Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer- can you tell me about Berger bullets?

BBerg,

I've seen a bunch of animals taken with the 168 and 185 .30 caliber VLD's, and really can't tell any difference in terminal peformance, whether the cartridge was a standard or a magnum. The same statement might even include the 140 6.5mm, and maybe even the 115 .25. They all make a big hole in internal organs.

The "problem" with VLD's among people who've never used them is that VLD's really DO work differently than other bullets. They do NOT start to expand when they hit skin, as do Ballistic Tips or GameKings or the other bullets some people keep comparing to VLD's.

Instead VLD's penetrate a couple of inches before they expand. Thus they are INSIDE a deer before expansion takes place. Only then to they violently expand, often coming completely apart, and tear up the inner organs.

Most people simply cannot get their heads around this, partly because of the recent conviction among many hunters that high retained weight is the secret to "killing power." This complete misunderstanding of what VLD's are about (or, at a certain level, what actually kills animals) leads many people to insist on using heavier VLD's, or even the target VLD's that don't open up as easily. The heavier bullets aren't necessary for killing game, and the VIRTUE of the hunting VLD's is their violent, near-complete expansion.

My experience is that even the lighter VLD's will tear a much bigger hole in the vitals than any other expanding bullet, even Sierra MatchKings. I suspect this is because VLD's have a softer core than MatchKings--but for whatever reason, they do make an enormous hole in the innards of animals. Using slightly heavier VLD's won't guarantee extra penetration, unless there's a HUGE diffrence in weight. Even then the extra weight will never turn them into deep penetrators. And using a target VLD with a heavier jacket negates the exact action that makes VLD's such quick killers.

Now, using heavier VLD's does increase the ballistic coefficient, which is why long-range shooters tend to pick the heavier weights. But at ranges out to 400 or 500 yards there isn't much difference in trajectory, and in fact the lighter bullets may shoot flatter because they can be started faster.

...........Pass throughs would depend on a few things. On my hogs, I have found exit holes from fragmentation on the opposite side on more than a few occasions. On my bull elk last year, there was fragmentation found on the opposite of impact just below the hide with no exit wound. The bull staggered two to four yards and then dropped. So why the need for an exit wound or pass through? Wasn`t needed.

As Burnsie will probaly tell you too when using the VLDs, I`m not concerned with pass throughs, bullet weight retentions, bullet recoveries etc and dealing with all of that. The VLDs don`t kill in the conventional way where one needs to be concerned with exit holes, weight rententions, bullet recoveries and such. My version of bullet success, is not based on any of the above. It is based on just one thing or question. "If I place my shot well and do my part, do I have a dead animal?

My concerns are achieving the quickest kills possible, thereby reducing my tracking distance and tracking times down to a minimum. Reducing the run distances after impact, automatically reduces the tracking time. Those are are the top priorities.

As a potential VLD user for the first time like yourself, as well as all who were at one time who now use them, you really need to think outside the conventional box of wisdom when it comes to the nore traditional bullet characteristics after impact.

Sakoluvr, after reading Rifle Bullets, then JB's article on his New Zealand hunt with Bergers, I decided to give them a try. Loaded up the Rem 700 .25-06 with Retumbo and 115's, sighted the rifle in at 300 yards and took it hunting.

Three mule deer at 175, 230 & 400 yards. All three dropped at the first shot. The 230 yard buck required a finishing shot, because I'd been above it and spined that particular deer, but didn't kill it. JB's description of the damage inflicted is accurate. Tiny entrance hole. Penetration through ribs or shoulder blade then absolute devastation of the heart, lungs and the major blood vessels inside the chest cavity. Likely no exit. Doesn't matter. Each deer dropped instantly upon being hit. Pretty darned fine bullets for deer. Not likely to recover much. The biggest chunk of bullet I recovered weighed 33 grains, mostly base jacket with a little lead left in it.

BTW - they're rough on coyotes too.

Regards, Guy

sako - i have a pregarcia sako .222 mannlicher i like. nice coyote rifle. i shot a big record book rocky with 168 7mm mag, 296 yards it did n ot pass through. with the 300 the only thing i have shot are 210's at paper at 1000 yards. i say they will be awesome

Sweet .222! I have an old pre-72 Bofors Steel .308 Mannlicher

Thank you very much for your explanation.

I understand the killing mechanism of the Bergers, and I am not looking to use the heavier bullets, nor trying to convert them into a super-penetrrator. Quite on the contrary, I am looking to use the lighter-for-the-caliber ones as my idea is that a higher impact velocity might enhance its fragmentation and its capacity to destroy more tissue.

I am surprised the heavy-for-the-caliber Bergers like 180gr 7mm (!) is what most people use, and I wanted to know what was behind that (wrong) idea.

BBerg

I too prefer lighter bullets driven faster. I have a friend that has moved to the Berger camp. He shoots the heavy bullets too which I have yet to comprehend. After having hunted with a 220 Swift for several years I am a firm believer in the Roy Weatherby concept of hypervelocity. I have seen it work too many times.

I believe the hypervelocity (not sure if that's really the right term) is the driving factor behind the 220 Swift's effectiveness. THe bullet is driven so fast it is probably barely staying together in flight, and once it strikes the target it simply disintegrates like a Smart Bomb. Berger has been able to capture this concept in a sort of reverse engineering and deliver a product that can transform nearly any cartridge into the same terminal effectiveness as the 220 Swift as well as other cartridges highly spoken of like the 257 Wby.

I plan to try some Berger 155's in my 308 Winchester.

dave

This is purely anecdotal and I don't what it's worth except I came around to thinking the guy was on to something.

