that without the paperwork.
As to the kids, I hate to force them to pay more. Its about having stuff left over for the family, after you are gone, at least it has been with our family.
To each their own but I try to make it as easy as I can.
Right now, FWIW, the inlaws did not get their mother to divy up the land and money when they should have, and she is about to go nursing home with a LOT of money and land value, at least from where they are its a lot. It'll all go down the tube at 50K a year for a nursing home. NOT the way the parents should imagine it...
Anything that gives .gov more money is a waste. Anotehr 200 buck transfer fee when its already been paid once is the same.
I may be more selfish than most but my friends and relatives can go buy their own. My kids can transfer mine when I die. If I don't take it all with me...
Well the way I view it, is if I am out hunting with my friend or my son, they can have it with them or use it if we get separated. No legal issues and I like that.
Travis
Understood but if I'm not mistaken, one of my kids can transfer mine for $5 when I'm gone.
I just haven't been one to borrow much and the few times I've loaned stuff out hasn't worked out that well. But I do have two friends that are welcome to anything in my safe except the can.
I just didn't feel like the trust was the way to go for me. I may try the corporation route on my next one but I don't have any issues with them on me.
I know what you mean. I'm speaking strictly in the sense of worst case scenarios.
Like "Hey, I'm gonna drag these out on the sled, take the rifles and go get the truck."
Just seems to make sense for me. Most of the weapons in this house are pooled as the kids get older.
Travis
How old do your kids have to be to take a suppressor by themselves?
I think legal ownership age is 21. Don't know how that translates to possession though.
They can't wander off into the woods with it by themselves. Unless they've received it as beneficiaries or trustees, they can't possess it outside of your presence. They can't receive it via act of law until they're old enough. Conceivably, this could be at 18. NFA prohibits transfers from NFA dealers until 21 (form 4s), but you can form 1 or receive by act of law (form 5,etc) at 18 I believe. Bottom line, they have to be age appropriate beneficiaries after the grantor is dead, or trustees while you're still alive to possess it on their own. They definitely can't have it on their own below 18/21.
Understood but if I'm not mistaken, one of my kids can transfer mine for $5 when I'm gone.
I just haven't been one to borrow much and the few times I've loaned stuff out hasn't worked out that well. But I do have two friends that are welcome to anything in my safe except the can.
I just didn't feel like the trust was the way to go for me. I may try the corporation route on my next one but I don't have any issues with them on me.
The trust gives you the option to let someone use them if you decide to trust them later on.
The good part, they stay locked in my safe, regardless of the trust, unless I am the one that decides another trustee can use em.
Nothing like being prepared, in case things change.
Thank you for sharing this. I hope I have time tomorrow to read the law, not just the confusing summaries.
I wanted to go through a trust but I wanted my cans so bad that I just went through the normal paperwork,background check, fingerprints, and CLEO signature.
Figured that I could always do the trust afterwards since I already have them in my possession.
Just get your cans and worry about the formalities later.....shooting is a lot more enjoyable with them on.
You always want to be near them while in transport to and from and in the field. Lord forbid that you run into a LEO with a hard on for the rules....
Good luck guys, you won't regret doing it.
For what it's worth, all of the class III DEALERS I've dealt with were heads above the normal FFL guys I've felt with. Get one that's been around awhile, well worth your time and efforts.
Lets see, the trust took me a WEEK to get.... wow that didn't take long at all. And was effective as soon as signed/notarized etc....
That wouldn't slow down the suppressors at all IMHO. well other than a week...
silencer shop in Austin tx.. has very good website.. with all the pro's and con's....
www.silencershop.com i'll have my trust in hand by tomorrow and orders on the way ...
silencer shop in Austin tx.. has very good website.. with all the pro's and con's....
www.silencershop.com i'll have my trust in hand by tomorrow and orders on the way ...
Silencer Shop is the real deal! They are great to work with!
If you need a trust, this is thr attorney that I used for mine! Hes a great guy, and an avid shooter James N. Willi
[email protected]www.willi.comStay low,
Calvin
Thats who I"m using. Wish I had enough cash for a 50 cal can too, before the possible change of all this crap.
I wanted to go through a trust but I wanted my cans so bad that I just went through the normal paperwork,background check, fingerprints, and CLEO signature.
Figured that I could always do the trust afterwards since I already have them in my possession.
Just get your cans and worry about the formalities later.....shooting is a lot more enjoyable with them on.
You always want to be near them while in transport to and from and in the field. Lord forbid that you run into a LEO with a hard on for the rules....
