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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,600 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,600 Likes: 1 |
I am not, in any wise, against the 9mm cartridge. My favorite pistol of all time was a 9mm H&K p9s.
I am against running willy nilly to a standard set by an agenda driven institution like the fbi. If directed, they will change their stance tomorrow, and proclaim the new stance with all the gravitas they can muster.
All of the talk of arming to the least common denominator (women) is pure groundless speculation. The institution has it's aims and goals, and the 9mm is far and away the most common sense round for a diversely staffed institution, if said outfit needs a single cartridge.
None of this means that the 9mm is the best overall cartridge for any other circumstance.
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,699 Likes: 3 |
I'm dying fugking laughing right now....
You're an ass hole.
Travis No sheet. That was funny.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
It is not a matter of equaling or exceeding the performance of a 45. It is a matter of using data collected from the field to determine what is required of a cartridge for the purposes of law enforcement personnel.
The report explains that 12-18" of penetration was necessary. It explains that certain 9mm loadings meet or exceed this requirement. It also explains some .40 cal ammunition does not.
It also explains that 70-80% of shots fired by law enforcement personnel in deadly force situations are misses. Which means more bullets are always better than less bullets.
It also explains that accuracy is paramount above all else. And that the lighter recoiling cartridge improves the speed and accuracy of ALL pistol shooters.
If anybody has a valid argument against any of these key points, feel free to urinate up that rope.
Travis bullshit...
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21 |
Can I ask what the fbi's findings have to do with anything? Then please do expound on your findings. What calibers and loads have you extensively tested, which barriers did you test them through, how far did those rounds penetrate, how much weight did they retain, what did the wound cavity look like? What weapons did you test them in, what were the result of your accuracy testing, what were the differences in time for accurate follow up shots between the various calibers tested, how did the shooters' physical attributes contribute to your findings, how did the shooters' experience levels contribute to the results? Well said.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,600 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,600 Likes: 1 |
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
No doubt about it, the FBI has created standards for recommending the 38 Super and 38-44 for penetrating cars, 125gr 357 Mags, 38 Auto's, 200gr 38 Special loads, 38 158LSWCHP 38 Specials, +P 38's, +P+ 38's, 9mms with light bullets, 9mm's with heavies, midweights, the 10mm, the 40 and now reasons to make the 9mm "best" again, or at least recommended, according to their tests.
Did the 357 Sig have their fancy for awhile?
I don't know if they've ever found a decent enough excuse to make a 45 the "best" over the years, but I'm sure if they did a good portion of agencies and ammunition makers would heed the call.
A 2,000 dollar toilet seat comes to mind. Maybe the next "best" thing will be a hot 32 or 22; I could really care less, but the gospel according to the FBI has been a wandering goatphuck as long as there's been an FBI in regards to sidearms.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,878
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,878 |
That was way too funny, I don't ever share campfire stuff with my wife, but had to show her that.
Incidently she IS a cop who is in the process of switching (at her request) from carrying a 40 to a 9mm because she shoots it more accuratly, more quickly, and more comfortably.
Empirical results rule!
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238 |
This is just GOOD STUFF. You can't get this just anywhere. FBI-We want to find out which car most efficiently reaches 60mph in 6 seconds.
Campfire Guru-My grandpa drove a car a 100 years ago that went 60mph.
FBI-Car#1 reaches 60mph in 6 seconds burning the least amount of fuel, with the most comfortable ride and was the easiest to safely drive.
Campfire Guru-But Car#2 does it in 5.9 seconds.....with no power steering and it slides all over the road and is wildly dangerous for half the drivers in the world.
FBI-Yes, Car#2 is faster. But that speed comes at a price. Do you understand cause and effect?
Campfire Guru-Did you not hear me???? I said 5.9 SECONDS!!!!
FBI-Have you ever tested both cars side by side to see which best accomplishes the goal?
Campfire Guru-So YOU'RE telling ME that my grandpa was a queer for pulling a trailer with Truck#3?
FBI-What are you even talking about? We're testing the speed efficiency of cars reaching 60mph and set 6 seconds as our benchmark.
Campfire Guru-A real man could keep any car on the road. I can. I did it one time last year.
FBI-Of course you can. But you could drive Car#1 and still accomplish your goal, but without as much drama or problems for yourself.
Campfire Guru-Don't tell me about your stupid race car.
FBI-It's not a race car, it's just a regular car. But it more efficiently accomplishes the same goal as Car#2.
