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Very interesting!!!!!!!!!!
Well we're Green and we're Gold, and we play better when it's cold. All us Cheese heads have our favorite superstar. We love Brett Favre.
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Its a real cutie, but Gosh; if they wanted to market a "new" rimless .308 Jr why didn't they resurrect the 300 Savage? I'm kinda disappointed in Marlin/Hornady. That could've been a real winner in marketing as well as performance.
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I really like the idea. Looks like 300 Sav ballistics in a suitable package for a tube magazine. If Marlin had chambered it for the 300 Sav, they would have been forced to use a spiral magazine.
"A free people (claim) their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate."
--Thomas Jefferson, Rights of British America, 1774
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I like it I regret the day I passed on the 307 and 356 Winchesters I hope they have a 358 Marlin express on the board
Psalm 16:1 Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
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How to you figure that? The problem with loading cartridges in a tube magazine is the pointy bullet. The new Hornady bullet takes care of that problem with its rubber tip. If you load those bullets in a .300 Savage case why would you need a sprial magazine? The bottom line is: "Ladies and Gentlemen. Kindly turn your attention to our new cartridge which duplicates the ballistics of the .300 Savage. As you can plainly see, after much thought and a prolonged engineering process we have reinvented the wheel."
Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.
I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind
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Way to go Marlin. I'm all for anything that can 1) Keep Marlin in business 2) Get more of us to ,at least, think about buying Lever guns & 3) give me any reason to buy another gun, esp. if it's a Marlin.
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It appears tp be a 307 Win version with the new style bullet. I was thinking about how this bullet would work in the 307. I never did get a 307 but I did pick up a 356 before they stopped making them. It should be a good one.
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Another new cartridge............yawn
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Not yet but that is a good idea! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...rue#Post1043358Yes---glad it has been announced! Very shortly you are going to read about some writers hunting with it earlier this fall. Normally I have no use for lever rifles but this I am making an exception!
Last edited by Boss Hoss; 11/09/06.
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I really like the idea. Looks like 300 Sav ballistics in a suitable package for a tube magazine. If Marlin had chambered it for the 300 Sav, they would have been forced to use a spiral magazine. ---------------------------------- Hopefully this round will work because from what I read lately, bullets fired from a .300 Savage bounce off today's deer and blackbear. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Expat
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
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It's being touted as a 300 yard cartridge. I can like that. Should work wonders on Caribou. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad to see Marlin being creative. I'm not going to disparage them for not making it a 300 savage without a little more information. I think sometimes the gunfolks have atendancy to eat their own.
NRA LIFE MEMBER
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ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS!
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What was wrong with the 7.63X39? We needed a better rimmed cartridge.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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whats it gonna do that a 30-30 loaded to the same pressures is not?
Half-minute accuracy, while pleasant to observe, is in no way superior to one-minute accuracy in any serious rifle.
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Bangflop! another skinning job due to .260 and proper shot placement.
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I like the looks of that one!
Anyone see news from Marlin on a rifle for it?
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They couldn't make it a 300 savage, because of the liability issues of the shooters who would use regular 300 savage ammo. So yes, they would have to use a spiral magazine.
I had a 307 win but once I bought my .308 blr that .307 just collected dust and became history.
The data says the 308 marlin express is a 47,000 psi cartridge using special powder and a special soft tipped bullet. So you have one load that you have to pay through the nose for and hope it shoots. At first I thought it sounded like a good idea, but now I'm having second thoughts. Plus they are not making any 20" barreled guns, just 22" and 24".
I love marlins but I'm just going to stick to my 35 rem + P for now.
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Come on, Guys. Do you really think anyone would line up to buy a MARLIN 300 SAV if Marlin had brought it back as such, or even the 307 with a new gummy bear tip????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Get real and move into the new century. It doesn't matter if the ballistics match the 300 Sav. The 300 Sav wasn't that far behind the 308 Win and as soon as us old pharts die off, so will the garbage about the "good old days" and those calibers that didn't stay within Darwinian parameters will die off also. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It's a new world and what is happening is called "MARKETING A PRODUCT". I for one think it's great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If I didn't already have a lever gun in 300 Sav I would be first in line for the "NEW 300 SAV", and hoping Marlin will come out with a "NEW 358 WIN" or a "NEW 375-08", BUT, on the same 308 MARLIN case. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> If you don't think 'MARKETING" has you by the short and curlys, why all the huffing and puffing? Stick with the OLD "tried and true", shut your eyes and be happy. The oldies still work. Let the newbies have their place in the sun, yours is over, realize it. Things change, life goes on. Hunting as our grandfathers new it, our fathers knew it and you, if you were lucky knew it, is so far gone I can hardly remember what it was like myself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Be glad some gun maker is trying to progress and not just wait until the dirt is tossed on their graves. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Enjoy
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Not long ago I rechambered a 336 30-30 for 308 Win. It will shoot 308 that is not over 2.56"COL or 307. Single loaded milsurp ammo shoots 2MOA.
I'm in the process of rechambering a 35 Rem for 356 Win.
Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing
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Its a real cutie, but Gosh; if they wanted to market a "new" rimless .308 Jr why didn't they resurrect the 300 Savage? I'm kinda disappointed in Marlin/Hornady. That could've been a real winner in marketing as well as performance. I suspect it is because the Savage is loaded with pointed bullets - not a good thing in a Marlin's tubular magazine.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 11/12/06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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You hit the nail on the head ---- some folks are rather ignorant of the use of pointed bullets in tubular magazines!!!! Talk about a lawsuit!!!!!
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Ho Hum. But I do like the Marlins, especially the older ones in .35. Plateau Hunter
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Ho Hum. But I do like the Marlins, especially the older ones in .35. Plateau Hunter Now thats an idea,when they make the 308 Marlin Express in a rifle without the extra stupid safety I will buy one,or maybe not. I do own 3 Savage 99s <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by 6mm250; 11/14/06.
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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whats it gonna do that a 30-30 loaded to the same pressures is not? Be availalble in a factory load. Can't load a "hot 30-30 cuz someone will load it in a modle 94 and blow it up. BMT
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Anyone know what it is based on, or is it a new case?
Ted
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Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Kahuna
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You hit the nail on the head ---- some folks are rather ignorant of the use of pointed bullets in tubular magazines!!!! Talk about a lawsuit!!!!! so what happens the first time some yahoo reloads the empties with a hard point .308 spitzer? whoaaaaa.
Sam......
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You hit the nail on the head ---- some folks are rather ignorant of the use of pointed bullets in tubular magazines!!!! Talk about a lawsuit!!!!! so what happens the first time some yahoo reloads the empties with a hard point .308 spitzer? whoaaaaa. About the same thing that happens when they reload the .30-30 or a .356 with a spitzer.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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The latest Shooting Times (January 2007) has case dimensions.
.500" rim, .4703" case head.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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6mm250,
I like that "extra stupid safety". I bought a 336 for my grandson last year, and think it is a worthwhile safety feature. The "safe" position on a lever gun is simply with the trigger at half cock. The only time the cross bolt safety is engaged is when loading or unloading. It is always in the "fire" position when hunting. If you've ever heard a gunshot about 30 minutes before it's light enough to shoot, it's probably someone loading a 30-30 without the cross bolt safety, and somehow the hammer went from fully cocked, which happens automatically when working the lever action, to fully down on a loaded chamber.
Familiarity with one's own firearm is assumed. If a lever gun is equipped with a cross bolt safety, it's not difficult to learn to engage it only for loading and unloading, and to learn to use only the half cock safety for hunting.
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The second coming of the 307 Win.....
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sst,I guess i'm just too old & don't like change. Admittedly it takes a bit of manipulation and practice but a Marlin (and I assume a Winchester) can be unloaded without cycleing the rounds through the barrel.
