Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Selecting the right large rifle primer

Mule Deer

Over 75% of the reloading data in reloading manuals comes from strain gauges. Strain gauges glued to the barrels of the firearms listed in these very manuals. You also forgot to tell your following here that a cartridge of a known chamber pressure is test fired to calibrate the strain gauge and get more accurate readings.

Then you tell us using a transducer "there was less than 1000 PSI difference in the two methods" between the SAAMI and CIP methods. "BUT" the chamber pressure for the .223 using a SAAMI transducer is 55,000 psi and the CIP transducer reads 62,000 psi. And that's 7,000 psi and it makes me wonder who you are trying to bullshit.

Mr. Salazar used the very same strain gauge type testing used in the reloading manuals. These manuals list the type firearm used in the testing and the strain gauge is glued to the barrel for these pressure readings. You criticize Mr. Salazar but what testing have you done and then written about it? What primer tests have you done. What powder and pressure testing have you done, and then you say you spent a few days visiting testing labs and now an expert. Show me your body of work and the testing you have done that surpasses Mr. Salazar's body of work.

Then you say all these ammunition manufactures and reloading companies are members of the SAAMI. Guess what, membership to the SAAMI is voluntary, along with following SAAMI guidelines. And in Europe it is mandatory to belong to CIP and manufactured firearms and ammunition must pass CIP standards.

Now open a few reloading manuals and see how many universal receivers and transducers are used and how many specific firearms are listed where strain gauges are used.

Bottom line, I never heard of you until I came to this forum, and here you are criticizing people more widely read and known than you are. All I have seen is you having one big ego trip starting with how to neck size to you sounding off here.

Forgive me if I do not genuflect and kiss your ring.

Gee, Ed, if you’d actually read anything outside your Google-world you might have read some of my stuff about pressure-testing, including exactly how it’s done and some of my results. Oh, and yes, I have mentioned here and there that “reference ammo” of known pressure is used to calibrate either kind of electronic pressure equipment.

Just for the record, how much time have you spent in professional pressure laboratories?

And no, I wasn’t talking about the difference between SAAMI and CIP pressure standards, but how the difference between the SAME ammo tested in SAAMI and CIP barrels is less than 1000 PSI. You do have a reading comprehension problem, which became apparent when some of your links included information contradictory to what you were claiming.

Carry on. You’re occasionally entertaining, though you do tend to clog up threads.

Someone should just "genuflect and kiss " his own damn rosy ring.

I only use CCI's and have never had a problem...

Mule Deer

Your still side stepping the issue, over 75% of the load data in our reloading manuals comes from strain gauges.

And you say.......




Then because you think the world revolves around you and don't like seeing information that isn't yours you bad mouth German Salazar and the links I posted.

And Google is a wonderful tool, the whole world is your library and at your fingertips and many more people should use it. You can even Google rifle primer tests, the problem is mule dear if anyone does they will not find anything written by you. And you have the nerve to criticize a world class competitive shooter researching the effects of primers on accuracy.

I feel sorry for the people in this cloistered forum where only your opinion matters Mule Deer. You have a small following of hecklers that drink your purple Kool-Aid Mule Deer. And I'm not one of them, and anyone wanting to learn more about reloading would be better off at Accurate Shooter.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/ and they will not see your name there either.........I wonder why.

Are all these places that use strain gauges reporting concrete pressure numbers in their publications? Or are they developing their max loads to a measured amount of strain to match the strain produced by SAAMI reference ammunition which was developed and checked in a professional lab with piezo transducers?

Big Ed,

The big reason the majority of published handloading data (I wouldn’t put it at 75%) is strain-gauge is because strain-gauge systems are cheap compared to piezo systems. It definitely isn’t because strain-gauges are more accurate, because they aren’t. But they do work reasonably well for comparative pressure readings, as noted before, especially if somebody with piezo equipment provides reference ammo.

