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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,203 Likes: 9
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,203 Likes: 9 |
I would ask for my money back.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,985 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,985 Likes: 6 |
I got my first badge in 76. 32 of the following 39 years have been full time, as in 'primary source of income' LE. About 4 years of that was in a major metro area. 12 of it was as the investigator for a prosecuting attorney. I have talked to Dr. Fackler and had him review some work I did on a murder case relevant to terminal ballistics. I am not unfamiliar with the courts, rules of evidence and 'expert witnesses' most of whom I consider overpaid hookers in a suit. I started reading Ayoob back when Jimmah Cahtah was pretending to be president. I wouldn't walk across the street for free admission to one of his seminars, if that tells you anything.
I've dissected somewhere north of 50 shootings and attended a few. What I have done, seen and learned is relevant to those incidents; but you can draw some logical conclusions about what is most likely to get the job done. The problem, gentlemen, is that you never know who or what you might need to shoot with your pistol. It might be a 140 pound crackhead, or a 250 pound muscle-bound product of the prison weight room with his arms up in front of him. Hell it might be a pair of 100+ pound attack dogs coming in like torpedoes from 11 O'Clock.
You cannot cover all those bases with a round that won't shoot through the 140 pound addict, 100% of the time. You have to shoot well and there is no substitute for that. Based on what I've seen and done, I will always err on the side of using 'enough gun' and ample penetration. The .40 with good 165's or 180's is about as small as I'll go. I prefer and carry a 45 auto with 230's, usually JHP's. It doesn't bother me in the least to carry it with hardball. Sarge you hit the nail squarely on the head! Great post! Anyone that has enough experience in lethal confrontations or taken enough game of varing sizes with a handgun will come to the same conclusion. If one is obversvant they realize that penetration is never a bad thing.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I guess what I'm saying here is that I think most of y'all's opinions, jabs, jibes, and detractions are so far off the mark as to be ridiculous. Fact is most of y'all haven't done schit in your lives to make a lick of difference in the world of training or the use of deadly force, so I guess you have to make yourselves feel better by trying to drag down someone who has.
Will you pretty please forgive us? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Meth mixed with crack. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,067 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,067 Likes: 1 |
In response to DocRocket about training.
A while back I took a course in self defence.
This was a highly touted marshal arts-esque self defence course
used and taught by the worlds best...
the Israeli military.
The style of marshal arts is jewhitsyou.
After being slapped about 50 times I decided a well placed large hole was a better defence for me.
Continously working on...
Identify target
Sight on target
And
Squeeze.
And work on doing this with high adrenaline levels
Bike & Shoot competitions were good for this.
Of course a large hole making device must be carried at all times.
Last edited by bcolorado; 06/14/15.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,487
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,487 |
…..
I love to argue, but you need to do MUCHO better. You lost the argument when you mentioned that goofball Yeager. I only said to pick your expert wisely. Too easy, if you want to learn properly. There's way too many REALLY good, experienced people out there that have something to offer than to pick wanna-bees and self-promoters. Don't know where you got the FBI speed rock and crouch thing...never mentioned. It's an old technique. Sometimes it still works. But old TIMERS do have some relevance. I'll listen to Bill Allard any day over an Ayoob character. And that's the point, Mr gmoats. Pick your expert wisely. If you wanna argue some more, PM me; we can talk instructors and experience; love to hear about yours.
Bob Sorry to take so long to respond Bob, I left my computer and went to Church (which I desperately needed after our conversation this morning) and then shot some 5-stand with my wife……..no doubt you enjoy a good argument…….I have no doubt that you were valedictorian of your Police Academy class, won the Iron Mike award at Ft. Benning and are possibly the Prez of your local chapter of mensa…..but you'd have to willing work at misinterpreting my comments to make the above statement……that's ok….I've quit trying to screw the inscrutable and I bow to your superior knowledge and (evidently) experience……to end on a peaceful note……….I don't give hoot about anybody's feelings about Ayoob, his background, his personality or his hair piece…..I really don't……there is a very real danger however in feeling that only the "guys that have been on the street" are worthy teachers. If that's the primary consideration then you're stuck with buffoons like Yeager, Pincus and the "Shoot like a Seal" guy and you'd have to negate Cooper, Chapman, Shaw, Wilson, maybe Rogers and a few others….witness your comments about Tiger McKee…….at any rate, it's not worth getting worked up about….kind of like getting pissed off arguing about the designated hitter rule in MLB……….as you say, choose your trainers wisely….having been on the street isn't necessarily the best criteria however (that's my main and only point). PAX Greg
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,600 Likes: 1 |
[video:youtube]UQw8XpI1TRg[/video] That's part of what's wrong with the firearms training industry. Instead of teaching concepts and principles (draw fast and shoot as fast as you can, accurately, as many times as you have to), we're giving mediocre tactics cool names and teaching people to follow step by step instructions. Everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame and maybe an opportunity to make a few bucks. Make up the Bluedreaux Speed Roll and be famous. Go private sector.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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I wonder how many of the people on this thread (as with just about every other "adequate self-defense cartridge/bullet" thread) have actually had to shoot someone in self-defense?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Jeff Cooper knew his schit. Few things better than the scout rifle concept.