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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Campfire Kahuna
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The second coming of the 307 Win..... Second coming of the .300 Savage...
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The .307 / .356 died a quick, quiet death because they attempted to solve a problem that didn't exist and make traditional lever guns into something they were never meant to be. The new .308 Marlin will likely suffer the same fate.
Traditional rounds such as the .30-30 and .35 Rem are honest 200 yard rifles in the right hands and that's about the limit of open sights anyway.
The "new and improved" rounds offer little in the way of range increase (maybe 300 yards...and then only if scoped). When scoped a traditional lever gun loses it's main attribute.......balance and speed of use. The "problem" these rounds solve doesn't exist. If a 300 yard rifle is needed......you'd be much better served with a good bolt action. Or even better if a truely beautiful and balanced lever gun is wanted......a Savage 99.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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well i'm with the crowd of just rebring out the 300 savage
DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
I LOVE MY COUNTRY IT'S THE GOV'T I FEAR
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SST.....to each his own I guess. If you like the ugly safety on newer Marlins.....I'm sure you also love the transfer bar on New Model Ruger Blackhawks too. I personally can't stand either. If God had wanted them that way he would have sent a message to the original designers.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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TexasRick,
"If God had wanted them that way he would have sent a message to the original designers."
That was good. I liked that. I actually don't like the looks of the cross bolt safeties, and can see how someone might overlook the position of that cross bolt at an inopportune time. For my grandson's first rifle, though, I thought it was an excellent idea. I've loaded a lot of 30-30s over the last 40 some years of hunting, for myself and others. Letting the hammer back down to half cock after loading in the dark can sometimes be tricky when it's cold and you're wearing gloves, and the scope is in the way. It's always an accident, but a lot of lever guns go off that way every deer season.
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well i'm with the crowd of just rebring out the 300 savage The problem is the existing Savage loads won't work in a rifle with a tubular magazine. Unless you're looking to lose body parts...
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Well, I can't find a 300 Savage or .307 Win in a Marlin, so I'm very much looking forward to the new .308!
I've tried to "like" a Savage 99, but I can't. Every one that I pick up feels like a 2X4 to me.
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I guess its up me to row against the tide-this is similar to the ol Savage an Winchester numbers, but its a new animal, folks.
There will always be those whose loyalty to the ol cartridges is unwaverin. Myself, I'm quite partial to the .307, an I've seen the .300 Savage take down a truly magnificent Bull, but the truth of it all is that both of these cartridges come with lots of strings, an very little in the way of bonus for either Marlin or Hornady.
Whether you like it or not what it really does is maximize the 336-gets the most possible out of the gun/30cal. format.
Marlin an Hornady are gonna ruffle some feathers, theyre changin the whole concept of the levergun, but personally, I thin its exciting to see these companies working the tried an true platform into the 21st/C.
Good luck n good shootin
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I have no problem with what Marlin & Hornady are doing to maximize the 336. The problem I have is with the BS they are spewing about it never being done before. Savage 99s have been shooting pointed bullets for nearly 100 years, and I mean REAL pointed bullets not some rubber titted fake point. Savage changed the whole concept of the levergun in 1895 not Marlin in 2006. I will continue to enjoy my pre-stupid safety Marlins shooting blunt nosed bullets at short range , but when I need more range capability I will reach for one of my 99s , yet farther & one of my boltguns gets the nod. Mike BTW I just so happen to have a Savage 99 chambered in the REAL 308 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by 6mm250; 12/12/06.
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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6mm you said it best as far as i'm concerned
DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR
I LOVE MY COUNTRY IT'S THE GOV'T I FEAR
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I own Savage 99 and Marlin 336/1895 rifles. They are my two favorite rifle models. With that being said, the new Hornady ammo does offer real advantages over traditional flat/round tipped bullets in my Marlins. I have an 1895SS 45/70, 336RC 35 Rem and 336A 30-30 all scoped and sighted in with the Leverevolution ammo. All three are sub 1.5 moa rifles now, and all are at least 200 yd rifles. This stuff shoots more accurately, and with a better trajectory than any factory ammo I have ever tried.
The 24" barrel Marlin 30-30 now has almost the same trajectory as my 24" barrel 99EG 300 Savage, and is more accurate. The 35 and 45/70 cartridges fill a niche that none of my Savages do with super accurate, big bore slugs.
It is true that Marlin and Hornady have not come up with a better moutrap than the Savage 99, but they have evened the playing field considerably. I am excited about the 308 Express and will most likely buy one in each configuration.
Always remember that you are unique, just like everyone else.
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I have no problem with what Marlin & Hornady are doing to maximize the 336. The problem I have is with the BS they are spewing about it never being done before. Savage 99s have been shooting pointed bullets for nearly 100 years, and I mean REAL pointed bullets not some rubber titted fake point. Savage changed the whole concept of the levergun in 1895 not Marlin in 2006. I will continue to enjoy my pre-stupid safety Marlins shooting blunt nosed bullets at short range , but when I need more range capability I will reach for one of my 99s , yet farther & one of my boltguns gets the nod. Mike BTW I just so happen to have a Savage 99 chambered in the REAL 308 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> While you may see the safeties as "stupid", I do not. It's a matter of opinion, not verifiable fact. I leave mine off in the field but use it when loading/unloading. Two of my levers have safeties, two do not. A safety won't deter me from buying another Marlin, and sales of Marlin levers indicate others are not deterred either. As to the .308 win or .300 Savage, neither can be used safely in a Marlin or Winchester lever. Winchester introduced the .307 Win back in the 80's but rifles in good condition are fairly scarce and often command a premium over other calibers. Marlin didn't ship any, which makes them even harder to get. The .308 Marlin comes in a rifle redesigned for higher pressures than a standard 336 (v-threads instead of square for the barrel/receiver) and provides .307 velocities at lower pressures. The Hornady LeverEvolution ammunition with the flexible-tip bullets provides bulletes with better Ballistic Coefficients that are still safe in tubular magazines - a first as far as I know. (The French Lebel excepted, as there were some problems with mag-tube explosions.) For myself, I plan to handload for the .308 Marlin and won't use the flex-tip bullets even if they become available. Since a Marlin in .307 was what I wanted when I purchased my first Marlin in .375 Win, I applaud what Marlin and Hornady are doing.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 12/12/06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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This all sounds all well and good and like a few I like Marlins efforts if for nothing else bringing something to the table that will do what a .308 does in their rifles. But as with everything else new (especially the short magnums) this may live very short in the limelight!!!
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Well, I can't find a 300 Savage or .307 Win in a Marlin, so I'm very much looking forward to the new .308!
I've tried to "like" a Savage 99, but I can't. Every one that I pick up feels like a 2X4 to me. ----------------------- BLASPHEMY!
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
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I know, I know, and I'm ashamed of it too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I pick up every 99 I can, just waiting to find the right one, but it just hasn't happened yet. Now, if one came along in .358, I'd learn to live with it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Also wanted to say, I like the cross bolt safety. Especially now that my 7 yr old boy is starting to shoot with me. The only lever I have is a Marlin 1894 in .22 mag, and he's really starting to like it!
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I realize that a number of folks still idolize the Savage 99. Even the mo99fan has gotta admit one thing-theyre not makin em, an they haven't made em-for some time. According to what I heard, theyre not thinkin of goin back to makin em, either.
To state the obvious, Marlin is offerin brand spankin new.
Once again, you don havto like the flex tip bullet, but it is a unique phenomenon in todays world.
Truth is, I personally am left cold by just about every bolt action out there, but if you want to talk about cuttin edge ballistics, thats your real platform.
Leverguns are pretty much a unique, American phenomenon, as a levergunner I can have loyalty to the tried an true, the traditional, an the new.