Campfire Guru-Do you have any idea how large my penis is? I can drive ANY CAR.
FBI-That really has nothing to do with our research.
Campfire Guru-If you ever call my grandpa a queer again I'll shoot you with my bullets from 1904.
"Put none but Americans on guard tonight."
-George Washington
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,698
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,698 |
FBI-We want to find out which car most efficiently reaches 60mph in 6 seconds.
Campfire Guru-My grandpa drove a car a 100 years ago that went 60mph.
FBI-Car#1 reaches 60mph in 6 seconds burning the least amount of fuel, with the most comfortable ride and was the easiest to safely drive.
Campfire Guru-But Car#2 does it in 5.9 seconds.....with no power steering and it slides all over the road and is wildly dangerous for half the drivers in the world.
FBI-Yes, Car#2 is faster. But that speed comes at a price. Do you understand cause and effect?
Campfire Guru-Did you not hear me???? I said 5.9 SECONDS!!!!
FBI-Have you ever tested both cars side by side to see which best accomplishes the goal?
Campfire Guru-So YOU'RE telling ME that my grandpa was a queer for pulling a trailer with Truck#3?
FBI-What are you even talking about? We're testing the speed efficiency of cars reaching 60mph and set 6 seconds as our benchmark.
Campfire Guru-A real man could keep any car on the road. I can. I did it one time last year.
FBI-Of course you can. But you could drive Car#1 and still accomplish your goal, but without as much drama or problems for yourself.
Campfire Guru-Don't tell me about your stupid race car.
FBI-It's not a race car, it's just a regular car. But it more efficiently accomplishes the same goal as Car#2.
Campfire Guru-Do you have any idea how large my penis is? I can drive ANY CAR.
FBI-That really has nothing to do with our research.
Campfire Guru-If you ever call my grandpa a queer again I'll shoot you with my bullets from 1904. Quite possibly the best internet response I've ever read. Rolling here... 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
FBI-We want to find out which car most efficiently reaches 60mph in 6 seconds.
Xfrshooter-My grandpa drove a car a 100 years ago that went 60mph.
FBI-Car#1 reaches 60mph in 6 seconds burning the least amount of fuel, with the most comfortable ride and was the easiest to safely drive.
Xfrshooter-But Car#2 does it in 5.9 seconds.....with no power steering and it slides all over the road and is wildly dangerous for half the drivers in the world.
FBI-Yes, Car#2 is faster. But that speed comes at a price. Do you understand cause and effect?
Xfrshooter-Did you not hear me???? I said 5.9 SECONDS!!!!
FBI-Have you ever tested both cars side by side to see which best accomplishes the goal?
Xfrshooter-So YOU'RE telling ME that my grandpa was a queer for pulling a trailer with Truck#3?
FBI-What are you even talking about? We're testing the speed efficiency of cars reaching 60mph and set 6 seconds as our benchmark.
Xfrshooter-A real man could keep any car on the road. I can. I did it one time last year. AT over 1000 yards!
FBI-Of course you can. But you could drive Car#1 and still accomplish your goal, but without as much drama or problems for yourself.
Xfrshooter-Don't tell me about your stupid race car. You can't drive as well as me; no one can. Ever. Well, except for Earnhardt, and another shooter here whom I can't help but kiss up to and hope he'll forgive me for being an [bleep] and likely on drugs and making him nervous about even admitting he knows me... (cue soft music and candle light)
FBI-It's not a race car, it's just a regular car. But it more efficiently accomplishes the same goal as Car#2.
Xfrshooter-Do you have any idea how large my penis is? I can drive ANY CAR. Always better than you. Or anyone else. Except that other driver here whom I miss and I hope he comes to visit again, even though I am creepy in my obsessions about him... (cue music and lighting again)
FBI-That really has nothing to do with our research.
Xfrshooter-If you ever call my grandpa a queer again I'll shoot you with my bullets from 1904. I challenge you all to a race, and a duel, with my uber special guns and top secret car. Except my special friend, whom I miss and want to come see me again, even though I weird him out and he avoids even acknowledging that he knows me because I'm really strange and scare him. (cue creepy weird soft music and lights)
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,600 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,600 Likes: 1 |
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238 |
Two to the Chest, one to the Head.
Practice that using a shot timer, and see how fast you can do it with different calibers.
Then add in some movement by you the shooter trying to get to cover, and the target who is trying to avoid getting shot. Lastly try to mentally simulate getting shot at while doing it.
Then and only then can you complain about a 70% miss rate by cops involved in real world situations.
