Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Trump v. McCain

Have to pause now and again to keep perspective about the unfolding debacle that is the RNC. Yesterday's concrete is today's taffy and it seems that the 'truth' is whatever they decide to call it from day to day.

I marvel slightly at Trump's recent surge in the polls, but it really shouldn't surprise all that much. Mainstream RNC players are so out of touch with their base it's stupid. Perhaps as noted elsewhere here at the 'Fire, the Trump phenomenon is based on a nation/base grown weary of PC and "sensitivity" and whose life matters anyway? He is crass on the best of days, not terribly well versed in the machinations of Congress and says it like he sees it. Reality speak is it?

So, he tells America Mexicans are bad mojo. Crudely stated, but by definition they are violators of our borders, sovereignty and laws. Other than that I'm sure they are decent people. Except for the ones who are repeat felons, traffickers, and a general burden on society.

And John McCain ain't no hero? Say it ain't so Donald! But he might have a point. Take a minute or three to educate yourself about McCain's illustrious military career, then make your own decision.

http://www.pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm

He goes on ignore until a REAL candidate steps up to the plate. Whatever good he's done to point out the misgivings of the anointed is overshadowed by his arrogance,lack of tact and overall unelectability.

Wouldn't argue that for a second. He is, as recently opined, a jackass. What does that make the other candidates who trail him in the polls?

My point goes to a reality check about McCain and his legend more than hugs and kisses for Trump. Truth is, from my perspective, they deserve each other. Politically speaking of course.

I flew with more than a couple of units back in the day that exhibited some of Johnny's traits in the zone. They got themselves shot down too, or just simply did something brilliant like controlled flight into terrain. They were not heroes anymore than I am, but you know that.

This is a hero:

http://valor.militarytimes.com/recipient.php?recipientid=2107

McCain is irrelevant. He's not running and it gives the lieberals more fodder to diminish conservatives to focus on him and point out his shortcomings. Not sure if that was Trump's intent, but he's a loose cannon who doesn't care if he destroys his own ship, and that might be his intent. He won't go down with it, that's certain.

wasn't McCain involved with, or even responsible for that fire on the Forrestal?

Interesting read, Dan. I read it over twice and I have no major issues with any of it. A couple of observations though. Most of the POWs I had the honor to rub elbows with in Pensacola, were bagged by AAA and not SAMs, even more so if they were Attack guys or F-4s doing strike missions and not CAP. This makes perfect sense as SAMs were primarily designed for medium (>15K') to high altitude weapons. Witness the Randy Cunningham shootdown after his famous dogfight with the legendary Col Toon (who was probably a Russian or CHICOM) he was bagged at fairly high altitude. Anyway (hell, you were there!) the gooks usually fired SAMs in salvos (and more often than not in a "dumb" mode) just to get the numbers up there and force our guys to do exactly as trained, barrel roll and Split S to get away, but that would easily bring them down to a literal curtain of AAA, so McCain's shootdown by AAA is completely feasible.
As to the ejection, I have to call bullshit on the assumption.

The airplane I flew (Viking) used the same seat as the A-4 (ESCAPAC) and unlike the Martin-Baker seat (like Pugs used)that used "stirrups" to bring in your legs, was notorious for inflicting flailing injuries and in that situation, i.e. 3500' AGL is really too damned close to the deck, especially if your sink rate is excessive, meaning if you have to go, GO! and compounded by violent, high "G" maneuvers, his injuries were not necessarily as a result of poor ejection posture, but rather the criticality of the situation. I think (my opinion based on my limited experience)McCain probably got a "hard on" when he saw the target, bored in with the bombs, "pickled" at say 8K feet then bottomed out at 3500 and got bagged (note: 57MM AAA is good to at least 15K if I remember).

On the segment about the Forrestal fire and the so-called prank about making an A-4's engine blow flames, I have to call bullshit on that one. I have a few hours in the TA-4 (same engine) and as you probably know, the A-4 has no burner, so the only way to even attempt to do this would be to dump excessive amounts of fuel into the combustion section before punching the igniters, resulting in an engine fire. I just don't think ANYBODY would be that dumb.

Regarding Stockdale, nobody "wins" an award for valor and that really rubs me the wrong way and it would be interesting to dig into the author deeper. I've yapped about his mishap records before and won't do so again here, suffice to say, if he got single seat Jets, his flying performance COULD NOT have been that bad, and in fact, I'd wager they were quite good. Too bad I'm retired or I could have looked up his flight grades in Pensacola (I might do just that next time I'm there, they reside at the Museum and are open to the public for the most part).