Nobody is forcing anyone to add the new Marlin to their battery, but since Browning is sitting on Winchester, all we really have r Marlin & Miroku. If you prefer a levergun thats both traditional an long range capable Miroku has some of its 1895/06s still at various distributors.
I applaud Marlin for taking the plunge, it was courageous, especially if the response here is any measure of their market.
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To me, a 99 feels absolutely great in my hands!!!
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From what I am hearing from my industry friends this will be the biggest thing since �sliced bread� everything regarding production specifications are being finalized(cut barrels evenbut not single point)! Huge pre orders for both the ammo and the rifles�lot of folks on this board are going to look pretty foolish this time next year! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Boss Hoss; 12/13/06.
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ooooooooooooooooooohhh that is gonna leave a mark!!!!!!
Well we're Green and we're Gold, and we play better when it's cold. All us Cheese heads have our favorite superstar. We love Brett Favre.
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I really like the idea. Looks like 300 Sav ballistics in a suitable package for a tube magazine. If Marlin had chambered it for the 300 Sav, they would have been forced to use a spiral magazine. Exactly! Some genious would have tried to shoot regular 300 Savage shells through the tubular tube and not the lever evolution tbe safe ammo! Although I would love a spiral mag so I can reload it with ANY pointed bullet of my choice!
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sst,I guess i'm just too old & don't like change. Admittedly it takes a bit of manipulation and practice but a Marlin (and I assume a Winchester) can be unloaded without cycleing the rounds through the barrel. True, but it is impossible to chamber a round without bringing the rifle to full ready (hammer back), even if you are not ready to shoot. I was at the range one day and my thumb slipped while dropping the hammer to half-cock on a loaded chamber. My finger must have been on the trigger as the rifle went Kaboom sending a cartridge downrange. OK, I screwed up. A safety would have prevented the Kaboom, however.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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The Marlin website now has them listed. Available 2nd qtr 2007..I really do wish they had thought of a 7mm Marlin Express. 120-140 gr bullet at 2800+..Now that would be interesting.
Last edited by ChipM; 12/16/06.
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I agree with Mak and Coyote Hunter on this.
Some of you are trying to make this into something it was never intended to be. We are talking about a light, fast handling, medium range rifle here, not a long range bolt action. Get real, they are made for different purposes.
Think about it, you cannot use hard pointed bullets in a tube magazine, safely.
I forgot, tell me again, what are the advantages of a pointed bullet inside 200 yards?
Jim
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Some of you are trying to make this into something it was never intended to be. We are talking about a light, fast handling, medium range rifle here, not a long range bolt action. Jim
i thought a 30-30 was that?
Half-minute accuracy, while pleasant to observe, is in no way superior to one-minute accuracy in any serious rifle.
Col. (RET.) Jeff Cooper
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[quote]
Some of you are trying to make this into something it was never intended to be. We are talking about a light, fast handling, medium range rifle here, not a long range bolt action. Jim Yes that would be Marlin , trying to make their levergun into something it was never intended to be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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Yes that would be Marlin , trying to make their levergun into something it was never intended to be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Horrors! To think that a manufacturer might try to address the needs and/or wants of the market! You�ve already admitted you don�t like change, but you haven�t mentioned what type of wood you use in your spears.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Just about any kind of wood that I can cut with my stone ax.
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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OK, Here's a list of "well reasoned" arguments as to why the .308 Marlin is a waste of time. All of these reasons were brought forth here or on another forum. They are, of course, paraphrased.
Now instead of long-winded whining, naysayers can just list the numbers identifying the reasons they don't like the .308 Marlin.
1. Should have used a .7mm-Waters.
2. Should have used a .7mmSTE.
3. Should have used a 7.62x39.
4. Should have used a .30-30AI.
5. Should have used a .300 Savage.
6. Should have used a .307 Win.
7. Should have used a.33 Win.
8. Should have used a.348 Win.
9. Should have used a JDJ cartridge.
10. Should have done a .50 Alaskan.
11. Should have used a 20� barrel.
12. Should have had a spiral magazine.
13. Should have used a blued, octagonal 24� barrel.
14. Forget the whole thing, it's D.O.A.
15. Forget the whole thing, I can't operate the lever.
16. Forget the whole thing, it's not readily available.
17. Forget the whole thing, its got that stupid safety.
18. Forget the whole thing, ammo will cost $40 a box.
19. Forget the whole thing, too much recoil and noise.
20. Forget the whole thing, I'd rather it was a .45-70 pump.
21. Forget the whole thing, I already have long range rifles.
22. Forget the whole thing, "i'm just too old & don't like change."
23. Forget the whole thing, it solves a problem that doesn't exist.
24. Forget the whole thing, just get a bolt gun in .308 Win or .30-06.
25. Forget the whole thing, just get a bolt gun for your sniping needs.
26. Forget the whole thing, if I want long range I�ll get a Sharps or Ballard.
27. Forget the whole thing, someone will load it with regular spitzer bullets.
28. Forget the whole thing, the .308 Marlin has not passed the test of time.
29. Forget the whole thing, leverguns weren't intended to have such capabilities.
30. Forget the whole thing, it won't do anything a .30-30 at the same pressures won't do.
31. Forget the whole thing, if you buy one you are doomed to buying factory ammo forever.
32. Forget the whole thing, "because I am too old to realize a gain in performance and value of this new caliber."
33. Forget the whole thing, just get a Winnie in .307 or a Savage 99 or a Browning BLR or a Winnie/Browning 1895.
34. Forget the whole thing, new Marlin rifles have a "cheapness" about them that precludes any interest in them as a whole.
35. Forget the whole thing, the .308 Marlin Express "would NOT make a good Black Bear caliber. Unless you are shooting Cubs."
36. It must be a lie, you can't get .307 velocities from a smaller case withhout pressures higher than a .307.
37. Should have just manufactured the Savage 99 under license.
38. Why reinvent the wheel (.307 and Savage .300)?
39. The ammo will cost too much.
40. You can�t match factory ballistics.
41. You can�t even match factory muzzle velocity.
42. You can't get the brass.
43. You can�t get the bullets.
44. You can't get bullets in the same weight.
45. You can't get the powder.
46. You can't get the dies.
47. The powders aren�t available so its really just a .30-30 XLR.
48. Don�t like the way the XLR looks.
49. Don't like Marlins, why should I like this one?
50. The .30-30 can kill at 200 yards and beyond � what�s the point?
51. The XLR will cost too much.
52. 2� groups at 200 yards is not match-grade ammo.
53. Its just a scam by greedy companies to get your money.
54. Marlin should have spent their �finite resources� to improve the accuracy of ALL their rifles.
55. Marlin should have spent their �finite resources� to introduce novel/better open sights.
56. Marlin should have spent their �finite resources� to make periodic runs of guns chambered for obsolete cartridges.
57. Marlin should have spent their �finite resources� to introduce a �tactical� 1894.
58. Marlin should have spent their �finite resources� to introduce a pump-action .357/.44/.45.
59. Sharp-pointed bullets don�t offer anything over RN or FN bullets, so what�s the point.
60. Old timers figured if they could hit a piece of typing paper they were sighted in, why does Marlin need to be different?
61. Most game is taken at 100-150 yards tops, why do we need something that reaches further?
62. The .30-30 has taken Africa�s Big Five, why do we need anything else?
63. You don�t need the extra energy the .308 Marlin provides as the .30-30 can kill a 200-pound deer at 230 yards.
64. You don�t need the extra trajectory the .308 Marlin provides as the .30-30 can kill a 200-pound deer at 230 yards.
65. The extra range of the .308 Marlin will just encourage people to take shots at ranges they shouldn�t attempt.
66. I won�t buy a .308 Marlin because Marlin didn�t answer a letter I wrote them.
67. The trend toward modernizing traditional designs is a waste of time � it can�t be done.
68. You can�t use the .308 Marlin�s extra range without a scope, and scoping a levergun is just wrong.
69. I won�t buy a .308 Marlin because Marlin won�t build rifles chambered for the obsolete cartridges I want � and I know two other guys that want them, too!