And then maybe you can see how if that that third shot (to the head) is the deal breaker, you would want a firearm/round combo that would allow you do it as fast as possible.
Lastly, Turn Off the Lights, and try it in darkness while trying to hold a flashlight.
Last edited by cv540; 08/27/15.
"Put none but Americans on guard tonight."
-George Washington
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
Two to the Chest, one to the Head.
Practice that using a shot timer, and see how fast you can do it with different calibers.
Then add in some movement by you the shooter trying to get to cover, and the target who is trying to avoid getting shot. Lastly try to mentally simulate getting shot at while doing it.
Then and only then can you complain about a 70% miss rate by cops involved in real world situations.
And then maybe you can see how if that that third shot (to the head) is the deal breaker, you would want a firearm/round combo that would allow you do it as fast as possible. Then the 9mm, maybe not even in an auto, is "best" for most people, both genders included. That's how f&%king stupid the semantics are...twenty years ago the FBI, not anyone on this thread, deemed a more powerful round was needed, with similar statistics and lab tests about how it was "best". Bad example. I think the FBI was behind Crystal Pepsi....
Last edited by HawkI; 08/27/15.
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Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I never read the FBI's report that concluded the 10mm was a good choice.
But I have read this one and it is difficult to argue with any of the points that are made in it.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21 |
[quote=cv540]twenty years ago the FBI, not anyone on this thread, deemed a more powerful round was needed, with similar statistics and lab tests about how it was "best".
Bad example.
I think the FBI was behind Crystal Pepsi.... The facts were different then, I.e., bullet technology wasn't as advanced. The terminal effect of a 9mm of modern design is superior to what it was then, altering the balance in its favor, all factors considered.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,532 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,532 Likes: 1 |
No doubt about it, the FBI has created standards for recommending the 38 Super and 38-44 for penetrating cars, 125gr 357 Mags, 38 Auto's, 200gr 38 Special loads, 38 158LSWCHP 38 Specials, +P 38's, +P+ 38's, 9mms with light bullets, 9mm's with heavies, midweights, the 10mm, the 40 and now reasons to make the 9mm "best" again, or at least recommended, according to their tests.
Did the 357 Sig have their fancy for awhile?
I don't know if they've ever found a decent enough excuse to make a 45 the "best" over the years, but I'm sure if they did a good portion of agencies and ammunition makers would heed the call.
A 2,000 dollar toilet seat comes to mind. Maybe the next "best" thing will be a hot 32 or 22; I could really care less, but the gospel according to the FBI has been a wandering goatphuck as long as there's been an FBI in regards to sidearms. Great post and consistent with my recollection of the Bureau's 'next big thing' cartridge selections over the past 35 years. After you choose 'the best' so many times, 'best' becomes meaningless. And Jesus... split times in a gunfight? Gunfights are won by people able to make the decision to shoot an [bleep] right now, right well and with something big enough to settle their hash ASAP. The Bureau has enough scraps under their belt to know this, as do many other outfits. There is however a constant battle between those who insist on imparting skill at arms and those who insist on qualifying everybody at the lowest possible cost.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
I believe they adopted it, then decided it was too much; it was also about the time they decided a cartridge standardization was needed.
Jesus, a more substantial 32 or even a 30 should get dreamt up ASAP if we are hedging bets on low recoil expanding rounds.
The bottom line is that "best" is pretty subjective.
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Posts: 3,238
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238 |
The bottom line is that "best" is pretty subjective.
Of this, there is no arguing.
"Put none but Americans on guard tonight."
-George Washington
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
[quote=cv540]twenty years ago the FBI, not anyone on this thread, deemed a more powerful round was needed, with similar statistics and lab tests about how it was "best".
Bad example.
I think the FBI was behind Crystal Pepsi.... The facts were different then, I.e., bullet technology wasn't as advanced. The terminal effect of a 9mm of modern design is superior to what it was then, altering the balance in its favor, all factors considered. Facts haven't changed. Most people can hit better with smaller, lower recoiling rounds. They can also increase the odds of hitting with round count. I don't think the FBI has gone small enough to get diminishing returns. If pressed, most people shoot guns that fit them well, devoid of a slide moving toward their face, better...since this matter of recoil and target re-acquisition matters now.
Last edited by HawkI; 08/27/15.
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Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 14,653 |
And Jesus... split times in a gunfight? Gunfights are won by people able to make the decision to shoot an [bleep] right now, right well and with something big enough to settle their hash ASAP. LOL
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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