Strain-gauge equipment, however, does not provide the sort of shot-to-shot accuracy required to do extensive statistical work, just as a cheap light-screen chronograph with a 1-foot spacing doesn’t provide anywhere near the shot-to-shot accuracy of an Oehler 35P. The AVERAGE reading from the cheap chronograph will probably be very close to the Oehler’s, but the velocity of specific shots will be very different. I know this from testing many chronographs against an Oehler 35P. The difference between a strain-gauge and a piezo test is similar.

Yes, Google is wonderful thing, and I use it often, but it is not the sum of all knowledge. You tend to abuse it. This thread was started by somebody wondering what large rifle primer might work best in a muzzleloader. The test you keep posting was with very different powders than he’ll be using, and in the .30-06, not a muzzleloader. And before you even got that far, you felt compelled to post another test of SMALL RIFLE primers. It appears to me that for whatever reason, you simply must show the world how much you “know,” even if it’s irrelevant to the question at hand and somebody else did the research.

No, you won’t find much about my primer tests on the Internet because I only write for two websites, this one and my own. The reason? I make my living as a writer, and the Internet doesn’t pay nearly as magazines and books, even in this day and age. The Internet is a complement to print media, but so far hasn’t replaced it, despite predictions to the contrary.

You asked about my body of work. I have been getting paid for writing magazine articles and books for over 40 years now, and making my entire living as a writer for over 30. Over 1600 of my article have appeared, a few in state and regional publications but 98% in national publications. These weren’t just shooting publications but hunting, fishing, sports, wildlife, history and general-interest magazines, including Sports Illustrated and National Geographic.

I did a little gun writing in the 1980’s but really got started in the early 1990’s, after deciding to diversify a little. It turned out several editors liked my stuff, and their readers liked it as well, and by around 2000 the majority of my income came from shooting-related writing.

The list of magazines I’ve published articles about firearms-related topics in includes (but isn’t limited to) American Rifleman, Guns, Handloader, Petersen’s Hunting, Rifle, Sports Afield and Shooting Sportsman. I’ve served as a staff writer and columnist for all of those except Guns & Ammo, and right now do the optics and rifle-handloading columns for Guns and the rifle column for Sports Afield. Have also contributed to annual publications such as Handloader’s Digest, the Hodgdon Annual Manual and Gun Digest.

In addition to those magazine articles I’ve written 12 books and co-authored three, and my magazine articles have been reprinted in several books as chapters. (Oh, and reprinted in magazines published in other countries from Japan to South Africa.) Nine of the 15 books I’ve authored or co-authored involved guns or shooting optics, and right now I’m finishing up a rifle handloading book about the size of the average Gun Digest, which will appear around November 1st.

I haven’t gotten rich but make a better-than-average living, and have managed to collect a few nice guns and hunt around the world, taking just about every kind of game ever dreamed about when young. Have received several awards for my work, but the one that meant the most came from an organization of North American writers, for excellence in lifetime achievement. I happened to be the youngest recipient of the award, and it was very nice to get the approval of my peers.

Maybe this doesn’t measure up to having a blog on the Internet, but you asked.

mathman

The SAAMI reference ammunition is fired in a pressure test barrel and the chamber and bore are at minimum SAAMI dimensions. Meaning because of the minimum chamber and bore dimensions their results are the highest possible pressures you will ever see.

Now on the flip side of this if you have a worn milsurp rifle with a fat and long chamber and a worn barrel the pressures will be much less.

In the back of the Speer #14 reloading manual there is an article "Why Ballisticians Get Gray" and all the varibuls of testing. And why pressure testing is not an exact science and it is based on many variables.