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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You know I was just thinking, If we all had the same opinion, there would probably be only one gun manufacturer to buy from. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Now I'm going to tell you all a thing or two and straighten you out!!!
I love the way a 99 feels in my hands and if you had grown up hunting with one in the snow, you would too. Of course, I'm biased.
I own two older seventies Marlins, both in 30-30 without crossbolt safeties. I personally like the way the guns look without them, but admit the safety is not a bad idea. Because I personally witnessed an idiot who had a hammer slip. I will not go as far as admit I'm that idiot.
Finally, I'm not going to buy the new 308 Marlin, cause I own fifteen deer rifles already that work well for me. However, if I was in the market for a new lever action rifle I think this one would be the best thing going. This new ammo , like it or not, is going to change the way the lever action Marlin is looked at. I know I'm going to buy a few boxes of the new Hornady 30-30 ammo to use in my older Marlins. I think it will breath new life into them for me.
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Today I had the opportunity to handle a .30-30 XLR side-by-side with a 1895GS, both stainless.
Of the two, I have to say I thought the .30-30 XLR handled better. In spite of the fact that Marlin says they weigh the same, the .45-70 seemed to be barrel heavy.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Coyote Hunter, revise that list a little and lets put it up as a stickie at the beginning of the forum for reference material.
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Coyote Hunter, revise that list a little and lets put it up as a stickie at the beginning of the forum for reference material. Revise it how?
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I not much of a lever action guy, but I am going to buy one. I think the cartridge/rifle combo has some real merit.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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My biggest question is: When the ammo is discontinued, what case can you use to make brass?? 7.62x54R?
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My biggest question is: When the ammo is discontinued, what case can you use to make brass?? 7.62x54R? You will either use the .307 Winchester or form the case from the .444 Marlin. Either way it is a simple matter.
Slim
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Whoa! Putting a 300 yard cartridge into a 336 doesn't mean you have a 300 yard game rifle. My 336SS will shoot MOA with good handloads, but it also changes POI based on how it is rested and how many rounds are in the magazine. Not what I consider good traits in a long range game gun.
"Hunting in the wilderness is of all pastimes the most attractive" Teddy Roosevelt 1893
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well i'm with the crowd of just rebring out the 300 savage Why when got the 308 win <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />? BTW what happens if the only available pointed load for the 308 marlin does not shoot for you? HMMM..back to round and flat slugs huh? Forget that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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I really wish Marlin would have come out wit a nice rimmed .338 or .35 caliber round to replace the .35 Remington.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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62. The .30-30 has taken Africa�s Big Five, why do we need anything else? WTF?
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POP -
I didn't make them up, I just reported them! I have no idea if the statement is true or not.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Well, the .44 Magnum has taken the big 5, so I don't see why the .30-30 couldn't. It'considerably more powerful.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Well, the .44 Magnum has taken the big 5, so I don't see why the .30-30 couldn't. It'considerably more powerful. I would not say the 30-30 is considerably more powerful than the 44mag at all. If you go by the Taylor Knockout Value system, a 240gr bullet at 1350fps out of a 44mag has about 25% more TKO value than a 170gr 30-30 bullet at 2100fps. A 300gr 44mag bullet widens the gap considerably.............2MG
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Well, the .44 Magnum has taken the big 5, so I don't see why the .30-30 couldn't. It'considerably more powerful. This coming from a guy that thinks anything sub-.308 is inadequate for deer! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
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He needs enlightening....................
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POP -
I didn't make them up, I just reported them! I have no idea if the statement is true or not. Oh believe me, this was not a response to you. Just surprised as heck if in fact it is true! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
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The .44 Magnum is far superior to any sub-.308, as is the .30-30. There's no think about it. The .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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The .44 Magnum is far superior to any sub-.308, as is the .30-30. There's no think about it. The .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum. You have MUCH to learn from what you've showed me so far.......................2MG
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It's called balistics. You should study them sometime. Facts speak loud enough.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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You truly haven't a clue...................
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I think 44 years of experience gives me a clue. I've seen a lot of failures on the range (and in the woods) and plenty of success too. Just do a little reading, and you can learn stuff like a big boy. There is no game animal that han't been taken with the .44 Magnum. Any balistic table shows the .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum. If taking a trip to Africa or Alaska, I'd much rather have a .44 magnum carbine than any sub .308 caliber rifle. Pea shooters just don't hack the mission.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Keep it up, seems wearing your ignorance on your sleeve is a god-given talent for you................You givin' me a lesson on ballistics is laughable at best............still laffin'
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The .44 Magnum is far superior to any sub-.308, as is the .30-30. There's no think about it. The .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum.
OK, a good 170g .30-30 load will deliver around 1400fpe at the 100 yard line (WW 170g Silvertip). A good .44 Mag load from a carbine will deliver around 1200fpe. So in your mind load which delivers an additional 200fpe is "much more powerful". Hold that thought... ...There is no game animal that han't been taken with the .44 Magnum. Swampman - There has been a lot more African big game, including elephants, taken with a 7mm than with a .30-30. One hunter did it regularly with a 7x57 as I recall, and also did it with a .22 - twice. I don't think that makes the .22 a recommended caliber for elehant, though. Nor would a .30-30 or .44 Mag be my first choice... Any balistic table shows the .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum. If taking a trip to Africa or Alaska, I'd much rather have a .44 magnum carbine than any sub .308 caliber rifle. Pea shooters just don't hack the mission. Ok, we're back to the additional 200fpe difference as being "much more powerful". The Federal 7mm Rem Mag 175g Trophy Bonded delivers 2775fpe at 100 yards, or more than double what the .44 Mag provides and very nearly double what the .30-30 can provide. If an extra 200fpe or about 16% equates to "much more powerful" with a .308" bullet, what does an extra 1575fpe or 131% equate to in a .284" bullet? I think I'll take my ballistic lessons form someone else...
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/19/07.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Merely looking at a ballistics table and citing FPE is a feeble attempt at best for determining power....................
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I think 44 years of experience gives me a clue. I've seen a lot of failures on the range (and in the woods) and plenty of success too. Just do a little reading, and you can learn stuff like a big boy. There is no game animal that han't been taken with the .44 Magnum. Any balistic table shows the .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum. If taking a trip to Africa or Alaska, I'd much rather have a .44 magnum carbine than any sub .308 caliber rifle. Pea shooters just don't hack the mission. OMG ... I sooooooo totally agree with you ... No way I'd want something like a .257wby spewing 100g TSX's at warp nine to try and take game in Africa, much less anywhere else ... I'd MUCH rather have a .30-30 !!! Dude ... you win the idiot of the year award ... by leaps and bounds ...
-WGM-
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I think 44 years of experience gives me a clue. I've seen a lot of failures on the range (and in the woods) and plenty of success too. Just do a little reading, and you can learn stuff like a big boy. There is no game animal that han't been taken with the .44 Magnum. Any balistic table shows the .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum. If taking a trip to Africa or Alaska, I'd much rather have a .44 magnum carbine than any sub .308 caliber rifle. Pea shooters just don't hack the mission. OMG ... I sooooooo totally agree with you ... No way I'd want something like a .257wby spewing 100g TSX's at warp nine to try and take game in Africa, much less anywhere else ... I'd MUCH rather have a .30-30 !!! Dude ... you win the idiot of the year award ... by leaps and bounds ... And that is REALLY sayin' somethin'................ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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"I'd MUCH rather have a .30-30 !!!" or a .44 Magnum.
