Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Sticky bullet syndrome

I loaded some 223 rounds a couple of years ago. 26.5gr BLc2 under a 55gr FMJ, CCI small rifle primer. This is at least 1 grain less than the lowest book max that I've seen. In some cases it's 1.5gr less. When I tested it at the range it never showed any signs of pressure. That was in cool spring weather. Fast foward a couple of years and suddenly those loaded rounds are occasionally blowing primers. Hot summer day. I thought maybe I'd over loaded them so I pulled 40 of them down and weighted the charges. All were right at 26.5gr. I remembered about sticky bullets so I ran some back through the seating die. Sure enough every now and then I'd get a distinct "click" as the bullet released from the case. So, the question is how do I avoid having the bullets stick in the case for ammo that's going to sit in storage for a couple of years. Surely the ammo that the military uses sits longer than 3 years and they don't seem to have this problem. Surely they don't underload the ammo to the point where it wouldn't be a problem. Do they? Maybe lube the case mouths? Is BLc2 that temp sensitive?

Moly?

Kind of surprised you're getting stickum, especially in Etna. Not exactly hot and humid there unless you have a humidifier or something too close to your ammo stash.

Given my experience playing fixit with lots of long-tightened metal fasteners, including brass furniture fittings and other whatnot, it's common for many unlubricated interfaces to take a set and not want to break loose, even if they weren't screwed in farmer-tight, even if clean when first installed. Stainless on stainless seems to like to do that, not just brass.

Any sign of green? Are the cases virgin brass? Cleaned wet?

I have never ever dosed necks with a mica brush, but I would think the mica was recommended for so long and still is for precisely this phenomenon, not just because the mica helped the expander ball do its job. If your necks were bare metal on bare clean bullets, odds are good there's a "cold weld" or like means like.

Someone here mentioned a while back that you can do precisely what you are already doing -- popping the bullets with a hit on the seater. Or, you can partially pull and re seat with a nice collet.

No green, not humid, not tumbled, might try mica.

Thanks!

Doesn't a lot of military ammo use some kind of asphalt glue for waterproofing? I seem to recall reading about how to clean it off the bullets pulled from de-milled ammo. I always thought the case expanded to release the bullet before it started on it's way.

Not trying to stir any pots, just wondering if there's another explanation.

I used powdered mica for years to ease the expander, but swithched last year to a kit that uses ball bearings to apply the lube. No more mica clumps.

I'd try busting a few loose with a puller, then reseating and firing the doctored ones at the same temperature to see if that fixes the issue.

Were the cases clean virgins or tumbled clean when loaded?

Or were they once-fired with the soot still in them?

BL-C2 and 335 are very close cousins I believe. There might be a clue to your pressure there.

I'm dense. You'll have to explain.

blc-2 nd H335 are known for wild pressure swings due to temperature.

Pappy, there is still a sealant on most milsurp ammo. It comes off with mineral spirits just fine, follow that with a splash of lacquer thinner and you're good.
I've stuffed better bullets in pulled cases with the goop still on the neck, it's not sticky enough to cause problems with the powder recharge, and the first shot disappears the goo.
But the black goo does in fact prevent any kind of metal bonding or galling, especially if environmental conditions are bad.
I might be wrong about this, but brass is a pretty soft metal, as is aluminum, and both will easily "gall" (adhere on the sliding interface) without a lot of force, and it may well be that even normal neck tension is near the gall threshold for brass and copper bullet jackets. Otherwise, you could pull that baby-smooth bullet out of that baby-smooth virgin match brass neck and see no scratches.
Furthermore, metals are not always environmentally static. They can "age" just sitting there. One classic example of that was a die-cast alloy called Zymac or something, a toy train company used it because it cast GREAT and had terrific self-lubing properties, great for axle and gear shafts.
But after a couple years, it would start to crack out and fall apart. Killed the company.
Keep in mind that the galling response is not always bad. Any nut and bolt and washer combo will leave marks on the mating faces if the fastener is cranked to the proper tension.
For example, when I shoot scope ring screws, the proper torque is about where the screw head mating surface "pings." It is okay if the mating surface pings (once is enough), it's the threads that you don't want to have ping on you.

Come to think of it, I'd like someone with lead bullet experience to tell if they ever tried "dry" lead bullets and whether those welded themselves either to the case or the bore when fired? Anyone?

FIRST off- I am FAR, FAR from being any 'expert' but I have experienced "cold weld" this past Fall getting ready for Deer Season. I've been loading for a lot of yrs and THIS was my FIRST experience with it.

These were loaded 270 W rounds with powder & brass that had been loaded 2-3 yrs or so. I had the SAME symptoms that the OP described.

