Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Professional dog trainer - Worth it?

^^^^^^


THIS is also all good advice.


On the E-collar I will back pedal, but only slightly. Properly used they are THE thing for aversion training.

By this I mean snake-breaking...and it should be done by someone other than the owner. It only takes a minute...literally.

Another use I saw for it was shaping a "straight" trailing bear hound. Don't want the dog chasing deer, elk etc......so the trainer/owner took him to smoking fresh elk tracks and turned him loose without saying a word. Dog of course hit it and took off on the track.
Again without saying a word ( thus to disassociate himself from the collar) he zapped the dog, and it stopped immediately, whereupon he ran up to it, sympathetic as he could be... " Did that old elk hurt you????" and the dog of course was all over him.. " Yeah Dad! it was awful!!!"


" I'll bet you don't want to do that again!!!"....." No Dad...it was terrible!"




But Battue was spot on when he noted the folks in the video had an insight into dogs that few have. We call it the "X" factor, cause you either have it or you don't. It can't be taught...especially as it pertains to the big, hard dogs.

And he was right about a proper trainer having birds on hand. It makes a HUGE difference.

This book or video is great, its basic and down to earth.

http://www.amazon.com/Game-Dog-Retriever-Waterfowl-Training/dp/0525939423

Training your own dog can be very rewarding, just remember its supposed to be fun for both of you.



Lots of birds help.

Just walked over to get a quick snack. The young fellow got a reinforcement of the hup and stay drill. Yesterday we thru the dummy for 5-8 throws, we heard the whistle to stop. We saw the raised hand to do the same. Someone got too far out-he was pushed too far, but didn't know it-and he heard the recall buzzer on the E-Collar and his mind said opps, or damnit. Or he did know it and said that CS, I don't know which.

Except for one Robin, who he kicked out of the yard and a couple Crows that mocked him up in the trees, that was the extent of the Birds we got into. Not enough.

I'm trying my hand at training a pointing dog for the first time. Though I've not considered sending him to a trainer as I'm just too cheap, I appreciate the insight/info posted in this thread. I know my biggest problem is being too gruff with Hank. I need to work on easing up on my body language and voice. It's not much of a problem in 'training' as I'm conscience of it, but house messes and regular troubles I let my frustration show too much.

Again, thanks for the info and I hope to glean some more.

Watch the video posted above, and again notice, no one raises their voice with the dogs. Its not necessary.


As frustration builds so it seems does voice volume. What i always tell my students when you catch yourself doing this, stop, change your body language and whisper your request to the dog.


You will often be amazed...

You will have more success, and fun doing 15 "training" sessions two or three times per day than one, one hour session.

And some days you will be "off" and some days your dog will act like you two are strangers, on these days, just go fishing it will be far less frustrating for the both of you.

^^^^^^^^^^^



Sage Wisdom




And the training "sessions" can and should be 2-3 minutes. Literally.

And as frustrating as some days are, there will be more and more days that will truly amaze you, at just how much dogs are capable of learning.

Once they "get it" they become obsessed with doing what pleases you.
That's when you two start thinking as one, and the fun starts.

I even taught my dog to schit on command.

....and don't be too hard on them. For the most part they are giving you all they have and then some.

Pointers are immensely harder than flushers to guide them correctly. The flushers, especially the English Springers and English Cockers are easy in comparison. However, they are the jokers of the hunting breeds and why I have thrown my coat in with theirs.

I will also have to put in my two cents in favor of sending a dog to a trainer. Some people are poor teachers, whether for dogs or people but they are capable of maintaining a level of skill in the pupil. It makes absolutely no sense for them to teach another creature so sending the dog off to be trained and then taking over afterward is the only way they can have a well trained dog. My former vet is such a person, she can do basic obedience but the rest is beyond her.

Another reason to send a dog to a pro is when the owner hits a snag or a plateau they cannot overcome. This may be due to a lack of experience, knowledge, perception, or observation but it is still something that may need a pro to get past.

A second type who would need the services of a trainer is the one who has limited or no access to training grounds or birds. As mentioned, one needs birds to train a gun dog and this can be very difficult for those living in urban or suburban areas. Couple that with a lack of land on which to train and sending a dog to a trainer may be the only means of getting a good working dog.

And this does not include the cost and space needed to keep birds. I have about $250 into my pigeon pen and much of that was built with scrap lumber and leftovers from other places. The pigeons were "free" as I caught them myself but food is still about $1 a week for a dozen birds plus electricity in the winter to keep the water dish open.

The quail pen is roughly half the price for one large enough for a half dozen birds but the birds run $5 rack. Food is cheaper at about 50 cents a day. I average three dozen a summer due to losses which can be pricey to some.

Pheasants run $6 each for worn out breeding hens and I do a couple dozen of them in a summer. Roosters or hens not past their prime are half to double that price. Ducks are $2.75 apiece as chicks and will average $1 a week over their life for food as will pheasants. The pen for the ducks and pheasants is also costly as it needs to be relatively large and fairly sturdy to keep out predators. The netting to put over the top is probably the most expensive part of the whole pen.

The cost and space needed can be daunting for many. The price to keep birds could go down for more birds but this is all the more birds I need for my purposes. I moved from in town to some acreage for the sole reason to have room for birds. I could find land to run on but keeping birds was frowned on by the city fathers. I moved before they got around to ticketing me.

