Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Postmil/premil heartburn

Forgive me for venting-

Seems like such an obvious thing, doesn't it? We have all these nice tidy numbers to help us figure out what's what with Savages, but there's nothing tidy about Savage.

I must not have been paying attention in class, I thought it was 1 million when they changed barrel threads from flat to V. I'm going to make a WAG that it's "around" 1 million, is that right? Gun # 1,000,469 is still flat threads and won't work with the 99 22-250 barrel I sent to the smiths with it. Course how can you know unless you play, and pay?

I'm guessing all things around the 1960 transition are muddy water. Doesn't seem to be enough data to nail much down tight. Probably the same around World Wars, the other moves, etc, am I to assume???

Got a call from the buyer of the 1960 99E I sold a few weeks ago here.



He doesn't think the buttstock's legit. But here's the kicker- Assembly codes on the buttstock match the front of the receiver. Dimensionally it doesn't match up to later E models though, slimmer profile in the grip, and slightly shorter. But the codes are stamped on the end of the buttstock, indicating it's factory length. Should it match a later, and arguably different model E, being a transition/use-up-parts model? Aren't they their own animal by definition?

We both figure since the EG stopped in 1960 that an EG stock was used to make this E. If the EG stock had been completed, the checkering would have to be removed and the grip cap would have a filled hole. Yes and yes.

If it's not a legit E, what is it with matching number buttstock?

Rick has another rifle in that configuration. Might compare stock measurements?

As far as I know, this one is the only one with a metal butt, the rest plastic. How many of these are even known of?

I know Rick has one, and I have pictures of one in my sticky notes that has a forearm stud. Not sure if the pictures I have are of Rick's or not. It looks like it has a plastic buttplate like the E's with the rounded forearm. The rounded forearm serial number ones I have in my list are higher serial numbers than the 1 EG style - which is just over 968,000. The rounded forearms are close to and over 969,000.

This one is 967,xxx IIRC.

This thing is giving me some heartburn. I just don't get it.

Oh dear there goes my 300 savage barrel, sad, sad.

Sad for your 22-250 conversion also mate

Johno

"... I thought it was 1 million when they changed barrel threads from flat to V."

Not an easy item to check for most people. Makes data collection rather difficult. You will find barrels with the Chicopee address off and on to around 1,050,000 range. Were these all square? The F and DL used a tang safety receiver starting at 1,000,000. Did they all have "V" threads? The 1960 Model E used old receivers with pre-1,000,000 serials. Did they all have square threads? I would guess that they did but not positive. Anyone with data please pass it on. I'll be happy to add it to the spreadsheet.

As for your 1960-E(?)...

What Savage cataloged as the 1960-E and what they shipped was not exactly the same. It was to have the uncheckered EG forearm but most have an uncheckered F forearm.

They have all had the same butt stock with a plastic butt plate (flat cut on the back) and no grip cap. It not only had no grip cap but that area of the stock is cut different. The EG stock grip tapers to the cap and has an area that extends below the stock belly at the back of the grip. The 1960-E stock is cut higher to remove the back of the grip and the lip.

Your rifle butt stock appears to be an EG with no grip cap. It does have a hole(?)...is it threaded as if a grip cap was attached at one time? It also has a metal butt plate as on an EG. Neither the butt stock nor the EG style forearm is checkered.

Not the typical 1960-E profile, if that is what you want to fill a hole in your collection.

So if it is not the 1960-E then what is it? I don't know. We may never know. Given that the wood is code stamped to the receiver I think it probably was made and shipped that way. The serial falls in the middle of all the other 1960-E that I have data (12) on so probably not a first or last production thing. It has the same el-chippo rear sight as used on the 1960-E. Is it a one of a kind or will other turn up? Will have to wait on that question. Employees gun?

The 1960 catalog also lists the EG and R but I don't have any reliable data to verify that either were made in 1960. they both would have used the old receiver like the 1960-E. Maybe this was shipped as an EG...? Remember the "RT"?

Another Savage puzzle. Anyone with other ideas? I'd like to hear them.

Didn't JTC have the ability to verify the model of late 50's guns?

I know I've posted this before but here's an early 99E, serial 96 something or other, looks to be an uncheckered F forearm to me.

Was $500 way back then so I passed on it, would have bought it if I found it for that today.

John, the 22-250 project will just get a different donor receiver and you'll end up with your 300 barrel one way or another. It's gunna take a little longer

As for your 1960-E(?)...

What Savage cataloged as the 1960-E and what they shipped was not exactly the same. It was to have the uncheckered EG forearm but most have an uncheckered F forearm.

Good, so the forearm was as cataloged.

They have all had the same butt stock with a plastic butt plate (flat cut on the back)

This has the curved metal butt plate, but has the factory codes stamped on the end of the stock, so it hasn't been shortened or recut for a curved buttplate. I went over all this with the buyer beforehand.


and no grip cap. It not only had no grip cap but that area of the stock is cut different.

This one is as you say

The EG stock grip tapers to the cap and has an area that extends below the stock belly at the back of the grip. The 1960-E stock is cut higher to remove the back of the grip and the lip.

I don't have it in my hands to compare to an EG stock to see if it is cut higher, but if you look carefully at the photo Joe posted below, they look the same in the grip. One of the buyers concerns is that it is slimmer thru the grip than the later bulky 99E stock, the cheapo model we are all familiar with. This one looks exactly like the one Joe posted, slim in the grip. I would think if an EG buttstock had to be modified to use up parts to make this E model, that it would necessarily end up slim after removing checkering. That does not seem hard to understand.

