Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Second Amendment Liberal Dem Wins Re-election in Indiana - Libertarian the Cause.

It look like ultra liberal Julia Carson will retain her seat in the US Cong. She has 50%, her conservative Republican opponents has 47% and the Libertarian has 3%.
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<br>I can't help but feel that votes for Libertarians are wasted votes at best and damaging to gun rights at the worst.
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<br>What we need to do is get conservative pro-gunners to run on the GOP ticket. That way we'll have a chance.
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<br>Carson may have won by a handfull of votes any way but the vote for the Libertarian eliminated any chance for the conservative.
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<br>Hell maybe Libertarins are agents of the liberal left in place to insure liberals win.
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<br>Norm

Norm, it's good to have the libertarians around so that when the Republicans put up someone who is anti-gun, we have someone to vote for and show the Republicans why they lost as a lesson for next time.

Norm, I'm very sorry you feel that way. But blaming the guy on the third party ticket is akin to blaming the gun for a shooting and you know it. Maybe Deputy Barney would be a better handle.
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<br>I'm a Libertarian. I vote my consence. Yes alot of times it is third party. I cannot bring myself to vote for the guy I dislike the least in an election. If and when it comes to that, Pizz on it. I'll stay home.
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<br>If you honest to God believe that the republicans are gonna be the saviors of your rights, I got some oceanfront in Arizona you may be interested in. Remember Bush Sr selling out on the assault rifles? How about G.W. rolling over on campain finance reform?
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<br>These A**holes do and say whatever will get them in office. And believe you me, they're gonna go whichever way the political wind is blowing once they're in. Gotta stay on the gravy train, you know.
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<br>The only way I see to fix this mess is to get more people out and voting for their rights. I don't care if they register as Martian Party, if I agree with them they got my vote.
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<br> If we can't fix this with a ballot, then we'd better start thinking about some other method. Quickly.
<br>7mm

7mm,
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<br>Sorry I got your dander up. I actually voted for a Libertarian today.
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<br>My point is that in a close election we had a very liberal antigunner congressperson up for re-election. And for the first time in years we had a decent chance of unseating this very liberal cong person. Without the Libertarian we had a slim chance to get a conservative into office. With the Libertarian we had no chance.
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<br>I have nothing against Libertarians per se. Some of my best friends are Libertarians. I espouse much of the Libertarian philosophy.
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<br>But as shooters and gun owners we would have been better off with McVey than Carson.
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<br>Our best chance is to work as hard as we can to get the best conservative candidates nominated or elected in the primaries to the GOP so we can have any realistic chance of getting them elected in the fall.
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<br>I voted Libertarian in for Congressional seat in my district. I am not taken by the morals of the GOP long-time Congressman. I made a statement. But if the race was anyway near close I would have voted for the reprobate anyway because of his long-time progun record.
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<br>Deputy Barney indeed!!
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<br>Norm

Hawk,
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<br>Please read my reply to Mr. 7mm. I agree with you.
<br>I voted for a Libertarian for the Cong district in which I live.
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<br>Anyway I hope I explained what I actually meant more clearly in the reply to 7mm than I did in the original post.
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<br>I don't always do or say the most popular things in the politcial areas of this forum. But I am on the side of conservative gun rights 100%.
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<br>Norm

Sorry I got edgy on you. I take back the Barney crack. Still, you gotta admit it was witty.
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<br>Our Gubenatorial race has the liberal demorat ahead by double digits. I don't know that the repub is any better though. I went third party. As I said, I will not vote for someone I don't like, just because I like the other guy even less.
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<br>Maybe the answer isn't in third party candidates. But you can be pretty sure it's not in the first two either. If it's "none of the above", then we got some house cleaning to do in D.C. and our state capitols. I'm all for term limits, and knocking down the pampered hi-class status enjoyed by all of our elected officials. This country was formed by honest citizens to be governed by the same.
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<br>I'd also like to see a total news blackout until the polls are closed. And do away with these media polls before an election. I see a 2 digit lead in a media poll and think, "Why bother?'. I bet alot of others do to.
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<br>I do know one thing. I have alot of friends who own guns, but aren't registered to vote. I'll wager you have the same. We all need to get these jerks registered and voting. If we gun owners unite and vote as a block, we'll be a force to be reckoned with.
<br>7mm

7mm,
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<br>It's OK I re-read my original post and can see why it was inflamatory. More so than I had intended. I was still steamed by the 50/47/3% split and an important loss for gun rights.
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<br>And Dep Barney was witty. No doubt about that.
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<br>And yessir, I wholeheartedly agree. We must get the non-voting gunowners off their collective arses and into the voting booths.
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<br>One of the reasons I told glockblaster about the Campfire is that he puts 110% into his efforts to get out the gunowner vote in our area. And certainly the local pols know him.
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<br>Norm

Deputy Fyfe would have been wittier. I just got it.
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<br>Norm, what is your view of Barney Fyfe? Good deputy, or no?

