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I never thought of prayer- which is a trip into the Spiritual Dimension - as an altered brain state, but I suppose it fits OK.

As far as the "proverb" I quoted, stuff is not true just because it's in the Bible. Some stuff is in the Bible because it's true.

Big difference.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Of course you are being dishonest. You understand the difference between evidence and proof, we've discussed it many times, yet you intentionally conflate the two.

You admit to having no evidence to present, and are not even capable of defining your god, nor the atheist that you claim do not exist. You've been give proof for the existence of atheist as I defined them, yet you've never addressed it, because you can't.

The fact that you cannot, or at least will not, even define your god is sufficient reason not to accept him. Perhaps it's due to a lack of intellect, or maybe this is just another one of your attempted apologetic tricks, regardless, there is no sounds reason for an skeptic to believe in that which cannot be defines, nor for that which you cannot, or at least refuse, to offer evidence.

Saying a prayer?

That's your idea of a "trip to the spiritual diminution"?

I was expecting something much more immersive before you would classify it as a "trip".

"Saying a prayer?

That's your idea of a "trip to the spiritual diminution"?

I was expecting something much more immersive before you would classify it as a "trip"."

Once again, your ignorance of the Spiritual Realm is exposed.

Prayer is the most common "trip" that experienced travelers make.

You are so full of misconceptions that there is no room left in your mind for learning.

A mind which willingly shackles itself to Science is indeed small, no matter its intellectual prowess.

My mind is not small, I'm just as susceptible to delusions and altered mind states as many others. I cannot be hypnotized, and hydrocodones, morphine, and anesthesia produce no mind altering effects on me. Dan Barker talks about how he can put himself into a state of euphoria anytime he chooses. I suspect I would not be able to duplicate that feat. Sam Harris has also studied Buddhist who can do the same, but again, we understand the brain chemistry and brain mechanics involved.

As for my ability to learn. I learn everyday. I just don't believe the acceptance of fairy-tales as truth is a prerequisite for learning. If anything, by not accepting fairy-tales I can learn more truths that can be discovered by science.

As for your prayers allowing you to travel to the spiritual realm, all you are demonstrating is your capacity for self delusion.

But hey, at least you are not hallucinating an alien abduction. I understand those can be a little more unpleasant.

AS, get help, buddy. Ya got issues.

OT,

I'm not the one having delusions, but thanks anyway.

Come on back when you have some more of your Fall River Cowboy wisdom for us.

Thanks.

AS - I DO have some evidence of something. Given the delusional content and the style of your posts here, it is evident that you are having some problems in dealing with these discussions. Wish I could be of help, but am not the one to do so. Best wishes.

You sound as if you were expecting tales of "out of body experiences" when I mention the Spiritual Realm. I'm not doubting that those occur, but the real benefits of living a Spiritual life are things that bring us peace of mind in our daily lives.

It's really just like Physical Laws and the science issuing from them. I'm real glad, for instance, that water seeks its own level and that it only rises a certain amount in a vacuum.

That is more important to me than theorizing about Black Holes, for instance.

Communicating with The Creator through prayer and meditation is to the Spiritual Realm what Gravity is to the Physical.

Told ya this was a popcorn worth debate!

Curdog,

One of the reasons I like to ask folks to define with they mean by things like "the spiritual realm" is that they can seldom even explain what they mean by that.

Lets take a look at your latest definition:
"things that bring us peace of mind in our daily lives". Since this discussion is centered on what you consider the super-natural, I assume (but correct me if I am wrong) you are not including the mundane, such as life insurance, a good carry weapon, a reliable income, a paid off house ect?

Based on your early reference to proverbs, I assume you mean those ideas that bring comfort, such as accepting that which you cannot change, and that change is persistent, and death is inevitable? Greek philosophy was addressing these ideas before Socrates, without the need for invoking a supernatural realm.

Perhaps you mean seeking a world view that leads to all the above, both the mundane and intellectual that leads to a life "things that bring us peace of mind in our daily lives". I can't argue with the end you have in mind, I just don't agree that it requires a supernatural component.