Me too!
I have no use for anything below the 30 caliber mark for deer sized game. The ".257 anything" isn't something I'd ever shoot or use. The 243 Winchester is nice for larger varmits. Those in between it and the .30 caliber deer cartridges are just not useful enough. They were created to sell rifles to those not smart enough to realize they already had the best....the .30-06. You can carry on all you like. Nothing can change that fact.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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You can't fix stupid...............
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Dude ... you win the idiot of the year award ... by leaps and bounds ... ... and we're only @ January 19th! It will take some doing to pass this during 2007! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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Okay, an honest question -
Do you guys like to insult each other over stupid sh*t because you just like a good discussion and this is the written form of "playing rough", i.e. all in good fun, or do you really and truly get this riled up over inconsequential things?
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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His theory on the 7mm-08 not killin' deer comes pretty close............So right now it's Swampman vs. Swampman for the Idiot Award...............He'll have his picture pasted right next to Cohiba's, last year's runaway winner..........
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Okay, an honest question -
Do you guys like to insult each other over stupid sh*t because you just like a good discussion and this is the written form of "playing rough", i.e. all in good fun, or do you really and truly get this riled up over inconsequential things? Jim ... I don't like to insult anyone ... but sometimes (unfortunately) I feel like I need to do it to make my point. I also do not find it "inconsequential" that we have a member here telling others that any caliber that is sub .308" is "useless" for taking game larger than varmints ... In fact, I find it to be VERY bad advice, and completely untrue ...
-WGM-
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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+1 to everything WGM just said. I'm just havin' fun and could really care less what this clown thinks. If you are gonna start throwin' around opinions about cartridges as if they were FACTS, you should at least have some sort of an educated opinion. Apparently, 44yrs is not long enough for some to form one of those.......If he actually would open his eyes, he'd learn a thing or two, and then, in hindsight, realize how foolish his remarks truly were...........
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I should clarify that if Swampman1 would just say that he has had poor luck/experience with sub .30cal selections on big game, and that it's his opinion that one should choose a .30cal or larger chambering for big game, I'd have no problem with it ...
but when he insists that it is fact that any chambering with a .30cal or larger bore size is superior to smaller calibers in both "killing ability" and ballistics is just plum crazy ... and in my opinion (and obviously in other's opnions as well) this is terrible advice and needs to be addressed so that those who are not as experienced don't take such terrible advice with them when they go to make a decision ...
-WGM-
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Considering I have more one-shot kills on deer with the 7-08 with more different bullet types/weights than I can truly remember, it's really hard to take his BS as fact.............I won't even get into the other "sub-par" sub-30's..........Opinions are welcome, but bad advice must be regulated..........
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I haven't insulted anyone. I simply stated the facts.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Wasn't referring to any one in particular, more of a group question as most of the posts on this page seemed to have a note of vehemence to them. Hmm, re: the under-308 caliber thing - it would be real interesting around here if Elmer were alive and posting... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Talk to him long enough and his "facts" will piss you off too...........
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Elmer was one of the few gun writer who actually knew what he was talking about. He wasn't on somebody's payroll trying to sell rifles. John Taffin, and Jeff Cooper are the other 2 knowledgable gun writers I can think of.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Tracker
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I have no use for anything below the 30 caliber mark for deer sized game.
Sir: This is not an attempt to belittle you. I am just very curious about one thing. How can you stand by the aforementioned statement when your statement includes such superstars like the 270 Win/WSM/WBY or 7mm Rem mag/STW/RUM and a plethora of others? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Not knowing anything of how "power" is calculated makes it very easy, I'm sure..............SM--If you believe the words of Taffin' or Keith, I'm quite sure they'd tell you your little "44mag vs 30-30 theory" is way wrong..........just like Jim tried to tell you.........
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Campfire Kahuna
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The .44 Magnum is far superior to any sub-.308, as is the .30-30. There's no think about it. The .30-30 is much more powerful than the .44 Magnum. BS. The .44 magnum lacks one helluva lot against rounds like the 7RM or 7STW, and the .30-30 is not more powerful than the .44 across the board. Try again...
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Campfire Kahuna
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I have no use for anything below the 30 caliber mark for deer sized game.
Sir: This is not an attempt to belittle you. I am just very curious about one thing. How can you stand by the aforementioned statement when your statement includes such superstars like the 270 Win/WSM/WBY or 7mm Rem mag/STW/RUM and a plethora of others? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> 'Cause he's never used them, nor ever seen them used. BTW - if you're gonna banty around about ballistics, you really should take a look across the board. For example: you unequivocally state that the .30-30 is far superior to the .44 magnum based upon velocity and energy; but discount anything under .30 caliber as "too small" when the velocity and energy of most 7mms and certainly of the faster 6.5s, .25s, and .27s exceed the .30-30 by leaps and bounds. Somehow, that double standard don't wash. And, as far as ballistics are concerned, you are overlooking things like SD, like any of the equations that take diameter into consideration, and the old standard of momentum. On any of those standards, you see much different results between any two cartridges. That said, your biases and your prejudices are apparent; your handle on actual in-field performance of rounds is also apparent (absent). If you're going to make blanket statements, they'd better be spot on, or you'll look like (and likely be called) a fool. In these cases, your blanket statements are very far wrong; yet you just don't get it, won't get it, and just refuse to try to learn. Ignorance can be corrected, but ignorance and stubborness lead to stupidity. I doubt that you are stupid, so don't act like it. You, frankly, have no experience with anything other than ONE deer and a 7-08 as far as sub-.30 caliber rounds; that much you've admitted before. And, a sample of one is scientifically invalid; rendering you essentially incapable of stating a valid fact or theory. You may have your opinions, but those opinions don't hold up to facts. Your choices are to admit this (to yourself, more than anyone else) and learn, or stubbornly remain ignorant. Your choice.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Example:
.30-30 factory load of 170 gr. FNSP at 2300 fps gives about 2000 ft./lbs.; a 150 at 2500 gives almost 2100 ft./lbs.
A .44 magnum load from an equal 20" carbine barrel gives about 1900 fps with a 300 gr. FN, for about 2400 ft./lbs.
That .44 load delivers a bullet of about twice the weight, more than 40% greater diameter, and over 20% more energy.
Now, which one is those two is the more powerful?
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No one said anything about a 20" carbine barrel. The discussion was about taking the big 5 with a .44 Magnum handgun. The .30-30 is much more powerful hence a .30-30 could take the big 5 with the correct bullet. The 7.62X39 has take them all many times over. It's about the same as a .30-30. I'm not concerned about "power calculation" which is a load of carp. Ft lbs of energy is what we are talking about. Those needle guns are ok for vearmits but the stink on game animals.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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The 44 mag in a handgun is more powerful with a 240gr load at 1350 than the 30-30 is with a 170gr load at 2100. I told you this already. A 300gr 44mag handgun load kicks the 30-30's ass all over the map........I hate to tell you, but your heroes, E.Keith and Col. Cooper were both firm believers in the TKO theory, with good reason. It was developed by PH's in Africa with much on-game experience..............Believe what you want, even though many on this board that truly KNOW have tried to show you the error of your ways.....Good luck VA..............
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The "theory of relative stopping power" is another good one, but too advanced for you at these early stages of enlightening..................
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Merely looking at a ballistics table and citing FPE is a feeble attempt at best for determining power.................... Actually, the scientific definition of "power" is energy transferred per unit of time. Looking at a balistics table provides some valuable clues, such as how much energy is available to be transferred. It is a fact a bullet cannot transfer more energy than it has. Granted, available energy does not tell the whole story. It just provides a starting point.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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It don't mean dick without factoring in diameter and weight with it................Depends purely on what ratios of each.......