Lastly, I know McCain's roommate at the Naval Academy and flight school quite well (my best friend's FIL)and I will send him a link to the story and ask him to comment. You all have my word I will report back if he responds. Jorge

The current crop of Republicrats are as interesting and captivating as stale beer. There's not a warm ember in any of the bellies of Republicrat herd, the best they can work up is saying 'I'm not him. '
The Dems are putting up a faintly warm corpse in the personage of Hillery. And none of the the Republicrats are mocking her. They are afraid of her.
Who was that Mormon waste of time and money that the Republicrats ran against Obama last time. Do you remember he had Obama on the ropes during a debate and did not finish him off. That Republicrat deserved to loose. Or if you are into conspiracies He was not supposed to win by agreement with the Dems

Jim

Maybe I am wrong, but from my perspective Admiral Stockdale is a hero, McCain not so much.

I never cared for McCain as a politician or a person. He always seems to be talking down to everyone, very condescending.

But I will let better men than me judge his military career.

Trump has gone on record and said he will NOT run third party.

He may walk that back some time in the future, but if thats true, he has to know he cant win with this rhetoric, wont win and wont get the GOPs establishments nomination, by saying he wont run 3rd party. (Not that I want him to)

That makes him a spoiler, destroyer of any momentum the Right had with the debacle of Her Travesty's credibility and image problems.

Perhaps he is just a Trojan horse, playing Donan the Destroyer, running interference for the Left, and giving Hiliary time out of the frying pan to coast.

His statement makes him irrelevant.

Reality show candidate for reality show voters.

Jorge, I don't have the background to comment on the SAM/AAA thing, or ejection theory, nor would I offer any opinion about the Forrestal fire. Some of the assertions seem a little thin to me regardless.

What I've read in the past is consistent with the linked blog on point of his academic credentials, previous flight/accident record and his own words. He was a cowboy, little more. Still a legend in his own mind.

Have few comments on his tour in the Hilton. Pretty much sucked start to finish I'd say. Survival in that circumstance is a matter of determination more than anything. There is the potential for doing it with honor or otherwise. I'm unaware of allegations that McCain's manner was anything less than honorable and I'm certainly not in a position to judge otherwise.

My personal view is that honor and courage, though oft related are distinctly different things. Heroism is another separate and distinct subject matter. I got a few awards in Nam. Allegations of heroism were just that and little more. I thought I could get away with it and admit to little more than creative thinking in regards to aircraft maneuvers. That includes the one with the V device. Got a Purple Heart too, but it was a matter of wrong place/time, not heroics. The fellow LaPointe I linked above, he was a no chitt bonafide hero more than once. It was an honor to serve with him.

Well let's see, on the Democratic ticket you have Hillary for your choice. Though others may try, she's probably the one who will get it.

On the Republican side you have a bunch of not so distinguished illuminaries who have much smaller testicles than Hillary. I think ya'll ought to think about Trump again.

Can't argue with anything you wrote Dan, especially the Cowboy and Legend monikers for sure. As to the hero part, I guess the language needs several levels of that words is one idea and your mate certainly deserves that and more. As to McCain, I'll say what I've said many times, his awards were blessed by Stockdale and the other SROs at the Hilton, so to me rates it. Cheers, J

Trump is a distraction whose motives are questionable. To be called a "jackass" by McNutty's bhutt buddy was expected.
This little sideshow does NOT make the "other candidates" anything.
This little sideshow does NOT make the "other candidates" anything.
(except for Rick Perry who "flinched" (and can disqualify himself right now) and McNutty's bhutt buddy (who is a disgrace to South Carolina)

McNutty's attack (calling people "crazies") was just McNutty being himself and inserting himself into a primary when he should keep his (hero) nose out of it.
He is a bratty old man who started life as a bratty kid, his Naval parents should have drowned him when they had a chance and saved the Country from his stupid "acting" out.
___________

Ok Trumpy we get the Messican thing and McNutty being a bogus hero.
What else you got ?
What about all the other third worlder flooding our Country ?
What about the Federal Gov. Ignoring the 10th Amendnent ?
What does 230AI mean ?
Have you done business with Larry Root ?
How will building a 5 story trumptower in Havre MT improve the test scores of Asian immigrant children in DesMoines IA ?
What else ya got Trumpasse? Hmmm?

I suppose we need to define "hero", especially in our Pop Culture world of today.

Audie Murphy was a hero by any yardstick. Alvin York, the same.

For some, a hero is anyone who served.

For others, it could be anyone who serves and agrees with me politically. The term is bandied about without thought or complex meaning these days. With the political and cultural polarization we now have, it seems that anyone I like is a "hero" and all of your people suck. It is unfortunate.

ANYONE that can survive what McCain did at the hands of the North Vietnamese, deserves a tip of the hat. Vast majority of us just could not have done it.
That said, we need to judge the man on his life after that event. There, his efforts are sadly lacking.

Five years of hero vs. 40 years of villain.

People can weigh that however they like.

He was on the Forrestal.

No, he had no responsibility for the fire.




Travis