Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML

A side issue is the future of lead bullets at all. In California the antis are suing to prohibit the use of lead bullets to prevent lead getting into the California condor and killing them.

If they succeed, look for others to try to force this nationwide. The same environmental forces are working in Europe too.

At least the faster twist barrels can shoot copper conicals, at least until the antis decide they don't like copper either.

jim

Forcing Coloradans to shoot expensive powerbelts and low-BC blunt-nosed conicals? This just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

Have you ever even hunted in Colorado? Or read our regulations? There is no regulation that pertains to BC. As a matter of fact, I'm sitting here looking at Precision Rifle's Ultimate Conical bullet. Ever seen one? They're legal in Colorado. They have spitzer-shaped noses and a plastic tips!!!!!

And at the risk of repeating myself, I'll say it again---You can hunt with your scoped, sabot-shooting, smokeless powder-burning muzzleloader in Colorado. You just have to do it outside the special season. I don't know Pennsylvania's regs, but I would bet they're the same.

No one is forcing you to do anything other than comply with our regulations that were developed by our state game management agency with input from our citizens.

wakeman , that last post is what i would have exspected from you , to bad you didnt write it that way first .

ohhh and folks so you know mr wakeman is claiming copy write on what he posts . notice his request to the admin of that forum . its about3/4 way down

http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/sh...815a#Post749264

which by the way i dont see a copy write mark on this post eather ????
i also see you have removed savage arms from you signature line and are now signing just randy wakman ?

glade to see your still posyting a link to savage arms though as thats a good link

I can't find much to argue with here, except the first point. And I'm not sure if your remarks are directed to me, but since your reply was directed to me, I'll assume they were and reply.

First, to clarify, I never said I looked down on hunters with in-lines, Encore hunters, Omega hunters, Savage hunters, Knight hunters, or any of those. And I never attacked fellow hunters. To imply otherwise is disingenuous, an attempt to change the subject and avoid the real issues raised. Hell, I own two T/C in-lines and hunt with an Encore.

From my first post, what I said was: "I don't care if someone wants to shoot an ML with smokeless, sabots, and a scope. I just think their proper place is in the general firearms season. Or in places where there are too many deer and they need to be thinned."

No picking on other hunters, no derogatory remarks about how others want to hunt. So let's be clear about the issue, again from my first post:

"Special seasons."

The issue is special seasons, and what types of weaponry are appropriate for a season where the hunter is given an advantage.

I have some strong opinions on the subject, and I've outlined them pretty clearly.

On your first point, a comparison of in-lines to centerfires is not "disprovable" in and of itself. Now, if someone wants to say that an in-line is the equivalent of a centerfire, that would be absurd and disprovable. No one here has said that though.


What isn't "disprovable" is that there is a continuum of effectiveness and range from traditional muzzleloaders using traditional propellants and projectiles up to modern scoped centerfire rifles. What isn't disprovable is that today's most advanced muzzleloaders are somewhere in the middle of that continuum.

What's debatable (not "disprovable") is whether modern scoped muzzleloaders shooting smokeless powder and modern saboted bullets should be allowed in the special early seasons that were originated for hunters using weapons that put them at a disadvantage.

So let's be clear about the issues here--no one said modern muzzleloaders were bad.

No one is being "discriminated against."

And your last line "when everyone knows there are those that would prohibit hunting altogether and firearm ownership altogether" is a real red herring. This is a discussion by hunters and among hunters about the best way to regulate our sport. Nothing more. To raise that issue is just blowing more smoke.

My remarks were directed to Pierangelo Pedersoli, and sent to him.

No, my last post was not directed to you, Smokepole, it was generic.

Another generic comment is this:

It's simple. I believe the states and their bureaucracies exist to serve citizens-- not the other way around. Universal agreement is nothing I'd expect or even hope for, it doesn't happen in anything: politics, religion, hamster on a plane, global warming, you name it. Someone will always disagree, not always a bad thing-- otherwise we'd still be answering to the decendants of King George.

Maybe PA does have it right: if I want to hunt their flinter season, I can grab my A & H mountain rifle-- or just stay home.

The subject moots itself as far as "primitive"-- dog and spear always wins, as does bow and arrow.

It also moots itself based on area. In IL, we have no early muzzleloading season-- never have. We've also never had a "primitive" or "blackpowder" season.

And we still have counties where Buicks kill more deer than hunters do. No one needs to call Italy to discover this.

We can land a man on the moon, but we can't land a man on Rosie O'Donnell. Apparently technology has its limits?