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Inventing some whacky formula to prove a preconceived notion has been tried for years. The .44 Magnun pistol is not more powerful than a .30-30 carbine.....period. I've been shooting and hunting with both for many years.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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As have other folks... who also happen to hunt with, say, the 7mm Rem. Magnum. Which, I can assure you, is one helluva lot more powerful than the .30-30. Same thing for the .270. Or .264 Winchester Magnum. Or .257 Wby. All sub-.30 caliber rounds that make .30-30 performance look VERY pedestrian.
Of course, those facts show up in the same ft./lbs. of energy tables that you adhere to for your .30-30 vs. .44 magnum argument but refuse to look at for sub-.30s; and I can assure you that the results are even more striking in the field.
You will believe what you want, even if you're wrong, and it seems you will refuse to learn. Sad...
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I could cite about 10,000 examples of why this guy is wrong, but I'm done wastin' time on him............We all know the 7-08 is more powerful than the 30-30, even by the standards he goes by and blah, blah, blah.........Let him remain wallowin' around in the the ignorance pool. ------2MG
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It don't mean dick without factoring in diameter and weight with it................Depends purely on what ratios of each....... 1. Power is power regardless of diameter or weight. 2. A bullet cannot transfer more energy than it starts with. But as I said,initial energy is just a starting point. Bullets that fail to exit have transferred all their energy that results from velocity. Bullets that exit do not transfer all their energy. Fat bullets, whether they exit or not, may transfer a higher percentage of their energy and transfer more energy in total than skinny bullets that have more energy but exit. So the mechanics of the energy transfer come into play as well. But I'll tell you what - I can't think of anything I'd shoot with a .44 Mag that I wouldn't shoot with a 7mm Rem Mag and a 175g Trophy Bonded, North Fork or A-Frame. All of these bullets will expand to double their starting diameter or better and provide reliable transfer of a high percentage of their energy. As to the .44 Mag versus .30-30, I consider them about the same out to about 100 yards. If shooting game at 200 yards is a possibility, I'll reach for the .30-30 every time.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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We're talking KILlING power here. FPE ain't no good at measurin' it unless the 2 bullets are the same size and weight, period. If you had a 480 Ruger with 1600+fpe and a 30-30 with 1600+fpe, which one do you think would have more killing power? And why?.........Pretend every bullet in the discussion is a solid, same/same.................
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The old "power is power regardless of diameter and weight theory" don't look so good now, does it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> According to you, both would kill the same. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I beg to differ...............
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Campfire Kahuna
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Inventing some whacky formula to prove a preconceived notion has been tried for years. You mean like Taylor and Keith did? Oh, wait, you were using them to support YOUR arguments, weren't you?
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The TKO theory was developed because guys in the know saw the amount of damage done by bigger bullets with less FPE on paper. There is a reason why big-bore handguns seem to kill all out of proportion to their FPE figures, it's called diameter and weight, period.................
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The .30-30 and the .44 Magnum are excellent cartridges. The sub-.308s just don't amount to much period. I'm quite familiar with all these theories. While nice on paper, they just don't mean much in the field.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Some know that... some don't...
Just like the fact that very high velocity rounds (like the .257Roy) kill all out of proportion to their diameter, and other rounds with very high SD bullets at proper velocities (such as the 6.5x55 Swede and 156 gr. RNs) kill out of proportion to their paper ballistics, too.
Some know, some learn, some don't, some won't.
I used to didn't know, I'm still learnin', and I will.
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The .30-30 and the .44 Magnum are excellent cartridges. The sub-.308s just don't amount to much period. I'm quite familiar with all these theories. While nice on paper, they just don't mean much in the field. These theories were developed because of how bad FPE looked on paper to guys who knew better about how cartridges actually performed in the field. Try answerin' my question about the 480 and 30-30 with the same FPE figures. According to your beloved FPE figures, they kill the same. Is this true? I'm quite certain you have little to no field experience save with a couple of guns. Don't worry, your trophy is safe...............
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"According to your beloved FPE figures, they kill the same."
Yes, I'd say they are pretty much alike in their "thumpability."
I've been hunting for over 40 years with probably over 100 different rifles and pistols not to mention bows. You haven't posted anything that I didn't know in the 1970s. Inventing theories to prove your point is something I haven't resorted to. The .30-30 carbine is more powerful than a .44 Magnim revolver.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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And, the 7mm Remington Magnum rifle is more powerful than the .30-30 carbine.
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I didn't invent the theories, guys with WAY more field experience than I did. However, I believe in them cuz I've killed chit with 204's to 50 cals and have seen first hand what each one does. Equating a 30-30 to a 480 that is over 1.5x the size and shooting bullets weighing twice as much is not only a joke, it's total horsechit. How you could consider them equal in "thumpability" amazes me. The only conclusion I can draw is that you've just never experienced it and are talkin' out your azz................
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It's called ballistics. It's not based on a theory. It's based on facts.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Ballistics takes into consideration a lot more than just ft./lbs.
BTW - is, or is not, the 7mm Remington Magnum more powerful than the .30-30?
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The 30-30 must be the deadliest SOB out there, considering it's more powerful than the far bigger, but slower 44mag, and also more powerful than the slightly smaller, yet way faster 7-08............... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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No, the .30-30 is about the smallest useful (it's very useful)rifle cartridge for deer sized game. The .44 Magnum isn't "bigger" than the .30-30, it's almost the same when it comes to harvesting animals. I'll never own another 7mm-08, nor any other 7mm cartridge (unless it were the 7X30 Waters for varmits.) Just because it's fired out of a short barrel, doesn't make a pistol cartridge Thor's hammer. Most can barely keep up with rifles that are shunned by the average "gotta have the latest fad cartridge" deer hunter. Like fishing lures, the cartridges invented in the last 50 years are for catching a hunter's pocketbook. They don't do anything new, and in most instances aren't nearly as good as the .30-06.
Nearly all gun writers are on somebody's payroll. That's what they do, sell guns to the unsuspecting.
Last edited by Swampman1; 01/20/07.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Is, or is not, the 7 Rem. Mag more powerful than the .30-30?
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This guy takes the cake, likes Elmer Keith, but nothing of what he believed in..........I can hear them starting to engrave the trophy..................
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The old "power is power regardless of diameter and weight theory" don't look so good now, does it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> According to you, both would kill the same. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I beg to differ............... No, they should not be the same, although they may. As I said, the mechnaincs of energy transfer come into play.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Still waiting on the "is the 7RM more powerful than the .30-30" question...
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Campfire Outfitter
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And, the 7mm Remington Magnum rifle is more powerful than the .30-30 carbine. By a mile.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Am waiting for Swampman1's response, in particular, since he has unequivocally stated that nothing under .30 caliber is adequate for deer hunting, and that the .30-30 has the minimum power adequate for deer hunting.
So, Swampman1, is the 7RM more powerful than the .30-30?
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The old "power is power regardless of diameter and weight theory" don't look so good now, does it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> According to you, both would kill the same. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I beg to differ............... No, they should not be the same, although they may. As I said, the mechnaincs of energy transfer come into play. And which you would you say would visibly transfer more energy (knockdown power), the larger projectile or the smaller one? Go on, it's okay, you can say it......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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.44 Mag from a handgun verus a .30-30? .480 Ruger versus a .30-30? Hardcast to jacketed? Exits wounds to wounds with no exits? Apples to oranges?
How about comparisons where the mechanics of energy transfer are more similar?
Like a .44 Mag pistol versus a .44 Mag carbine. I have both and will take the carbine every time when something needs thumping RIGHT NOW. Why? More energy. And I like the .444 Marlin even more when it comes to thumping power. Same reason, more energy.