Off to buy some more factory practice ammo.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,067 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,067 Likes: 1 |
I wonder how many of the people on this thread (as with just about every other "adequate self-defense cartridge/bullet" thread) have actually had to shoot someone in self-defense? Civilians? very few if any. However... I had the opportunity to try and load a revolver while someone was attempting to break in. Huge adrenaline dump... thus the trying to train fine motor skills with high levels of adrenaline.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
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Roger Mr gmoats; thanks for the compliments on my career. Not that illustrious, but close. Small correction..."Iron Mike" is at FT Bragg (home of the Airborne), not Benning. If you'd been there, you'd know that. Kinda like Ayoob...
I gave LOTS of credit to the non-cop/warrior shooter/teachers like Wilson, Leatham, Chapman, etc. because they have something to offer...exceptional marksmanship skills and the ability to teach it. A couple of other posters also mentioned that. Guess you missed it. The DocRocket dude said I should apologize to you; OK, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. Won't happen again.
I'm sure "Tiger" McKee is awesome. Clint says so.
Bob
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Joined: May 2010
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
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Roger Mr gmoats; thanks for the compliments on my career. Not that illustrious, but close. Small correction..."Iron Mike" is at FT Bragg (home of the Airborne), not Benning. If you'd been there, you'd know that. Kinda like Ayoob...
I gave LOTS of credit to the non-cop/warrior shooter/teachers like Wilson, Leatham, Chapman, etc. because they have something to offer...exceptional marksmanship skills and the ability to teach it. A couple of other posters also mentioned that. Guess you missed it. The DocRocket dude said I should apologize to you; OK, I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. Won't happen again.
I'm sure "Tiger" McKee is awesome. Clint says so.
Bob
…..well you do excel in condescension, I'll give you that…….I was in the Marine Corps where manliness was wide spread enough that no such award was deemed appropriate, so will throw myself on the good graces that you've demonstrated in the discussion for forgiveness for the gaff of Benning versus Bragg. Regarding Doc, you'd have to be a far more adroit wordsmith to hurt my feelings…..but thanks for the apology. By the way PAX is not latin for GFY…..I meant it, but apparently it didn't stick. All the best, Greg
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I wonder how many of the people on this thread (as with just about every other "adequate self-defense cartridge/bullet" thread) have actually had to shoot someone in self-defense? Is that a prerequisite for having a valid opinion?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,543 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
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That video doesn't accurately represent the "Speed Rock" technique at all. The Speed Rock was probably the first modern retention shooting position widely taught back in the 70's. It served as the foundation for most of the retention techniques that are used today.
It's worth noting that everything "new" owes its existence to something developed long ago, and if anyone thinks the wheel was invented in your lifetime then you're just a silly fool.
No it is not a perfect representation of the original. For the life of me, I could not find a Cooper-esque speed rock vid in the short time I had to look. If you find one, by all means post it. I particularly agree with your last paragraph.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
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[video:youtube]UQw8XpI1TRg[/video] I watched this a handful of times and still am not clear on this question. Did this expert muzzle his own hand between the chamber-check and charging his sidearm? I'm thinking he muzzled his own hand. Even if he didn't, it was darn sure close enough to really question anything this guy has to say about shooting.
Montana MOFO
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
I wonder how many of the people on this thread (as with just about every other "adequate self-defense cartridge/bullet" thread) have actually had to shoot someone in self-defense? Is that a prerequisite for having a valid opinion? Nope, just a question. It would, perhaps, give a bit more credibility to the "absolutes" that more than a few toss around on the subject, though, if they've actually had first-hand experience.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,660 Likes: 1 |
I don't think he muzzled the gun........I think his hand was on the top or bottom of the slide, not covering the muzzle.
But........he sure as schitt shot the 1st round into the ground below the target as he drew the weapon.
MM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
[video:youtube]UQw8XpI1TRg[/video] That's part of what's wrong with the firearms training industry. Instead of teaching concepts and principles (draw fast and shoot as fast as you can, accurately, as many times as you have to), we're giving mediocre tactics cool names and teaching people to follow step by step instructions. Everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame and maybe an opportunity to make a few bucks. Make up the Bluedreaux Speed Roll and be famous. Go private sector. I found a few more videos. We teach the same basic concept (or at least what I think the original idea was before the YouTube hacks demo'd it) but don't have a cool name for it. (And the video I made for it was waaaaay better, lol)
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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