Randy, I'm sorry, but have got to disagree with you here in a BIG way! At least until proven otherwise.

We MIGHT get Steelhead to land on Rosie O'Donnell IF we PAY him ENOUGH!!!

The ironic thing is, I think companies sold the inline idea because it was cheaper to make. Think about it - water pipe reciever and barrel, cap gun breech, and injection molded mattel stock. Other than a central ignition path, I can't think of an advantage. Virtually all I have handled don't have that ergonomic fit of a sidelock. Sometimes efficiency ain't all that counts, but I will concede they function perfectly - so do my sidelocks.

Well then: Never mind. Good one on Rosie, by the way, but I don't think technology has anything to do with that. Too bad about the IL seasons, when there are more deer killed by Buicks than bubbas, something's wrong.

We kill over 3-5 million deer each and every year in North America, with an unknown number of deer poached, close to 1,500,000 auto insurance claims filed, and the exact number of unrecovered, wounded deer estimated at a few million in addition.

Still, there are more deer in North America than at any time in known history-- whitetails were almost wiped out at the turn of the century, as you might know.

And STILL, there way too many deer than can be supported in some areas. I don't have the numbers of depredation kills, maybe someone else here does. There are no totals for estimated crop damage and forestry damage by deer country-wide, but in certain states there are: A 1997 study by the Pennsylvania State University pegged deer damage to agricultural crops at approximately $75 million. The NY Times pegged annual US nationwide damage at over $1 Billion.

With all these dead deer, all the kill and bury depredation, the massive herd kills in Wisconsin, the automobile insurance industry cries, the forestry industry complaints, the wanton waste from poaching, etc., etc.--------

Seems to me out of the 30 million deer in the US, there just might be enough to go around if we all work at it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Back in 1950, Alabama had an estimated 3,000 deer. In 1960, bowhunters killed TWO deer in Alabama.

Kansas deer were considered extinct from 1904 until 1933-- NO deer season until 1965.

Today Alabama has an estimated 1.6 million ++++deer and an annual archery harvest well over 40,000. There are some real brutes taken out of Kansas every year.

Just 80 or so years ago, when we had no concept of conservation, we had the US herd down to a couple of hundred thousand. Do I sound a bit less than impressed with our "rich history"? Maybe I am-- there were once 60 million Bison wandering the plains; but in our wisdom we got that down less than 1000 head by 1900. What blithering, drooling fools we were.

I'm glad deer are doing so well, who cares more about heathy game populations than a hunter? Since we now have better populations than at any time in our history, one can only hope we finally might be able to embrace the concept of sharing.

The great tradition was and is hunting, a tradition that died around the turn of the century because there was very little left to hunt. No such thing as a deer season in Kansas until 1965. Now that things are better, perhaps we can be as well?

Can you please name some stores in Colorado that sell Precision Bullets?

I was not aware that Colorado has two muzzleloading seasons. I then retract my earlier sentences condemming their ML policy. I had no idea there is a muzzleloading season in Colorado where sabots & scopes are acceptable.

However, I do not retract anything about Pennsylvania. At least not until they ban the use of flintlocks in their regular muzzleloading season (or) open an Inline-only season to match the Flintlock-only season.

Perhaps there is a time when one should "suffer Triple Seven's gladly," but this isn't one of those times. When I read repugnant swill like this from a non-hunter, non-shooter, technically incompetent fellow that is the poster boy for "Planned Parenthood," and does nothing but cut and paste the writing of others on Al Gore's Internet-- it deserves something. What I would suggest is not physically possible for most, nor is it easily described in anything but indelicate language.

I'd rather ALL muzzleloading seasons were completely abolished across the nation than to suggest that flintlocks be banned for one Mexican minute. It is this type of intolerance and bewildering brand of tripe that gives hunters a bad name. No one that cares at all about the sport of muzzleloading would make such a suggestion. It was those that favor flintlocks and sidelocks that got themselves organized in the first place, and gave ALL of us special seasons for their efforts. They deserve everyone's respect and gratitude for that.

As for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania: you made a very, very poor choice to awkwardly attempt to criticize. PA has one of the most active populations of hunters per capita in the entire nation, and the Pennsylvania Game Commision is a model game commission. They maintain public shooting ranges, youth mentoring programs, and on it goes. Just on Sept. 26, $11.7 million in new investments was announced by Governor Edward G. Rendell in conservation and recreation projects that are designed to help and protect natural resources. Not only does the PA Game Commission respond, so does the PA Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, the Governor, and PA citizens. That $11.7 million came from voter-approved Growing Greener II, a voter-approved $625 million bond issue, and Keystone �93, a DCNR fund generated from a portion of the realty transfer tax.

