Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Considering a 257Roberts. Help!

Oh, so true. M77's are quite the deal out there used if you can locate a 'smith that don't affect the vapors when suggesting they square and straighten' them out for ya.

Then if you use Ruger low rings and a 36mm Objective, the R stock makes for a moderate priced, high quality prone stock.

too much fun

Pete_in_Idaho �
As I stated, the loads are based on +P data, which runs 50,000 CUP. Ruger chambers the same action for the .25-06 which runs 53,000 CUP and the .300 Win Mag which runs 54,000 CUP. Further, my Ruger .257 has a lot of leade (freebore). The primers are fine and the pockets are still tight after numerous firings, no sticky bolt lift or extractions, etc. While I would NOT recommend trying to achieve my velocities in an older rifle, these loads seem quite safe in my particular Ruger.

For example, take the 115g TSX load. Barnes claims 2901fps with the XFB and 45.0g H4350. Barnes also claims you can go up 1-2 grains with the TSX bullets. I�m getting 3013fps with 44.5g H4350, a half grain less than maximum for the XFB and even further under maximum for the TSX bullets. If you look at Hodgdon�s data for 115g bullets and H4350, 43.0g with the Partition runs only 44,400CUP.

Coyote:

My 24" barreled 1909 Mauser 25-06 chronos 3150 with 120 grain Partitions and 3220 with 115 grain Accubonds and X's.

To me, that's a bit more meaningful than 2975, but that's just MO.

Whatever makes ya feel good.

MM

Why do some people buy a .257 Roberts and then try to jack it up to a .257 Weatherby? The same goes for every standard cartridge.

I agree the .25-06 will do more than a .257 Roberts. Your original statement, to which I was responding, said


Even you seem to agree that a .25-06 with a 22� tube doesn�t provide much advantage over a 22� .257 Roberts, and I�m willing to bet that your .25-06 does NOT have a 22� tube.

My point was that even with different barrel lengths the .257 Roberts with modern loads performs well enough to do almost everything you can do with a .25-06. Given that the vast majority of game is taken well within the .257�s range, the .25-06 provides diminishing returns. Not zero returns, just diminishing.

For example, my 120g A-Frame load, when zeroed for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6� diameter target (the bullet is never more than 3� above of below line of sight), provides a MPBR of 288 yards and delivers 1379fpe at the 300 yard line. If we assume you can get the same 3150fps velocity with the A-Frames as you do with the Partitions, your .25-06 provides a MPBR of 305 yards and delivers 1598fpe at the 300 yard line. Other factors being equal, both will kill very well at either range.

If we stretch the range out to the point where bullet drop is 10�, the .257 reaches 355 yards and delivers 1246fpe while the .25-06 reaches 375 yards and delivers 1397fpe. At 375 yards the .25-06 has a nominal 3� advantage in trajectory and 200fpe advantage in retained energy. In 25 years of hunting Colorado big game, my longest shot, as was later measured with a GPS, was 350 yards, well within the .257�s capability.

If you�re reaching way out there for antelope, the .257 will provide 1000fpe at 470 yards with a drop of 30.8�. The .25-06 has a similar drop of 31.3� drop at 500 yards, at which range it provides 1106fpe. At that range (500 yards) the .3257 has dropped an additional 7� to -38� and retained energy falls to 943fpe. So yes � given a longer barrel length, the .25-06 provides an advantage at longer ranges, but I suspect that most people who are prepared to deal with the 31.3� drop of a .25-06 could deal equally well with the 38� drop of the .257 Roberts.

Your contention that a .25-06 is a �meaningful 25 caliber� while suggesting that a .257 Roberts is not is an argument that doesn�t hold water, even given different barrel lengths. To achieve its advantages, which don�t materialize until well past the range at which most game is taken, the .25-06 burns about 22% more powder and sacrifices the handiness of a 22� barrel.

I�m not knocking the .25-06 in any way and in fact think it is a superb cartridge. But to contend it is not a �meaningful caliber� is like suggesting the .30-06 is not a meaningful cartridge because the .300 Win Mag provides an advantage in a small percentage of actual hunting situations.

Think we had this discussion before. I quite agree with the other fellow. Why try to make the Roberts into something it isn't? The beauty of the bob is that it's a mild cartridge that gives good volcity. One can push the 25/06 also, but whatever the cartridge - the costs are short case and barrel throat life, also more stress on the action. It's possiable to hit 3500fps. with 100grs. and 3250 with the 117gr. in the 25/06 and still has the primer pockets last more then 2 or 3 shots. but the cost is the same as with anyother cartridge. I have 2 25/06s, 1-24in. barrel & the other with a 23in. barrel they give almost identical volcitys. Had a 25/06 on a Springfield with a 22in. barrel back in the early 90s and speeds were just about the same as the 2 I've got now. Maybe 50-60 ft. less.