Not the libertarians fault.
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<br>The Republicans didn't loose the seat, they never had it. The Socialist retained the seat.
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<br>The problem lies with the inhabitants of the State. Not the Libertarian Party.
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<br>JMHO

I don't vote Republican because I'm not a Republican...I vote Libertarian because I am a Libertarian...I voted Republican once in '94 and won't betray my party again...BTW wasn't it a Republican President who signed one of the worst Bans into Law in '89

BTW 7mm we all know Gunowners who aren't members of the NRA..getting them to join would be a big part of the solution...I'm willing to bet that less than 30 percent of the members here are members of the NRA..

I am and have been for 40 years!

I've been an NRA member for 25 years, but I am also surprised by how few shooters are members. Many of them believe the propaganda of the left that the NRA is the reason for draconian gun control, i.e., "If only they would accept "reasonable gun regulations" the libs wouldn't push for the draconian legislation." Which reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Their goal is not to regulate guns, but to eliminate them in the hands of any but police and military, as a prelude to one world socialist tyranny. History has demonstrated this time and time again. When the government wants the citizen unarmed, there is a reason behind it. Anyone with common sense knows that when the law abiding citizen is armed, criminals are deterred, so gun control is not crime control, but crime encouragement. Criminals are emboldened by an environment where citizens are disarmed by their governments. So are tyrants.

Way too many talk the talk but are afraid or just too apathetic to walk the walk!
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<br>They, however will be the first in line to complain when their "PET" firearm comes under attack and not understand why it is happining to them. DUH!
<br>THE SECOND AMANDMENT IS NOT ABOUT HUNTING! It is about rights!

to vote libertarian is to COMPLETLY waste your vote unless you want to hurt a republican,,, then it's not a waste. ie, S.D. senate race was lost by republicans because of the libertarian who got 3000 some votes. I can garantee most of those votes would have gone to the republican who lost by 500 votes. Libertarians are losertarians,,,,, thats what Micheal Medved essentially said on his radio show yesterday and I agree totally with. Pathetic...

Yeah Tee, right. And we all know guns cause crime.
<br>7mm

What part of "I'm not a Republican" did you not understand ?.
<br>Besides Republicans are not friends of the 2nd Amendment the 1989 Assault Weapons Ban is proof of that...signed into law by our current president's father.. or did you conveniently forget that ? or were you even aware of that ?

Democrats= no brains.
<br>Republicans= no guts,
<br>I have both. I am a Libertarian

TRH,
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<br>I've laughed to myself several times over the past few days. I've pi**ed people off before and have been called names before. But Deputy Barney? I'd have to say 7mm is a gentleman even when his dander is up.
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<br>What do I think? Well I still watch Andy G and Barney F occasionally. When I was in law enforcement, I used Barney as my roll model.
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<br>Seriously, in retrospect. I never should have hung the post. It was thoughtless and rude. I'd better cool off before I let my fingers do the walking.
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<br>Norm

RAM,
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<br>You are right. I never should have posted. I was reacting to the Libertarians 3% which was the difference between the candidates.
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<br>In the end it wasn't that close. The 3% would not have made any difference.
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<br>Norm

Logansdad,
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<br>You are correct about the betrayal. And I respect your right to belong to whatever party you want and vote any way you want.
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<br>But I also have the right to feel the way I do about third, fourth, fifth, etc. parties. Votes placed for these extra parties take away from votes for the major parties.
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<br>If conservatives vote for the Libertarian party that's mean those conservative votes are lost to the cause of gun rights.
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<br>I do feel, moreover, that there are times when the candidates from the majors are so far out of the realm of what we can accept we must cast votes for other parties. However, we must get active in one of the two majors to get better candidates for the fall elections and then vote for them.
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<br>Where do we as gun owners go from here? My thoughts are that a fringe party may make statements but can't really fix anything.
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<br>My efforts go to coopting the Republican party (because there is absolutely no chance to coopt the Dems) and getting the best candidates we can where we have a chance to win.
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<br>I espouse many of the views held by Libertarians but see them as like the hundreds of fringe parties in Europe always outside of any real power.
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<br>Basically I see the Republican party as the only hope for the future. Not because they've been so good to us in the past but because we need one of the two major parties to keep our gun rights.
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<br>Norm

Deputy Norm, I don't feel as any person's vote is a wasted vote. I applaud any person who does their given right to choose as they wish. How things add up at the end is the way it is plain and simple.
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<br>I remember a few years back when the same kind of election results were turned in by the Democrates over the Republicans, most people didn't have a clue as to why it happened, but it did................so history has a way of repeating itself. To many try and put a finger on the what if's and should a bin's. The Republicans have the ball in their court, lets see if they can score now. I will take a wait and see attitude concerning this matter.