Or a .480 Ruger vs a 40,000 CUP .45-70 load? For thumping purposes I'll take the somewhat smaller diameter but much more powerful .45-70 in a long gun.
Or a some .45-70 loads, a 300g hardcast at 1167fps and 904fpe and a 460g hardcast at 1812fps and 3353fpe. For sheer killing power I'll take the 460g/3353fpe load even though the 300g/904fpe load will out-penetrate it in waterjug tests (11+ versus 9). Of course the 300g bullet fails to transfer all its energy while the 460g does a complete energy transfer.The advantage goes to the 460g by at least 2449fpe and probably closer to 3000fpe. Clearly, penetration by itself is not the ultimate measure of bullet performance - far from it in fact.
Back to th e.44 Mag and .30-30, if forced to choose I'll happily take the .30-30 so long as I get to choose the bullet, and a 150g TSX FN or 170g Partition RN will do nicely.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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You're makin' this way more complicated than it is...............Assume bullets types are the same, cast in both, solid in both, JSP in both, whatever, it don't matter for what we're talking about. Assume the bullet type a constant and carry on.............
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And which you would you say would visibly transfer more energy (knockdown power), the larger projectile or the smaller one? Go on, it's okay, you can say it......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That would depend on a number of factors. I''ve shot coyotes with a .22-250 and a .44 Mag and will take the .22-250 every time. Tried to dispatch a downed coyote with my .44 Mag Super Redhawk using a 240g Speer JSP at 1519fps. The distance was about 4 feet, muzzle to dog. The first two shots put holes through its lungs and every time it breathed air came out the holes and turned to steam in the cold morning air. I finally gave up and put one in its head. Big holes ae nice but they are not the only answer.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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You're makin' this way more complicated than it is...............Assume bullets types are the same, cast in both, solid in both, JSP in both, whatever, it don't matter for what we're talking about. Assume the bullet type a constant and carry on............. The same? As in 300g hardcast and 460g hardcast? Or the same bullet in .44 Mag pistol, .44 Mag carbine and .444 Marlin? Hey, I'm not the one that started comparing apples to oranges.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/20/07.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Neither am I, that was your buddy Swamprat...............
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"Is the 7RM more powerful than the .30-30?"
I have no confidence in any of the sub-.308s other than for use on varmit class animals where recovery isn't an issue. The .243 is an excellent varmit cartridge as are most of the centerfire .22s. I would give up deer hunting if restricted to the 7RM.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Yes or no will work here........................
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"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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pretty weak....................
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I someone like your dad gives you a 7RM then it's fine to use it, maybe for sentimental reason you should. Why anyone would buy a 7RM, a .280, or a .270 is beyond me. They are pretty weak!
I'd choose the .30-30 or the .30-06 over any of them in a New York second. Of course this thread is actually about another newly invented cartridge designed to part the naive from their pocket book.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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All the cartridges you call pretty weak are more powerful than the 30-30, but we've already been down this road and crashed.................
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Yes, we have. I base my opinions on field experience. I've have no real use for the "needle guns."
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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What state do you live in?
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Campfire Kahuna
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So, the 7RM is less powerful than the .30-30 Winchester?
A round that can deliver a 175 gr. bullet at 2800 fps and 3200 ft./lbs. of energy, is LESS powerful than a round that can deliver a 170 gr. bullet at 2200 fps and 1800 ft./lbs.?
Where on earth if you learn numbers?
You base your opinions on ONE instance, as you have stated, and discount literally THOUSANDS of other instances, ballistics, and the laws of physics.
You would give up hunting if restricted to the 7mm Rem. Magnum. Have you ever used one?
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Forget it VA, 'tis a lost cause.................
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"You would give up hunting if restricted to the 7mm Rem. Magnum. Have you ever used one?"
Yes, a Browning A-Bolt.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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How about the rest of the question? You know, the numbers part?
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The inconsistent bullet performance of the "needle guns" makes them unsuitable for game that needs to be recovered.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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That is a bullet problem, not a caliber issue.
You can have inconsistent bullet results in anything, including the .30-30. Try various lots of Winchester SilverTips, for example. Definitely the same with the .30-06; where a 220 gr. RN will pencil right through deer without expanding and result in either multiple shots or lost deer. Happens ALL the time, until the hunter realizes that the 220 is built for moose not deer, and switches to 150 or 165s.
BTW - "needle gun"? The 7mm is a whopping 14/1000s of one inch smaller in diameter than the .30 caliber.
Now, please do explain how a .30-30 that delivers less than 60% of the energy of the 7mmRM is more powerful than the 7?
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Because the larger the bullet dia., the more consistent the bullet performance. Bullets that explode or pencil through transmit no energy.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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What is so MAGIC about the .308 diameter ?
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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SM1---what state do you live/hunt in?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Swampman1;
Diameter has nothing to do with consistent bullet performance. That is completely a function of the bullet design and manufacturing consistencies.
Mind addressing the math/physics part of the question?
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Bullets that explode or pencil through transmit no energy. Just means you are using the wrong bullet for that application , has absolutely NOTHING to do with diameter.
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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"What is so MAGIC about the .308 diameter ?"
The US Government spent milloins of dollars perfecting it. It works like it's supposed to. It's more accurate. There are no good bullets for deer sized game below the .308 mark. The are like AP or they blow up. OK for lung, brain, or spine shots. They won't break both front shoulders. Down here we don't want them to run off. It's too thick to find them without a dog.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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"What is so MAGIC about the .308 diameter ?"
There are no good bullets for deer sized game below the .308 mark. The are like AP or they blow up. OK for lung, brain, or spine shots. They won't break both front shoulders.
Frankly, you are so full of schit on that one, it's just ridiculous. Nope, the Nosler Partitions in .24 to 28 caliber don't work at all. Neither do the Barnes X or TSX. Or the TBBCs. That was one of the dumbest, most factually incorrect, and just ridiculous posts I've ever seen. Now, please discount the laws of physics and ballistics as stated above. You know, I can't quite figure you out yet.
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Just exactly WHEN did the US government spend $millions perfecting a HUNTING bullet ????????????
Always talk to the old guys , they know stuff.
Jerry Miculek
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Campfire Kahuna
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Am thinking he means they "perfected" the .30 caliber, as a caliber.
Funny... I thought the Europeans gave us the first military .30 (Krag).
And, funny, but the .30 caliber loses in almost all competitions now, except those specifically designed for it, to the 6.5s and 7s... and even as a long-range sniping tool to the .338s and .50s.
Still waiting on the refutation of ballistics and physics, though.
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"Still waiting on the refutation of ballistics and physics, though."
I answered that already.
I put 3 7mm Noslers right through the heart lung area of a small PA whitetail. I may as well have been shooting AP. It didn't even flinch. I had to shoot it in the head to kill it. No more 7mms for me thank you. I like humane kills, and the .308+ calibers do that well.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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No, you didn't.
You had one experience with a 7mm, on a small PA deer (running, too, right?), and you're now an expert on what does/does not work as far as calibers.
Now, how exactly is that .30-30 more powerful and better for hunting than the 7mm Rem. Mag, which you have not used on deer, when the .30-30 delivers less than 60% of the energy, via a 5 grain lighter bullet, of far lower sectional density?
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I've used the 7RM. It sucked too. The .30-30 kills them in their tracks. The 7mms and the .270s just don't. If they run off in these woods, the coyotes will have eaten them completely up in a few hours.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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[quote... There are no good bullets for deer sized game below the .308 mark. The are like AP or they blow up. OK for lung, brain, or spine shots. They won't break both front shoulders....[/quote]
If anyone doubted you're nuts, I'm sure they are no longer wondering.
A good sub-.30 bullet will easily break both shoulders of a deer. Or even an elk - I know because I've done it.