Your rifle butt stock appears to be an EG with no grip cap. It does have a hole(?)...is it threaded as if a grip cap was attached at one time?

It has a filled hole, as if it had been drilled for a grip cap, but none installed.


It also has a metal butt plate as on an EG. Neither the butt stock nor the EG style forearm is checkered.

correct



Not the typical 1960-E profile, if that is what you want to fill a hole in your collection.

To the buyers credit, I missed the filled grip cap hole in my description. That was my oversight. The hole is an oddity, but the rest of the gun supports the 99E identification so I didn't think it a disqualifier. Everything else was fully discussed beforehand so the details were all known beforehand. But he has come to the conclusion that this is not a legit buttstock. I'm not sure how with buttstock and frame codes matching, and the serial number range falling right in with the 1960 99E.
Would someone find a 967,xxx serial number range rifle, take an uncheckered EG forearm and a modified, previously checkered EG buttstock, fit to the rifle, find the right sight, and fake the stampings all to produce an economy grade rifle? That's a very large stretch of a very active imagination in my mind. Could it have been done? I guess so. I guess that's what the buyer supposes?? Are there any other rifles known in the serial range 967,000-969,000 other than these 99E's?


So if it is not the 1960-E then what is it? I don't know. We may never know. Given that the wood is code stamped to the receiver I think it probably was made and shipped that way. The serial falls in the middle of all the other 1960-E that I have data (12) on so probably not a first or last production thing. It has the same el-chippo rear sight as used on the 1960-E. Is it a one of a kind or will other turn up? Will have to wait on that question. Employees gun?

This is a tough deal because it's either an E or it's not. If it's not it's a modified gun with the right serial number range and the right assembly code. If you fake a gun, it's to charge more for it. I got it for less than $400 a few years ago, so you be the judge on whether someone faked it.

The 1960 catalog also lists the EG and R but I don't have any reliable data to verify that either were made in 1960. they both would have used the old receiver like the 1960-E. Maybe this was shipped as an EG...? Remember the "RT"?

If it had been shipped as an EG, it would be a huge coincidence that the rear sight is correct for an E, the serial range fits into E range, the forearm has no checkering (as an EG would have for the last 20 years or so) or evidence that the forearm did have checkering at one time that was removed.

Another Savage puzzle. Anyone with other ideas? I'd like to hear them.

I don't buy for one second that this was ever built as anything other than a 1960E. Who takes a checkered EG and grinds the checkering off, finds a uncheckered forearm from decades before, the right rear sight, to make an economy grade rifle, and sell it for less than the original EG would have been worth??? The only way this makes any sense in any way is that Savage did this at the factory. To think anything else is fantasy land. IMHO.

Thanks for posting that Joe, that helps me on the grip shape. The buyer thinks this 99E is too slim in the grip. It looks exactly like the one you posted. Very helpful.

Hmmm. "Replacement buttstock doesn't have any numbers? Hand me those hand stamps, Roy."

I have a Chicopee barrel only (99F) in 250 with a 1-10 twist and V threads. Go figure. "Shouldn't be" but there it is.

I think it was Norm that said that he's seen 99E's with both types of threads, flat and V. I could be wrong on that. Norm?

I would bet you are correct that the 967000 range 99E's have flat threads.

The rifle #1,000,4xx I sent as a donor rifle for the 22-250, is, maybe, a 99E, so it would make sense that it would have the old receiver with the lever safety and flat threads. But to be honest, I just don't remember what I sent the gunsmith for sure. I'll check today.

My WAG, again, is that all the tang safety rifles will have V threads. Logic tells me that, but who knows??? Not me.

Since I found one 99E with both an old ground off serial number on the bottom and a new serial number stamped on the side, I am of the camp that the post 1960 99E's were using leftover receivers from the pre 1960 guns. That is JMO, but it makes sense that Savage would not produce two types of receivers on two sets of machines simultaneously after 1960, just to be able to offer an economy model. What economy would there be in that duplication if not using up old receivers? As such, I'm guessing, again, that the 99E's with lever safeties should be flat thread receivers. Again, who knows besides a gunsmith that's been paying attention and keeping track? I'll find out what I sent the gunsmith for the donor #1,000,4xx.

Rick, as always, you are a wealth of information, and I thank you and all the rest for your help in this matter.

After reading all this I really don't think someone would have modified it to be an E, makes no sense.

And even if J.C. can letter this gun what would it come back as? If the grip cap is missing but there is a hole there for one I'm wondering what it got logged as? Do they get logged into the ledgers when the gun is accepted or prior to that?

That's only one piece of the larger picture. The serial range is correct, the rear sight is correct, the age/patina is correct, and the rifle sold for less than $400. Not worth the effort to fake a rifle then give it away for less than it would be worth if left original.
AND for the record, I posted photos of this gun right after I bought it asking what it was, Rory can point you to that thread.

SO PUT TO REST THE IDEA THAT OLD TINKERBELL ROY DID IT!

Sorry brother Roy I not be guilty of that one . have 2 E s now and sold 2 but none apart.

I think you are right ,came from factory like that.

I have not seen a 800-900- thousand gun up here ,, but I don't own them all either

norm