Good luck guys, you won't regret doing it.
For what it's worth, all of the class III DEALERS I've dealt with were heads above the normal FFL guys I've felt with. Get one that's been around awhile, well worth your time and efforts.
Another $200 stamp for each suppressor to transfer from an individual to a trust. I didn't go the trust route. My son will know what he needs to do to get a free transfer after I'm gone. But he'll have to have the background check, wait, etc.
huh? unless you already own them without, and that I could understand.
But I'd never buy one without a trust. To start with.
I think you've noted you don't want your son with the papers now, and trust NO one else. Kind of a shame, but life can be like that, I totally understand.
In that case, its a no brainer.
My understanding is if you own a suppressor and have obtained a tax stamp as an individual that the trust (i.e.: you) would have to pay for another stamp to transfer that same suppressor to the trust.
Not sure what you're talking about as far as me not trusting anyone else. My son is 10 years old. My only point is that the suppressors are not under a trust now and when I die, my heir can obtain them without paying $200 each for another stamp. They will be transferred tax exempt on a Form 5 according to the will. The executor will sign for the estate.
It is a no brainer for me to NOT spend another $200 each to transfer suppressors that I already own to a trust so I can continue to own what I already own.
Only deal with tax-exempt transfer on a Form 5 to an heir is that the heir must undergo the background check. But if my son can't pass the background check, he probably doesn't need the suppressor anyway.
ETA: It appears that the Executive Order will force the trustee to undergo the same background check as an individual. So I don't really see any difference in transferring on a Form 5 to an heir versus changing trustees from you to your heir under a trust. If there is a difference, please explain. I do understand that you may have the ability under a trust to have more than one individual have use of the suppressor�..but I'd rather not have anyone using my suppressor unless I'm around anyway.
What I meant was yes, I'm aware you already have em now, and your son is too young, and since you don't trust a friend or such either, there is no real reason to go trust.
I have good friends that are like family on my trust as I"ve mentioned. They can use as needed, but only IF I allow, IE its at my safe all the time anyway. And makes it less hassle to me when they have hogs and the like, I can give them the suppressor, and they use and when done...
If I'd bought suppressors without a trust to start with like you did, then as I've noted, I really probably wouldn't be wanting to spend 200 more bucks either.
Be interested in how long it takes your approval. I've read a report that one guy was turned down due to adding a friend on his trust. Of course others have said they had no issues.
Will of course let us all know when it comes in.
I have no clue why a trust would have to involve a family member, and the attorney didn't say a thing about it.
Now I didn't "add" a friend, the trust was complete with myself and wife and then 4 non relatives to me, 2 nephews and 2 best friends I trust with my life. The friends are not whatever its called, IE will recieve upon our death, but the nephews are. The friends are use only.
WHO is on it should never matter. FWIW background checks don't bother me in the least as I've been through the reamer on those numbers of times. But the fact that a local LEO could then say even though you have a spotless record(unless you count a speeding ticket around 1986) but I still don't wnat you to have something you qualify for.. thats the kicker of part of it. Plus the fact of being able to loan a suppressor out.
And of course WHY suppressors are not common non regulated everyday thing is BEYOND me totally...
Plugging .gov is ridiculous often.
Jeff
Supressors should be available over the counter or at least pay the tax after your first stamp and walk out with it.
It's a shame they take so long. I was told the wait is now 10 months, what did they tell you?
I never asked about the wait, it'll be what it is, filed electronically and so on. Kind of like asking lead time on a Krieger or Mc Millan, if you have to ask, you waited to long to order...
IIRC it was around 10 months about a year ago for my buddy. But I may remember that wrong.
It's a shame they take so long. I was told the wait is now 10 months, what did they tell you?
They've been quoting anywhere from 9-15mo lately for paper forms.
I have one at about 9 months right now...on a trust (gulp).
Some lucky people as of late August or so have e-filed and been used as part of ATF's live tests of the new e-file system, getting approved inside of 2-3 months! But I don't expect that to last long. However, if this trust rule changes, I expect that new order volume will collapse quickly and those few who can get CLEO signatures will have very short waits.
I've got a SWR Octane 45HD in the system now. Purchased 01/22/2013, forms mailed 02/01/2013, check cashed 03/22/2013, pending 05/21/2013. Sure would be a nice Christmas present!
I"m generally and still am patient, but I"m betting this is all a game IMHO. They just see how long they can make folks wait.
Would be just like the [bleep] administration.