Hunters Sharing the Harvest (HSH) is a venison donation program that has been channeling donated venison to local food banks and soup kitchens since 1991. Each year, HSH helps provide needy Pennsylvanians with 200,000 meals of quality, high-protein venison. PA is a model hunting state.

Right now, Oct. 14 - 21, is early muzzleloader season-- hunt with whatever action you want. Hunt with a crossbow, if you've got the permit.

Oct. 19-21 is a special early firearms saeson-- Juniors or seniors only, or Members of the US military. A great idea, more states should be so thoughtful.

And, yes, AFTER the regular firearms season of late Nov. early Dec., there is a flintlock season: Dec. 26 - Jan. 13th.

PA does a fabulous job trying to please everyone, and they come closer than most any other state I can think of. The state supports hunting for one and all, the voters do, and the entire population is more involved and supportive than most of the states.

In thanks for all this, an untalented, uniformed, bigoted blowhard that has never hunted outside his own state calls for a "ban" on flintlocks-- in PA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? The only comfort one can take away from your scatological insanity, is that the sweet knowledge that in the case of 49 out of 50 states-- you just don't live here.

Either you ran out of meds, or you are waiting for test results. Either way, you owe both PA and those that CHOOSE to hunt with flinters an apology. We need to respect other people's personal equipment choices, in the hopes that our personal choices can be respected and understood as well.

The biggest problem with you Mr. Wakeman is you inability to read posts properly.... then spend a half-hour of your valuable time typing incorrect words as a result of your incompetence.

When I create a post that says Pennsylvania discriminates -- I'm not lying. Yes... that open ML season in Pennsylvania includes Flintlocks. I'm asking that inlines also be included in two ML seasons there - or have an Inlines-only season where flintlocks are banned -- just like Pennsylvania bans inlines in the flintlock season. Why should Flintlocks be allowed all of Pennsylvania's ML seasons and Inlines not allowed?? My search is for equality. Your search in this thread seems to be about collecting money. I'll tell you why in a minute.

Here's another reason you can't you read/decipher posts properly?

Who is this non-hunter - non shooter you are hiding? I hunt all of Michigan's deer & small game hunting seasons. I've posted this plenty of times on the same boards you visit. I just choose not to bring along digital cameras & video equipment there. At the range, I do not carry chronographs. But I give plenty of reports on what I'm shooting - what I'm doing at ranges. I just don;t do it here at 24hr Campfire. My home messageboard base is elswhere. It's a place where you rarely visit -- probably because you cannot compete.

At ranges or in the hunting woods, I do use a a range finder. I know how much energy I need at the distances I shoot -- so no chrono is required. I get all my velocity/energy info from your wallet.... your chrono reports.... not mine.

Now you tell me goofball... who's wallet is really smarter?? I already know who's brain can define member posts better & the proof is in your reply to me above.

You got to your position only because you have a fat bank account from being a magician of trade. Without that bank account, you would be nothing in this business. Why?... because only a few years ago, you came crawling to the CVA board with very little knowledge of this sport -- begging every regular there thru personal phone calls on how to muzzleload with the big boys. Another piece of evidence is in the above quote to me. You either cannot decipher writings or you lie to save face.

Perfect example of your lies is how you condemmed smokeless muzzleloading when the Savage came out. I still get emails about that from former posters of that CVA Board. You also don't remember the days when you helped the same CVA owners that you now want to spit on after being banned from that board for not offering proof of your accusations on safwety concerns.

Thru all these years, I have remained the same with my ideals. You have been ALL OVER THE WORLD with yours. Why?... because you only follow the money trail of sponsors that call you. If they will give you a dollar, you will endorse their product.

You are one sick puppy Mr. Wakeman! How anyone can trust your words is way-beyond me. You believe something one year - then not the next. Then the year after, you believe in the product again.

You make me dizzy. If it weren't for newbies of this industry, you wouldn't be able to sell anything. We need to call you "SHOW ME THE MONEY RANDY".

One last thing.... You have been appearing at many/various ML boards recently - only because you are coming out with a product to sell shortly. Otherwise, you would be absent for long spells on many of these boards. That's why you are flooding all the ML messagebaords lately - after being away for the most part - for the past two years. Ol' Randy wants to fatten that bank account some more - but first he must show his face & spark some interest.