now SD has a senator that got an F grade on the gun issue. THANKS to a 3rd party. How pray tell do you think we got Clinton for 8 years. This isn't rocket science. Simple......3rd party...ross perot or whatever his name was. Thanks

Norm, I have voted Libertarian in quite a number of national elections. I didn't feel my vote was wasted. It went to show the Republican establishment that they could not depend on my vote unless they upheld my liberties, under the Constitution. When George H.W. Bush ran for his second term, I voted Libertarian because Georgie boy showed himself to be an enemy of my gun rights, and of the Constitution of the United States. Then I vote Libertarian instead of voting for the wishy washy compromiser Bob Dole. I will not give anyone my precious vote who is an enemy of my Liberty, nor to anyone who is not a defender of them.
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<br>The reality unfortunately is that no Republican, who will actually uphold the Constitution, will ever be given a chance to run for the office of the President . We saw what happened when someone tried. Pat Buchanan had really gotten his pro-American message out, and people initially reacted overwhelmingly to support him. He won some of the early primaries over Bob Dole, but then the establishment came out in force, and the establishment owns both the Republican National Committe and the popular News Media in this country. You cannot fight them effectively. The message was put out that Buchanon was somehow a nut or a racist or, God forbid, opposed to Isreali interests, and that was the end of his chances. He was painted as someone beyond the pale, and he had no way of sufficiently countering that when the impression was created that the only acceptable view of him was as some kind of nut, and anyone who supported him must also be a nut. This same thing would happen to anyone running for nomination to the president on the Republican ticket who credibly advocated, for example, altering our immigration policy to some semblance of sanity, or the elimination of the IRS, or anything that is actually pro-American and pro-liberty.

Chigger,
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<br>Did you read my response to Logansdad regarding my respect of your right to vote for who you want.
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<br>It does, however, seem very plain to me that if
<br>candidate "X" has exactly no chance of getting elected, candidate "Y" is more amenable to my position,
<br>and candidate "Z" wins by one vote that I might just have wasted my vote.
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<br>I don't expect the Republicans to do anything spectacular for guns rights. But the Republican Party
<br>is the only chance we have to get pro-gun politicians elected. We need to work has hard as we can to get progunners on the ballots in the Republican Party.
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<br>Thanks for your comments. I understand how your feel and appreciate your position.
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<br>Norm
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Norm, I agree with you when it comes to Congressmen and, to a lesser degree, Senators, but not for Presidents. The establishment owns that office. You will never get anyone in that office who will enforce the Second Amendment or any aspect of the true US Constitution. Even if it means that the establishment will have to hire a gunman (not difficult for them), that's what they will do to prevent it.

Gee, here comes a black helicopter....look out!

OK Hawk,
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<br>I agree 100% percent with much of what you say. My issue is not the Libertarians or their party. My issue is how can we realistically get pro-gunners elected.
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<br>It is not a certain thing that the Libertarians are ever going to be significant players in national political life.
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<br>The Democrats will love them though. Like I love Ralph Nader for taking votes from Gore in the last election.
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<br>Can we agree that Gore would have been worse for gun rights that Bush?
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<br>In Indiana the Dems won control of the house by 37 votes. Dems in Indiana are always after our gun rights.
<br>Sure would have been nice if 38 Libertarians had voted Republican.
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<br>Norm

Hawk,
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<br>Then all is lost.
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<br>Norm

All is not lost, because the Congress is the legislative body, not the executive. It is much more difficult to manipulate congressional elections than it is to do so with Presidential election. There are too many Congressional elections going on at once for that. So, all is not lost.

TRH,
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<br>We are indeed in difficult times. Even so we must do the best we can to retain our constitutional rights. Maintaining a hopeful attitude is part of the battle.
<br>Along with strategy and tactics and the will to win.
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<br>Norm

I would never vote for a democrap...I don't trust the Republican'ts...I'm stuck with no other choice...

I think if the Libertarians could ever get their act together, and I believe they slowly are, they will front some viable candidates..
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<br>In GA we had a close Senate election between Max Cleland (D) liberal and Congressman Saxby Chambliss(R) conservative and a Libertarian I don't even remember the name, because I knew they couldn't win!
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<br>I will vote for Libertarians in "some" races as a statement of dis-satisfaction, but never if it will ensure a Democratic victory. I'll stick with the known entity!
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<br>Too Many Libertarian candidates aren't good at expressing their ideas and agendas either. They can't just repaet over and over they believe in less Govt. and personal freedom over and over..
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<br>Mike

Republican'ts !...