SuperCub,

I like that one!

BTW, My severely handy-capped, short action / 22 inch barrel Mnt Rifle Bob will only do 3100 fps with 100 grn TSX's into .5 moa, but I guess I'll get by. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Guess we�re just going to disagree on this one.

Increasing the velocity for a 120g bullet from 2807fps (the velocity of a Federal 120g Partition load from my rifle) to 2947fps (my handload velocity for a 120g A-Frame) increases recoil from mild and comfortable 11.1 foot-pounds to an excruciatingly painful 12.1 foot pounds. (For comparison, 12.1 foot-pounds recoil is about the same as 170g loads in my Marlin .30-30.)

So far I haven�t experienced short case life and the stress on the action is no greater than other cartridges for which the action is chambered � like the.25-06 or .300 Win Mag or any of the various 52,000 CUP cartridges, yet I don�t hear you calling for people who shoot those cartridges to download them.

IMHO its not a matter of trying to make the .257 Roberts something it isn�t, it�s a matter of loading it to its capability.

Handloader #221 has an excellent article penned by John Barsness entitled "Bob" Revisited. In it he does an excellent job explaining the whys and whats of loading (NOT overloading) the 257 Roberts to it's potential. A "must read" in my book. I used it as a guideline when loading for my Roberts and had very good luck doing so.

kecatt,

I agree! That article came out within a month of aquiring my Bob. It's in my "reference pile" on my bench. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Reviewing my load data shows 3020fps for a 100 grain Interlock at a touch under 1", 3 shot groups in my M77, with COL set at 2.9". IIRC I was able to work up to over 3100fps as per JBs data in the article. 3020fps gave the best accuracy and shoots flat enough for me.....

Coyote:

Sorry you took my original comment, which was more or less tongue in cheek and meant to bit a bit humorous, so seriously.

The Bob is a fine cartridge and a very nostalgic one at that and I like nostalgia as in 300 H&H, 30-06, etc.

You have the numbers pretty much correct and they jibe with my calculations from Remington's Shoot program but I guess I do view the numbers in a bit of a different light or perspective.

On a gun such as the 257 or the 25-06, I limit the top end of the game spectrum to deer and the range to wherever the velocity is at 2000 FPS and energy to >1000 FP.

I do not talk in terms of MPBR........I talk about where I'm zeroed and know the drop from there. I use mostly Mil-Dot scopes and have the luxury of a 500 yard range to verify the data..........rarely does real life = the computer calculations; usually not quite as good. One explanation is in the BC's given by bullet manufacturers - most are too optimistic.

However, I digress.

Your Bob, by your numbers and mine show the 120 gr. A-Frame, BC=.382, with 31" of drop, 927 FP of energy and a remaining velocity of 1865 FPS at 500 Yds. This is from a MV of 2975 which I think is VERY optimistic from a 22" barreled 257, but, OK, anyway.

My 25-06 with the same bullet (which I would not use because of the low BS and I'm not going to shoot elk) starts out at MV = 3150. At 500 yds. the drop is 27.5", the energy is 1065, and the velocity is 2000 FPS.

These numbers differences are not great and PROBABLY have little real world effect on performance MOST of the time, but what difference there is, is in the direction of the 25-06 and the only performance I am interested in is TERMINAL performance.

The differences translate to 15% more energy and 7% more velocity at the 500 Yd. range.

The difference in velocity & energy COULD / SHOULD mean more reliable bullet performance and this is MEANINGFUL.

At these reduced velocity numbers, I think that any amount of higher velocity, ESPECIALLY with a tough bullet like the A-Frame warrants having.

As I said, for long range shooting in this caliber, I prefer and bit more frangible boooolit, like the Partition or the Accubond. With the Accubond the statistics go up another notch on the performance ladder..........due to the higher BC and only slightly less mass. As the stats go up the difference between the calibers tend to grow a little more too.

But when all's said and done, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

Other wiidcats offer a little more velocity than the standard 25-06 and that's directionally a good thing. "Big Stick" on here, who seems pretty knowledgable, touts the 25-284 and the 25-06AI, both of which I have no experience with.

One thing I have noticed is that all .25's tend to kill somewhat faster than one would think.........that is, they are effective out of proportion to what they should be capable of. However, I will still draw the line for the upperlimit on game to mule deer.

