Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns ...now NYPD is down to 1.19%

RobJordan is moderator.

No, good Lord you're a freaking juvenile. I have an idea, why don't you let Blue handle this.

Blue is busy, and I'm his wingman.

Jim In Idaho posted this over on another thread...this is what I have been trying to say...

"Couple of baselines:
Placement is 90% of the game, then comes bullet performance and last comes headstamp.
The person who gets the first good hit (placement) in a gunfight is usually going to be the winner.
As noted several times here, the firearm has to satisfy Gunfight Rule #1 – have a gun.
When the S hits the F, it’s going to hit really suddenly. Good chance it will be dark, too.


I’ve had one experience using a handgun in an emergency situation and it was embarrassing. I’m a good shot, not world class but good - when I take my time. I've verified this in silhouette and bullseye matches against other good shooters.

But 40 years ago when a very pissed off razorback came at me I missed him 3 out of 4 shots at something like 8 feet and the last shot hit him in the foot. If he hadn’t been mostly dead already I’d have some really cool scars today.

That colored my opinion on defensive handguns ever since.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I got something that hits exactly where my wide open eyes are looking.

I carry a gun that hits right where I’m looking when I grab it really fast and stick it out there and shoot as fast as possible without aiming or shifting my grip or other niceties, same as I would when my primitive brain suddenly realizes I’m about to really and truly die. That’s it. That’s 98% of the criteria. The other 2% is caliber and bullet construction and all that other stuff.

FWIW, it’s small enough to always be with me while still throwing something that hurts. I always carry the same gun in the same place so I don’t have to waste milliseconds thinking about things. The one I carry has a great reputation for reliability and this particular specimen has been tested enough to verify that. But the fact that it fits me came first.

I may be wrong on this, I’ve never been shot at and hope I never have to put this to a test, but that’s my take on the subject."

And Bob if it's that hard chromed Commander in Super 38; I'd say you have chosen well. You have a reliable pistol that's very shootable, and it just oozes cool!!

I'm not trying to say it was an easy shot, clearly it wasn't. The report said the assailant fired "almost a dozen rounds".

But when you watch the video you hear VERY rapid shooting, clearly there's not anyone who's really making a concerted effort to make their shots count. Toward the end you hear 4 much slower shots, like someone just clicked and realized he needed to slow down and make his shots count.

No I wasn't there, and there's no guarantee I would do better. But as a shooter, I have to seriously call into question 4 guys emptying their mags and only one round connecting.

I've been to a LOT of officer involved shootings, and I've never seen that many rounds expended with only one hit. You have to question that kind of hit ratio. You want to give the guys the benefit of the doubt, but they shot 84 rounds and the assailant fired less than a dozen. So they were taking fire, but only a fraction of what they were giving.

And I'll even allot for the cops using suppressing fire. Many instructors will tell you there's no such thing with a handgun, but that's BS. I know because it's a tactic I've used on several occasions in force on force training, and it can be quite effective, especially when someone has the drop on you. You crank off several rounds with the best accuracy you can muter to just break his initiative, and then fire your best shot to close the deal...I've done that a few times and it just plain works (although my finishing shot was never in the leg). But even accounting for the tactic of suppressing fire, you still have 4 cops expending 84 rounds and connecting once!! I understand Blue & Travis wanting to give the cops the benefit of the doubt, but daaammm...

I think it'd be a lot easier if everybody just accepted that when people run and shoot back, hit percentages get really, really low.




Travis

Where would be the reason to dick fence with one another?

I do accept that and I don't see how anyone could construe anything that I said to me not getting or accepting that. Yeah hit percentages go WAY the pukk down, but at some point you have to say the hit percentage has gone down well south of what anyone could expect to be due to the stress of combat...And I'd say a 1.19% hit ratio is comfortably into the unacceptable range...and that's what I've been saying all along.

But hell yeah, it's rare when people shoot to their potential when someone is shooting at them. Best shooting I've ever seen under stress was a California Highway Patrolman who had a speeding vehicle come at him; the driver was trying to kill him by using his vehicle as a weapon. That cop fired two rounds at around 10 yards, and through a windshield put one round just above the right eye, and another round through the carotid artery of the assailant...amazing! And I've seen quite a few Sacramento cops (Sheriff's deputies and City PD) actually shoot better in combat than they did at the range.

But to your point, it's SERIOUSLY RARE for people to shoot well while taking fire. But one hit out of 84...you HAVE to question that. Now maybe there was some good reason, maybe all 4 cops were trying to balance on marbles while shooting or some other extreme challenge. Or maybe they had the upper hand the whole time, broke leather and started jerking the triggers as fast and as hard as they could. My bet is, it's somewhere in the middle, but leaning toward the trigger jerking side.

If you were using suppressing fire in an LE environment I would like to have been there for the hotwash. I was not aware that there were Dept.s that condoned not being accountable for every shot fired. FOF training is conducted to teach the correct methodology in a manner that demands accountability for each shot.

The more you post the funnier it gets.


mike r

COVERING FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Travis

Yeah. And I've been laughing ever since.




Travis

I wasn't a cop, but I was training with cops. Suppressing fire doesn't mean hose down the entire zip code. To be effective, you have to be reasonably accurate enough to present a threat, that's what gets the other guy to break off. And no it wasn't something they were specifically training, it's something I just did when someone got the drop on me. But after using it successfully a couple of times, it's something that I put in my little mental tool kit because it can work, and it beats just giving up and dying just because they got the drop on you.

Because you don't hit your intended target with every shot doesn't make all the misses reckless or negligent. A near miss has to account for the same environmental factors as a hit...meaning you still have to be sure of your target and what's behind it.

No, assuming they were all carrying G19s. That would be 96 rounds

You really need to come up with some new material, you're just unimaginative. Rather than talk through an issue, you just ridicule. You do that because you're defending a hit ratio of 1.19% and you're just plain wrong, so when in doubt just sling chit. Like I said before, just juvenile. But those with any critical thinking skills can see through it for what it is; sniveling.

Are you done pretending to know what you're talking about now?

Or are you going to keep providing me with material?





Dave

Only members of the club here at the Fire know what they're talking about, right?

Just waiting for you to point out where I got it wrong...'cause you just can't. That would require thinking beyond the next wisecrack, and you just have no mental depth.

Ok Gibson. Since you think you know what you're talking about and have deemed these officer's shooting ability as unacceptable...

Break down the gunfight for me. Distances. Lighting. Cover and concealment. Officers involved. Speed of target. Shooting while moving, shooting while not moving. All of it.

And after you break that down, tell me how it compares to Use of Force statistics around the country.

Go.



Travis

Name the members and I'll let you know.




Travis

I love this thread

BTW I am not a member. I just have one.