Then there are the people who have great demands on their time, whether work or family. 10-15 minutes a couple times a day is fine for obedience but setting up even a very basic field exercise will take up what is has been recommended and only get longer for more involved scenarios. I train on my own property and the initial set up of two traps will take closer to an hour from grabbing the first one to putting away the last including catching the birds from the pen. And that is for only a single run, add on about half hour for a second run. This can be difficult to do for many as this is not a once and done proposition.

Though I have acreage, I lack a place for water work. I have to pack up the dogs and equipment and travel 4 miles to get to a place I can do some basic retrieves. And that is providing it is not being used by others for fishing or picnicking or that others don't show up. For more involved work I make a day of it at a buddy's place (he makes his living training dogs) or lease a place if I have a deadline to meet. The former is 70 miles one way, the other runs $25 for three hours.

I much prefer working my own dogs but also recognize it can be a difficult task for many. One can get just so far working in their yard- eventually one needs to get into the field under controlled conditions to go to the next levels. For those who do not have the time or access to get to these levels a pro trainer may be needed.

Oh, as fore collars, I am a huge fan of them. They are an immense help for corrections at a distance and are the best tool to break a dog from unwanted behavior.

The term "burning" was in vogue 40 years ago when I first began use of an ecollar as that is what collars did. One level of shock-high- on continuous was all that was available. It's been close to 30 years since I've heard the term "burn" used in this context as technology, knowledge, and understanding has progressed since those early days.

Of course, they can be used incorrectly and cause harm but that is no different than with any other tool used for training including one's voice. Knowing the correct use of a tool is the key to getting the desired results whether it is a saw, wrench, or ecollar.

Which tells me you don't know schit about bird dogs! I can tell you the top Brittanys in the country don't get put on the ground without their e-collars and garmins, with the exception of trials, where e-collars aren't allowed. My Brittanys don't break at the shot for a reason, and they don't get put on the ground without their e-collars and Garmins (with the exception of trials).

Good Pros are worth their weight in gold, especially if you send your dog to one of their summer camps. A dog will most likely see more wild birds at one summer camp then they will their entire life as a hunting dog.

Did you miss the part about the one and ONLY bird dog Ive owned?

But dogs are pretty much dogs, difference being the gun dogs are probably more eager to please than their more self-centered shepherding counterparts....which makes them more receptive to inducive rather than compulsive training.



And no, I haven't hung out with the field trial gun dog training crowd....



Because...Field Trials to me don't reflect field conditions..


and I want nothing to do with people who wont put a dog on the ground without an E-collar.


I shied away from people who train compulsively years ago and have stayed away.I work with big, hard, strong willed dogs on occasion and have managed to do it without ever even wanting an E-Collar.


Your Mileage obviously varies.



I was wondering how long this would take.....

How is it that trials don't mimick field conditions? The only people I've ever heard say that are people who have never been to a trial.

Field trial dogs are as far from hunting, family friendly and a child's pets as dogs can possibly be.

"Running big" "remote controlled" "high energy dogs" are not what all bird hunters want or need.

E collars are mandatory when your dog is hunting in another zip code than the one you are in. We call them picture dogs, you know, the ones that you keep pictures of in your truck, so you can show every one you see what the dog your are searching for looks like.

If your dog is out side of whistle range then he is not hunting with or for you.

Field trials are both entertaining and borderline animal abuse, and I see very little connection to actually training a bird dog and training a field trail dog.

To each their own, but lets not confuse the two.

Another post from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

If you want a good hunting dog you need a good place to run/train your dog with lots of birds. You can do obedience training in your yard but field work is where a dog is made. If you can't provide this then you may want to carefully consider a professional.

My spots for training now have houses and apartments on them which is one reason I no longer have a dog.

The whole world ain't Kansas there ToTo!

Tracking collars, on a Britney really? GSP's of course, mostly a necessity just because of field trial breeding programs. A good GSP's can smell a humming bird fart at half a mile in a 30 mph cross wind, but very few hunters have any where the time, property or know with all to ever make a hunting dog out of one. They are very photogenic though.

For Up land bird hunting, and water fowling there is no place for high energy, big running dogs, there's a stark difference in the two, and the training required for either to be good at what they do.

The fastest way to turn Joe Sixpack into an avid golfer, is to have him and a couple buddies go bird hunting with his 2.5 year old super field trail trained gun dog.

Again, You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what your talking about. This year my "trial" dog ran off horse the last day of AA Nationals on Saturday. On Sunday we were killing wild pheasants and quail over her in NE off foot, and by Tuesday she was laying in my 2 1/2 year olds lap watching cartoons on the couch, after she slept in bed with my wife and I. Off horse she will crest the horizon going away at 500+ yards. Off foot she probably won't hit 200, unless your in the prairies. I always get a kick out of people saying trial dogs and hunting dogs are so much different. Ive hunted over a ton of trial dogs, and couldn't tell any difference between them and the pure hunting dogs off foot. Of course, the dogs I hunted over were all trained the exact same way. The only people I ever heard say that trial dogs are wild and crazy in the field, are the ones who have never actually hunted over a trial dog. Everyone who has hunted over both realize trial dogs learn the game.