A couple of years ago I was elk hunting and met a guy who was a oil rig technician from Wyoming. He shot the big Lazzaromi .30 (Sako chambered for it briefly and thats what he had) with a Berger VLD 180s I believe at about 3500 fps (he said). His family lived exclusively off of wild game with multiple tags from Wyo, Utah (a moose that year), Mt, Co, etc--some 20 head of game a year counting all in his family that drew. With his job and schedule he could basically travel and hunt all fall. He was sold on this bullet out of the big .30 and this combo was used on all this game by he, his wife, and others.

When talk turned to bullets and he told me about the Berger at 3500 for elk I thought he was nuts but when he explained to me what JB has since described, on one critter after another, I listened but was still doubtful.

We two eventually both shot 6x6s, mine with a 210 TSX out of my 340 but his he spined at under a 100 yds and blew out a 4"x4" chunk of it.

Since then all this VLD-affect-on-game-info has been more widely publicized by JB and others.

I just ordered my first two boxes I hope to try on deer; I still will not use them for elk or moose.

From reading these posts, I can tell there will be a problem with saving edible portions hit with this bullet on just about any quartering or head-on chest shot. You don't always get a nice broadside shot, and if meat recovery is a priority then I would find something else to shoot - nosler partition or barnes tsx or ttsx. I had about the same performance from remington bronze points, and quit using those for hunting. Don't care for finding chunks of jacket and core and bone in my soup.

forepaw

forepaw,

You evidently have missed one of the major performance differences between Berger VLD's and almost all other expanding bullets: They don't start expanding immediately upon hitting the animal. Which is exactly the reason you experienced such vast meat destruction with Bronze Points--they expand VERY quickly when striking flesh.

Instead, Bergers penetrate a couple of inches before starting to expand. In fact the entrance hole is often very hard to find, since it's so tiny. If a VLD hits a deer shoulder, the meat will often suffer less damage than when shot with a TSX.

Unlike most bullets, the major meat damage from a VLD (if it occurs at all) will be on the far side of a deer-sized animal, not around the entrance hole.

What is the correct .380 VLD weight for .30-06 for deer? 168?

Expat

John thanks for clearing that up. not having used them, I am trying to envision the process based on the combined experience here, but as GuyM noted "Not likely to recover much. The biggest chunk of bullet I recovered weighed 33 grains, mostly base jacket with a little lead left in it.", and also the comments on violent expansion and no exit hole, led me to believe a fragmented bullet would be the result of many, though apparently not all hits, and especially not with broadside shots.

Interesting concept, and I am looking forward to picking some up, loading them, shooting them and maybe using on game this year.

Thanks again.

forepaw

Fixed it.

From reading what Mule Deer said above, dunno about "correct". Depends what you want from your BC.

Exactly. My experience is that VLD doesn't matter nearly as much in terminal performance as it does with conventional bullets.

Thanks for the catch! Sounds like on deer anything from 155 up is ok as long as the rifle shoots it well over the range I intend to shoot it.

Expat

forepaw - worth a shot, so to speak...

The deer I've popped with the VLD sure dropped quick. No doubt...

Guy

Hope you guys don�t mind me throwing my .02 in the pot.

I have a theory that the slow initial expansion of the VLD design is due to the small meplat.

I think the air space under the hollow point has to collapse before major expansion can begin. This differs from soft point, plastic tipped, or large meplat hollow points in that the previously mentioned expand on initial contact with the hide while VLDs with the small meplat must penetrate a distance and the air space in the hollow point must collapse to initiate expansion.

After the air space at the hollow point collapses the bullet very rapidly expands and causes a tremendous amount of damage. We refer to it as �The Delayed Grenade�.

I also believe (based on a pretty large sample) that the VLD expands slower and less violently at close range than at longer range. I think this is due to the temperature of the lead core and that the lead core becomes softer at long range due to air friction and simply the time required for the heat from traveling down the bore to reach the lead core.

The above is simply theory but my field observations and our video seems to back it up 100%.

I will say that the VLD design has never let me down in any situation I have ever encountered (close or far, bone or lung) and has made me look better than any other bullet I have ever used.

John,

I agree about the cause of expansion. In fact it's pretty much impossible for VLD's to begin expanding in the same way as conventional hollow- or soft-points, because there isn't any opening in the meplat. It's completely closed, the reason for the very small puncture-wound entrance hole.

That's an interesting theory about the expansion at different ranges. All I can say for sure is that I've never seen a VLD "expand prematurely" and also never seen one fail to expand, no matter what the range.

Heres a probably worthless 2 cents...

I am running bergers in a 308 Win. 26 inch tube. 185 Target version since I was not liking the exits I was seeing with the hunting versions. Talked to Berger and they suggested this.

Its worked really good for me so far. I don't like hunting with a bullet that won't penetrate stem to stern so at some point I'll use the bergers for cull hunts only, and go to a barnes for the real hunting. Where I may not be able to be picky about shot placement.

As to lighter vs heavier.... John has a point about flat... but the reason long range shooters choose heavy has NOTHING to do with drop... drop is the easiest thing in the world to compensate for. Its wind drift thats more complicated and less black and white... high bc is your friend along with higher MV, but run ballistics and you'll see that light and fast often don't beat the wind much once you start to stretch distances out there. NOW there is a difference...in light and fast... by that I mean light for caliber.

BTW the 185 target VLD in my 308 Win is just a good accurate round and has done its work well so far this year from lung to head shots, I don't have a shot under its belt much past 400 so far though. And for those trying to understand all the data here, for me its either head shots or ribcage, I do not and will not on purpose shoot shoulders trying to break shoulder joints,blades etc....