Below is from Pressure Trace II Rifle Chamber Pressure Testing Hardware & Software (strain gauges)

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

"PressureTrace will generate PSI estimates without calibrating the system to a factory load!
Using factory ammo or a load reference with known pressure to verify results is always recommended but we recognize each chamber will produce different pressures and wildcatters may have nothing for comparison. PressureTrace uses both thick and thin wall open vessel algorithms to provide reasonably accurate pressure estimates from barrel, chamber and brass dimensions. Unlike other products PressureTrace does not require a large correction "fudge" factor for pressure held by the brass but the system can still be calibrated to match other pressure systems. For safety, NEVER exceed the loads in a reputable load manual."

Bottom line, a transducer is only accurate in the chamber and barrel it is tested in, and strain gauges are accurate enough to use in over 75% of the load data in our manuals. And if the manual states a model 70 Winchester was used for testing then a strain gauge was glued to the test barrel. And if the reloading companies use strain gauges for testing their bullets and powders what are we arguing about?

Do you have Quickload software, to get accurate reading from Quickload you need a chronograph. Then you must tweak the burn rate in Quickload until the two velocities match. And even then it is still an estimate. And this is because of all the various firearms will not generate the same chamber pressures.

And all the reloading manuals tell you to start low and workup for safety. Because no two rifles are the same and all the different components we use. And since we don't live in Europe CIP doesn't have anything to do with us with our SAAMI and pressure readings.

If the manual says a Model XXX was used for testing, without saying explicitly for pressure testing, it could very well be a sporter used to velocity test ammunition developed in a dedicated pressure gun.

I think Speer does this for one example.

Mule Deer

German Salazar is a world class competitive long range shooter and you Mule deer are not. You write about hunting, rifle rest, etc.

And your ego makes you think you know more about reloading than Mr. Salazar, and that's where you are wrong. And this pissing contest started over neck sizing where you are behind the times. And if I can get .001 or less runout when neck sizing and you can't then you are doing something wrong. And the end result of you and your insulting buddies is in the last post OP that he made. And who can learn anything here with all the insults and name calling. And if you think this is a first class site for reloading information your very wrong. This forum is a circus full of clowns patting themselves on the back and nothing more.


If you were such a great reloader Mule Deer why didn't you tell the OP in the "Cratered and Pierced Primers - Advice Needed" posting to use a thicker primer.

In the November issue of "Rifle" magazine is the first time I remember seeing your name because of being at this site. But I skipped over Rifle Rests" and went directly to Mike Venturino and "Interesting Rifles". So Mule Deer my preferred reading material doesn't deal with what you write about or your name might have stuck. You see Mule Deer in 1992 I was injured at work and could no longer hunt. And I took up collecting milsurp rifles and my favorite was the No.4 Enfield rifle.

So the real problem here is you never wrote about hunting or shooting a Enfield rifle and Mike Venturino did. And I really never heard of you before coming to this site. And then you tell me my advice on neck sizing dies was wrong. Now imagine someone saying you don't know how to pull the handle on your reloading press Mule Deer. The OP in the neck sizing posting removed his expander and half his runout disappeared. And you had the audacity to tell me I was wrong.

And German Salazar is a world class compeditive shooter and you just write about hunting and shooting. So I can assure you are not in his class or share his shooting ability or awards. Now get over yourself and realize you are not the only person in the world who knows how to reload.

Yes, Speer does exactly that, at least in most cartridges, and so does Hornady.

It’s plainly stated in the 9th Hornady Handbook (the most recent) on page 71: “When possible, loading data was fired in a special firearm designed to measure pressure….The barrel and chamber dimensions are carefully produced to exact SAAMI specifications. Data is generated until a maximum pressure, determined by SAAMI, is reached. These various loads are then text fired in commercially available firearms for velocity.” There is no mention of strain gauges, and a “special firearm designed to measure pressure” is obviously not a factory rifle with a strain gauge attached.

This section also mentions their method of primer selection, and says, “In larger cases with slower powders, magnum primers were used. These generally produce a hotter flame of longer duration and are useful for consistently igniting large charges of slow powders.” Please note there is no mention of flame length.

Big Ed,

I don’t comment on all threads, especially one where the answer is so obvious that several people will suggest it shortly—like the one on cratered primers.

