Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Still think over-penetration is a non-issue? Read this...

My take is, he didn't suffer fools. And he didn't have much patience for a strutting peacock who wanted to enter into a dick measuring contest by showing everyone he was smarter or tougher than the instructor. They're in every class.

Maybe we took classes at very different times. The retention techniques he taught were quite consistent with what LE teaches all over the place.

I think it's an excellent article for consideration DESPITE that last paragraph you cite (which I also think is BS).

The DATA is there, but you cant seem to get past Ayoob's conclusions. I personally don't care about Ayoob's conclusions; I only care about the data. And the data supports that over-penetration is a legitimate issue.

RESPONSILE agencies DO consider the issue of over-penetration, because it is a legitimate concern. Your point about the need for adequate penetration is absolutely valid as well. Sacramento PD pulled shotgun slugs from cars after several incidents of extreme penetration that either injured someone or endangered someone. They addressed a legitimate issue. NYPD discontinued the use of FMJ ammunition specifically because of over-penetration. LA County Sheriff discontinued the use of 9mm 147 JHP's that didn't expand after a couple of their officers were shot from pass-throughs, and some bystanders had been shot (essentially the same kinds of issues as NYPD, just on a smaller scale). For LA and NY this issue caused them direct problems and a good deal of cash in court settlements. This isn't pine in the sky, "it really doesn't happen" stuff to them, they were bit.

Because I'm calling attention to the issue of extreme over-penetration DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, mean I'm advocating for inadequate penetration.

The training I took w/ him was full of swinging dicks and not a tape measure in sight. Not a fool or any poultry either. He clearly demonstrated that he could not make his techniques work against a resisting opponent. Some of his stuff was common thinking but he couldn't pull it off w/ his physical capabilities.

Some training environments are not friendly if the instructor fails to demonstrate the efficacy of his material. YMMV.


mike r

Weird, I never saw any of that. I left with the impression that while I don't always agree with him, I could always follow his logic. He had a strange sense of humor, so there were a few who didn't know how to take him. And his loud use of profanity in certain situations caught a couple people aback, but he was kinda "imitating" what you might encounter on the street, and he didn't really pull any punches.

He did demonstrate some Aikido type arm locks which on the street either work or don't work. Aikido is interesting...against a non-trained opponent it's absolutely devastating. Against someone who really knows his stuff, it can be damn near worthless. Still, most everyone teaches it because when it does work, it's very effective. And once you have someone in a lock/hold, you can get them to comply with just about anything.

When it doesn't work, if you're smart, you usually don't put yourself into any compromising position, you just try it, they pull out of it before you get the hold/lock set, and you both step back...go to plan B.

Some teach such moves and foolproof, when in reality they're only foolproof if you get it set, but setting it is anything but foolproof. I honestly don't recall Ayoob claiming they were foolproof though...that would have set my BS detector off.

perfect....Flave you are the man.

Yeah Aikido is the schidt! Just ask Steven Segal or Ayoob or gungeek.
Weapon retention, cuffing and other critical hands on techniques are life or death skillsets. To train, after the basic level, at anything less than full speed and commitment is for amateurs and posers. YMMV.

mike r

Hey Kevin, those bullets "way over penetrate"...

gungeek = Gecko45?

Ayoob...

Still laughin'.




Travis

The first time I met Ayoob was in 1984, at the '84 LAPD Ordnance Expo. I was a brand-new probationer just out of the Academy; if we attended the Expo we could go on city time (basically, it was a cop-oriented gun show). I took a couple of his seminars, one of which was "Handgun Survival". Ayoob stood up in front of 50-60 LA coppers, some of whom had been in 3, 4 or more gunfights, and talked about gunfighting. He then started demonstrating various arm blocks against knives. It was the dumbest thing I've witnessed as far as an officer survival class (and I've been to a few). Gotta give it to him, though...it takes a lot of courage to stand up in front of a group of REAL urban warriors and talk about how to fight and survive, especially while wearing a uniform shirt from some podunk New Hampshire PD. And he was only a reserve dude. Pretty ballsy. I've talked to him several times since then; nice guy, good writer and an excellent self-promoter. He's carved a niche out for himself with his LFI stuff. Some people consider him an expert in his field.
Bob

Jelly Bryce was a bad son of a bitch.

….better watch it CT, you'll sound like an Ayoob non-ridiculer……

I give up...who?

He certainly was!

I guess we just can't have this discussion here. Why are we talking about Ayoob? Whether you agree with or disagree with his conclusions (and for the 4th time, I personally disagree with his conclusions)is not the discussion. But just because I disagreed with his conclusions doesn't mean I disregard the data.

The discussion is about the data he presents in the articles, not his conclusions. The data remains regardless of the writer or his conclusions. Is no one capable of discerning this? Or do you think the data is all made up?

I guess this is why lawyers tear down the witness, because most don't have the critical thinking skills to differentiate between message and messenger.

He was a freaking magician with a handgun!!! I read once that the reason he was so good with a gun was that he could clearly see the bullets in flight, which allowed him to more easily correct any flaw, or better understand any lesson ever taught.

Do Ar-15s over penetrate? What about shotgun slugs? Should we go to rubber bullets? Maybe whistle? How much penetration do the 308s have?

Fact is if anyone is near or behind an intended target they are at great risk of being hit by a bullet, that is the fact here.

How about a discussion of officers killed or injured because their ammo did not penetrate enough. Bullets are supposed to penetrate.

BS conclusion make the rest suspect.

How about Bug A Salt? It won't over penetrate.

I understand your frustration, but data acceptability is based to some degree on credibility; in this case, Ayoob's. If you're interested in pistol round penetration, read about Dr Fackler's (COL, MD, ret) testing and conclusions. No issues with creds or data, at least with the US Army, FBI, LAPD, etc.
Bob

On the street!