1. Dirtfarmer on the Fire asked if bumping the bullets .001 would break the 'weld'. I Don't Know, maybe someone else will.

2. I pulled the bullets UP a little and RE-seated to the proper depth. No more problems. I hunted those rounds and killed a few deer with them this past WT Ark deer season.


Another member of the "fire" PMed me and suggested the use of... "Imperial" sizing wax... on the bottom half of the bullet before seating. He said he had NOT HAD any more problems.

Cold Weld is real. It's proper name is 'galvanic corrosion'


Jerry

Cold welding is real, but it is not galvanic corrosion (which is another thing entirely). It is generally called diffusion bonding, and it does have some industrial applications. I remember doing some work with it about 30 years ago, diffusion bonding thin sheets of corrugated material together to make a sort of honeycomb for a miniature heat exchanger (can't remember what alloy now, but I vaguely recall it being copper-based). What happens is, if you have two clean surfaces in intimate contact, under the right conditions, diffusion from one into the other and vice versa can occur, eventually making a strong joint.

It makes sense that something like sizing wax would stop this from occurring. It would effectively make for a barrier to the diffusion.

IIRC Hatcher mentioned something like it in his Notebook.

Okay Dan, I'll concede because I don't profess to be an expert.

The sizing wax recommended came from Mule Deer -indirectly to me. I haven't used it yet but plan to get some.

Jerry

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to come across as a smartar*e.

The other thing which would probably work about as well to prevent it is sheer laziness. I don't tumble cases, and I don't clean the lube (One-Shot) out of the necks before charging them and seating bullets. The accumulated powder residue and lube must be serving as a barrier to diffusion bonding, because I certainly haven't seen any sign of it in my reloads in the past few decades

Oh and the brown patina on my cases has some small effect as a preventer of corrosion too - that is my story and I'm sticking to it .

Both you and Mr. Skinner raise interesting points. I still have it in my hard head that the neck opens from pressure, releasing its grip on the bullet before the bullet goes forward, the same way it's released from a crimped or staked case. This is why (I think) it's so important to check the OD of the necks of loaded rounds to be certain there's room for the neck to open. It's also entirely possible that I'm completely full of crap. Wouldn't be the first time!

My best guess is still that the temperature is the real problem here, which could be proved by reseating the bullets as above and testing the loads under the same conditons the problem appeared under.

The OP's charges are under max, but his other components may vary from the book loads enough to put him on the edge. That would be exacerbated, I believe, by the limited volume of the .223 case.

I think we're to the point here where JB needs to step in and straighten us all out.

Dan - IF- IF you think I was being sarcastic, I promise I wasn't. I was simply yielding to your knowledge. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Jerry

BLC2 is part of the issue I'd be willing to bet.

The other you'd have to coat teh bullet or case somehow...

For long term storage, I load thousands of rounds with the bullet not seated very deep, then reseat when I need to shoot the ammo.

Also, in my experience if you have not annealed the necks, and store the ammo where it can heat and cool, IE not in conditioned air space, you will end up with neck cracks either before or after firing.

What is JB comment RE sizing wax vs controlling neck tension for accuracy?

Pappy,
Regarding the neck expanding before the bullet starts to move. Even if that's the way it really works, the fused neck to bullet joint requires more pressure to expand to release the bullet than if they weren't fused. That additional pressure is what's causing the problem.

I didn't think I cleaned these cases before I loaded them but I might have. Since I likely got them from Brassman Brass .com, John may have sent me clean cases to start.

I'm going to try and shoot some here in cool weather again and see what happens BUT I've already run them back through the seater so I've removed any chance of really learning anything.

Besides imperial sizing wax, what other lube would keep this from happening. 100% spray silicone? I have some of that on the shelf in the shop for other purposes.

S R M - In order from the OP.

My incident occurred using IMR 7828...
Blc2 & H 335 etc are known to be temp. 'sensitive' but 'cold weld' involves the jacket & brass case.

1. Raised pressure-- My same loads have been used for years with good case life. It was NOT hot in Oct as I checked my scope and incurred cold weld.

2.Same here - WW case--IMR 7828 either a 'click' or more pressure required to break the bullet loose.

3. Rost suggestion about seating out farther FOR storage and then finish seating before shooting ought to work. Good Idea.

4. I don't know about lube the case mouth - might work.
Imperial sizing wax was suggested to me but I haven't loaded any since.

Just trying to help from what 'little' experience I've had with Cold Weld.

Jerry

Never clean the inside of the necks has worked for me.

The "graphite" powder residue seems to prevent the problem.

I would assume that shooting moly-coated bullets would also work.