Having said that, I still like bigger calibers better, mainly because of more insurance in velocity & energy at the same range...........at least it makes ME feel better.

Enjoy your Bob; like I said, I do like nostalgia and was not serious in my original comment in putting it down(grin). Everyone has their preferences and whatever makes you happy.............

MM

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. One could make the same case for the 250 Sav. vrs. the Roberts or the 25/06 vrs. the 257 Wby. All I'am really saying is that there is nothing majic about the 257 Rob. If you're trying to run with the larger 06 case then you'll be operating at higher pressure, say what you want but facts are facts.

One thing I find interesting is that JB says a bob in a short action produces the same as a bob in the longer action -- because short throat = less powder - same velovity. You say your Ruger has a long throat allowing you to use more powder for more velocity with less pressure. You can't have it both ways, which is it?

Pete_in_Idaho �

You are correct, there is nothing magic about the .257 Roberts. In fact in my Ruger the case is too short to take full advantage of the magazine length, something the .25-06 is much at. Nevertheless the short barrel makes it one sweet carry gun and it has become my favorite bolt gun.

I�m not trying to �run with the larger 06 case� with my .257 loads, but yes, I do load them to the high end. Frankly, in my Ruger there is no reason not to load the .257 Roberts to the same pressures as my 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag, although I don�t believe my .257 loads reach that level.

Actually what I am suggesting is that the long leade in the Ruger allows me to use more powder for more velocity with essentially the same pressure, not less pressure. A gentleman named Weatherby chambered his rifles with a lot of leade (freebore) for that very reason, although he bumped the pressures up a bit, too. In addition I seat the 120g A-Frames at 2.888�, or 0.108� over SAAMI COL maximum, which increases powder space. Even at that length the bullets are quite a ways from the lands.

As I have said, I don�t recommend my loads to others and certainly not in older rifles, but they appear completely safe in the Ruger and while they are probably at the 50,000 CUP level I doubt they reach the level of other cartridges chambered in the same action.

I load my son's Ruger M77 with 120 Nosler Partitions to an OAL of 2.97" and they're still .25" (yes, 1/4") off the lands.....by the way, the same OAL on my Remington 700 Classic and the bullet jump is only .02.

Both very accurate, but the Remington shoots less than 3/4".....I'm still tweeking that one. 48 grains H4831 SC

Regarding my Ruger .257 Roberts (and the .300WM for that matter), I like to joke that my loads couldn�t touch the lands with a stick. Perhaps when I get home tonight I�ll check and see what the distance to the lands is � don�t have that data with me.

As to accuracy, my Ruger also does very well. Last night I updated my chrono spreadsheet with target data from last weekend � 3 shots in 0.625� at 100. I noticed that my previous target data had been shot exactly one year earlier � with a group size of 0.65�. Gotta love it!

FWIW, your H4831SC charge is a half-grain higher than my 47.5g charge for the A-Frame. My 120 Partition load runs 2.896� COL and uses 46.0g H4831SC for 2904fps, but accuracy is not as good as with the A-Frames. All my .257 loads use WW +P brass and CCI 250 primers.

Remington brass and CCI large rifle primers here.....haven't changed in years.

The 48 grains of H4831SC show zero signs of pressure........could probably kick it some more but I can't think of a reason to do so.....if I wanted more firepower I'd buy another 30-06 and not the 270 since it's lacking on Texas whitetails as you've probably already heard. hehe

I can't see not loading a cartridge to it's potential,assuming the action is capable.

You boys slug it out and I'll drive the 23" 25-284 at 3750 with 75's and 3400 with 100's........................

I'm way above what all reloading mauals call safe in the Roberts.....if there is any gain that can be had it won't matter to the animals we hunt in East Texas. That includes pigs in excess of 300#'s......can't see the effort in getting anal over a few more feet per second......these are awesome rounds.

The 25/06 Springfield I had with a 22in. barrel started life as a 257 Rob. with a long throat. The barrel was a Shilen if I remember correctly. Again I must disagree with you. If a barrel has a longer throat it takes more powder to bring the pressure up and also velocity. You may or maynot be able to go beyond the velocity that is reached with a standard throat, just use more powder to get there. That's why the Springfield ended up a 25/06. I could never get over 2900fps. with a 117gr. bullet/H4831 or Win. 785 and keep the primer pockets tight for more then 2-3rds. Saw a friend set back the lugs on a nice G33/40 mauser in 257 Roberts trying to load it to more then what it was designed to do.