Had an X pencil through, but never had anything but a varmint bullet blow up. Took me over 20 years to recover a 160g Grand Slam from my 7mm Mag, but never had to track the animals I shot.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 01/21/07.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I think I've figured you out, finally.
Either you are so completely full of schit that you can't see through it to the truth, or you're the most stubborn, convinced of yourself, ignorant fool seen 'round here in a LONG time.
The .30-30 is a 100% DRT deer killer, but the 7RM, 7-08, and .270 suck so bad that they are only good for varmints?
Priceless....
If you've convinced yourself of that... right along with the Handi's superiority over any other single-shot, well, you've got one helluva world you're living in.
Trying to have an intelligent conversation with you, is like trying to talk dirty to a nun...
You've got good taste in wheelguns, and knives, but frankly, you don't know schit about ballistics or hunting rounds, and you simply refuse to even attempt to learn.
Sad, really...
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Campfire Kahuna
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Fellas, let's just stop feeding this f'kin' troll.
Either he's baiting us, or he's a complete idiot; one or the other, and neither is worth dealing with any longer.
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I simply refuse to use sub-.308 cartridges. My reasons are good enough for me. I'm biased against them based on my personal experience. I've been studying balistics for 44 years. When I see people using them hot rod needle guns, I realize they are young and inexperienced. They'll figure it out, or quit hunting most likely
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Campfire Kahuna
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No, you're just a fool.
Jack O'Connor was certainly young and inexperienced, as is everyone else who hunts with anything under .30 caliber. Pretty damned sure of yourself aren't you? The fact that literally MILLIONS of game animals fall to sub .30 caliber rounds yearly must not count either, huh?
Anyone who takes and defends a position such as the one that you've staked out for yourself, in stark defiance of laws of physics and ballistics, and incontrovertible evidence is not rational, nor are they intelligent enough to admit to themselves that they might be wrong. A pity...
If you understood anything about ballistics, you'd know you were wrong, on many points.
BTW - from the pics you put up, you aren't much older than 44. Damn impressive if you've been hunting and studying ballistics since literally in diapers.
Then again, you do whatever you think best; 'cause you're obviously too f'kin' hard-headed, stubborn, and ignorant to learn.
Damn shame...
You just won the honor of being right there with WETIBBE of being the only members on my ignore list. He got it by being and azzhole; you, by being ignorant. Quite an accomplishment and one that, somehow, twistedly, I am sure you'll be proud of...
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Jack O'Connor was on Winchester's payroll. He was a great salesman. I have been reading gun rags since I could read.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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Must have just recently completed the "hooked on phonics" program.........
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Campfire Kahuna
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2MG;
DFTFT....
Actually, in this case, it may be DFTDSMFT...
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Somehow I understood that completely.............
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Campfire Kahuna
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Figured you might............... Likely a pun there, or two....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Sorry guys, I gotta go with what I've seen with my own eyes.
"If what I say offends you, you should hear what I don't say."
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I'm thinking he was planted here by Rick to keep things interesting! Good one Rick, you got us! haha! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> BTW, I'll keep dropping these PA deer with my .257 Bob and 7mm-08.
Last edited by Teeder; 01/22/07.
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VaNimrod, you are the one baiting the swampster...I think he's having some fun with you. Who cares? There are plenty of .45/70 rifles on the shelf for him to use.
Good thing Marlin did not try to re-invent the .307 Win, because we all know that was a failure. This new one fills that critical void between the .30-30 Imp and the .300 Sav and the .307 win...whatever that is.
Lucky for me, I have a sweet vintage Savage 99 FWT in the original 150gr-at-2600fps caliber and am not in need of an upgrade. What a relief. If I need a new levergun it will probably be a Marlin, but I'll jump right to the .35 or .444 to avoid the tricky stuff.
Last edited by PAndy; 02/06/07.
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Just a quick update for those that are interested. I just spoke to customer service at Marlin. The lady I spoke to, said that the .308 Marlin express rifles will not be available until May or June. I dont know if I can wait that long. I was really hoping that they would be available a lot sooner.
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Swampman , glad to see you like Elmer Keith . And thats about all the good I can say for you !!!!
As far as gun writers are concerned Jack O'Conner was head and shoulders above Ol Elmer . And I liked Keith !!!!
As far as tiny PA whitetails are concerned , funny thing I killed thre PA WT's with 3 shots from a teeny tiny 260 REM .
In the state of VA I have killed the following numbers of whitetails ;
1 with the 243 WIN
27 with the 260 REM
1 with the 270 WIN
11 with the 7mm-08
14 with the 280 REM
26 with the 7mm REM MAG
9 with the 264 WIN MAG
6 with the 25-06
1 with the 270WSM
Took a pair of mulies in MT with 2 shots from the 7mm REM MAG .
Thats 98 deer and 91 were one shot kills .
First deer I ever saw killed was shot by my maternal grandfather with a 222 REM at 92 yards . One shot behind the ear and the deer dropped on the spot . Not that I advocate the 222 for deer . But that was his only high powered rifle and he used it for many many years on groundhogs . So shooting a deer in the head at 100 yards was no big deal for him .
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As far as the 308 Marlin Express is concerned I support it wholeheartdly !!!!!!
Sure there are lots of other things that can do the same thing .
SO WHAT !!!!
I own and shoot just about every caliber Marlin has ever chambered for and quite a few they haven't .
And you can bet your ass that I'll have one or two of the 308 Marlin Express rifles when they finally come out .
As far as brass is concerned , thats no big deal . If I have a couple hundred pieces I'll be able to wear out two rifles before the brass gives up the ghost .
Do I advocate speed demon rifles sure I do . I've loaded for most of the Ultra Mags , Short Ultra's , Win Short Mags and Win Super Shorts , as well as the 204 , 220 Swift , 264 WIN mag and 7mm STW .
But I also like old levers with light to medium cast bullet loads as well . I cast and load for many pre 1900 Marlin's . Matter of fact even killed a pair of WT does with pre 1900 rifles shooting my cast bullets this past season.
Anyway before I digress to much , what I'm trying to say is that I like them all .
And if Marlin see's fit to bring this new cartridge out , I'm gonna except it with open arms . Not because I feel I NEED it , but because I wanna play with it a bit .
Seems to me everyone should be glad Marlin is willing to try and do things to stay in buisness . Which is more then can be said for that now defunct company formerly of New Haven CT !!!
I'm sure there are quite a few that don't agree with me and so be it . But I also feel if you don't care for the cartridge , move on ! And for petes sake give the thing a chance to come out and be tried before you start to bad mouth it . But then again you shouldn't bad mouth it if you haven't personally tried it !!!!
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 125
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 125 |
I'm not going to say swampman1 is completely correct. Reasoning is somewhat off/incomplete IMO. But the heart of his argument I think is based around some pretty basic stuff.
1. As bullet velocity increases, smaller flaws in the bullet can cause the bullet to fail.
2. With most popular cartridges out there, as caliber goes up the velocity decreases.
3. A big bullet that fails will do more damage than a small bullet that fails.
So by deduction, smaller calibers will have a higher instance of bullet failure with little to no displacement of important stuff. Of course there are exceptions, sense thats a very generic statement. Not many people (if any) have enough experience with enough calibers to really make informed decisions except through deduction. You can use second hand information, but I wouldn't trust it much farther than deduction.
Thats how I look at things though. For general deer hunting I'll take a 120 grain bullet in a 250 savage (2600 FPS) over a 150 grain bullet in a .300 WM (3400 FPS) for deer. But put the same 150 grain bullet in a .300 savage (2600 FPS) and I would take it over either.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,117
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,117 |
the swampster ain't a bad guy.
he's just, uh, set in his ways ...
abiding in Him,
><>fish30ought6<><
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