In this respect, we may be traveling to the same destination, just taking different roads.

Try this and you can see how wrong your assumptions are:

The Spiritual Realm is that part of our minds which connects us to a Self Existent Creative Entity which is incomprehensible to us using the same faculties we use to comprehend the Natural world.

It is "discovered" using the same principle of ,"if this, then that" which are at he root of all scientific discoveries. Put simply:

"Something" created this Natural world I inhabit. I wonder if that "Something" can read our thoughts? I'm going to act as if IT can and see what happens.

One can also just ASSUME that a creation requires a Creator but ASSUME that such a Creator could have no interest in Its creatures and make no attempt at communication.

It is an extremely small minority that will devote an inordinate amount of time and mental energy into developing a conviction that a creator is not required for a creation.

Imagine eighty men marching to a cadence and the only one "in step" is the Atheist.

THAT'S your position.

ETA... You didn't really confuse a "benefit" described in my last post for an "explanation". The explanation is in the last paragraph of that post. And you knew it. You've become a counterfeit conversationalist on this topic.

I sometimes marvel about some scientific/technical discoveries and accomplishments by mankind. However, the wonder of those is pale - very pale - in comparison some acts and behaviors emanating from the heart and soul - in my perception, Spiritually driven.

So the Pope reached out to this woman and had a private meeting with her.

like she needed to be more empowered to do whatever the f she wants

Her LITERAL 15 minutes of fame. The Vatican will neither confirm, nor deny, the visit.

She probably was granted time with an Aide, not the Pope.

Curdog, regarding your previous post, sorry I just missed you last sentence, but I'm happy to address it here.

You propose, "Communicating with The Creator through prayer and meditation is to the Spiritual Realm what Gravity is to the Physical." That's interesting, because gravity is what holds together the our material universe. without it, everything would fly apart and the objects we see would have never come to be. So by extension it appears you are asserting that pray holds the spiritual realm together. Considering how there were no humans to pray for the first 9 billion years of the universe, and allow it to form, or hold it together it doesn't sound like it would of survived till now.

As for your simple proof, it appears you were not paying attention when GB and I discussed how to ask the question regarding the origins of our universe in a non-biased way. You presented it in the opposite manner by presupposing it was an intentional act of creation, then jump to a second presupposition that it was an intelligence all with no sound reason for doing so.

As for your 80 men argument, that's just an argumentum ad populum, or an appeal to the masses. I'm sure you don't believe in man caused global warming just because it the opinion of a mislead majority?

In addition, you one in 80 analogy fails to capture the growing secularization of the modern world. In Briton only 5% of the population now regularly attends religious services. In the US, almost 25% never attend services. Within the US, in your age group, 71+, only 7% are non-religious, but in the 18-30 age group it's 26%.

One of the biggest forces working against your position is the internet. With the greater availability of skeptical views regarding religion, we've seen jumps of 10% in the number of Americans never pray, never attend religious services, and believe the Bible is just a collection of myths. All of these trend lines remain strong. If this continues, by the time my youngest is 18 a third of her age group will non-religious.

To summarize, lets restate your though process.

First you must presuppose our Universe was created by an intelligent entity, and that this entity can read your mind. You then pray, or meditate to this entity, and if your brain experiences a release of dopamine, you've then "proven" this made up entity exists?

That doesn't sound very reasonable or logical to me, but as you mentioned above, you position is one that requires an abandonment of reason.

Last time I looked, there was a distinct difference between "abandonment" and "going beyond".

Prayer doesn't hold the Spiritual Realm together.... it is the way we learn more about it.

You can't see gravity, but you know it exists because you can observe its effects.

It's the same with the Spiritual Realm.

And I see you are STILL bringing religion and churches into our conversation.

" you position is one that requires an abandonment of reason."

Nope... I said "abandonment of Self".... not "reason".

And this is the second time you have made this mistake.