I did not say you were wrong about neck sizing dies. I stated what the basic problem was with neck-sizing dies, and you felt compelled to suggest testing, which proved that exactly what I stated was happening. The rest of your “solution” to the problem involved uniforming brass and playing with the expander ball, techniques common to ALL sizing dies.

Gee, I’ve written about handloading and hunting with Enfield rifles in Handloader, but not in Rifle, so I guess that disqualifies me. I do experiment with dozens of cartridges to get them shooting the best they can, for whatever purpose, whether punching holes in paper or shooting long-range gongs, targets or varmints. If none of that is any interest to you, frankly I don’t care. If a writer’s heart gets broken because some keyboard commando doesn’t rear his stuff, then he’s never going to have a career.

I admire German, and as noted in an earlier post have gotten some interesting information from his writing. But as I also pointed out with specific examples, he often jumps to conclusions based on relatively little or even faulty data, which has nothing to do with his skill with a rifle.

And if you go to the bottom of page 71 it says the following.

"The vast majority of the data in this book was derived from the use of strain gauges."

So Mule Deer you forgot to tell us you are using selective editing to make yourself look good by leaving out some of the very important facts. And that being "The vast majority of the data in the Hornady reloading manual comes from the use of strain gauges. And you said I had a reading comprehension problem and your problem is you do not read "ALL" the information provided. And then you have the nerve to try and blow smoke up our backsides.

Mule Deer I wonder what would happen if I sent all the links here with your comments and your buddies saying douche, dickhead, [bleep], etc. what the publishers would think of you. And your ability to control a forum with your name all over it.

To the rest of you if you want to learn more about reloading then go to Accurate Shooter. You will not be dealing all the BS you have here in this three ring circus with all the clowns.

Good Bye Mule Deer, I have seen this "act" too many times with one person dominating the stage.

If I read anything you wrote about the Enfield rifle and reloading for it didn't impress me. And that's because I know more about reloading the Enfield rifle than you do.

I even have a great sense of humor and at Accurate Shooter I told them I was getting wide variations with my MagnetoSpeed and my No.4 Enfield rifle.



The smart ones said the cosmic rays were bouncing off the duct tape and causing the bad readings. And the others just didn't get it.

And in closing Mule Deer you will never know as much about the Enfield rifle as I do. And that's a fact because you have never read what I wrote in forums about the Enfield rifle or have all the manuals for its care and feeding.

So tell me Mule Deer what is Enfield bolt head timing. Don't worry I'm retired and have plenty of time. Now all you have to do is Google the subject.

Or just read this posting here, Steve Redgwell and I are "old buddies" from way back.

60s/65s in my 222
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../10385204/60s/65s_in_my_222#Post10385204

Big Ed,

Gosh, you're right! I didn't read enough of the Hornady info, probably because I've been proof-reading too much to get this book out.

Will check out your Enfield info. Am sure it will be interesting.

So what, you like your Enfields.

BFD.

Do Enfields kill deer better. Maybe I should go to your web site Big Ed because guys like me need to learn more about reloading and how to shoot. Do your Endfields do this?I'll hang out here. We have Big Stick for fun and Mule Deer for knowledge.

Goodbye Mule droppings, you keep your idiot friends.

I have better things to do than argue about neck sizing and strain gauges.

You just keep wading through this cesspool of fecal debris you helped create.

So reminds me of a little teenager who stomps his foot and screams statements as if the louder he is the more right he is.

oops, think I repeated what I said a week ago or so.

And if anyone clicks on your name and then your posts they will find nothing but insults and nothing to expand anyone's mind about reloading.

Bottom line, these forums are a cesspool of big mouth turds who just smell up the forum and add nothing to the knowledge base.

I can see why no one ever told me to come here, its just a group of mutual backslapping loudmouth idiots. And the shame of it is no one is stopping these people from dragging these forums and this webpage down the drain.