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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,612 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,612 Likes: 1 |
Bill Allard and jim Cirillo were both NYPD officers and they were holly terror in a gunfight.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949 |
Im bored and have some time to waste so I thought I would bump this.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,416 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,416 Likes: 6 |
Nice to have somebody like RJM here to tell us how it really is being a cop.
I understand that no Kalifornia police agency will hire anyone who has been in any of the military special forces units. LAPD and other departments will not hire ex Marines. Don't know where you came up with this bit of misinformation, but it's incorrect. The LAPD has traditionally been a Marine Corps "mafia", with LAPD organizations, clubs and fraternal groups made up of former Marines. It's encouraged. Academy training is still based on Marine cadence calls and PT; the student class leader will traditionally be a former Marine. Probably close to 30-40% of the new recruits now have military prior service in their background. Former military get preference in hiring. The department actively recruits on Camp Pendleton, FT Bragg, FT Irwin, etc. Ex-military (including SOF) are encouraged to join and are VERY well treated by the department. They're older with more life experience, which Personnel Div and cadre both realize and desire. Having come from an SOF background with 24+ years on the LAPD, I think I have some insight into our hiring practices. Bob I agree with RGK. Although I'm not that familiar with the recruitment policies of the LAPD, I am familiar with the recruitment policies of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. The LASD has always gone after former military men, whether regular military or special operations members. L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15 |
I wasn't a cop, but I was training with cops. Suppressing fire doesn't mean hose down the entire zip code. To be effective, you have to be reasonably accurate enough to present a threat, that's what gets the other guy to break off. And no it wasn't something they were specifically training, it's something I just did when someone got the drop on me. But after using it successfully a couple of times, it's something that I put in my little mental tool kit because it can work, and it beats just giving up and dying just because they got the drop on you.
Because you don't hit your intended target with every shot doesn't make all the misses reckless or negligent. A near miss has to account for the same environmental factors as a hit...meaning you still have to be sure of your target and what's behind it.
kevin, I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept. Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says. With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,699 |
I wasn't a cop, but I was training with cops. Suppressing fire doesn't mean hose down the entire zip code. To be effective, you have to be reasonably accurate enough to present a threat, that's what gets the other guy to break off. And no it wasn't something they were specifically training, it's something I just did when someone got the drop on me. But after using it successfully a couple of times, it's something that I put in my little mental tool kit because it can work, and it beats just giving up and dying just because they got the drop on you.
Because you don't hit your intended target with every shot doesn't make all the misses reckless or negligent. A near miss has to account for the same environmental factors as a hit...meaning you still have to be sure of your target and what's behind it.
kevin, I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept. Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says. With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE. Roger that. The LAPD discussed it (usually in roll call training) a lot after the North Hollywood caper, but it was never taught. One of those "once in a 25 year career" happenings that you can't really train for, but someone comes up with a solution at the time that works. Don't remember too many rounds "hosed" all over "the entire zip code". Quite a few controlled pairs fired in tandem, though. Would love to hear how suppressive fire works when someone gets the drop on you. Interesting. Bob
Last edited by RGK; 11/02/15.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,964 Likes: 15 |
RGK
With your SOF background, I am sure you are quite familiar with the doctrine:
A command and support element, a base of fire element, and a maneuver element.
Obviously METT-TC dependent, but a similar concept would work for LE of they were well versed.
Heck it often happens anyways, the officers just adapt to the dynamics of the present situation, unaware that the concept is a doctrine within Infantry and SOF units.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
kevin,
I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept.
Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says.
With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE.
It's nothing anyone was actually "teaching or training" it just kinda happened when we were doing force on force. In a few instances it worked and worked well.
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471 |
kevin,
I would b interested to hear of your experiences where you used covering fire. Outside of the military it is not an often used concept.
Personally I have no issue with covering fire,if it allows the maneuvering element to do as doctrine says.
With that said, I have not seen it taught as a course of action for regular patrol officers in LE.
It's nothing anyone was actually "teaching or training" it just kinda happened when we were doing force on force. In a few instances it worked and worked well. Nerf wars can get out hand sometimes. Dink
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
well, aside from all the silly tangents, I wonder what is the average hit % for officer-involved shootings?
The reason for asking is, the next time some gun grabber tries to ban hi-cap mags, I think it makes a compelling argument that "...even police officers miss xx% in real encounters. If you only have 6 or 7 shots on hand, you are at risk if confronted by determined or multiple attackers..."
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Cool.
err...not cool, but useful, thanks.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,622 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,622 Likes: 4 |
So are you saying that 84 rounds and one hit is okay? Sure it all turned out just fine in this incident, but what about next time?
Lots of extra humanity in NYC...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave They're better shots than I thought. Either that or most incidents end decisively and those that go wrong, go wrong in a big way.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave Do you have a source for that?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471 |
The latest numbers compiled by the FBI state that 70-80% of shots fired by LEO miss their intended target.
Dave Do you have a source for that? What was the hit percentage when you were doing that suppression fire force on force training? Dink
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