So Randy is here everyday now because he's about to ask you to empty your wallet - so he can tell you more ML lies - on your TV screen. So please everyone - spend $24.95 to get dizzy with Randy very-very soon.

Now excuse me while I go throw up!

Well, it was close, but not quite the correct answer-- you missed it by just a pellet, or couple of bubbles as the case may be. Kids, please stay in school. Basic command of the English language can prove valuable.

Careful study of the �Flintlock Muzzleloader Season� by those with basic intelligence reveals that it is no more discriminatory to require the use of a �Flintlock� during flintlock season than it might be to require the actual use of a bow during bow season, to ask that you be a �Senior� to participate in a senior season, or indeed be a �Youth� to engage in a youth hunt. By nature, it is admittedly a bit confining to allow the hunting of only �deer� during deer season, but that form of species-specific discrimination is quite common. It is a series of jolting, riveting revelations, actually. Quite the stunner to those not skilled in the art.

Though 24 Hour Campfire is doing well, and hardly needs the traffic: importantly, this peculiar brand of special entertainment comes with no cover charge. Be good to one another, don�t forget to tip your waitress, and please try the veal on Thursdays.

Whick one of you Cat Fightin' Clowns is gonna break their purse strap first and whimper "uncle"......?

Laffin' here.

I believe Sportsman's Warehouse sells them. If you're interested in the answer, I'll check next time I'm there. I may have gotten these by mail order which is how I get most of my ML bullets. Either way, they are legal in CO so no one is forced to use "blunt-nosed low BC conicals."

Colorado does not have two muzzleloading seasons. Check the regulations if you have any questions. But Colorado does have four seasons (general firearms seasons) in which you can shoot scoped inlines with whatever powder and projectile you choose. So there is no "discrimination."

Also, if you check the Constitution and Bill of Rights, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in there on being able to hunt with whatever weapon you choose, in violation of state game laws.

Discrimination? I don't think so.

Speaking of kids!

You really don't get it! I figured after three chances - you finally would! The whole premise of my posts above is based on fairness, equal rights, non-discrimination.... all the same things Toby is seeking. I don't want to see any ML season banned. Would much-prefer to see "Inline-Only" season in that state added. The end-result should be non-discriminatory hunting allowed there -- meaning appease both factions or don't have speical ML seasons at all.

Your understandings always seem to have a price attached. Just like the 45 or-so day spell when you bashed White Rifles around 2-1/2 years ago because they couldn't pay the bill owed to you. You had a love affair with White prior to that -- then when the money stopped coming in - you hated them. Then a month or two later, the check came in the mail and the love affair was re-established.

Now you see my Toby website link attached as my signature and the "Triple Se7en" bashing starts. You are only willing to side with Toby on matters that include/involve your interests with Savage Rifle Co. But since that hyperlink I've added also contains material that's in competition to your wallet, you have a fit & start crying, bad-mouthing, name-callings of poster Triple Se7en ... etc.

Same with Jim Shockey. You hate to see him endorse American Pioneer family of powders because he's a source of competition to you - so you wrongfully bash the product at your ML rifles/components review home at Chuckhawks.com. This is the same family of powders that includes Goex Pinnacle.... a powder you once endorsed for a brief period of time -- well ... until they had 2nd thoughts on who their spokesman would be. I asked you three times to define those APP tests & you still fail to accompany my request - by not publicizing your breakdowns of these APP tests. Anyone in your field can create tests that show ignition/downrange inconconsistency. That's exactly what you did with APP family of powders. You doctored the results to get back at at source of competition named Jim Shockey.

You are a loser Mr. Wakeman. I hate individuals like you who appear at annual Shot Shows wearing worn-out knee pads. Keep stealing money out of all the newbies pockets with your products. They are the only ones that support your ideals.

All....

Am wonderin' why it is so hard for folks to adjust their personal preferences to a time frame set down by the Rule Makers designed to accomodate those preferences.

I'm makin' a fair guess that all facets of MLing can be accomodated, it is by choice, just pick the appropriate time and place and do it.

What's the big friggin' deal....

Exactly!

Why does Pennsylvania allow flintlocks for two ML seasons & the "other design" only (1) season?

I'm done on this subject... unless Randy issues me a reply.
See Ya'll at the next interesting thread.

Because that's the way we want it.....if you don't like it don't hunt in Pa!

Chris Laubach

Now don't go bringin' logic into this...